posted
Cane, do a search here, you will find much discussion of all types.
Posts: 872 | From New York City | Registered: Jun 2008
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canefan17
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No NO James. I want to talk about it with you guys.
I think people are missing th big picture with Vitamin D levels.
Vitamin D has 2 metabolites 25D 1, 25D
A basic vitamin panel will not tell you these levels. You have to ask.
Ok...
In Lyme patients our Vitamin D is LOW because we have an unbalanced metabolite level. 1, 25D and 25D.
The bacteria has created this. If you had your 1, 25D level tested you'd see it was extremely HIGH.
Why is it high?
Because the bacteria wants it to be. Vit D is an immune suppressor. If the bacteria can raise these levels (1, 25D) then it can create a more favorable living environment. It can spread, reproduce, and be happy.
The big confusion with Vitamin D stems from a couple things. 1) Dr's don't check those 1, 25D levels. Most don't. If they did they would say, "Hmmm something isn't right."
2) Any Doctor who has put their patients on Vit D supps or sunlight, etc has gotten instant feedback from the patient that "I feel so much better with the Vit D or getting the sunlight."
And thy are right. The person is temporarily relieved. These feelings don't last long. Behind the scenes the bacteria is using this burst i Vitamin D against you.
So that same patient feels sick days, weeks, even months later and they don't know why. "I was taking my Vit D"
Right?
When will people open their eyes to the big picture.
This is scientific fact. And, IN FACT, I challenge all of you to have your 25D and 1, 25D levels checked.
After you see that your 1, 25 D is abnormally high... maybe we'll talk more in detail.
: )
I'm on a roll tonight. Ii know this is gonna **** some people off on here.
But hey... I'm on yalls side.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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Lymeorsomething
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quote:Originally posted by canefan17: If you had your 1, 25D level tested you'd see it was extremely HIGH.
Cane, this is not always true or reproducible in lyme patients.
And I think a lot (maybe most) of the people on the board are savvy about D issues....
-------------------- "Whatever can go wrong will go wrong." Posts: 2062 | From CT | Registered: Jul 2008
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canefan17
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posted
It's not always true because the Labs like LabCorp don't correctly preserve the sample.
The sample MUST be frozen. From the the body to the lab.
LabCorp thaws out there samples... this is where the 1, 25D readings become skewed.
You have to INSIST that they freeze the samples. Especially before sending out to the labs. Must be frozen and stay frozen.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
Hey Cane I don't know what your selling but I'm not buying.
From the beginning of my chronic lyme illness,my Vitamin D blood tests have always tested low, off the charts low.
Dr Marshall claim is this:
The two hormones critical to this inflammatory process are Angiotensin II and the seco-steroid 1,25-dihydroxyvitamin-D.
Blockade of Angiotensin II weakens these bacteria to the point where they can be more easily killed, and reducing the 1,25-D makes it harder for the bacteria to slip in and out of the cells they have infected.
We use the Angiotensin Receptor Blocker "Olmesartan Medoxomil" (Benicar/Olmetec/Votum), dosed approximately every 6 hours, to blockade the Angiotensin II receptors in the inflamed tissue.
The seco-steroid 1,25-D is the active hormone resulting from sunlight on our skin, and the Vitamin D we ingest. Both these sources of 1,25-D have to be attenuated if these bacteria are to be killed.
First things first. Dr Marshall isn't an MD. As he says "I am a researcher with a PhD, not an MD, and I cannot treat patients directly.
I help their physicians understand the disease process, so that those physicians can work with the patients to cure the disease."
I wouldn't trust my health to this nut selling snake oil. It just doesn't make sense to me. Why don't you elaborate some more on your beliefs as to why you think this works. Can you back it up at all?
If he really believes his theories to be true why does he not publish his findings in "proper peer reviewed reputable scientific journals".
It is relatively easy to get scientific articles published even if you are contridicting what other people say The MP site says "In order to receive counseling on this study site and be included in the cohort of study subjects, members (or their caregivers) must meet the following criteria...."
"Failure to meet these criteria will exclude members from the study at any time and mandate they rely on their doctor alone for information and support."
One of these criteria is "-Acceptance of the validity of the Marshall pathogenesis."
From the research I've done no one could accept the validity of his pathogenesis because his immuno-pathological explaination has not been scientifically validated, and his theories on vitamin D are actually contridicted by the majority of scientific resarch and "peer reviewed" medical opinion.
Please do research outside the MP site Please discuss with you GP (and any consultant treating your disorder) before stopping any medication that you are on Please be aware of the risks and symptoms associated with low vitamin D levels.
Karl A (Michigan-Go Blue)
-------------------- HERX is a Four Letter Word! Posts: 716 | From If you're going through hell, keep going......Winston Churchill | Registered: Apr 2007
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canefan17
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So because modern medicine hasn't validated the guys research means it's not possible?
