They were doing stories on patients who need organ donations .
I thought to myself wow, I need to take the organ donor option off my driver's license .
I wouldnt want my organ to infect someone.
I loved to give blood , now i cant do that.
Now this also.
I hate that. Really. It bothers me. And just realizing it today.
-------------------- Let us fight with peace. Posts: 90 | From Niles, Ohio | Registered: Aug 2009
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IckyTicky
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 21466
posted
Yeah I realized it not long ago too. And also realized that I'd rather not receive blood either, unless it was a severe life or death situation.
-------------------- IGM: 18+, 23+, 30+, 31+++, 34+, 39IND, 41++, 58+++, 66+, 83-93IND IGG: 31+, 39IND, 41+ Also positive for Mycoplasma Pneumoniae and RMSF. Whole family of 5 dx with Lyme. Posts: 1014 | From Texas | Registered: Jul 2009
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13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG. Posts: 4480 | From Northeastern Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2005
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
seekhelp, i disagree 100%.
edited 9-10-09; either seekhelp deleted his or moderator's did!
on your licenses, just put a little address label showing NO..BLOOD DONOR until your license comes up for removal; what's what licening folks told me to do.
************
here's what i did for my left hip surgery 2 years ago. they said i'd need 2 pints of blood.
I DONATED MY OWN TO BE USED FOR MY SURGERY!! you can give once only every 2 weeks! and must be used WITHIN ONE MONTH or charges apply!!
insurance paid this but i was astounded they charged $800 - $1000 for the process due to all the blood typing, etc!
anyway, i got my OWN blood back!! so there is an option for your sister!! you just have to plan ahead, and long paperwork to do; very detailed Q/A but NOTHING ABOUT LYME MENTIONED ... only malaria close to our co-infections!
************
read melanie reber's outstanding post and replies; hopefully you'll change your perspective ... it's wrong in my opinion.
Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
I have thought about that issue before....whether someone who really needs an organ would want mine or not, along with the risks.
I think it is safest to not be an organ donor for now, because what if one of your organs, say, an eye...goes to someone who would have preferred to wait for a non-infected one?
Like some of your organs may be desperately needed, but some might not be, and I doubt there is a way to say, "only give to people that it's life or death."
Like if someone who knew me, and knew the struggles I go through needed an eye, I think they'd say, "I'll wait for the next one." That's just my two cents.
There might not be much of a risk, if the blood isn't too terribly infected, but who really knows. I don't know either way, so I'd rather be safe.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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-------------------- ---Beautiful Disaster--- IgeneX WB: IgM: 18+, 31+, 41+, 58+, IgG: 31++, 39 IND, 41++, 31kda Epitope Test: Positive Labcorp: IgM: 23+, 41+ No LLMD due to money since Sept 2008. Was on Doxy, I.V. Rocephin (30 days), Flagyl. Also dx with Bartonella. Posts: 139 | From United States, East Coast-ish | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
coltman, some people with transplants do live very long...
Posts: 207 | From NH | Registered: Jul 2009
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feelfit
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12770
posted
Our whole blood donating system is, in most probability, terribly infected anyway. I know that I donated blood every 3 months for the 18 years that I was undiagnosed.
We know that if we have babesia, we cannot give blood. Look at all of us infected! Who, in all of those years is walking around with my infected blood?
I was also on the bone marrow donor registry, which I also had to remove my name from....as for the organ donor program, I suppose, it would be situational....but this crap does love the organs.....I don't think That I would take my chances.
The more important issue, it would seem, would be our dirty blood supply....yikes
Posts: 3975 | From usa | Registered: Aug 2007
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
quote:Originally posted by seekhelp:
We assume Lyme due to a small lab in California pointing out a 31 or 39 KdA on a WB.
Please speak for yourself.
I can not be included in your "we". I have NO DOUBT that I was infected with borellia and I know that I am not alone.
-------------------------
I'm on the black list for blood donation for Babesia anyway. I should hope that list is extended to organs as well, but who knows.
As I think of it...chances are someone in need of an organ transplant would most likely be in a somewhat unhealthy state to begin with, wouldn't they?
When someone has an organ transplant, don't they take down their immune system so they don't reject the organ for a period of time following the transplant?
They would be most likely assume that they're getting a healthy organ and have no idea what hit them. Who knows if they'd EVER figure out why they feel so much worse when they should be feeling better.
How many doctors would be likely to think test them for Lyme if they started failing after the surgery? Would they then rule it out with our inaccurate tests?
