Topic: To those with psychiatric symptoms.....some info
CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
Hello, I wanted to share some info that may help those with psych presentation of this illness.
I had been in the habit of identifying my severe psych symptoms (have gotten only worse this past year, while in treatment) with BARTONELLA. This is because my LLMD was focusing on that, and I had read a lot about it being responsible for psych stuff on this board. I was getting desperate because I have treated bartonella extensively and the symptoms only got worse.
I recently switched LLMDs/treatment direction, and this one, after doing an extensive exam and reviewing my tests, told me that my psych symptoms are actually attributed to limbic excitability and/or seizures in the limbic system. And that they cannot be attributed to one coinfection or anything in particular.
I need to switch my thinking and unlearn what I have heard/read, because I really trust this LLMD. So he's prescribing anti-epileptic med for the problem. I am really happy to be advised of this as 1) it proves I'm not nuts, and 2) it's sort of comforting that this is not attributable to one infection that was seemingly unsurmountable (bartonella), and 3) it's the reason why psych meds weren't really successful.
So....those of you with these symptoms may want to check out anti-seizure meds for these problems. Just my .02. I feel hopeful! Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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I was just thinking about my recent experiences with the same problem, and came to the same conclusion.
Bart treatment with Levaquin and "My" rizol caused the same type of "psychological herxes." So did general virus treatment with Zeta rizol. So did energetic remedies for CMV and EBV.
I've had two doctors mention that it sounds like the limbic system is involved. I personally believe that all of the above-mentioned pathogens are actually living in this area of the brain, and that's why killing them off causes this type of response.
That's why toxin binders seem to do nothing to lessen the die-off reaction. If the toxins were being released in another part of the body, the toxin binders should have a better effect.
My additional 2�...
Posts: 443 | From The Wild West | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Please keep me updated on your progress with this........these are my worst problems. They are even worse than the pain........
-------------------- TL Posts: 365 | From OK | Registered: Jul 2007
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lymeberry
Unregistered
posted
I am sure the seizure meds work better than this but for anyone with limbic system problems here is a link for natural help for anyone wanting to try that.
Natural suggestions which may help mild LIMBIC SYSTEM symptoms
CD57 I hope this new med really works well for you. I had one LLMD tell me my anxiety was bartonella related and another say it is babesia related. It all gets rather confusing while searching for answers.
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CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
I have just finished Dr Amen's book! It's great. Thanks Lymeberry.
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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lymeberry
Unregistered
posted
After re-reading the post on the link I posted I wonder if the fish oil I am taking now is helping me keep a lid on my anxiety? I had a friend who claimed fish oil really helped her depression and she did not do well without it. It turns out she was diagnosed with Lyme disease last year. She kept telling me she was bi-polar and I kept telling her she probably had Lyme disease.
Another product which helps my brain chemistry that includes at least 4 supplements mentioned in that post of natural supplements is ELE-MAX by Tyler. When I start to get anxiety I take a capsule every morning. Stress X by BIOGENESIS well stop my anxiety sometimes in its tracks and it also helps me relax and sleep deeper if taken before bed.
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CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
My new LLMD is really big on fish oil....I think you are right!
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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lymeberry
Unregistered
posted
I take 2 to 3 teaspoons of Nordic Naturals Arctic Oil every day. I wonder if it made my migraines go away. I can't figure out what made them leave not that I miss them.
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MariaA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9128
posted
Hi CD57,
I'm glad you're finding some help with this!!!!!!! just wanted to say hi. also, does klonopin help anyone with this? Isn't it an antiseizure med (and promotes deep sleep, which helps other things no doubt)?
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
posted
I agree with Andrew on this one. I have the same phsych herxs off certain Bart meds, and I have no doubt that they are living in areas of the brain.
Is there a specific test for limbic function??? I dont know about you guys but until I stop herxing like this I will never come off Bartonella antibiotics.
In fact i am now going to try much higher doses of these meds as standard doses just are not cutting it. Its a no brainer for me scuze the pun!!
-------------------- Pos BB and Bart(Q & H IGG pos) Began treat 1 year after start of illness. Diagnosed Feb 2007. Posts: 648 | From Ireland | Registered: Jan 2007
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
It doesn't mean you don't have bacteria living in your brain. What it means is that your neuro transmitters are totally disrupted effecting the limbic system and anti seizure meds is one way to address it.
There are inhibitory and excititory neuro transmitters. Every one with lyme would benefit from having their neuro transmitter evaluated.
They affect your adrenals and every system in your body. This is what is meant when doctors say you have a chemical imbalance. Your neurotransmitters control the way your entire body functions because they are the chemicals in your brain.