Modern Medicine is the reason you and me are on this website right now.
So with all due respect... the fact that it hasn't been peer review published doesn't mean **** to me.
You reduce 1, 25D levels because it will bring your innate immune system back to life.
You know, the immune system we had when we started this fight? The one we LOST during the fight? And the one that is now harboring these bugs?
Just because your Vitamin D levels are low (25D) doesn't mean you need to supplement MORE.
It should be a sign that "hey something isn't right here. Why is my Vit D low."
And if you've read Marshall's extensive research you'd see it's an imbalance of 1, 25D and 25D. Which is found in every chronically ill patient (CWD bacteria) in the world.
It's inevitable. It's what makes the disease CHRONIC.
These CWD bacteria are sneaky *******s. Don't think for 2 seconds that they don't know what they are doing.
The only way to beat them is to get your innate immune system back on your side.
I mean that's the immune system that started the initial fight (First signs and symptoms)
The immune system that is fighting the bugs right now is your activated immune system. You know the one that created antibodies IgG's to fight the bacteria.
Unfortunately for us this immune system can not destroy the bacterial load. If it could we wouldn't be here right now. We'd be cured.
Open your eyes. A great researcher/scientist has stumbled upon some amazing AMAZING breakthrough stuff.
No coincidence that all of a sudden LLMD's (who attended the conference in DC 2 weeks ago) are starting to look into Vit D levels and Benicar.
Just ask your LLMD. And look at his initial reaction. They are starting to realize that Marshall was on to something.
By the way, the Marshall website has been flooded with new members. To the point where they have to add additional nurses/staff members.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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D Bergy
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posted
My wife felt much worse when her Lyme was bad and she was exposed to sunlight. It probably was not the vitamin D that caused this but the UV light killing some Lyme.
I believe this is usually the case with Lyme and sunlight exposure. Supplementing may produce a different reaction. I do not know because she has not supplemented D since I am not convinced one way or another on this question.
Dan
Posts: 2919 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Marnie
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posted
It is not a vitamin D problem.
Vitamin D is very very protective.
It is UV light exposure that is the problem.
In mice, infected with Bb, LIGHT exposure - UV = infection takes off.
Which wavelength in light does this?
It is important for us to figure out WHICH wavelength Bb likes... And which wavelength Bb does NOT like.
The MP - use of an arb drug (Benicar) in very high potentially kidney-damaging doses is impacting the cell wall of Bb.
What about the CWD form of Bb?
Just wait for a change in the barometric pressure to finish off Bb?
People have DIED on his protocol.
There are, IMO, much safer ways to attack Bb and not harm the body simultaneously.
And yes, it does involve ketones. A very specific ketone.
Our brain and our heart love ketones, but too many, too fast = kidney damage.
That is what happened with the ORIGINAL Atkin's diet.
The Johns Hopkins "ketogenic diet" has to be monitored very carefully because of potentially kidney damage (not completely reversible).
Go slow.
And no matter which treatment plan you chose...keep pumping in probiotics!
Okay...somebody's gonna want proof of the mice-lyme-UV link.
D Bergy
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posted
Thanks Marnie.
I have been under the wrong assumption on sunlight exposure. I noticed a similar reaction when starting to supplement my wife with magnesium.
This reaction faded away in time, but the reaction was similar as it is in sunlight exposure. Not sure why.
This clears up the matter for me, and I can add that when Lyme is significantly reduced, sunlight exposure no longer produces these symptoms. I am sure the same reaction is present, but the low amount of Lyme does not produce the symptom.
Dan
Posts: 2919 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Marnie
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Bb looks to EXPORT Mg (and Ca) and use Fe (transferrin gene (is a protein) = transport iron) AND glucose to build its biofilm. It is NOT unlike other pathogens that do the same!
Think of biofilm as pathogen - loaded thick mucous.
That biofilm is protective for Bb and his friends.
Biofilm is involved in "quorum sensing" i.e., how Bb(s) "talk" to each other...very simply put.
Now...biofilm can be impacted by oxygen levels (and EPA - specific omega 3 - impacts O2 levels)/HBO therapy AND by ultrasound.
This maybe how HBO therapy (40 + dives PLUS Pycnogenol 1mg per pound of body weight...all at once per day) works.
And the "ultrasound"...Rife.
I think whole body vibration also may impact the biofilm.
I believe there IS more than one way to cure lyme, but the treatments take considerable
TIME.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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canefan17
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posted
Marnie,
Benicar lowers your 1, 25D levels which in turns allows you innate immune system to begin eradicating those CWD bacteria.
And do you have any proof of people dying from MP?
Supposedly people have died from too much flagyl.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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canefan17
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posted
You guys truly believe UV light/sun kills bacteria?
Give me a break.
So let's all spend an hour a day in the sun and we'll eventually be cured.
Common sense people.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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D Bergy
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posted
Have you ever heard of Ultraviolet Blood Irradiation?
It is based on the premise that UV rays kill pathogens. UV treatment is also used for water purification and sewage treatment. Apparently is does not kill Borrelia, but that would be an exception to the rule.
Dan
Posts: 2919 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
My brother had very low vit D levels when he was debilitated at the time he was dxd with lyme.
He was put on massive amounts of D to raise the levels. He got much better. He has continued to improve.
My D and B12 levels have never been low.
I do not believe in the MP. I think it is bad medicine, I will not follow it.
Peer review is the ONLY ligit way to judge research. This is part of the Scientific Method. If not reviewed and critiqued, anyone can say anything without the burden of proof being on the person making the claim.
If you don't believe in peer review, fine--whatever. The rest of the civilization does. Science is built on it.
Do the MP if you want, but don't try to convince us that he's right.
I think you need to be introduced to Coltman and the two of you can have long debates on your research.
James
Posts: 872 | From New York City | Registered: Jun 2008
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canefan17
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posted
I'm not trying to convince you that he's RIGHT.
I just wanted to discuss it.
Does NOTHING that Marshall says make sense? Does he make any good points?
I'm just curious.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
I'm with you James NYC. MP is unproven scientifically..Show me something besides people on his web site that say they have been cured.
Other risks from doing his protocol:
Major risk of Addison Syndrome (5%-25% of CFS that complete the protocol)
Increased risk (100 300%) of Heart Attack
Increased risk (100+%) of Cancer (Breast, Colon and Prostate are well documented)
Increased risk (67+%) of Multiple Sclerosis
Increased risk (400+%) of Diabetes
Increased risk of Depression
Increased risk (500+%) of Osteoarthritis and Osteoporosis
Increased risk of nephrotic syndrome, schizophrenia and severe bipolar disorder.
Increased risk of Hyperparathyroidism
Increased risk of Crohn Disease and Sjogren's syndrome
Increased risk of Rheumatoid Arthritis
Increased risk of Systemic Lupus Erythematosus
May cause fetal and neonatal morbidity and death
Risk of Angioedema
No thank you. Cane all stick to antibiotics, and D-3 supplements.
KA
-------------------- HERX is a Four Letter Word! Posts: 716 | From If you're going through hell, keep going......Winston Churchill | Registered: Apr 2007
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- Do the MP while restricting D (if you can; some people fail even with benicar). I accept the fact that some people do have a D dysregulation. I think that this is Marshall's biggest contribution to us patients. However, the D dysreg issue is the most vulnerable too; it's complicated and not reconciled in a logical manner, at least according to people in this and other related topics;
- Take note of the supplement avoidance, as that may relate to biofilms (in terms of formation);
- Get off antibiotics...sooner than later! I have no question that they are not good for the body long term.
Let's talk about biofilms: how to find them, eliminate them and synergizing with both natural and script antimicrobials. Isn't that where the successes are found?!
This is just my take, of course. More later...
Cane, sorry to say -- you are rather zealous.
Stan, I was bed-ridden in 2004 when I started the MP. I am now doing better & better each day. And no one is ever cured, IMHO. Consider this stupid play on words:
"What happens in vagus, stays in vagus..."
Those of you that know Bb will understand my cruel joke. Please remember it! Pass it on. It will help you explain how many forms Bb has; how it evades the immune system and how it tunnels into cells and nerves of all kinds...
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Keebler
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posted
- Here's the link to do a search for what are probably dozens of expansive threads on this topic:
canefan17
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posted
Cold Feet,
So you did the MP for how long?
5 years?
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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canefan17
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posted
Stan,
We're at risk for all of that stuff to begin with.
WE HAVE A CWD BACTERIA IN OUR BODY. We are at risk for more than just those items you listed.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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Tincup
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posted
I heard down at the local drug store they were giving away medical licenses.
So I headed on down there and I've grabbed enough of them for all of us.
canefan17
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posted
Hey this is the fun part of being sick. We become Dr's.
I've learned so much about the body since becoming sick. haha
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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METALLlC BLUE
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posted
A lot of what we do to treat Lyme Disease isn't peer reviewed, including long term antibiotics beyond 2-3 years for infections we often can't prove we have.
There aren't many double blind placebo controlled trials in our favor, but that doesn't mean we should stop making attempts at recovery using antibiotics (Or other unproven means if you are conscientious of the risk).
I don't know if Dr. Marshall is right or wrong, but what I do know is some people have gotten better using his methods and some haven't (even when done correctly). Rife therapy is another unproven method in terms of modern peer reviewed literature. If we believe the story of Dr. Rife and the few studies he's done, and that's worked for some patients, then perhaps there is a reason that it's worth trying.
So, MP, Rife, Ozone, HBO, whatever -- if you do your homework, and you've explored and exploited options to the fullest, it's not unexpected that desperate people are going to try far out measures with less and less science supporting them. Can you blame them? I'd rather die trying to recover than die waiting for Dr. Steere, Wormser and Shapiro to "prove" Chronic Lyme does or doesn't exist.
I've said nothing and probably everything about how most of us feel when considering protocols, including the MP.
Proof went out the window a long time ago for most of us when we became infected. We can't even get positive blood tests half the time and the studies show sero-negativity is common.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
quote:Originally posted by canefan17: You guys truly believe UV light/sun kills bacteria?
Give me a break.
So let's all spend an hour a day in the sun and we'll eventually be cured.
Common sense people.
Actually, a combination of sunlight, diet, and exercise put mine into remission twice. The third time, same thing, but also had my amalgams out ... that time, good for 12 years.
Got bitten again and was worse than ever, so that simple protocol didn't work this time. I'm in remission now and supplement vitamin D to keep my immune system strong. I get sunshine when I can and use a Dr. Mercola tanning bed a couple times per week when I can't get the real thing (only for 5 min. each time).
When I was at my sickest, I couldn't last more than 20 min. in the sun or it would make me very ill.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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canefan17
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Cass A
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posted
Dear Friends,
After having seizures (!) while taking the Buhner herbal protocol at low doses, I decided that I needed to look into other options.
The MP, as it is attempting to go after a probable cause of some people having chronic illness, looked impressive to me.
In October 2006, my tests were 25-D 33 and 1,25 D 46. In June 2007, my tests were 25-D 16 and 1,25-D 33. In December 2007, my tests were 25-D 8, 1,25-D 72. In June 2008, they were 25-D 9, 1,25-D 38.
I have been restricting my Vit D intake, wear NoIR glasses when out, and try not to be out in the mid-day sun.
Overall, I feel these actions have benefited me.
I have not done the MP, but still have it out there as an option.
I have been under the care of an LLMD since February 2008, and took Mepron/Zith for almost a year.
Currently, I'm on Round 7 of Allergie-Immun drops and am taking the KPU supplements, as these also help prevent seizures.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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Marnie
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posted
Biofilms are easy to impact...they are impacted by ultrasound (google: biofilm ultrasound dental) OR increased oxygen levels.
Rife...HBO...
Hyponatremia (low blood sodium levels) can be a seizure trigger (my son).
Take sublingual B6 (P5P). Source Naturals makes it.
Otherwise your aldosterone level will go up and aldosterone comes FROM our HDL...our "good cholesterol"...not good. It also increases H SECRETION.
Increased hydrogen in the serum = what change in pH...raising.
Bb loves to exchange H for Na....so in some respects that is good, in other respects it is not good.
posted
Marnie, what are you talking about? You are forming the impression that people can eradicate biofilms!? It's not that simple, so please be more careful and less cryptic!
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Marnie
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posted
Yes...the use of ultrasound and oxygen CAN impact biofilms!
I suggest, Cold Feet you READ the following links before you tell me to be more careful.
In response to the transfer of Bb into a human where oxygen is abundantly used, Bb builds a biofilm to block oxygen which Bb does NOT want. And it uses the biofilm for "quorum sensing" (think of it as a way to talk to one another - chemically).
But oxygen under pressure (HBO)...
"Secondly, by targeting biofilm specifically, they felt the effects of their antibiotic *and* hyperbaric oxygen (HBO) therapies were markedly improved."
Why do you think our body responds to Bb by increasing ROS - reactive oxygen species?
It was posted HERE many months ago that someone on the MP did, in fact, die.
Sunlight DOES kill SOME pathogens...case in point...TB. Years ago...sanitariums.
Light is very powerful. We need light to survive. The life forms (deep in the ocean - no light) have different ways to get the energy they need (that for us comes from sunlight).
No sunlight = SAD. Seasonal affective disorder. Depression.
Sunlight does NOT kill Bb. Bb LOVES sunlight.
I would never lower cancer-protective vitamin D levels.
This stuff gets to me cause i did notice after taking probiotics that if felt a good deal better... now i gotta read some article that just claims that because its taking fighter cells from my die off region and surrounding the probiotics to check to see if they are a threat. way to burst my bubble - the probiotic response is only palliative.
-p
-------------------- Bit in March 2005. Posts: 58 | From Jersey | Registered: May 2008
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posted
to note none of the stories on the marshall protocol website ( success stories and progress reports) are that impressive for the lyme bunch. these guy's are still avoiding D, sunlight like the plague. notice how the people who really have great things to say about it are not lyme patients. understandable you can make some improvements on the protocol, but i doubt they'd be any more substantial then what you would get from pulsed antibiotics.
Does vitamin D act as a secosteroid? Maybe it does. First of all if people take something that makes them feel great overnight, while the feeling is exhilerating because you get a glimpse through a window to a time when you were 100% well, you have to wonder why you feel so great. to my way of thinking your immune system is at war, and any supplement that makes you feel better immediately (ie Vitamin D) is just calling for a cease fire for the meanwhile. i enjoy my ceasefires, but i know the battle will rage again. its all about balance. just support your immune system and take antibiotics (verdict still out on if large doses are immunosuppresent). the MP is extreme, not tested, far too drawn out and to my way of thinking those guys are building a tower of babble, the perfect cure to rid all pathogens from your system. good luck thats like trying to clean giant stadium with a tooth brush. (they'll be on the MP til they die)
-------------------- Bit in March 2005. Posts: 58 | From Jersey | Registered: May 2008
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Because the bacteria wants it to be. Vit D is an immune suppressor. If the bacteria can raise these levels (1, 25D) then it can create a more favorable living environment. It can spread, reproduce, and be happy."
Cane, are you implying that the cwd bacteria have actually thought this out? Do you suppose they discuss it humannet, their internet equivalent to lymenet? How can you tell if the bacteria are happy?
One man's meade is another man's poison, and anything can be a poison, it's simply a matter of concentration. Vitamin D restriction will help with some, not all, and it's up to the individual to figure it out for themselves. A whole lot of things affect the transformation of 25 OH D to the 1,25 form, and all testing needs to be interpreted taking as many of these factors into consideration, before removing a normally very healthy thing (Vitamin D) or adding a potentially toxic one (drug poisons). My two cents...
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
In August, I was out in the sun and water for hours every day, and I was almost symptom free. Then September hit and my symptoms were back with a vengence. Could this have been the heat, uv rays or vitamin d? Wish I was back in August!
Posts: 144 | From PA | Registered: Nov 2009
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Amanda
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Member # 14107
posted
Before I knew what was wrong with me, I had an intergartive MD (who was an endochronologist) check my D levels, she looked at all the forms, 25D, 1,25 D, etc...
All of those levels where low, VERY low, and they remained that way for over a year, and I most certainly did NOT feel better.
I track my immune cell counts every six weeks, and what I notice is that they go down in the fall and winter when I am not outside .
I think if you are one of those people who has sky high 1, 25D, then maybe you could benefit from the protocol.
There are several LLMDs that actually recommend taking extra Vitmamin D. Also, FYI, there have been some studies that show that higher Vitamin D levels help eradicate tuberculosis, another difficult bacterial infection.
So, my own thoughts on the matter are that the MP is not a cure all for every lyme patient. We are all so diffierent! What works for one, doesn't help another.
And this is basically the mentality we all are fighting with the medical establishment, i.e. that each disease will have a small number of cookie cutter approaches for treatments that will help every patient.
So my advice for people that are considering MP is to get all your Vitamin D levels checked, by someone that understands vitamin D, and if your levesl are normal or low, then I don't see that MP will help.
-------------------- "few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain Posts: 1008 | From US | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by canefan17: Just out of curiosity how many people here have investigated the MP?
Can we discuss a little bit about it?
Vitamin D 25D 1, 25D
Have people here had those 2 Vit D levels checked?
Does nobody here think that Dr. Marshall is onto something involving Vitamin D and our innate immune system?
I'd love to have a civil discussion about it.
Can you say Dr. Marshal-or does it have to be Dr. M ?
I just read this on another thread:
'Read "Terms & Conditions" at the bottom of the page.
This is what I found that is relevant:
5. You also agree not to post the last name, or the first name, of any person that treats Lyme disease. Instead, please use the first initial of the last name only, with the state, but not city. For example, Dr. B. in NY. This person's contact information should not be displayed on LymeNet. However, you may email this information. This is to protect those that treat Lyme and the Lyme community.
I think the person's website is part of their "contact information" which is not to be displayed. This is to protect those that treat lyme. "
btw-unbeknownst to me, my Vitamin D had tanked, and thankfully it was caught by an endocrinologist, so I was provided a script for it. My LLMD was not testing for it. I feel better taking it.
Posts: 365 | From Sylvania | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Well he isn't an MD, he has a Phd so yes use his full name Prof. Trevor Marshall.
-------------------- HERX is a Four Letter Word! Posts: 716 | From If you're going through hell, keep going......Winston Churchill | Registered: Apr 2007
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Trevor Marshall received his PhD in Electrical Engineering from the University of Western Australia in 1984.
