Two Doctors Use Lumbrokinase to Help Conquer Lyme Disease -- Marty Ross, M.D.: I Use It in My Toughest Cases --
I'm an integrative medicine doctor who set up and ran, as medical director, the nation's first publicly funded integrative medicine clinic in
Kent, Washington. My practice partner is Tara Brooke-Nelson, a naturopath with a degree from Bastyr University. Both of us are very interested in the idea of bacterial biofilms as one
phenomenon that blocks the ability of some of our patients to get well.
We are both using lumbrokinase to help break up the biofilms in patients who don't seem to improve on antibiotics or herbal antimicrobials
alone. I lean more in the direction of antibiotics for Lyme disease because they have more of a proven track record than herbs, but
some of my patients prefer not to use conventional pharmaceuticals or just can't tolerate them. In that case I use one or more of four herbal antimicrobials: cumanda, andrographis, teasel, and cat's claw.
I prescribe one 20 milligram pill of lumbrokinase two times a day. I recommend this for patients who have been stalled for a while on more straightforward treatment and are not improving.
I generally start to see improvement once I add in the lumbrokinase. I will even see herxheimer reactions when we finally add it in. -- Gary Sconyers, N.D.: It's Very Effective --
I'm a naturopathic doctor in Texas who uses lumbrokinase in all my lyme patients. I give patients up to 10 lumbrokinase capsules a day, in divided doses, three times a day. I also use
nattokinase, in amounts ranging from 250 to 500 milligrams a day. In our most difficult lyme cases, lumbrokinase seems to work the best. I also use carinvora, and herbal antimicrobials. I use herbs for liver detoxification. I recommend
dietary changes. I had a lady in here who'd had lyme disease for twenty years. She had tried everything, and suffered from head to toe joint
pain, brain fog and gut issues. She had gotten to the point where she'd given up. Now she is doing better than she has in decades.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nothing new. Many of us have hypercoagulation and this will help.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
| IP: Logged |
Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
It's not new to me but others may not know. Also, they are addressing using it for bio film.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I really think this product works. Hubby is up to 4 Lumbrokinase daily now. He is still taking the Vitalzym which has the serapeptase in it (4 daily), but adding in the lumbrokinase has stopped his dizzyness and feeling like he wasn't getting enough oxygen to his brain. He says it helps with headaches and the brain swelling feeling and cognitive issues as well.
Just added 1 nattokinase daily as well this weekend as we are waiting on a supplement order. I think a combo of various enzymes is more helpful than large doses of a single enzyme.
The best price I have found is the Allergy Research brand from either Vitacost or Vitamin Shoppe -- 30 capsules for 23.99 If you sign up at Extrabux.com you can get a rebate of 7% off all orders from both of those companies.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
I agree, one definitely needs a combination of different proteolytic enzymes.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
Abx, thanks so much for posting this. Have you personally used this product? Any known side effects that you are aware of?
Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Hi Gary,
No, I have not used this product ( but I know it's a very good one) but have used wobenzym in high doses ( 8 tablets three times a day, plus Hemex heparin protocol when I had lyme. I still use a product called neprinol that contains proteolytic enzymes plus nattokinase.
I don't have a problem with coagulated blood any more and my fibrinogen levels are very good, so I just take Neprinol as part of my preventative health protocol and it works fine for my situation.
I don't know of any side effect and highly doubt that there are any, only benefits.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Abxnomore ,
Thanks for this article. I've read about his before and forgot to copy it to my file for study. The timing is perfect as I am pulling together some changes in my approach.
--
JamesNYC ,
Lumbrokinase can be bought in many places. There is no requirement for anyone to purchase at the site. And these are not the only ones explaining the benefits of this.
Often, when a product is offered at a site, it is for the convenience of the patient - and knowing that that particular product has been inspected for quality. However, there are places this can be obtained.
Not all sites that offer products are shady. Some actually do have the health of the patient in mind. They cannot all be painted with the same brush. Asking first, does what they say have some value? and reading what others (doctors and patients) have written about it - and comparing sources of availability and quality- all that helps in the decision process.
Researching the reputation of the authors always helps. I happened to have read from articles / or seen video lectures of one of the doctors mentioned, so I knew of her solid reputation.
I have taken ARG products before and find them to be of very good quality.
However, regarding the doctors in the article - well, ARG is not their own site. ARG has presented the doctors' experience to educate. This is a good thing and, again, this can be purchased elsewhere, or not at all. I'm glad to read all I can about what has helped others in any way. -
[ 09-28-2009, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
Serrapeptase - 60 abstracts (more can be found in other articles by LLMDs and LL NDs) -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
My LLMD is Dr. R (in the article), and one thing the article didn't mention is that Dr. R says you need to take lumbrokinase at least one hour away from food or other supplements/meds in either direction.
It makes it rather difficult to schedule, at least for me, since I snack all day long.
Also, I have to say that I did not notice improvement upon adding the lumbro. However, my case has been very difficult. (Am starting IV abx tomorrow.)
The final downside to lumbrokinase is that it's pretty expensive, so I suggest shopping around on the internet to find the best price.
