posted
I was curious what the differences are between Lyme and MS symptoms?
To my knowledge their symptoms are very similar. Is there any key differences in sx that would occur in these two?
I have not yet been dx'd with Lyme, but supposebly have had MS ruled out with NEG MRI's and Normal exams. I'm still concerned though.
I've heard that MS symptoms aren't usually body wide and are not constantly changing. Where as lyme tends to come and go and symptoms change from day to day or even hour to hour? IS this true?
How can I diffentiate the two symptoms wise?
Thanks.
Posts: 4 | From CO | Registered: May 2009
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posted
I forgot to mention i have TONS of lyme symptoms. Been told I have TOO MANY fluctuating symptoms for it to be MS? Have had 2 pos bands on reg. blot, but not enough for a dx by reg physcian.
Thanks in advance.
Posts: 4 | From CO | Registered: May 2009
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Leelee
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19112
posted
I don't know the answer to your question, but I am curious too.
Is MS hereditary? No one in my family has it and I definitely have Lyme, but I wonder if MS tends to run in families.
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
No, I don't beleive MS is hereditary. Although one will have a slight chance of getting it if someone close in family has it.
Posts: 4 | From CO | Registered: May 2009
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posted
My opinion is that the diseases are both Lyme. I was dx with MS in 1999 and with Lyme on 2004. The sx are the same, your dx just depends on whether you do to a neurologist (MS) or a Lyme Doc (Lyme).
My original MRI reading from 1999 said "demylenating disease lesions, probable MS", a 2008 MRI reading said "demylenating disease lesions, either MS or Lyme". So the guys reading the MRIs are at least getting educated.
Just keep in mind that Lyme is treatable. MS is not. For MS, they load you up on interferons to disable your immune system and make you feel better until you get so bad that you are hospitalized.
My disgnosing doc for MS said that she arrived at the dx by analyzing my sx and then eliminating all other possibilities via tests, leaving only MS. This fits in with what I later learned - MS is a "garbage can" diagnosis. There is no concrete test for MS, and no known cause or cure.
Lyme really sucks but at least there is hope.
Posts: 252 | From NJ USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Alv
Unregistered
posted
OK..I will include my opinion!
People do not realise and have not chanse to know that RICKETISA that is SO epidemic...could be as well involved.
MOST have moth involved.Ticks cary LYME and RIKETSIA and the drugs that can address lyme and bart address ricketsia as well.
My last conversation with A TOP homepathic XXXX in EUROPE was.The last findings is tht we see RICKETSIA...is the cause of MS and LYME tops it off and could be present as well.
I tested myself a few people WHILE I was in EUROPE.They were strugling on answer and they would think for things and forget.
THEY HAD no LYME.They had Bart and RICKETSIA.
As people treat lyme and BART no body goes afte RICKETISA.
I have posted here that BART, RICKETSIA, ehrlichia...etc ..a link that links them
Most miss to find that they carry this infections as well .
only a severe case of it and a few lyme bugs it it will cause lyme to activate in the brain ..so MY OPINION can be both at the same time..
I am not a doctor and I am just sharing my opinion.You can draw the conclusion yourself...TEST are not reliable on all tick born illness.You can get any positive but that does not mean you do not have other infections as well.
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
MS AND LYME: The DVD about lyme and MS at www.unh-lyme.org may be of interest to you. It's $15, and proceeds go to support Dr. S's research. Timaca
Betty's suggested POSTING GUIDELINES . many of us have neuro lyme where we can NOT read long solid block text and be able to comprehend and read it as is.
please edit your post by CLICKING PAPER/PENCIL ICON to right of your name. that opens up BOTH subject line and body text.
now please break up your WORDY SENTENCES into one sentence paragraphs. Then hit ENTER KEY ``TWICE`` after each paragraph; we need that space for comprehension.
then go to left hand corner and mark box to receive ALL REPLIES, and click EDIT SEND
we thank you for helping us; otherwise, we will SOB, SCROLL ON BY, since we can't read to help you. If I see posts like this, I SOB them; to hard on me. ------------------------------------------------------
People seeking doctors might be able to get help from their state online information and support group. Nearly 3,400 people belong to state groups. Some of the groups are small but more than 20 of them have 50 or more people and seven have over 100.