He also possesses an undergraduate and a masters (1978) degree in Electrical Engineering.
Marshall contracted sarcoidosis in the 1970s.
As early as 1974, while teaching in Papua New Guinea, Marshall began to think that there was a connection between his exposure to light and flare-ups of his sarcoidosis symptoms.
In the decades that followed, he argued that the Vitamin D synthesis caused by incident radiation was playing a crucial role in driving sarcoidosis.
Marshall's theories are considered highly controversial. Criticism of the Marshall Protocol stems from an absence of controlled clinical studies that demonstrate the Marshall Protocol's efficacy.
To date, only one paper concerning Marshall's theories, written by Marshall himself, has been submitted for publication in a medical journal.
That paper explained a potential framework for Marshall's pathogen-based theory of disease, rather than providing evidence that this theory can be quantified in a laboratory or in clinical settings.
Much of what Marshall recommends also directly contradicts a large and growing body of evidence that supports the positive role of vitamin D in the human body.
Rosen and Bagwell, in their 2007 review of treatments for sarcoidosis, argued that Marshall's 2003 paper, "Antibiotics in sarcoidosis--reflections of the first year" has "serious deficiencies," and that the data has not been peer-reviewed nor the results quantified.
Dr. John Cannell of the Vitamin D Council spoke out against the Marshall Protocol in the April 2008 edition of his Vitamin D newsletter, stating that "No one in the vitamin D field takes [Marshall] seriously."
-------------------- HERX is a Four Letter Word! Posts: 716 | From If you're going through hell, keep going......Winston Churchill | Registered: Apr 2007
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Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Well, the "Vitamin D Council" is the cheering section promoting for people to take MORE Vitamin D and to get it put into nearly every food. These guys (about 10-12 of them) refer to each others' studies, like they were referencing God. I don't have any info on who funds them....
I would also look over the articles at the Bacteriality website, where many articles and presentations given at medical conferences are posted.
Personally, I know that MANY major breakthroughs in many different fields came from people without a degree in that area. Sometimes, it truly takes a person who has a different mind-set to see or create something that really works!
I can tell you that electrical engineering is much more results oriented than medicine, and definitely scientists in that area are looking for CAUSES, not band-aids for difficulties.
The work needs to stand or fall on its merits (meaning RESULTS)--like HBOT, Dr. B's guidelines, Rife, Salt/C, etc.
As stated above, not every protocol works for every person. Some people feel they've been harmed (or minimally not helped at all) by each of the above-mentioned treatment modes--in fact,that's the case for just about every treatment option discussed here at Lymenet. Attacking people for bringing them up or reporting what they've experienced is counter-productive.
An open, honest report on what was done, what happened, and what the results were is very, very valuable. Discussion of why it's that way, etc., is also valuable.
Links to studies--well, with BigPharma manipulation of study design, structure, and the reporting of results in so many instances--reference to the original data AND who paid for it would be helpful.
Certainly, not all studies are done with the scientific rigor we would like to believe.
Since Marshall doesn't treat anyone personally, but is the originator of a theory and treatment plan that some have used for Lyme, it seems perfectly OK to use his name.
As for Wikipedia, anyone can change any article. These articles can become an invisible battleground between supporters and opponents of any person, theory, or group. I would take value-judgements in Wikipedia with a grain of salt, at least.
Some very important theories and people and innovations have been silenced for years (some forever) due to vocal or even financial or physical attacks.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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D Bergy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9984
posted
I would agree that the fact he is not a doctor and that his specialty seems unrelated to the medical field is mostly irrelevant.
A person that is trained to think logically and intelligently can transfer that knowledge to any field of study.
Breakthroughs are often enough made by people that should not have made them. When they come about this way, it really peeves the people who are the experts. It usually takes years before they are acknowledged for the contribution, if ever.
I still have not seen much evidence that the Marshall Protocol works often enough for Lyme to warrant the risks involved. But everyone has to make there own decision on treatment, and all treatments have risks.
There seems to be some other elements to Lyme that make the Marshall Protocol less successful than it should be. Probably the very same elements that hinder all other treatments as well.
Dan
Posts: 2919 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
I think that denouncing someone's research the same way your -- LLMD/Researchers who support persistece -- are denounced (and have been for years) is not wise. There are no double blind placebo controlled studies demonstrating that long term antibiotics help Lyme Disease patients recover significant health. Dr. Fallon's study came the closest to shining a fraction of light on the possibility. So your leg to stand on isn't very stable either. It's only remotely legitimate because of circumstantial evidence, clinical experience, and the current knowledge of knowing the infection does in-fact persist in-spite of antibiotics. So the logic goes, if it persists, then prescribe longer term[Defined generally as 6 months and more by most LLMDs] (and stronger) antibiotics.