I personally wouldn't even suspect that a person who was unhealthy might donate their organs. Would the doctors many of us seem to encounter consider that possibility?
The organ you donate could prevent them from getting an uninfected one.
I would think it would be different if you could ensure that someone would tell them & give them the option to take their chances, knowing that the person donating the organ had a resistant bacterial infection & possibly other unknown co-infections, without making them go back to the bottom of the list if they chose to wait.
Who knows what kind of shape any of our Lyme-infected organs are in anyway. Do we know our organs won't be failing us any time soon?
Lastly, if I were going to die without an organ transplant, knowing what I've been going through with these diseases, I'd rather not further burden my family. I'd rather just move on & let them not have to deal with all the misery and expense my illness has put us through.
If they did come up with accurate testing and a sure-fire cure, by all means I'd donate. If it was a matter of just a painful knee joint....maybe I'd consider it.
I wouldn't wish unsuspected Neurological Lyme disease on my worst enemy.
Perhaps a person's view on this topic may be influenced by their personal experience with tick-borne disease, the symptoms they've endured and the effect it's had on their life & the lives of those around them.
--------------------
Sorry for the tangent....
It's very sad indeed.
Every time I receive something asking for a blood donation, I feel absolutely awful.
These darned diseases frustrate many of us in SO MANY ways.
Ali
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
quote:Originally posted by seekhelp :
I guess my perspective is think of a person on kidney failure with a young child who knows they have 10 days left on earth to spend with their kid and no hope of recovery w/o that kidney.
I think the question is do they actually have hope of recovery with an infected kidney or does that just prevent them from getting a healthy kidney when one becomes available?
I would also think that if they had been given a transplant of a Lyme-infected kidney & it failed, someone else would be given priority for the next available one - as they would have no idea why it failed & would likely assume that the person they transplanted it into wasn't a good transplant recipient.
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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lymielauren28
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13742
posted
I was an organ donor too. Now that I have Lyme and friends I would NEVER donate my organs.
My father-in-law (who I'm very close to) had a kidney transplant about a year and a half ago. He was weeks away from death when he finally got his kidney and had been on dialysis for years.
He was already severely immuno-compromised from being so sick for so long, and as Ali G pointed out, they put you on drugs to weaken the immune system even further so that your body doesn't regect the new organ.
So you know, the pills aren't for a certain period of time - they stay on them for the remainder of their lives to keep the immune system low.
Not a doubt in my mind that if he'd recieved an infected organ he wouldn't have made it.
Besides that, I wouldn't wish this disease on anyone. I know that I've been on deaths door in the past and I know just how sick this disease makes you - to pawn that off on someone who is already extremely sick is just irresponsible.
It also would prevent them from recieving a healthy organ, as others have pointed out. So, no way would I even consider it! No one else on this board should either.
-------------------- "The only way out is through" Posts: 1434 | From mississippi | Registered: Nov 2007
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Melanie Reber
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3707
posted
[Removed a quote from a post that has been deleted.]
I had a beautiful 2 year old nephew whom I adored. He lost a kidney to cancer, then went through 3 liver transplants. Jerimiah did not make it and was buried on his Mother's birthday.
I don't remember anyone thinking at that time... anything close to what you wrote above.
sutherngrl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16270
posted
There are people that live a long time after transplants and every day of life is precious.
I don't think any of us should ever be blood or organ donors. It is simply irresponsible.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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sammy
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13952
posted
I also wanted to donate my organs and tissues. It is sad that this disease takes so much from us that even in our deaths it robs us of that final gift.
If I pass before they find a cure for Lyme and Co's then I will donate my body to science. This is an option that many people do not consider but it too is invaluable. I was lucky enough to have had cadavers in my A&P classes so I have personally been blessed by others generosity.
It is also important to discuss your wishes with your loved ones. That way they will not have to make any decisions while they are mourning. They can have peace in following through with your request.
Posts: 5237 | From here | Registered: Nov 2007
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
I erased my comments. THis is a sensitive issue and like I said morals come into play. We all make the decisions we feel best. I respect that. Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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Melanie Reber
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3707
posted
MY point is that you are being incredibly insensitive, Coltman. To many, obviously, this is not a humorous subject. I really don't think the language barrier can account for it either... rather, from what I have observed thus far, I have a feeling you are lacking in tact or the ability to self-censor. Either one of those things (or both) or you derive some sort of sick pleasure in trying to be terribly offensive?
Perhaps you should do a bit of research before spouting off about certain things when it is obvious that you are using opinion only to base your statements on?
It would surely aggravate me a whole lot less, and I assume a few others here as well. I do not wish to argue or debate with you but if you don't realize this already, perhaps it is time you did?
......
The prognosis for heart transplant patients following the orthotopic procedure has greatly increased over the past 20 years, and as of May 30, 2008, the survival rates were as follows.
In a November 2008 study conducted on behalf of the U.S. federal government by Dr. Eric Weiss of the Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine, it was discovered that heart transplants- all other factors being accounted for- work better in same-sex transplants (male to male, female to female). However, due to the present acute shortage in donor hearts, this may not always be feasible.
As of the end of 2007, Tony Huesman is the world's longest living heart transplant patient, having survived for 29 years with a transplanted heart. Huesman received a heart in 1978 at the age of 20 after viral pneumonia severely weakened his heart. The operation was performed at Stanford University under American heart transplant pioneer Dr. Norman Shumway, who continued to perform the operation in the U.S. after others abandoned it due to poor results..
Another noted heart transplant recipient, Kelly Perkins, climbs mountains around the world to promote positive awareness of organ donation. Perkins is the first heart transplant recipient to climb to the peaks of Mt. Fuji, Mt. Kilimanjaro, the Matterhorn, Mt. Whitney, and Cajon de Arenales in Argentina in 2007, 12 years after her transplant surgery.
Dwight Kroening is yet another noted recipient promoting positive awareness for organ donation. Twenty two years after his heart transplant, he is the first to finish an Ironman competition.
Fiona Coote was the second Australian to receive a heart transplant in 1984 (at age 14) and the youngest Australian. At 24 years since her transplant she is also a long term survivor and is involved in publicity and charity work for the red cross, and promoting organ donation in Australia.
Drugs that prevent transplant rejection must be taken for the rest of the patient's life. Such medications will lower the immunity against infections.
Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
sammy,
You may still be able to donate your body to science (like for Anatomy students), only if parts of it will not be donated to another person, and instead will only used as a teaching tool.
Because maybe things they use to preserve your body would kill any infection? I'm assuming they would have to use something to "treat" or "prepare" cadavers used in science, to prevent decomposing (sorry if too graphic of a comment). So that may still be an option for those with Lyme.
I think Med schools use cadavers, right? If there is no preservative like alcohol, formaldehyde, etc used, than it might not be safe. I just don't know.
I hope no one finds this comment insensitive...please let me know if so. It could be an option for those who still want their body to go towards helping people.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Ann-OH
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2020
posted
I am going to medical school.
Of course they treat cadavers to make them safe to handle and the students take precautions as well; medical schools couldn't take the risk of harming a student.
I am pretty sure the part of your eye that is used can't pass on infections.
Call your local medical school and get all the answers.
cactus
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7347
posted
11 years ago, I was the primary caregiver for my best friend while she waited 8 mos on the transplant list - for a liver.
And - no - she did not damage her liver drinking, but as a result of a car accident combined with an undiagnosed blood-clotting disorder.
8 mos is a long, long time to hope and a long time to learn all about the ins and outs of organ donation.
She did not make it.
And yes, she left behind a young child - who became my foster child.
I have been an avid proponent of organ donation ever since.
But when the nature of these infections became clear to me, I had to do some hard thinking.
So I'd like to offer a few thoughts based on having lived that experience:
- First, having it notated on your driver's license is not enough to make you an organ donor.
The hospital still has to get full consent from your nearest relative. Always make sure your relatives know your wishes.
I know this because we waited through 2 such situations - in one, the family could not be reached at all.
In the other - the family could not decide and delayed their decision until many organs were not usable.
Perfectly understandable, and none of us had ill feelings about that, by the way.
If someone you know truly wants to be an organ donor, they'll need to have a card stating that, with signatures of 2 witnesses in their wallet or be positive that their relatives are reachable and understand their wishes.
- And most importantly - receiving an infected organ would have been devastating. Utterly and completely devastating.
Think about it - to receive an organ, a patient is already ill. Already in distress.
Add to that the anti-rejection meds, the long, long surgery, and the long recovery time... And then add in an infected organ.
It would make recovery almost impossible, even for the healthiest of people.
Then, consider as well that having received that infected organ, the patient does not have a shot at the next one - the one that might truly have been life-saving, the one not infected.
And finally - all chances for future transplants would now be out the window, as having an infection such as babesiosis, borelliosis, etc - well, probably that would not make one a good candidate for another transplant.
This is obviously a personal decision for all.
It's hard to say what we would have agreed to, when waiting on that liver - would we have jumped at *any* liver?
From where I am now - I think, "No."
My best friend had a brilliant mind and a heart full of hope. I believe she would have passed on an infected liver, in the hope that a healthy one would come available.
Just my thoughts.
-------------------- �Did you ever stop to think, and forget to start again?� - A.A. Milne Posts: 1987 | From No. VA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
I am very sorry to hear about your friend. How agonizing that she left behind a young child. I am sure that you stepping up to the plate for this child provided a sense of relief for her.
Like you said, it is hard to know what you would do in any particular situation.
If you opt to pass on an organ, you might never get another chance. I understand the issue of not "having another shot" but sometimes you only get one shot.
Many patients are very ill by the time they are transplanted. However, no patient will get transplanted unless their physician gives the green light. For instance, if a person has an infection, that organ will not go to him/her. The potential recipient is notified only after the personal physician says it's OK.
You are right about the surgery, the anti-rejection meds and the long recovery. However, people do not stay on high doses of meds for a long time. The doses are reduced, and many meds are eventually eliminated altogether. In addition, part of the med protocol are antibiotics and antivirals.
The other thing I want to point out is that donor organs that are diseased or have some other anatomical problem will not be transplanted. So, if someone w/lyme has heart disease, the damage done to that heart should be apparent...even to those docs who don't believe in Lyme. I would also think the same would hold true for the liver.
I haven't heard about any research on organ donors who have lyme, etc. and the outcome in transplanted patients. And, I'm betting we won't hear anything on that for awhile. It isn't clear to me whether a kidney, cornea, skin, etc. donated from someone w/lyme would cause the recipient to contract lyme.
Despite the facts, many docs still do not believe in lyme and co. so would not even think to test an organ for these things. And, even if they were to test the organs, the timeframe is too long, and the organ would not be viable.
Having lyme and co wouldn't necessarily rule out receiving a transplant (especially since they are not recognized to begin with!)
The biggest roadblock to receiving a transplant is the lack of donors.
As someone who's been through this, I obviously feel strongly about the issue.
Before you all decide to not donate, I would ask that you speak to your docs and see what they have to say. It would be interesting to hear their perspectives.
Posts: 214 | From where ticks flourish | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Lymetoo, I don't know the answer to that question. I haven't come across any literature about lyme acquired through transplant. Obviously, a lot of research still needs to be done on lyme and cos.
Your conclusion is logical though, b/c it can be acquired through bodily fluids and the spirochetes have been found in the brain, heart, etc. But if a donor has lyme, does that mean the recipient will automatically get the disease? That's the question.
If it was a matter of life and death, I'd still take my chances with a kidney from someone w/lyme.
Posts: 214 | From where ticks flourish | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Yes, YOU may want that choice but if we give our organs, others will NOT have that choice. They won't KNOW they are getting a contaminated organ.
and I doubt you'll ever find confirmation or literature about Lyme and transplants. We must police ourselves.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Melanie Reber
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3707
posted
You all may want to read the links in the above post that Betty provided for answers here. Yes, TBDs have been passed to others through transplants.
Erythema migrans in solid-organ transplant recipients. Maraspin V, Cimperman J, Lotric-Furlan S, Logar M, Ruzic-Sabljic E, Strle F. Clin Infect Dis. 2006 Jun 15;42(12):1751-4. Epub 2006 May 5.
Department of Infectious Diseases, University Medical Centre Ljubljana, Ljubljana, Slovenia.
Six adult solid-organ transplant recipients who had chronic drug-induced immunosuppression and who presented with solitary erythema migrans were treated with antibiotics administered at the same dosage and for the same duration used for the treatment of early, localized Lyme borreliosis in immunocompetent patients. The patients had a smooth course of illness and a favorable outcome but did not develop a measurable borrelial serum antibody response.
"Other conditions that may prevent registration are having a serious bleeding problem, a serious breathing problem such as chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), heart disease, hepatitis B or C, serious or chronic kidney problems, Lyme disease, or having active pulmonary tuberculosis (TB) within 2 years of potential registration."
-------------------- Let us fight with peace. Posts: 90 | From Niles, Ohio | Registered: Aug 2009
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
I appreciate the kind words Lymetoo. Any other thoughts?
quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo:
quote:Originally posted by AliG: Originally posted by seekhelp:
We assume Lyme due to a small lab in California pointing out a 31 or 39 KdA on a WB.
Please speak for yourself.
Seek .. If this is how you feel, then you may as well stop treatment. You don't really think you have Lyme anyway. You won't even work with your LLMD.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
cactus and kathy,
thank you for each of you sharing your touching stories from 1ST HAND ORGAN TRANSPLANT to a friend of one who then raised her daughter as your foster daughter!!
each of you touched our souls .... hugs/kisses to you both
seekhelp,
i agree with alig
"Seek .. If this is how you feel, then you may as well stop treatment. You don't really think you have Lyme anyway. You won't even work with your LLMD. "
you're just wasting your and our time here if this is how you feel, and your posts indicate that daily... so sad to constantly see your glass half EMPTY vs half FULL....
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Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18524
posted
If it is in the blood it is in the organs. All tissue, and infective as such. But there is no
such thing as chronic lyme. I guess the people that had this were all asymptomatic and went on
in life as if nothing was slowly killing them? Are they also going to tell us E coli has nothing to do with lyme.
There was one strict anaerobe, Eubacterium limosum, implicated in a fatal bacterial
infection during the 4-year reporting period; this fatality occurred in FY2005. The remaining
bacteria are facultative anaerobes.
Since FY2006, the number of reports of fatal microbial infections associated with apheresis
platelets has remained unchanged (Figure 4). This finding is consistent with an overall decrease in
the number of bacterial infections associated with apheresis platelets since FY2001 (Figure 5).
Table 4: Microbial Infection by Implicated Organism, FY 2005 through FY 2008
*Four Babesia microti and one probable Babesia MO-1 species
Figure 4: Microbial Infection by Implicated Blood Product, FY 2005 through FY 2008
Figure 4: Microbial Infection by Implicated Blood Product, FY 2005 through FY 2008
Red Blood Cells microorganisms: S. marcescens (1), E. coli (1), Y. enterocolitica (1), B. microti (9), B. MO1(1)
Pooled Platelets microorganisms: S. aureus (1), E. coli (1), Streptococcus dysgalactiae (1)
Platelets Pheresis microorganisms: S. aureus (4), S. marcescens (1), S. lugdunensis (1), S. epidermidis (2), E. limosum (1), E. coli (1), M. morganii (1), K. oxytoca (1)
Figure 5: Bacterial Infection by Apheresis Platelets, FY 2001 through FY 2008
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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AliG
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9734
posted
Here's an awful thought....
What about all the people who are infected & misdiagnosed that might unknowingly donate their organs.....those who've been told they do not have Lyme disease because they are not "CDC positive" on a Western Blot test?
It's not as though they have time to screen organs, to look for borrelia, before transplanting them. Time is of the essence in such surgeries for the organs to remain viable.
I wonder how many of the people who failed to recover after transplants may have actually received organs from unknowingly infected donors....or been unknowingly previously infected themselves.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to look for infecting organisms in the remaining tissue after organs are harvested. Perhaps if patients were treated with Doxycycline, along with anti- rejection meds, they might have a better long-term survival rate.
This is all so horribly disturbing to think about. I hate to think about how many people suffer as a result of the misunderstanding and dissemination of misinformation surrounding tick-borne disease.
I sincerely hope they come up with better testing soon.
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
yes, this has been quite post with stories coming from ALL sides, and some really nasty posts from others....
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I never thought this thread would be so long. I understand why as I have read.
Thank you everyone for all the wonderful information.
*********I thought they gave everyone antibiotics after any surgery or operation . ***************
-------------------- Let us fight with peace. Posts: 90 | From Niles, Ohio | Registered: Aug 2009
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blinkie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14470
posted
I agree, this was hard for me to accept as well. I have a good friend that had a liver transplant. If not for it, she would be dead now. I think about that and it hurts that I can't save a life in this way.
But, I have jsut shifted focus. I can give people life in other ways. We all have gifts to give, we can all save lives. It's jsut that some people can save lives by giving organs and blood and others have to find other ways.
Really...you can give someone life. Just being a friend to someone in need or picking up medications for the elderly could save their life.
I think I have saved some lives just by getting them diagnosed with lyme and getting them a Dr.
Posts: 1104 | From N.California | Registered: Jan 2008
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
yeah, i found out almost immediately that i couldn't donate blood or organs anymore. sad thing was tho, i had been doing it for years, i mean the blood donating thing.
i try not to think that i could have given somebody lyme, cause i'd go crazy with guilt. i just have to put it aside and accept that i didn't know and honestly meant no harm,but that doesn't help.
it's a heavy burden but at least since i found out, i don't do it anymore.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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