posted
Anyone else try this particular combo? I did and had a massive reaction my LLMD thought was a herx. He also was worried at the combo as being stressful on the heart. As I ponder a decision on whether to go back on abx I may try this again. Thoughts?
So little is known about how to treat bartonella, but fortunately, Dr. J. Schaller, MD, in his book, Bartonella: Diagnosis and Treatment , has come to the rescue with some new ideas for treating this pernicious, but little-understood infection that almost always accompanies Lyme disease.
After explaining the various ways that this infection can be trasmitted (from flea feces to cat paws), and how the multitude of ever-increasing strains affects humans, Dr. Schaller details the remedies currently in use in traditional medicine to treat bartonella, and then offers hope by suggesting new, and perhaps improved, remedies.
I was at first dismayed when I started to read his evaluation of current strategies: Penicillin doesn't work...neither oral nor IM form has been shown to be beneficial...Doxycycline and minocycline haven't had any effect that was clear at high and prolonged doses....IV Rocephin is useless...Zithromax and Biaxin are considered top treatments, but..."we" (referring to Dr. Schaller's practice) have not seen IV or oral dosing up to 1,000 mg per day significantly decrease bartonella, even after months of use...
Okay? Well, what DOES kill this nasty infection?
But as I kept reading, I was encouraged.
....Zithromax and biaxin at 1250/mg per day with augmentin XR have helped some...
And guess why this might be? Dr. Schaller speculates that bartonella might make biofilms, and that one of these antibiotics functions to get rid of the biofilm, leaving the bugs vulnerable to the other antibiotic. Not all antibiotics can destroy biofilm, and those that can't, basically are useless without another agent to remove the biofilm.
I know, back up. What is biofilm? Well, it's the in-vogue science topic of 2008...basically, plastic wrap that bugs make to protect themselves. Why haven't we studied biofilm as it applies to Lyme and co-infections before? (BTW, I'm going to call it plastic wrap for now...you can do a Wikipedia search if you really want to understand how the goo is made). Suffice it to say, biofilm keeps the rascals safe, and this may be another reason why certain antibiotics, when combined, are more effective at combating bartonella.
As I continued to read, my spirits lifted a little more when I came across Houttuynia, or HH. (No, HH is not Human Growth Hormone!).
This Chinese herb, apparently well-known amongst those who practice Modern Chinese Medicine, has been found to be quite effective for treating bartonella. Formulated for bartonella sufferers in the United States by Dr. C. Zhang, a Harvard-educated MD,
Zhang has found that HH is good at killing bartonella attached to, or inside of, red blood cells. Dr. Schaller does not mention, however, how much of this stuff is needed to eradicate the infection, if in fact, it can do that.
Offering further hope was Dr. Schaller's discussion of clove bud essential oil, which he contends has been effective for ridding bartonella in a handful of his patients (who had tried it on their own). He advocates high doses of 75% diluted clove bud oil with olive, coconut or grape seed oil, although again, did not comment on what constitutes a "high dose." So you'll have to jump on some rabbit trails if you want the answer to that one.
Dr. Schaller's evaluation of treatments finished with others that have not worked, according to his experience...Ceftin, Omnicef, Levaquin, and Cipro. Shucks. Rife machines were also given a thumbs-down. Come to think of it, Rifing didn't seem to help me with my bartonella, either. If it has helped others, however, I would like to know!
So we know what really doesn't work--according to one physician's experience and research. But alas, Dr. Schaller has presented a few new, and potentially marvelous strategies for treating bartonella...Houyttunia, clove bud essential oil, and perhaps the antibiotic combination of zithromax and biaxin, at high doses. If any of these appeal to you, consult a licensed practitioner versed in the use of these for the treatment of your bartonella. In the meantime, check out Dr. Schaller's book, which presents some fascinating facts about bartonella, as well as more detailed information regarding treatments.