I don't think most LLMD's have been turned on to this cutting edge lab yet. My neuro transmitters were a mess. I used targeted supplements that the lab produces to rebalance mine. https://www.neurorelief.com/Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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feelfit
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12770
posted
Hey Cd-57,
Makes a lot of sense. I have been researching very technical literature on overlapping syndromes: CFS, FMS, MSC, etc. and have found that some of the treatment used for these symdromes have helped me immensely.
Particularly anti-seziure medications, specifically, klonopin. The theory is that our systems (cns, limbic, etc.) are on overload. This is the reason that some of us have such excitability to stimuli and collapse or flee from stores etc. OUr systems are on overdrive.
Suicidal Behavior and Ideation and Antiepileptic Drugs
Update 5/5/2009:
AED class label changes
Manufacturers of antiepileptic drugs (AEDs) or anticonvulsant drugs will update product labeling to include a warning about an increased risk of suicidal thoughts or actions and will develop a Medication Guide to help patients understand this risk.
These changes affect all approved AEDs except those indicated only for short-term use.
Drugs with updated labels....BETTY NOTE: THEY ARE ALL SHOWN SEPARATELY BELOW; so read there to comprehend for us neuro folks!
The approved AEDs affected by these safety label changes are
FDA approved updated labeling for these drugs on April 23, 2009.
Drugs with Medication Guides *********************************
New comprehensive Medication Guides were approved on April 23, 2009, for
Lamictal, Lyrica, Topamax, Zonegran and Keppra.
Comprehensive Medication Guides are being developed for the other drugs and should be available by the end of 2009.
Advice for healthcare professionals
Epilepsy and other illnesses for which antiepileptic drugs are prescribed are associated with an increased risk of suicidal thoughts and behavior.
If suicidal thoughts or behavior emerge during treatment with AEDs, the prescriber should consider whether these symptoms may be related to the illness being treated.
All patients who currently are taking or starting on any antiepileptic drug for any indication should be monitored for notable changes in behavior that could indicate the emergence or worsening of suicidal thoughts or behavior or depression.
Background
Since issuing safety alerts on December 16, 2008 and January 31, 2008 (see below), FDA has been working with the manufacturers of drugs in this class to better understand the suicidality risk.
As described in the January 31, 2008, Information for Health Care Professionals Sheet on AEDS, eleven antiepileptic drugs were included in FDA's original pooled analysis of placebo-controlled clinical studies in which these drugs were used to treat epilepsy as well as psychiatric disorders and other conditions.
The increased risk of suicidal thoughts or behavior was generally consistent among the eleven drugs, with varying mechanisms of action and across a range of indications.
This observation suggests that the risk applies to all antiepileptic drugs used for any indication. ************************************************
* Healthcare Professional Information o Information for Healthcare Professionals
* Other Information
o Public Health Advisory (12/16/2008) o FDA News (12/16/2008) o Template Letter to Sponsors PDF document (12/16/2008)
o FDA News: FDA Alerts Health Care Providers to Risk of Suicidal Thoughts and Behavior with Antiepileptic Medications (1/31/2008)
o Statistical Review and Evaluation: Antiepileptic Drugs and Suicidality PDF document This is the May 23, 2008 statistical review that describes the anti-epilepsy drugs suicidality metaanalysis conducted by the Agency.
* Historical Information o Information for Healthcare Professionals (1/31/2008)
The following is a list of antiepileptic drugs* included in the analyses:
Labeling and approval history from Drugs@FDA. ***************************************************
* Carbamazepine (marketed as Carbatrol, Equetro, Tegretol, Tegretol XR)
* Divalproex sodium (marketed as Depakote, Depakote ER)
* Felbamate (marketed as Felbatol)
* Gabapentin (marketed as Neurontin)
* Lamotrigine (marketed as Lamictal)
* Levetiracetam (marketed as Keppra)
* Oxcarbazepine (marketed as Trileptal)
* Pregabalin (marketed as Lyrica)
* Tiagabine (marketed as Gabitril)
* Topiramate (marketed as Topamax)
* Zonisamide (marketed as Zonegran)
* Some of these drugs are also available in generic form.
PDF document PDF requires the free Adobe Acrobat Reader
Date created: January 31, 2008, updated May 5, 2009
interesting ....thanks CASS for posting the link! betty
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lymeberry
Unregistered
posted
Could part of the problem and equation be inflammation rather than just bugs and viruses hanging out in the brain? The bugs and viruses of course could be adding to the inflammation.
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-------------------- Pos BB and Bart(Q & H IGG pos) Began treat 1 year after start of illness. Diagnosed Feb 2007. Posts: 648 | From Ireland | Registered: Jan 2007
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CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
I also think the neurotransmitter thing has merit. I am going to ask to get mine checked.
Funny when Lymeberry listed the limbic system and its functions,I have problems in every area of what it does. The other day I was thinking why do I have such terrible problems with motivation? I can't even get it together to unload the dishwasher!
