Topic: Vit C and other supplements may worsen lyme
Amanda
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14107
posted
I know this may upset some people, but my own experience was that the vitamin/supps/herbs I was taking were acutally holding my immune system down and decreasing the effectiveness of my drugs.
He mentions that studies with AIDS patients clearly showed detrimental effects from taking certain vitamins.
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Vitamin-C a Lyme Patient's Friend or Foe? By Tom Grier
Observations from a Lyme Disease Support Group on Vitamin Supplementation
When patients get sick and stay sick, out of desperation they may turn to a variety of other treatments. With virtually no peer review medical studies to verify the effectiveness of home remedies against Lyme disease, patients are left with mostly anecdotal accounts and personal testimonies of what works and what doesn't.
I would like to submit a caution about the overuse of one such home supplement that I think may exacerbate neurological symptoms of Lyme disease. I am concerned about what I have observed in patients from two Lyme disease support groups in Northern Minnesota using mega doses of vitamin-C to treat their Lyme disease.
Let me first give you a brief account of three patients who were big believers in using vitamin-C to ``boost'' their immune systems.
Patient #1) Patient number one was a 38 year old male who was a Special-Ed teacher, who all of his life was fastidious in his diet and exercise regimen. He was what you might call a health-nut. Every day he would exercise in the morning, and then fix himself herbal teas and take an entire regimen of vitamin and herbal supplements. He adhered to a very strict macro-biotic diet. He favored eating whole grains, home grown sprouts, and juiced his own fruits and vegetables. He also took mega doses of vitamin-C several times a day.
When Richard began experiencing loss of coordination, extreme muscle fatigue, muscle twitches, memory loss, night sweats and slurred speech, he was tentatively diagnosed with Amyl Lateral Sclerosis ALS or Lou Gherig's Disease. His immediate response was to turn to natural healing methods and he increased his endeavors to boost his immune system through use of several nutritional and herbal products. Most prominently he used Echinacea and vitamin-C. He went from two grams of vitamin-C a day to four grams a day. His neurological symptoms not only continued to advance but his symptoms now started advancing at an alarmingly fast rate. (We have also observed that in some Lyme patients, using Echinacea can exacerbate arthritis.)
It was about this time he tested positive for Lyme disease on both the ELISA and two Western Blot tests. Richard was started on a very inadequate dosage of amoxicillin of 250 mgs three times a day, and was then more or less left abandoned by his family physician after three weeks of treatment. He was told by an apprehensive physician that what was left was ALS and not Lyme disease. Richard responded to this by increasing his Vitamin C to six grams a day.
His family and friends were aware of Richard's disciplined home-remedy self-treatment efforts and despite their pleas he did not cut back. In fact he seemed to become more resolved than ever to try to blast his condition with supplements and an organic diet.
After seeing a Neurological specialist who was well versed in Lyme disease, Richard was placed on a stronger antibiotic combination regimen. To Richard this was like poison to the body and reluctantly and belligerently tried the new drug regimen. Without informing his doctor he did what he felt was the best thing to detoxify the antibiotics, he increased his vitamin-C to nine grams a day. He did not tell his treating physician about his exuberant use of home therapies, nor did he voice his strong apprehension in taking high dose long term antibiotics.
His physician in Duluth was reluctant to follow the heavy antibiotic regimen that Richard's out of state neurologist had suggested. For the next year his family physician put Richard through an on again off again regimen of treating for three weeks and then, ``Lets wait and see what happens when we go off for awhile'' approach. His health declined rapidly. His speech was now indiscernible, and his mobility was greatly impaired. His mother had to force him to stop driving.
Richard now wondered aimlessly in his apartment in his stocking feet and sandals which were often soaking wet from water spilled on his kitchen floor. His feet were severely infected with athletes-foot fungus.
Despite a noticeably rapid decline in his health, Richard seemed incapable and unwilling of breaking his routine.
Richard seemed unwilling to concede that his supplements and dietary life style were failing him and he continued to try to enhance traditional medicines by adding his own supplement combinations. Richard was now mixing bulk vitamin-C powder in juice, and drinking eleven grams of vit-C a day! Richard ever more rapidly became severely impaired in his speech, his memory, his judgment, and his motor skills.