The MP has evidence in scientific literature to make the "leap" to hypothesize it's standing, it's not merely a quack concept. However, whether it will show itself strong enough to become theory will take time, and some of us don't have time to wait for double blind placebo controlled studies to prove our antibiotic treatments, nore do people who failed antibiotics have time to wait for the MP to be proven.
Assumptions aren't a bright idea no matter which scientific theories or hypothesis you consider.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
quote:The MP has evidence in scientific literature to make the "leap" to hypothesize it's standing, it's not merely a quack concept.
What evidence? I think I stated many times before that MP was initially very convincing looking ,but once I dug deeper not so. Main gripes - they avoid doing (or publishing?) lab tests which would prove their hypothesis right .
2nd I could not find any evidence in scientific literature for their certain speculations, and some things just do not look logical
I do think MP might work, but whether it is because of combo abx(it is pretty much just another combo abx protocol once you throw away vitd cover) or for other reason is what remains to be explained.
It is not easy protocol to do and you have to follow it for years, if MP is wrong and vitd is usefully you risk a lot of bad things (cancer ,osteoporosis ,etc) You would also have to avoid pretty much all supportive supplements - imho it is really really risky in case Marshall is wrong
Posts: 856 | From MA | Registered: Jul 2009
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
What I mean is the individual components of the protocol have logical "leaps" that can be made to hypothesize -- those individual components (most of them, have abundant research available. I.e. Benicare, Vitamin D, Minocycline, etc
I don't see a devious plan here. No profit or motives beyond a published paper on hypothesized experimental therapy.
It's insulting to science to dismiss ideas when someone publishes their work -- even if they only just began. (Not saying you're doing that), but it's clear that people are dismissive of this idea just like the IDSA and others are dismissive of us. People mock him, and don't take his work seriously. That's often one of the first indicators of a "new" idea. Even if wrong, it's not wise to think like this.
If he's wrong, the risks aren't anymore so than those who get sepsis, embolisms, allergic reactions, death, blood clots, tendon ruptures, brain damage, hepa, neuro, and renal failure and other toxicity/potential complications of treating Lyme Disease with long term antibiotic therapies.
Marshalls protocl opens patients up to the risk of what? Stopping immunsuppressive drug therapies (since his target is autoimmune conditions) that could lead to cancer and other opportunistic infections in favor of potential cancer or other deficiencies caused by Vitamin D, which most people already experience routinely in the Northern Hemisphere? Minocycline at low dose may cause minor side effects typical of base cycline drugs -- which have a strong proven track record in long term antibiotic therapies, and Benicare, a basic drug used across the spectrum with a solid safety record for lowering blood pressure.
I'm not saying anyone ought to use it, I'm just telling you that the hypothesis is reasonable and a solid scientific question with enough evidence to pose the question. That's what science is all about, asking questions, then experimenting both objectively and subjectively based on risk to benefit to see if results can be quantified.
If he's right, we've got everything to gain in the autoimmune community. If he's wrong, it can join the other poor quality options patients already have -- including long term antibiotics that are resulting in treatment failure for many people here. Why do we cling so tightly to antibiotic therapy? Because it's the first line of defense for this devious persistent infection. Curing it is a miracle. Remission is "fortunate" -- everything in between is desperation and frustration. People aren't going to ignore experimental ideas just because someone else is mocking them. Ask those who are mocking if they've got a better idea. Their answer will be a simple deflection as they list off the standard conventional methods we all have already heard -- and which often fail so many.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Dear Friends,
Thank you for some very sane, well-reasoned comments about the MP's fundamentals.
What would help people decide whether to do it or not would be personal stories of personal experiences with it.
The menu of possible treatments is pretty large (in no particular order):
Rife HBOT antibiotics (various kinds and doses) treating co-infections parasite treatments removal of amalgam fillings other dental treatments allergie-immun drops foot detox pads and other external body detox light therapies, including Bionic 880 diet changes exercise KPU Marshall Protocol yeast and mold treatments herbs--several different protocols Salt/C and on and on.
Each person needs to make an informed decision about the risks they're willing to take with treatment, how much "herxing" they can tolerate, the time frame of treatment (unfortunately, most often understated), and so forth.
Honest personal stories relating to symptoms, experiences during treatment, and treatment results--given over time as things actually happen--is most helpful.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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I guess Garth Nicholson can be put into the same catorgory...is he an MD or just a Phd?
I think they understand how disease that are molecular based mimic the immune system tricking it so it thinks it is part of it....
what I find amazing in this is the link to carcinoma....which in my case well just not sure it's in or out...you can say what you want agree with it or disagree...it's your call...do low levels of Vitamin D = cause for cancer????...I do not think Marshall is all about the Vit D unless they are elevated in many chronic illnesses there are low levels of Vit D
Has anyone heard about or had any expierence with the VDR antagonist he mentions in this clip? OLMESARTAN MEDOXOMIC?
[ 11-17-2009, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: Raymond ]
-------------------- Raymond Leave the gun, take the cannolis Posts: 214 | From Rhode Island | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
People try to discredit Dr.Marshalls work by saying his full background is in electrical engineering. Here is quote from Dr.Marshall about his background. Do you know what Biomedical engineering is? They seek out new treatments for diseases. His wife has a degree in pharmacology.
Dr. Trevor Marshall, Ph.D.: I graduated Bachelor of Engineering (w/w statistics) from the University of Adelaide in 1974. I spent a year in Papua New Guinea teaching at the University of Technology in Lae, and then spent 6 years teaching at Curtin University in Western Australia. During that tenure I received my Masters Degree and commenced my PhD Research at the University of Western Australia, in Biomedical Engineering.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
Correct engineering just doesn't have to do with designing a new septic system.....ex: at MIT in MA....a degree program there is engineering...in DNA....SAME LINE
I am sure by now most have read the clip/story about the lady that went to I believe India for embryonic stem cell transplant to cure her lyme disease....who would have thought that...makes me wonder if autologus or allogenic stem cell will help us and of course how true the story is
-------------------- Raymond Leave the gun, take the cannolis Posts: 214 | From Rhode Island | Registered: Nov 2007
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Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Dear Raymond,
I haven't tried Olmesartin yet--I have about a month's supply sitting on top of my refrigerator, if I decide to give the MP a go.
What truly intrigued me is that the "VITAMIN D" levels everyone is getting tested for is the 25-D, which is NOT what the body actually uses, so it is NOT the active form.
The active form is 1,25-D.
This can be TOO HIGH. On lab tests, when you get this test done, the report will tell you if it is OUT OF NORMAL RANGE.
Mine was!
This, on its own, has a list of toxic symptoms.
But, my 25-D was "normal." So, under usual circumstances, I would have been told to continue taking large doses of Vitamin D, even though I clearly had symptoms of Vitamin D toxicity.
This is not even going into what the MP is about, in terms of dealing with the hundreds of Vitamin D receptors (VDR) and so on.
It just seems to me that people could be pushing their 1,25-D into the stars and harming their health, because this value is not being tested for either in research or in giving out medical advice.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by canefan17: If you had your 1, 25D level tested you'd see it was extremely HIGH.
Cane, this is not always true or reproducible in lyme patients.
And I think a lot (maybe most) of the people on the board are savvy about D issues....
Im not! This is all new to me. Im taking a mag cal supplement with vitamen d. Everytime i test- regular test, my d level is low, or has been 2 x.
Also could you guys maybe speak to me in simpler words when explianing as im not at all on your level, with all this.
I mean i see it like this: should i not be ordering a "sad" ( lol) light for getting enough light rays? should i not be taking vitamen d? If theres not a clear cut anwser beside ask your llmd ( i cant get into one yet) or difference of opinion could you itleast give me suggestions? = ) much appreciated. And much love to you all. your local 27 yr old lyme paitent who is extremely confused treating with a very nice doc who hasnt said what else to do because i dont think he knows but helps me out to write the scipt for my abx.
XOXO
What should i know, please fill me in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
also if you dont want to stir up discussion and you think you could help me please pm me. I live in the ri area, if you know a doc i could get into thats not on the list or quicker ways to get into certain ones please also hit me up.
Posts: 92 | From ri | Registered: Aug 2009
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I couldn't agree with you more as the vast majority of vita D research is just focusing on vita d levels being low not looking at the fact that it probably is low because it is being converted into 1.25 at a high rate which is keeping people ill.
I am on the MP and have gotten good results but what I would like to see most of all is for a lyme researcher to work with it and do even more extensive research on lyme and the MP.
Trevor takes the attitude one treatment fits all diseases and I think with lyme it would speed up peoples recovery up if they did a special MP lyme protocol as we have special needs that sarc patients don't. I have added two things to the MP that have helped that don't interfere with how the MP works just enhance it. Brian Rosner was the first to suggest using rife with mp as he had people coming to him saying hey this combo is really working for me and it worked for Brian also.
I will also like to add that the herxing that I got from the MP was way worse then anything a LLMD threw at me drug wise. Nothing I couldn't handle but the herxing from the MP made me really realize I was dealing with a monster in me.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Minocyciline
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
low levels of vitiman D.....as mine....severely low....means chronic illness, is it just lyme...I don't think I'm that naive to think that....as far as that Olmesartin goes I just like it to be atep forward as he does in that video mention lyme......hmmpppp
-------------------- Raymond Leave the gun, take the cannolis Posts: 214 | From Rhode Island | Registered: Nov 2007
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