MariaA, yep, Klonopin helps calm. My new LLMD is a fan of using baby doses of this to calm things waaay down. I am not happy about this but will do it.
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
Abxnomore, did the natural supps you used rebalance your neurotransmitters? Ie, did they work?
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Hi Do not worry First, When you know or think you feel nuts you usually, are not. Ones say they are normal fake it usually crazy. Just say they are normal do not see. As the No. foolers in today's world. Sociopath/ 1 out 10 people/(scary) may be your next door slick talking neighbor that wins you over will not get help. Say`s he is fine/RIGHT/ Goes from mild to severe as all illnesses.
Know it is frustrating with Lyme/FM/CFIDS/RA/ALS/++++ Doubt 1 neurotransmitter is working right/ including Parathyroid,few Doc`s check. It is prop all dried up as many found through.
Neuroendocrinologist/ Is Dr. we really should be going to. Neurologist have fought this for yr. Now we are fighting back 1 step at time. sigh. I may not be here to see that day, I am fighting for Next generation,Hard.. Many prob. Hugggsss, to all in NEED/Kerry
Posts: 746 | From Clearwater/fl/Pinellas | Registered: Jun 2003
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Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Dear CD 57,
I got seizures while doing herbal treatment for Lyme, and have been hospitalized twice due to prolonged unconsciousness after a seizure, so I am VERY VERY interested in anti-seizure drugs and making sure I truly understood them!!
What I have, personally, found workable is the NUTRITIONAL handling of seizures--the link to the article was posted here on Lymenet!
I was already taking most of the supplements, and found that I could control moving from the "aura" phase of a seizure into the OMG!!! phase using Vitamin B 6--adding more until the warning signs stopped.
I was struck to find that Dr. K's most recent addition to his protocol--at the beginning!!--is high-dose activated B 6, zinc (I was already taking about 100-200 mg a day), Taurine (already taking it), and detox agents. This is a BRIEF outline--see the posts on KPU, which has been being discussed here in the last few days!!!
This vitamin and mineral dysfunction is apparently primarily genetic, and was discovered by Dr. Pfiffer in the 1930s, as I recall. These nutrients ALSO handle many "psychiatric" problems!!
Personally, I would recommend looking into this nutritional approach first, as the known side effects of Klonopin can include suicide.
posted
My daughter's LLMD has also stated this...he sent my daughter for an EEG test-- over night at the hospital and it showed severe seizure activity, consistent with Generalized seizure disorder (epilepsy).
We've since started her on Tegretol and she has had major improvements.
Have you had an EEG test?
Posts: 371 | From CT | Registered: Jun 2008
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Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18524
posted
May I ask a question here to those who are familiar
with the treatments. If the patient experiences
severe nerve inflammation with signs of
neurological complications such as pain that is
associated with treatment would or I guess should
these medications not help with the nerve
awakening experienced on antibiotic treatment?
And do you think it should be including in
protocols for those patients. Will it help them?
Especially children get through the treatment?
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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lymeparfait
Unregistered
posted
Great post!
I also agree with the nutritional approach along with other neuroprocessor balancing formulas to help these symptoms.
I found that my malabsorption issues effect any nutrients making their way to my neuroprocessors!
When I started to take a powdered form of amino acids, things started to change with my neuro issues and my pain! Amino acids are essential for the neurotransmitters to do their work. Most of us are not getting them as we don't absorb our food correctly.
Look into this. I also need enzymes to break down the food, and fish oil for cell healing. Taking food in liquid form seems to benefit me as it goes directly into my system, versus having to be digested. Smoothies and green drinks from fresh veggies give me immediate mental boosts.
I try to start my day with a liquid early breakfast, solid food a little later, and a smoothie for lunch with solid food for dinner.
My neuroprocessors were tested by my LLMD and found many blocks in their communication that directly corresponded to my neuro symptoms with the time of day I was having the extreme problems of sleep, disorganization, forgetfulness, depression, anxiety.
I have been on the Sanesco Lab products. Then I later added the amino acids, and believe a combo of things to address the malabsorption along with the virus and bacteria killing, emotional healing and detox have tremendously helped my neuro issues.
I am off the Sanesco products now, as I feel so much better. I was to get tested to see how the neuroprocessors are working, but I did not want to pay for another test...as I do feel so much better, but I am curious if they are in full swing.
I was on them for 6 months. And I feel it took at least a month on them to start to see them working. You must be patientto see results with them.
They are natural products and must be taken regularly to be effective. I was also on antibiotics at the time when I began them, and then switched to natural protocols for lyme (off abx) after 3 months on the neuro products.
My gut issues of malabsorption are still present , so that's my focus now, and probably always.
It was not one thing alone that helped.
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CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
Just a quick update on this.....I have found the anti-seizure med Lamictal to be extremely effective for my psych and some other CNS symptoms. So far, so good!
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