In a little over one year from his diagnosis of having positive serology for Lyme, he was completely incapacitated by his disease. He was resolute to the end that his macro nutrition diet followed by fasts, and vitamin supplementation were the answer to his health problems. He ended up back in the hospital with pneumonia and was placed on two IV antibiotics and died 11 days later. Despite our urgings with his mother not brain autopsy was done.
Did vit-C contribute to Richard's extremely rapid decline and worsening of symptoms? There is no way to know for sure but two other cases had similar scenarios.
Patient # 2) Patient number two was a well educated man who was convinced after reading books like ``Life Extension'' and ``Super Nutrition'' that mega doses of vitamins were not only beneficial to maintaining good health but could in mega doses help heal most sicknesses. He often talked about the role vit-C played in building collagen and connective tissue and repairing the body. He was a big advocate not only taking large daily doses of vitamin C but also taking a non-naturally occurring fat soluble form of the vitamin called ascorbyl-palmitate. This was vitamin C that was attached to a fat molecule to make it more fat soluble to penetrate deeper into tissue and into the brain.
At age 26 this former marathon runner started taking vitamin supplements. He started at a common dosage of 500 mgs vitamin C, 400 IUs of vitamin-E, and a high potency multi vitamin. By age 30 he started to have shooting chest pains, arrhythmias, depression, extreme fatigue and malaise. His natural reaction was to increase his vitamin-C intake to a gram a day.
Six years later the patient had profound exhaustion, memory problems, worsening depression and more heart arrhythmias. He now started taking two grams of vitamin-C a day and added 200 mgs of ascorbyl palmitate, and other powerful antioxidants including BHT, BHA, and selenium etc. These food preservatives were touted in the book ``Life Extension'' as having an anti-aging effect. His condition now worsened rapidly.
In the next six months this patient went from being functional and employed, to a man barely being able to lift his head off of a pillow without blacking out. He had been worked up for many possible disorders including Meniers syndrome, Atrial Fibbrillation, and MS until it was determined almost by accident that he had Lyme Encephalitis.
He continued to keep taking vitamin-C and other supplements throughout his first three months of antibiotics. After failing to improve he discontinued all supplements and promptly started to respond to antibiotics. It took another six months of antibiotics before the pressure in his head had finally disappeared. He still suffers from extreme exhaustion, atrial fibrillation, depression, and lingering memory problems, but all of his symptoms have dramatically improved. He no longer takes vitamin-C supplements but does take a multi-vitamin and eats citrus fruits every day.
The third patient: Was first diagnosed with neurological Lyme disease at age 55. Bill was always very active and in tip-top shape. Bill was a mail carrier and was lean and trim from years of walking his route. Part of his daily regimen was to lift weights and to take a handful of supplements including a half a gram or more of vit-C.
Always an innately happy person it was out of character for Bill to suddenly break down and weep, and to sulk in depressions for weeks at a time. When he started forgetting peoples names and where he lived it was clear that there was something more wrong with Bill than simple depression.
Bill was diagnosed by a Duluth neurologist with late stage neurological Lyme disease and was started on 28 days of Rocephin. His recovery was remarkable and in about six weeks he was close to his old self. He resumed his daily regimen of lifting weights and taking vitamin-C. Shortly after his discontinuing his IV Rocephin however Bill started to decline again. Once again he was putting canned goods in the fridge and wondered the neighborhood aimlessly in the winter only half dressed.
His doctor started him on doxycycline 100 mg BID but it did nothing to abate his worsening symptoms. Because he failed to respond it was assumed what he had was not Lyme disease. At the urging of his wife Bill tried several more antibiotic regimens but nothing seemed to have the same immediate and dramatic effect of Rocephin. After a year of this yo-yo approach to therapy his doctor said no more antibiotics. Bill was left with no alternative but to try natural methods and he kept up with his sit-ups, walking, and vitamin-C.
Another year went by and it was obvious to all that Bill was now worse than he had ever been. Although he smiled a lot and quietly acknowledged people politely, he was in constant pain and was easily confused and frustrated by the simplest of things. His wife had to arrange for a house sitter and an attendant because Bill was unsafe at home when left alone and often got lost if left by himself. When Bill started getting paranoid and angry at the strangers in his house, his wife had no choice but to place him in a nursing home.
Years later Bill is now bedridden, sedated, unable to recognize most people and still taking 500 mgs of Vitamin-C a day. His only truly lucid time since his diagnosis was shortly after his IV Rocephin when he was not taking any vitamin-C. This was because the in home IV specialists requested that Bill not take any non-doctor ordered supplements during his therapy.
Despite his remarkable recovery after IV Rocephin, a year after his antibiotics were discontinued Bill Declined mentally and was placed in a nursing home. He was not treated with antibiotics and he declined and died of aspiration pneumonia and was diagnosed as probable Alzheimer's.
Did this person make his neurological Lyme disease worse with vitamin-C? Did vitamin-C inhibit the success of later treatment with antibiotics? Without a good animal study it is impossible to know for sure? But having seen three back to back case histories resulting in two deaths I have to ask if Vitamin-C in High Doses makes neurological acute febrile Lyme disease worse?
What mechanisms are at work? We don't know what role Vitamin C might play in the exacerbation of Lyme disease symptoms, but we do know that in the laboratory Borrelia burgdorferi prefers to grow and reproduce in a slightly acidic environment. While our body tries to closely regulate blood pH with a buffering mechanism, mega doses of vit-C can make the pH more acidic especially in tissues like the joints and brain.
Some antibiotics like the macrolides (doxycycline, Biaxin, Zithromax, erythromycin, Ruulid etc.) are more effective in a slightly alkaline environment, so perhaps vit-C inhibits the effectiveness of some antibiotics?
A food source for the Lyme spirochete may be one or more of the molecular components that make up human collagen and connective tissue. Specifically N-acetyl-glucosamin e has been determined as a likely food source and the bacteria may possibly even bind to this molecule during infection. Collagen production in the human body is enhanced by the addition of vitamin-C, this is why cuts and wounds heal faster in studies on animals when levels of vitamin-C levels are increased. Can vit-C's effects on collagen production contribute to a more favorable environment for the spirochete? We don't know but a well designed animal study could probably give us some answers.
Another factor in worsening neurological symptoms may come from the fact that the brain actually expends energy to get higher concentrations of Vitamin C across the Blood Brain Barrier. The brain needs higher levels of Vitamin C than any other tissue. Can the increased levels of vitamin-C in the brain be enhancing the conditions for a Lyme infection to thrive?
We don't have any animal or human data to compare, but we do know that vitamin-C plays a small but significant role in the production of a neurotoxin called quinolinic acid. Even modest increases in quinolinic acid can cause brain neurons to repeatedly fire. If left unchecked, elevated quinolinic acid levels can lead to demyelination and cell death. This is the main cause of dementia in late stage AIDS patients. At least one study has suggested that quinolinic acid levels in neurological Lyme patients can be 40x higher than normal. Could these levels go higher if the patient takes mega doses of vitamin-C?
In a large patient study that reviewed vitamin supplement use in AIDS patients, it was found that not only did zinc not help improve symptoms, but any amount of zinc actually correlated to a worsening of the disease and a shortening of life.
Normally zinc like Vitamin C is considered an immune boosting supplement, but zinc supplementation is now contraindicated in AIDS patients. Since we know from this experience that some supplements can exacerbate and worsen symptoms in certain diseases (with dire consequences) , then we must use caution in considering treating diseasee with mega doses of any supplement.
What may be good sense for the treatment of a cold, may not make good sense for an AIDS patient or perhaps even a Lyme patient?
These are fairly broad speculations, but there is growing anecdotal evidence that vitamin-C and perhaps some other mega nutritional therapies are either inhibiting the healing process, increasing symptoms, or even worse exacerbating the infection. Until a well designed study chooses to look into the role vitamin-C and other supplements play in this infection, we will never know the true role that mega nutritional supplements play? In addition to these three local cases I have talked to dozens of neurological Lyme patients who were taking vit-C, and it seemed almost without exception that the higher the dose of vit-C, the more severe their symptoms were. This is anecdotal evidence only, but considering the tragic outcomes I have seen, I feel that the consumption of unusually high doses of vitamin-C by neurological Lyme patients should be reconsidered.
There are many anecdotal accounts of Vitamin-C helping but if a patient fails to get better on antibiotics while on high doses of Vit-C , then it is time to reconsider its use.
Tom Grier
-------------------- "few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain Posts: 1008 | From US | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
This article is several years old and personally although the writer does have some scientific training I think I don't see any actual scientific references.
I consider the info anecdotal just like any other patient who posts on LymeNet. Results from only 3 patients is just not enough to sway my opinion personally.
As for quinolinic acid -- everything I have read links that neurotoxin to tryptophan and serotonin and the B vitamins. I have discussed this many times. It is documented in the Buhner book as well. Hubby is proof that Resveratrol does work to block this process as Buhner suggests.
As for not giving Vitamin C because it could help build connective tissue which could feed the Lyme -- well that argument is a little like saying do not give B vitamins because they could feed Lyme. I would much rather protect my nerves with B vitamins and prevent a possible knee replacement myself with the vitamin C.
As long as the infection is being treated with antibiotics or killing herbs then I will take my chances on possibly feeding the infection. We are talking about treatment which takes years in many cases and purposely avoiding supplements for that length of time is just NOT a good idea in my opinion.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
Want to add that patient 3 was supposedly only taking 1/2 gram of vitamin C. This is only 500 mg. Sorry, but there is no way that I believe the Vitamin C could be responsible for the patients symptoms at that low dose.
This patient is actually a classic example of someone with Bartonella or BLO relapsing after IV Rocephin. I heard the Dr B speak once and he said that IV Rocephin was bacteriostatic for Bartonella or BLO but not bactericidal.
Also, if one follows the Dr B guidelines, then 28 days of Rocephin or only 200 mg of Doxycycline are not high enough doses to adequately treat neurological Lyme. In my opinion this case is an example of inadequate therapeutic treatment and tells us nothing about the effects of Vitamin C on neurological Lyme.
When the article was originally written there was very little info or treatment of coinfections. Even as recently as late 2004 the treatment Dr B prescribed for BLO was only one month of Levaquin. A month later when hubby went back for a follow-up appointment the treatment had changed to 3 months of Levaquin. And then a couple of months later Rifampin was being used experimentally.
This is my opinion based on hubby's experiences.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
This article is just speculation. The problem could be another factor the author failed to consider.
Maybe there were allergies involved or the drugs caused fungal infections. Maybe, Maybe, Maybe.
We don't even have well designed studies on what happens to our bodies being on long term antibiotics let alone singling out Vitamin C.
I don't find this article upsetting, it's just a guessing game like we all play when we can't figure out why we're not getting better.
There is nothing here that anyone can hang their hat on as a reason to stay away from Vitamin C in my opinion. I do believe we need to be balanced and do our homework on which herbs & vitamins are contraindicated with the drugs we take.
The drugs we take can & occasionally do result in fatalities, so I don't see proof here it is the addition of vitamin C that's the culprit.
It's a good thing to consider others opinions but that doesn't mean that their opinions are correct.
Saying that someone improved after stopping vitamin C doesn't tell us if that is because he had finally been on the drugs long enough to show improvement and stopping the vitamin C at the time could have just been coincidence.
Don't know and can't tell from this conjecture.
But thanks, Amanda, it was interesting to read Grier's viewpoint but no way of telling if he's on the right track with this -- more questions than answers.
Posts: 590 | From Canada | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
It is wise to consider that it is possible that
supplements can be bad for you. It is also
important to know that they can help so it is a
balancing act. Do a test once in awhile to see
is it really help. I know that can be hard to
do when you are very sick to figure out exactly
what helps and what does not.
I have my bachelor's in nutrition and work in
clinical nutrition in a hospital.
It is vital that you inform your doctor of any
supplement you take. There are many drug-
supplement interactions and many don't realize
it because they think they are "natural"
I had an elderly patient once who was paying his
naturopath $400 per month for supplements. I
know that they get a percentage of every
supplement they prescribe, every naturopath
prescribes something different than the other.
I was bothered by this but noticed that his MD's
also prescribed a zillion meds that cost alot
of money too each with their own set of side effects.
I also went to a naturopath once when I was
weaning off an antidepressant due to the side
effects. He promptly gave me more than 3
supplements within days I had developed very odd
symptoms. For me I learned to only try one new
thing at a time.
When I look at the side effects of the
prescription meds I have taken and take now it
is overwhelming. Recently, I developed severe
uncontrollable movements while on a high dose of
indocin (an anit-inflammatory agent). It was
listed as a side effect but I missed it and so
did everyone else. I felt like it could have
killed me. So whether it is a supplement or a
med they all have side effects.
So my thoughts are: exercise caution with all
things. Moderation. Try to use things that
have been validly studied. Fish oils have many
studies and I have never heard of a side effect
with doses of 1000-2000mg/day. Many other
things as well have been studied.
Posts: 207 | From NH | Registered: Jul 2009
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Tom Greir..
Good guy... and VERY smart. Been around nearly since day one... and knows his stuff.
Bea said.. "I consider the info anecdotal just like any other patient who posts on LymeNet."
Actually, Bea, I'd have to say he is above and beyond any patients I've ever seen on LymeNet as far as his smarts about Lyme disease.
I'd put him in the ring with many LLMD's too.. and bet my money on Tom.
As for the Vitamin C thing...
In MY opinion, he has a good cautionary warning.
As we know, the science isn't there for much of what we know and do...
So experience must lead the way in those cases.
For example.. stuff we think of as "normal" for Lyme and TBD's has NO scientific studies backing it.
Dr. B and Dr. L... two outstanding docs.... and for years they wrote amazing and accurate stuff, relying on their clinical findings and any bits and pieces they could dig up.
If they hadn't... we would still think like the IDSA wanted us to and assume Lyme was caused by a virus... and antibiotics were not needed.
Our early LLMD's were the first to step out of the box and start treating with antibiotics. When people got better, then relapsed, more antibiotics were given and the folks got better.. so it was determined MORE antibiotics in the early stage was better.
Even Bumsteere himself said no antibiotics for people because Lyme was caused by a virus.
Boy was he wrong.
So is Vitamin C good or not?
Heck if I know... but I wouldn't write off Tom's information too quickly.
Chances are... he might be right.
After all, Vitamin C makes me sick as a dog. So one point for Tom.
So... please maybe don't write off his info so quickly.
He was right about the bad IFA and ELISA's and published about them back when we all were being told they were "good things".
We will just have to agree to disagree on the issue of Vitamin C. I have read other articles by Tom and do not feel that this one measures up.
I am an accountant and not a scientist. But the one rule I remember from science is that "Correlation is not causation."
As to having a bad reaction to Vitamin C -- there are many different formulations and sources. Hubby is waiting for a mail-order shipment of IV Vitamin C prescribed by his LLMD. The source of the brand he will be using is corn. Other common sources for IV vitamin C are casaba and sugar beet (hard to find).
As for the capsules there are many additional sources -- rose hips is one I know.
Hubby will be doing IV's of 25 grams of Vitamin C probably 3 times per week. Has done this in the past including while doing IV Rocephin when he had daily IV's.
A very good neurologist (author of The Better Brain Book) put hubby on high dose CoQ10. He warned hubby that especially in the presence of brain inflammation he would have side effects (head aches) until his body adjusted to the dose. I feel that this could happen with any antioxidant that crosses the blood brain barrier -- which includes Vitamin C.
Maybe if the Lyme patients Tom mentioned had taken higher doses of Vitamin C in conjunction with adequate antibiotics the outcomes would have been different.
I would love to see some research studies on nutrition as therapeutic treatment for tickborne diseases -- not as a killing agent, but as healing agents and for symptom control.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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Amanda
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14107
posted
I see many lymies here taking numerous supplements/vitamins/herbs, at high doses.
I posted this because I am worried. I don't see postings warning people that herbs/supplements/vitamins have a potential to make things worse, either by decreasing the effectiveness of meds, or otherwise harm them.
I know there are always those that post they are helped by these things.
But there are also those of us, myself included, who had the OPPOSITE happen, where these vitamins/herbs actually made us worse. And if you are taking these things with the abx, then how do you know those supplements are helping you? Unless you only take one supplement at a time, and monitor bloodwork and symptoms, how do you know if it helps?
If they found that zinc, a supposed immune booster, makes AIDS patients worse, then that tells you there is a lot we just don't know.
No one has done the studies to determine how these things interact with our meds.
Many people here talk about the need to limit sugar, because the abx might cause yeast overgrowth, which may make you worse.
If you have had bloodwork done showing you were short on vitamins, then by all means, yes you need them.
-------------------- "few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain Posts: 1008 | From US | Registered: Dec 2007
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
I'm with Bea.
Tom's article was posted here back in June of 09.
Following is the research I did back then on this.
After reading Tom's info I decided I'd better do some research since I take 3 grams of vit C per day. My LLLMD knows about it as I give him a list of supps everytime I talk to him.
In the research that I found thus far, there is no indication that Vitamin C would interfere with antibiotic treatment in fact it may actually be helpful.
Interesting about the info on the cows that I posted above but also this.
http://www.umm.edu/altmed/articles/vitamin-c-000994.htm Tetracycline -- Some evidence suggests that taking vitamin C with the antibiotic tetracycline may increase the levels of this medication; it may also decrease the effects of vitamin C in the body. Other antibiotics in the same family include minocycline (Minocin) and doxycycline (Vibramycin).
This is what I found to substantiate that claim. It is a dental study with a small group (7 patients) done in 1957. You would think if it really did increase serum levels that this would be widely used??
This article may be reprinted free of charge provided 1) that there is clear attribution to the Orthomolecular Medicine News Service, and 2) that both the OMNS free subscription link http://orthomolecular.org/subscribe.html and also the OMNS archive link http://orthomolecular.org/resources/omns/index.shtml are included. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Antibiotics and Vitamins Work Together (OMNS Dec 3, 2007) The benefits of using vitamin C together with antibiotics are considerable.
In a controlled trial with dairy cows with infected udders, high dose vitamin C has been shown to have synergistic effects when used with antibiotics.
[1] The cows were divided into two groups. One group was treated with antibiotics alone, and the other group was treated with antibiotics and the human equivalent of 10,000 mg/day injections of vitamin C. The vitamin C group got well much sooner: in just over half the time.
In humans, an astoundingly high 120,000 mg/day (nearly 2,000 times the RDA) of vitamin C delivered intravenously has been demonstrated to accelerate healing of burned skin in a blinded clinical trial.
[2] 1,000 to 3,000 mg/day (100 times the RDA) of niacin is a standard treatment for controlling cholesterol. [3] Similar doses of niacin have been demonstrated to reduce inflammation [4] and to reduce injury to the brain after strokes. [5]
Extensive evidence shows that vitamin D serves as an important regulator of immune system responses. [6] Many of these regulatory pathways are optimized when vitamin D is present in the bloodstream at levels considerably higher than average values in the American population. Regular vitamin D supplementation, by taking a daily multivitamin and an additional daily 1,000 IU of vitamin D, is recommended. In addition, a one-time dose of up to 5,000 IU of vitamin D at the onset of a serious bacterial infection should be considered. Physicians now have access to routine tests of vitamin D status. Periodic blood testing is recommended for anyone regularly taking very large amounts of vitamin D.
Physicians managing life-threatening bacterial infections have many options for administering vitamin C and niacin. The simplest is oral supplementation at modest doses of 2,000 to 10,000 mg/day of vitamin C and 100 to 500 mg/day of time-release niacin or "no flush" niacin (inositol hexaniacinate).
Injections can be used to deliver much higher doses directly to the site of infection. For improved at-home management of respiratory infections, extra vitamin C, vitamin D and niacin should be taken along with antibiotics or other prescribed medication.
There are now dozens strains of antibiotic resistant bacteria. They are estimated to kill about 100,000 Americans per year, more than AIDS, breast cancer, and auto accidents combined. High potency vitamin supplementation can prevent many of these deaths and speed recovery.
References:
[1] Naresh, Ram; Dwivedi, S. K.; Swarup, D.; Patra, R. C. Evaluation of ascorbic acid treatment in clinical and subclinical mastitis of Indian dairy cows. Asian-Australasian Journal of Animal Sciences, 2002. 15(6), 905-911. [2] Dubick, Michael A.; Williams, Chad; Elgjo, Geir I.; Kramer, George C. High-dose vitamin C infusion reduces fluid requirements in the resuscitation of burn-injured sheep. Shock, 2005. 24(2), 139-144. [3] Brown, B. Greg. Can niacin slow the development of atherosclerosis in coronary artery disease patients already taking statins? Nature Clinical Practice Cardiovascular Medicine, 2005. 2(5), 234-235. [4] Yu, Bi-lian; Zhao, Shui-ping. Anti-inflammatory effect is an important property of niacin on atherosclerosis beyond its lipid-altering effects. Medical Hypotheses, 2007. 69(1), 90-94. [5] Maynard, Kenneth I. Natural neuroprotectants after stroke. Science & Medicine (Narberth, PA, 2002). 8(5), 258-267. [6] Tavera-Mendoza, L.E. and White, John H. Cell Defenses and the Sunshine Vitamin. Scientific American, November 2007, 62-72.