-AnnaL
Posts: 398 | From By the Salish Sea | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nattokinase will definitely thin the blood, and might causing bleeding problems. If you don't have hypercoagulation, might be careful with it.
Don't know if lumbrokinase does the same thing or not as far as thinning the blood. Anyone know?
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
Lumbrokinase definitely acts as an anticoagulant.
I was told to stop taking it before my PICC placement, as it could cause extra bleeding.
Also, I got a tattoo while on lumbro, and that was a mistake. I bled quite a bit and lost a *lot* of the ink. So a month or so later I took a break from the lumbro to get the tattoo touched up. (Looks great now, BTW.)
So, yes, if you have bleeding issues, check with an LLMD before starting lumbro!
Posts: 398 | From By the Salish Sea | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
All proteolytic enyzmes should be taken on an empty stomach or else they will be used to digest your food and won't do what they are supposed to do. They are much too expensive for that.
You have to wait two hours before you ingest anything and they have to be taken several times a day. Dosing should be left up to a medical professional. Snaking all day is not healthy and will not help you get healthy.
You would have to be taking very high doses of nattokinase to have bleeding problems. I've been taking it for years and never have had any problems, only good results but it will clean up your blood and break down fibrin and take care of sticky blood.
No one should be getting a tatoo. They are full of harmful industrial solvents and heavy metals and most especially while one has lyme. You may be wasting your money on the Lumbrokinase, if you are not following senseable practices about how to care for yourself while having such a serious illness.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey guys are lumbrokinase, wobenzyme and serrapeptase essentially same thing? Maybe anyone know the difference?
Posts: 856 | From MA | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I was hoping I wouldn't have to defend myself in this thread, but...sigh.
1) Snacking--healthy snacks!--is really helpful since I have hypoglycemia. If I go very long without eating, I get shaky, dizzy, and then pass out. It's not pretty. I've lived with this my entire life. I know how to handle it.
2) If you don't want a tattoo, don't get one. My tattoos (yes, multiple) and piercings have been a part of my personal healing journey on a spiritual and emotional level. It's out of the scope of the thread to go into this any futher, so let's just let it go.
-AnnaL
Posts: 398 | From By the Salish Sea | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Happy to know you are eating healthy snacks. I understand that is what is required with hypoglycemia. Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Anna,
Point taken about choice. And the tone of voice from that other post above may have been a kind one. I'm sure everyone is just looking out for you.
Are you also taking good liver support (milk thistle, etc.?) as there are some harsh chemicals in tattoo ink - and heavy metals.
If you can take the right supplements, at least that might offer you some protection. Solvents and heavy metals are a particular challenge with lyme. And lyme attacks the liver so it's harder for the body to get that back out.
Fish oil may also help protect brain/nerve fibers from uptaking heavy metals that float around even just in the treatment of lyme. The lyme bacteria holds on to heavy metals and when the lyme dies off, more is circulating in the body.
There are whole threads on how to help with metals but I'm kind of toast right now so can't think of the best one to list.
Good luck. ---------
You might ask your tattoo artist about the ink used - then you'll know what steps to take regarding supplements that might be helpful. Perhaps it is better than this time last year:
The FDA has launched an investigation into the chemicals contained in tattoo and permanent makeup inks, as well as their potential health consequences. . . .
One of the chemicals known to be used in tattoo ink is thimerosal, also called thiomersal, an organic compound containing ethylmercury.
In the US, thimerosal is commonly included in tattoo inks, vaccines . . . Mercury is a well-known neurotoxin . . . . -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
Good point about liver support! Luckily, I've got plenty of liver support on board. I've been tested for heavy metals (I grew up about 10 miles away from a Superfund lead mining site.)
Surprisingly, my heavy metal load was really low. Slightly elevated lead, but still within "normal" parameters. Even so, I'm detoxing metals. I figure all those years of playing in and around toxic water probably add up to a need to detox.
And to bring this full circle back to the topic of the thread... I think lumbrokinase and other enzymes can help with supplement and medication penetration.
If you've got hypercoagulation, the enzymes can help thin out your blood so the stuff we're taking (antibiotics, herbs, supplements, detox agents) has an easier time traveling around in the body.
And of course, if it breaks down biofilms, then the abx can more easily get to the germs!
Posts: 398 | From By the Salish Sea | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
Lumbrokinase is derived from a certain type of earthworm. It is a paradox that the enzyme breaks up bloodclots and helps improve bloodflow since when you cut earthworms in two pieces they can regenerate and do not bleed to death. I am pretty sure the Chinese give an IV form of lumbrokinase to stroke victims.
Nattokinase is made from fermented soybeans using a certain type of yeast I think. The Japanese originated this product.
Wobenzym, Vitalzym etc are a blend of enzymes. Originally from Germany. Many of the enzymes are the same ones as in Pancreatin (amylase, lipase and protease). Others include bromelain (from pineapple) and papain (from papaya). Wobenzyme does not include serrapeptase but Vitalzym does.
Hubby used heparin for a couple of years (5000 units 2 or 3 times per day) -- tried IV, shots and even oral lozenges compounded. Actually think Lumbrokinase works better, but of course that is not a prescription product and can get expensive out of pocket.