-------------------- dx in Dec 2003 tested 2x positive for bart Lightly Chelating 3 weeks off abx and 1 week on:
10 day course a month: Plaq/Ceftin/Rifampin/Biaxin with Tindamax on last two days Posts: 187 | From PA | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
MariaA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9128
posted
be careful about clove essential oil- usually essential oils are dangerous to take internally in some doses. They tend to affect the GI tract.
Clove oil is usually used externally for gum inflammation and infections, and it'll numb the skin when applied in the mouth. Please have a discussion here about how to use it safely, don't just buy a bottle and start drinking it without doing some research first as generally it's unsafe to do this with many essential oils.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
posted
Bump - no one else has tried Zith and Biaxin together as the article suggests?
I've done it and wonder about potential downsides.
-------------------- dx in Dec 2003 tested 2x positive for bart Lightly Chelating 3 weeks off abx and 1 week on:
10 day course a month: Plaq/Ceftin/Rifampin/Biaxin with Tindamax on last two days Posts: 187 | From PA | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
MariaA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9128
posted
They're in the same antibiotic family, so it seems a little bit weird to prescribe both. Usually LLMDs prescribe combos that work by different mechanisms, so as the attack the microbes by different routes.
Have you not tried rifampin or levaquin for bartonella- those are more standard treatments, I think if combined with other antibiotics.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
posted
Yes I've done about 6 months of Levaquin---herxed initally made some progress but that didn't totally resolve. Tendons were continually sore. And I also did Rifampin a few years back and that didn't do much.
The article suggests that even though they are in the same family that one gets the biofilms and the other attacks the bacteria. I was hoping that someone who was/is seeing Dr. S from Florida who seemed to have tried this protocol on some of his patients would be able to weigh in (other of course are welcome to weigh in as well).
I did have a major panic attack that landed me in the ER a couple months back that occurred 3 days after my initial trying of this combo. My doc attributed it to a massive herx but who knows.
Could it be that the impact is really from a combined heavier dose of the macrolides and I could get the same wallop by taking 2000 mgs of either Biaxin or Zith?
Chris
-------------------- dx in Dec 2003 tested 2x positive for bart Lightly Chelating 3 weeks off abx and 1 week on:
10 day course a month: Plaq/Ceftin/Rifampin/Biaxin with Tindamax on last two days Posts: 187 | From PA | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
losferwrds
Unregistered
posted
I swiched from Zith to Biaxin for insurance reasons(aetna pays for 6 zith a month), they are very similar but the Zith has like a 68 hour half life so it saturates,
They are both macrolides int he same family.
I tend to think bart is oppurtunistic, I dunno, I tested postive twice at mdl but negative at labcorb, so I may not have it, but since being on zith and now biaxin, my air hunger issues have almost completely gone away, but the biaxin has me dizzy all the time so its a trade off.
IP: Logged |
Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
I took Zith and Biaxin together, many moons ago. I know it seems silly....but we had some kind of rationale behind it, because as I recall, one gets into a different area of the body better? Something like that. I can't recall.
But, it didn't really help me much. I took it with another abx too, but not a cell wall drug like Augmentin.
I think a better combo would be to choose one, and put it with Plaquenil (hydroxychloroquine).
It is by an LLMD. I think he even presented it at the recent IDSA hearings, or at least, this phenomenon of the effectiveness of a macrolide (Zith or Biaxin) with Plaquenil was mentioned at the hearing.
Maybe you could do Zith for 6-12 weeks with Plaquenil, then switch to Biaxin with Plaquenil. That would be my suggestion, personally.
The person in that article that is paraphrasing Dr. S's book sounds like a journalist, not anyone knowledgable about medicine. I wouldn't jump on the zith/biaxin/augmentin combo just because of what this journalist interpreted from somewhere else.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
MariaA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9128
posted
Dr D from Massachusetts said that Biaxin/Plaquenil was very effective for hundreds of patients in his practice. Of course, there are always lots of exceptions in Lyme Disease, but still.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic