Topic: Antibiotic Treatment of Animals Infected with Borrelia burgdorferi.
Melanie Reber
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Antibiotic Treatment of Animals Infected with Borrelia burgdorferi. [Journal Article] Wormser GP, Schwartz I Clin Microbiol Rev 2009 Jul; 22(3):387-95.
Summary: Despite resolution of the objective manifestations of Lyme disease after antibiotic treatment, a minority of patients have fatigue, musculoskeletal pain, and/or difficulties with concentration or short-term memory of uncertain etiology; these are called post-Lyme disease symptoms or, in more severe cases, post-Lyme disease syndrome or "chronic Lyme disease."
Several recent studies in which Borrelia burgdorferi-infected animals were treated with antibiotic therapy have demonstrated the presence of PCR positivity for B. burgdorferi DNA in the absence of culture positivity. In mice that were treated with antibiotic therapy, residual spirochetes could be taken up by ticks during a blood meal and could be transmitted to SCID mice.
These spirochetes are attenuated; their presence is not associated with either inflammation or disease. In this review the methodology and findings of these studies are critically analyzed, and the significance of the results with regard to human Lyme disease is evaluated, with special emphasis on whether these studies provide useful insights into post-Lyme disease syndrome.
A serious methodological concern is the failure to consider the pharmacokinetic-pharmacodynamic properties of the antibiotic in choosing the dosage regimen used. We conclude that there is no scientific evidence to support the hypothesis that such spirochetes, should they exist in humans, are the cause of post-Lyme disease syndrome.
Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
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"...there is no evidence.."yet they could be transmitted to new mice??? come on. Was it prions (borrelia prions?) that were transmitted? imaginary B.B? No, more likely borrelia burgdorferi bacteriae. The problem is more likely inadeqquate length of treatment with antibiotics.
Everyone knows that for example tuberculosis has to be treated for amny months, and with a combination of several different antibiotics, three, i think I read.
I think other people here have more examples of infections that must be treated for a long time, a year or so.
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nenet
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quote:Originally posted by Wormser et al: These spirochetes are attenuated; their presence is not associated with either inflammation or disease.
Wow! This is amazing! They've found magical non-infectious Lyme spirochetes! Quick, to the bat-mobile and then the bat-cave, to develop a mutant strain with these magical harmless Lyme bacteria so that we can create a cure!!!
What? You mean it's all bat-you know what? Drat, foiled again, batman.
Melanie Reber
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"Wow! This is amazing! They've found magical non-infectious Lyme spirochetes! Quick, to the bat-mobile and then the bat-cave, to develop a mutant strain with these magical harmless Lyme bacteria so that we can create a cure!!!
What? You mean it's all bat-you know what? Drat, foiled again, batman."
OMGosh... you are too funny!
Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
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nenet
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haha, thanks Melanie! Glad we could find some humor in this - making such an absolutely absurd claim is just asking for it.
Maybe Wormser should start researching other pathogens, like HIV, Babesia, or TB, so that he can determine that they are non-pathenogenic after the first round of treatment in those cases as well.
These people are on the cusp of discovering a way to cure all infectious diseases, from the looks of this incredible study.
quote:Originally posted by Lymeorsomething: They just become harmless cuddly pet 'chetes. Gimme a break...
If you work at it they are highly trainable, too!
Mine fetch the paper and bring my slippers when I get home.
Posts: 845 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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D Bergy
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Congratulations are in order. They have reconfirmed the vaccine theory of attenuated bacteria. A little late to the game, but an advancement for themselves non-the-less.
The only problem is mice may not have any such thing as a Chronic Lyme. As far as i know, Dogs do not have a problem with it either. If they are treated, they are cured. I have never heard of a Dog with Chronic Lyme. I think it may be because they are a completely different species, like Mice, but that is just a wild guess.
If I was to do a similar experiment, I would eliminate the flaws in this one.
First of all, as far as I know, Chronic Lyme is not a big issue to the Mouse population. So possibly drawing blood from a human that has been treated for Lyme and still has symptoms should be used. Maybe that seems a little too realistic, but that is just my amateur opinion.
Secondly, you could give the blood from that Chronic Lyme patient to a SCID Mouse and see what happens.
Better yet, if a person has some real conviction behind his conclusions, he would voluntarily accept a pint of blood from the Chronic Lyme patient and transfuse it into his own.
That is known as putting your money where your mouth is.
This experiment proves nothing except that a Mouse cured of Lyme cannot give it to another Mouse. I would guess that a human cured of Lyme could not give it to another human either.
I wonder if this experiment could have been anymore removed from a real life scenario?
Dan
Posts: 2919 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Geneal
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Hmmmmm. My vet said (following initial treatment for Lyme in dog)
That treatment may have to be repeated at a later date...
So....chronic Lyme? Obviously a sign that bb has not be erradicated in dog.
Attenuation of bb.....does that somehow make the bacteria less harmful?
Wishful thinking postulating how this study can actually
Made into something "useful" to support Wormser's agenda.
Like trying to fit a square into a round hole.
Sigh.
Reaching.....at the very least.
Informative as always Ms. Melanie.
Hugs,
Geneal
Posts: 6250 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2006
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Pinelady
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This is almost as bad as when they said AIDS was only in a certain population and not easily transmitted. Now ya know the rest of the story.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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Melanie Reber
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Does anyone have access to the full text article?
And yes, Miss G, I have to agree 100% with you on the dog issue (sorry Dan). There is NO reason to believe that canines have some sort of different acting Bb than we all do. Plus, I have seen studies that have shown viable Bb in canines after ABX treatment. Just can't put my hands on them at the moment.
LD, by definition, is a relapsing disease... meaning it comes back if not eradicated fully. I really can't see how it would act any differently in any warm bodied host. Obviously, one must consider the individual make-up of that particular host (this is where I completely agree with you Dan), however, in 'general' terms...
Bb, unless altered somehow... and THIS is where I would like to actually read the study to find out what is meant by them with the term 'attenuated', will do what Bb does best.
Now... if someone has found a way to alter the way Bb behaves in a warm bodied host- this IS big news. However, the way this abstract is written, causes massive questioning as to the intention behind the hypothesis and conclusions... which basically say this is not happening. Meaning, from what I am gathering this far... 'attenuated' Bb spirochetes are not the reason for 'Chronic LD'.
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Melanie Reber
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Just in case some are not familiar with the term Attenuated...
4 : to reduce the severity, virulence, or vitality of <an attenuated virus> intransitive verb
(Merriam Webster)
Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
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Melanie Reber
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So this is the thing... in my humble non-scientific opinion...
The reason we even conduct studies is to expand our understanding of what we study. In order to do that, we have to be very clear and concise on the definition of what it is we are studying.
So, if we narrow our definition to exclude certain properties of a 'thing', whatever that is, we will also exclude certain findings that do not fit neatly into that criteria when found.
So, the main problem is that Wormser has a very narrow definition of Bb... of what it is and what it is not.
When findings are revealed that do not fit into this definition, he can then easily say those findings match or do not match my definition of Bb, therefore, it is NOT Bb. I still am unsure of what it actually IS, but I can tell you with certainty, what it is NOT.
To me, at least, this is comparable to saying... all baseball caps must be black with velcro closures, medium sized bills and must have a 'SF Giants' logo.
So, if you happen to own a cap that is red, with a long bill, with a snap closure that has an 'Angels' logo...
this can NOT be a baseball cap. So sorry.
Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
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D Bergy
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I have never investigated as to whether Dogs ever have Chronic Lyme or not. I work with several people with hunting Dogs and just pets. They usually all come down with Lyme at some point. The ticks are everywhere in Northern MN.
Maybe the vets here are real good at treating for it or maybe it is just coincidence, but they always recover from it from one treatment.
Part of the reason for this may be that no one questions what is wrong with them. The vet does not say, "the Dog has Arthritis, or it is a mental problem". I also have not heard of a Fibromyalgia diagnosis in Dogs. They always get treated quickly for Lyme.
Dogs may be able to have Chronic Lyme, but I do not think a Dog or Mouse is the best subject to research for a Human Disease. I can feed my Cat Xylitol and it will die. I can eat Xylitol all day long and be fine. The Human model is always going to be better served by Human subjects.
If you count the number of Cancer treatments that were successful in SCID Mice, but failed in Humans, you will see that the Mouse model has very limited usefulness, other than making experimentation easy and fast.
The study assumes that the host has been cured of Lyme, which obviously is not the case in Humans with Chronic Lyme.
A mouse without an immune system can not react to a foreign bacteria either. Whether the bacteria is as infectious as the original non-attenuated bacteria does not matter to me. The body is still reacting to the presence of the bacteria.
Personal experimentation by myself and hundreds of others shows that when bacterial load is reduced with effective treatment, symptoms abate also. It is the presence of the bacteria, attenuated or non-attenuated that causes the problem. The distinction makes little difference. The bacteria has to be removed from the body, either way.
Dan
Posts: 2919 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Melanie Reber
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Dan, you make some excellent points. I want to be clear that I am not dismissing them.
As far as canines recovering fully. Yes, if they are treated quickly and thoroughly, they will recover, like many humans do IF treated quickly and thoroughly.
As you point out... the vets in your area are educated and do not question the diagnosis, so they treat... voila!
However, I can't even begin to count the number of times I have read and heard this... 'my dog HAD Lyme, but now has arthritis'. Or... 'my dog HAD Lyme, but now has cancer'.
Very similar to... 'I HAD Lyme, but now have CFS'.
Do all these patients, canine or human, actually have the new condition exclusively? Has the Bb actually gone completely? Is it actually possible to have both?
These are important questions that need careful consideration. At this point in time... we can not know for certain. Unless we continue to treat for Bb and see what happens. Or unless, accurate studies are conducted with an expansion of Bb criteria that includes a clinical diagnosis of Bb based on clinical findings.
This is where we all hit the slippery slope.
Until such time that an accurate test is available that meets standard criteria for testing, ie. a high enough rate of specificity, we all will be at the mercy of speculation.
Now, even the head of the IDSA recently states that the standard tests for Bb are inaccurate.
What I want to know is simply this...
HOW can ANY conclusions from ANY study be labeled as 100% accurate when they are based on testing used that is now deemed inaccurate?
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Melanie Reber
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As far as who or what to use as subject material for studies...
Again, I understand your point, and agree with your logic that certain diseases will act differently and certain medications will work differently in certain test subjects. The cancer analogy is a perfect example.
This is precisely why 'naive' mice are used for test subjects, because, as you put it, they do not have an immune system. They do not come with predispositions to or infections with other diseases.
Humans do. So, again, the conclusions based on human test subjects would be open to debate and re-interpretation as to whether their genetic make-up was flawed in some way from the beginning.
Take Bb for example. It is rare to find a human case subject that has been bitten by a tick with ONLY Bb. Does it occur, I'm sure it must, is it the norm... no.
So, while I may test CDC positive to Bb by ELISA and WB and meet all the other stringent criteria for a Bb case definition diagnosis to satisfy everyone involved.
And if I am treated quickly and thoroughly with ABX and seem recovered from Bb... and now am testing negative...
And, I do feel much better for awhile...
However, eventually, I begin to have symptoms that mimic Bb, but are not now exactly meeting the narrow definition of Bb...
Do I indeed still have Bb? Maybe, maybe not.
Perhaps I have B bissettii or B genomospecies 1 and 2... or one or more of the other 300 known strains of Borrelia? Perhaps it is NOT a Borellia after all? Maybe it is a viral or protozoan or some other pathogen that ticks carry that we don't even know about yet?
And maybe, just maybe, it IS some sort of weird response mechanism that my body has developed from once having Bb that is now causing continued symptoms? Is this really too far from the truth we know about other conditions that chronic illnesses can cause?
We know that with illness comes a weakened immune system, this opens the door wide for other things to begin malfunctioning. We have all experienced this.
Would they have malfunctioned without the Bb? No one knows, because we can not modify ourselves, turn back the clock, and become naive test subjects.
My point is... if I, as the human test subject, am not fully tested in advance for everything under the sun that we DO know about now... and then deemed all clear... there really is no way to tell after the Bb infection has been 'cured', what is now causing my continuing symptoms.
I am not saying this isn't continued infection with Bb. I AM saying that we can not afford to also maintain a narrow definition of what it IS. because the sad truth is that we just don't know everything there is to know about this yet.
We are all test subjects in one way or another. The big controversy, in my opinion, is that we are asking to be treated humanely while the experiments are still occurring.
Thank Goodness, our committed physicians are still willing to do that.
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D Bergy
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I guess that is my whole problem with the Wormser gangs whole proposition, is they want to stop any antibiotic treatment of Chronic Lyme based on their narrow minded and incomplete conclusions.
The fact is no one knows what and how many various factors contribute to Chronic Lyme. Doctors who are actively treating patients can use their accumulated knowlege to get to the bottom of some individual cases, regardless of the cause.
To stop treating informed patients because not every thing is known is not a decision for him to make, but is a doctor patient decision.
The antibiotics also have risks, so many risks that I am not willing to use them as a Chronic Lyme treatment for my wife. That is our decision, but just because that is my opinion, should not preclude anyone else going the antibiotic route. To me it is a freedom of choice issue.
Wormser does not have a solution for Chronic Lyme. I do not have a solution either. Since neither of us have solutions, then we should shut our mouths about anyone elses choice of treatment. Wormser in particular since he is hardly an impartial researcher.
Dan
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Melanie Reber
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"Wormser does not have a solution for Chronic Lyme. I do not have a solution either. Since neither of us have solutions, then we should shut our mouths about anyone elses choice of treatment. Wormser in particular since he is hardly an impartial researcher."
AMEN! Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
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Pinelady
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You know I would be willing to bet the next proposed treatment will be doggie stem cell transplants. Raf Raf.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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Both of my dogs have lyme disease. They were both treated but still test positive. The vet told me that they only treat with one course and that you can tell if they are "relapsing" because they won't eat, become lethargic, and have fever on a cyclical basis.
Sound familiar? Both of my dogs have this issue. I can tell when they aren't well because they have those symptoms. I was told this 5 years ago, wish I had known it would pertain to me eventually. But they have known this about lyme disease in pets for this long. Why wouldn't it translate to other mammals?
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D Bergy
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If this is the case, why do they not automatically extend the course of treatment to prevent relapse?
Posts: 2919 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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I can't answer that one. Similar to us maybe. The protocol is to treat once and then only to treat the symptoms.
I forgot this one. They said that lethargy may be produced by the pain from swollen joints. They do offer the doggie arthritis meds to help with the symptoms, but no more abx.
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Melanie Reber
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That is just too sad Eliz428. I realize this is none of my business, but...
I lost my dog to TBDs the same week I was diagnosed. My cat is also very ill, again with TBDs. If those were my animals...
I would do whatever it took to find a compassionate and informed vet to continue treating. Our animals deserve no less.
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