Nutritional Medicine is Orthomolecular Medicine
Orthomolecular medicine uses safe, effective nutritional therapy to fight illness. For more information: http://www.orthomolecular.org
The peer-reviewed Orthomolecular Medicine News Service is a non-profit and non-commercial informational resource.
Editorial Review Board:
Carolyn Dean, M.D., N.D. Damien Downing, M.D. Harold D. Foster, Ph.D. Steve Hickey, Ph.D. Abram Hoffer, M.D., Ph.D. Thomas Levy, M.D., J.D. Erik Paterson, M.D. Bradford Weeks, M.D.
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Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18524
posted
Interesting. If I have not read so much about
healing with C I would be confused. But in LYME who
knows. I did not start taking C until I started
antibiotics. D -I know did me wrong on no treatment
so it may be the same for C.
I am still getting better.
E is to help get the bad stuff out for me.
Reduces cholesterol great. So with Lyme caution
is always best. If D made me go severe neuro
before treatment I guess C could help it along also.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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RDaywillcome
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 21454
posted
I was told that the reason some of us take plaquenil, is to help break down the acid barrier so antibiotics can work.
Posts: 1738 | From over the rainbow | Registered: Jul 2009
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
While I'll definitely file this information in the `food for thought' category, my eyes sort of glazed over when I got to the 3rd example in Tom's article.
The thrust of the message seemed to be about `mega doses' of Vitamin C and/or supplements, and yet the 3rd patient was only taking 500 mgs. of Vitamin C..... 500 mgs. constitutes a `mega dose'?
I'm sure the proponents of CODEX would love this kind of information.
And as others have pointed out, the problem could easily have been linked to additives (like calcium, rutin, bioflavanoids) or fillers in the Vitamin C, or perhaps to the form of the Vitamin taken (ascorbic acid, mineral chelates, liposomal).
Still, it's `food for thought'.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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WildCondor
Unregistered
posted
IV Vit C didnt do anything for me but cost money and hurt my veins. You can take it by mouth to bowel tolerance if you really want to but its been recognized as not being the best for Lymies.
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Lymeorsomething
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16359
posted
So what's the deal with the salt/c protocol? Is it ineffective or do they work in concert?
If this rationale were correct, you could eighty-six the C and just run salt...
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
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Amanda
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14107
posted
I think lyme is not a cookie-cutter disease. What may help one person , may do nothing for someone else, or may harm another.
The studies posted above on cows are not for lyme disease. All of us are well aware that lyme is notoriously unresponsive to many kinds of meds and other treatments that help other infections.
If you are taking high doses of vitamins and supplements and not getting better, you may want to consider stopping them for a while and seeing what happens. We do this anyway if we think a medicine isn't working, or is causing problems. So, why wouldn't that same process apply to herbs/vitamins?
-------------------- "few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain Posts: 1008 | From US | Registered: Dec 2007
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Good point that Lyme is not a cookie cutter disease.
Amanda wrote: The studies posted above on cows are not for lyme disease.
Yes, there are no studies for lyme disease regarding vitamin C or much else for that matter. We pretty much have to go by the studies that are available for other diseases.
Amanda wrote: If you are taking high doses of vitamins and supplements and not getting better, you may want to consider stopping them for a while and seeing what happens.
That wouldn't be my first choice but I can see where it should be added to the list of considerations.
I'm so glad to see a post with polite, thoughful discussion and no bashing even though there are differing opinions.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
When my daughter was hospitalized on IV Rochepin the second time she had an anaphalatic shock-almost died, was in intensive care. Not knowing what to give her next-she was given IV Vitamin C.Then she was desensitized to Penicillian G and on it for 4 Months. That was over 19 years ago. Much has happened since., but she does not take any supplements, except sometimes bee pollen. She had MS as well as Lyme-Dr. knows she had both-was treated very aggressivly by Dr.(well known to Lyme) Now she takes Avonex shots to keep her system from attacking itself-to prevent more brain lesions. Some Neurologists could not determine if the lesions were Lyme or MS, but we now have a clear diagnosis. She was totally healed of the Lyme after being in a study for Lyme with 5 others on Halaen 951. She was symptom free for over a year, then had a MS attack ( it was different than the Lyme) I am saying all this to say that anything that overstimulates an immunecompromised system could cause problems. Everything in moderation. Defnitely do not take Calcium with Doxycycline-Always tell your LLMD what you are doing.
Posts: 8 | From NW N.J. | Registered: Sep 2009
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