The groups are moderated and you have to apply. Most don't allow doctor names, but once on the group, you can ask for doctors in a certain area and ask people to email you privately. *******************************************
This explains the medical politics around lyme WHY you need an ILADS-educated or ILADS-member LLMD (and there are also some ILADS-member LL NDs (naturopathic doctors):
CONTROVERSY CONTINUES TO FUEL THE "LYME WAR" -(author's details at link)
As two medical societies battle over its diagnosis and treatment, Lyme disease remains a frequently missed illness. Here is how to spot and treat it.
Excerpts:
Meet the players
The opponents in the battle over the diagnosis and treatment of Lyme disease are the Infectious Diseases Society of America (IDSA), the largest national organization of general infectious disease specialists, (and)
and the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS), an organization made up of physicians from many specialties. ( www.ilads.org )
ILADS, by contrast, asserts that the illness is much more common than reported, underdiagnosed, easier to contract than previously believed, difficult to diagnose through commercial blood tests, and difficult to treat, (especially)
especially when treatment is delayed because of commonly encountered diagnostic difficulties ( http://www.ilads.org/guidelines.html - Accessed April 6, 2007). . . .
" . . .To treat Lyme disease for a comparable number of life cycles, treatment would need to last 30 weeks. . . ."
`` . . .Patients with Lyme disease almost always have negative results on standard blood screening tests and have no remarkable findings on physical exam, so they are frequently referred to mental-health professionals for evaluation.
"...If all cases were detected and treated in the early stages of Lyme disease, the debate over the diagnosis and treatment of late-stage disease would not be an issue, and devastating rheumatologic, neurologic, and cardiac complications could be avoided..."
. . . * Clinicians do not realize that the CDC has gone on record as saying the commercial Lyme tests are designed for epidemiologic rather than diagnostic purposes, and a diagnosis should be based on clinical presentation rather than serologic results.
- Full article at link above, containing MUCH more detailed information. -===
Co-infections (other tick-borne infections or TBD - tick-borne disease) are not discussed in the Savely article due to space limits. Still, any LLMD you would see would know how to assess/treat if others are present. ==========================
TESTING
You should also be evaluated for coinfections. Not all tests are great in that regard, either, but a good LLMD can evaluate you and then guide you in testing. One of the top labs is:
"With most infections, your immune system first forms IgM antibodies, then in about 2 to 4 weeks, you see IgG antibodies. In some infections, IgG antibodies may be detectable for years.
Because Borrelia burgdorferi is a chronic persistent infection that may last for decades, you would think patients with chronic symptoms would have positive IgG Western blots.
But actually, more IgM blots are positive in chronic borreliosis than IgG. Every time Borrelia burgdorferi reproduces itself, it may stimulate the immune system to form new IgM antibodies.
Some patients have both IgG and IgM blots positive. But if either the IgG or IgM blot is positive, overall it is a positive result.
Response to antibiotics is the same if either is positive, or both. Some antibodies against the borrelia are given more significance if they are IgG versus IgM, or vice versa.
Since this is a chronic persistent infection, this does not make a lot of sense to me. A newly formed Borrelia burgdorferi should have the same antigen parts as the previous bacteria that produced it.
But anyway, from my clinical experience, these borrelia associated bands usually predict a clinical change in symptoms with antibiotics, regardless of whether they are IgG or IgM." ===========
ILADS The International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS) provides a forum for health science professionals to share their wealth of knowledge regarding the management of Lyme and associated diseases. =========== i'm going to try to post a link here with info on SUCCESSFUL LAWSUITS WON ON LYME DISEASE from www.lymenet.org site! look on LEFT side :legal resources" !! all WINNERS!
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posted
I have a "dual" diagnosis of MS and also Lyme. Can Lyme "bring on" MS? Don't know. Is it only Lyme? Don't know.
I do know I spent a year on Copaxone (the only injectable that is NOT an interferon and supposedly does not supress immune system) and only went downhill. My neuro just said "oh, well maybe it's a more agressive form of MS!" Thanks.
I will say this: I am glad I have the "MS" dx, for one reason. If I am hospitalized I can say "I have MS and Lyme" and maybe, just maybe I will be taken seriously. No steroids for me though.
Posts: 374 | From United States | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
I was told 11 years ago I had "probable MS" based on MRIs and symptoms. THey put me on Avonex. It made me feel really cruddy all the time, so I quit 2 years ago when I started investigating Lyme. Lyme didn't show up on any tests, but my immune system was completely wiped out at that point. My LLMD was pretty sure I had Lyme anyway.
I've recently been re-tested, due to a relapse of neurologic symptoms, and got a positive 31 band on the WB, which they did a confirmation test on and it came back positive!! Also, a recent MRI showed 8 more lesions than previously. So the neuro, my LLMD and I discussed it, and I'm going to try Copaxone along with the Lyme treatment. Still don't know exactly what that will entail, but we caught the little buggers and they will be scared into submission!
SO I tell people that I have Lyme disease which triggered the MS in me. My uncle (dad's side) also has MS. From what I've read, people may have a genetic predisposition to MS, and then something triggers it.
It makes me cranky that they tell people they have MS, when it doesn't mean anything.
-------------------- dx: MS in 1998 2007 - Lyme suspected 2009 - Positive Lyme, MS worse. Now: Copaxone shots for MS gall bladder out 7/09 Ceftin, Zith, Septra LDN Acyclovir Monolaurin, DHEA, Pregnonelon, Curcumin Posts: 243 | From New Mexico | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I was diagnosed with MS in 1998 based mainly on brain and spinal lesions and tingling and numbness from the waist down. I took Avonex for many years but stopped because of the side effects. I saw many neurologist who all seemed to concur that I had MS.
I was recently diagnosed with Lyme. My neurologist told me Lyme does not cause spinal lesions so I still have MS. Does anyone with Lyme have spinal lesions?
--Judy
Posts: 67 | From Maryland | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
I wonder how many of us with brain lesions have a positive WB for band #31?
In Cure Unknown, she talks about how the antibody to OspA (band 31) has been shown to attack myelin.
I recently had more lesions show up on MRI and you can see below what my WB showed.
As if lyme disease isn't bad enough, I feel like I have a crap shoot going on in my brain. As far as I know, I don't have spinal lesions (11/07) but I do know others that have.
sutherngrl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16270
posted
The difference in LD and MS is that in LD you have bacteria, the spirochetes attacking your tissue; and with MS your own body is attacking your tissues. MS is not bacterial, that is if it is true MS. I am sure that many people are misdiagnosed with these two because of the similarities in symptoms.
This is why to me it is all such a scary situation. What if you actually have LD, but you are treating for MS; or what if you actually have MS and you are treating for LD? So much damage can be done if you are treating the wrong illness.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
"I was recently diagnosed with Lyme. My neurologist told me Lyme does not cause spinal lesions so I still have MS. Does anyone with Lyme have spinal lesions?"
I have both brain and spinal lesions and a Lyme dx with positive Western Blot and Bowen labs.
"The difference in LD and MS is that in LD you have bacteria, the spirochetes attacking your tissue; and with MS your own body is attacking your tissues. MS is not bacterial, that is if it is true MS."
That is modern neurological theory, but IMO it is not that the bacteria do not exist. It is that the neurologists can't find the bacteria.
Posts: 252 | From NJ USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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sutherngrl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16270
posted
dsiebenh, not finding the bacteria is very likely; but you must also look at how a person responds to treatment. If you take antibiotics for years with no improvement whatsoever, as in my case, then you must begin to look at the possibility of an autoimmune disorder.
I was very convinced that I had LD, and the possibility is still there for me. But I am responding to autoimmune treatment in just a few weeks. I never responded to antibiotics. So I now must begin to face the fact that not "everything" is LD.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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