Hubby actually took the Vitalzym at higher doses (6 daily) for a year or so before adding in the Lumbrokinase. With Vitalzyme and Wobenzyme those would be contradicted if a person has gastritis.
Plese start any of these enzymes at a low dose and work up gradually. Hubby had a really bad experience with high dose Wobenzyme years ago before he started antibiotics.
Personally I do not think any of these enzymes work on biofilms. I think there is a misunderstanding as to the difference between biofilms and fibrin or fibrinogen in the blood. I could be wrong, but I thought biofilms included a mineral componenet (either calcium or magnesium) which is not part of fibrin or fibrinogen. The enzymes digest the fibrin or fibrinogen which often surrounds bacteria or viruses but I don't think they can dissolve minerals.
The Hemex test most used with tickborne patients is the ISAC panel -- Immune System Activation of Clotting. It measures fibrin and fibrinogen by 3 or 4 different markers.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Seibertneurolyme, great thanks for your detailed explanation! Extremely helpful! Lumbrokinaze is pricey though
quote: Personally I do not think any of these enzymes work on biofilms. I think there is a misunderstanding as to the difference between biofilms and fibrin or fibrinogen in the blood. I could be wrong, but I thought biofilms included a mineral componenet (either calcium or magnesium) which is not part of fibrin or fibrinogen.
The enzymes digest the fibrin or fibrinogen which often surrounds bacteria or viruses but I don't think they can dissolve minerals.
You are right about biofilms containing other materials , but If they digest fibrin it causes the superstructure to weaken .
I personally dont think they are powerful enough to really digest considerable amount of biofilms , and doubt they could digest any intracell biofilms at all ( and those would be responsible for l-forms persistence) . I am thinking their action is more synergistic - improving blood flow - better abx penetration, and weakening bacteria somewhat by its fibrine action
mojo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9309
posted
A lady in my support group has been suffering leg pain and joint pain for years. This stopped immmediately after taking Lumbrokinaise and she's very happy lady!
I take it about an hour before breakfast and then before bedtime on an empty stomach and I can feel the effects.
Posts: 1761 | From USA | Registered: May 2006
| IP: Logged |
Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Dear Friends,
Seibertneurolyme's discussion of the different types of enzyme products is fantastic!!
ANY of them needs to be taken at least 30 minutes before eating or two hours after. Otherwise, they are used for digesting food.
My LLMD told me that lumbrokinase in high doses can reverse stroke damage, and that lumbrokinase specifically works on the blood vessels in the brain better than any other enzyme product. That's why he tells anyone with neurolyme symptoms to take it.
I took it myself for many months, then got his OK to switch to something less pricey.
My husband takes Vitalzyme, a combo enzyme product that is the least expensive for the potency. He's tried pretty much every one on the market.
My personal favorite for handling hypercoagulation (you know--when you get your blood drawn, and they can hardly get enough out of you?? Or it kind of reluctantly glumps into the tube??) is Rechts Regulat, a product from Germany that Dr. K's store, Biopure, carries.
Dr. K says, in his Lyme treatment guidelines, that Rechts Regulat is the BEST.
It's very difficult to find in the U.S. at all, except for Dr. K's store.
Now, I only take a teeny bit of it daily, and my hypercoagulation situation is HANDLED! I started with a teaspoon or two a day. It's pretty expensive--about $90 a bottle. It lasts only a month or two at the "recommended" dose, but lasts for months and months (refrigerated) for me now.
Systemic enzymes eat the fibrin in the blood vessels and reverse hypercoagulation. It seems to me that this would help with circulation, getting more blood and oxygen to tissues, getting more toxins out, etc.
Also helps with heart disease--the enzymes eat the plaque in the blood vessels that narrows the arteries and that breaks off, causing heart attacks.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
I asked in a previous post but no responses so far so I'll repeat my question.
As far as I know from all my recent blood tests I do not have any issues with thick blood.
My main issues are neuro and stomach pain. If a person doesn't have thick blood should they avoid lumbrokinase? How will this benefit me if I take it?
Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Dear Gary,
According to my LLMD, as I stated above your question, anyone with neuro symptoms would benefit from Lumbrokinase, as it specifically opens up the very tiny capillaries in the brain, allowing healing to occur there.
Lumbrokinase is not taken as a blood thinner. If you were taking some prescription blood thinner, then it might be a problem.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
Cass,
Thanks for your response. I will look into this some more. I'm definitely having neuro symptoms that have been going on for a few weeks now. Anything that will help that I'm all for it.
I'm not on any antibiotics at this time, so I don't suppose that matters, right?
Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Dear Gary,
As for antibiotics, I am not a doctor and can't tell you what to combine with what.
I had vertigo, dizziness, and tinnitus (as well as infrequent seizures) as my "neuro" symptoms. I have no idea what yours are.
All I can relay to you is his statement that Lumbrokinase works specifically on the brain, and is used in high doses to stop and reverse stroke damage. The action of systemic enzymes (including Lumbrokinase) is to "eat" fibrin in the blood vessels, opening them up.
Please do look into this more for yourself!
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic