I am confused with the repeated Westerb Blot test. My LLMD keeps treating me with antibiotics based on repeated positive result in the Western Blot test. My LLMD told me that I need the treatment untill my IGM becomes negative. However, my family doctor and my neurologist told me that one will be lifetime Lyme positive (IGG and IGM) as long as he/she gets lyme once. Who is right? Anybody can explain this?
Posts: 2 | From Glen Mills, PA 19342 | Registered: Sep 2009
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"If a borreliosis Western blot is going to be positive, it is usually the first one that is positive. The second blot is the next most likely to be positive, and so on, until the fifth blot.
After that, the curve levels off for conversion to positive. This is based on research I presented in Bologna, Italy in 1994. Some patients had borrelia-associated antibodies finally show on their tenth Western blot! Two Western blots from a reliable lab usually gives the answer.
If a third test is needed, a Lyme Urine Antigen Test (LUAT) is done instead of a third Western blot. Positive LUATs correspond very highly to patients getting better with antibiotics."
(now called the Lyme Dot Assay)
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I agree with Lymetoo. I'm symptom-free and in remission yet had an IgG band show up on a Quest test (my new PCP wanted to test me .... he wants to treat based on that WB, but I refused).
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
My daughter was diagnosed in 6/09 with Bell's Palsy and was still positive for IgM on her 3rd WB in 11/09. She was only 2 or 3 bands consistently but it was CDC positive bands.
She only ever had 1 or 2 IgG bands and was seen by an ID per my peditrician's request to try to interpret her results as she continued to get new tick bites.
The ID doc was nuts, saying such things as "maybe she never had lyme" (since all the bell's palsy lyme patients they treated HAD converted postive to IgG (many bands) after sometime AND get this "she is probably immune from getting lyme again"
Another theory thrown around was they thought perhaps her IgG bands never converted because she was treated early, not really she was at least 6 weeks in, and the antibiotics inhibited her immune response for IgG.
Ok so I'm venting now, this is at a well known children's teaching hospital. the only children's hospital in our state. I was furious after this waste of my time appointment.
Labs are usually useless. Fortunately for me her labs got her treatment but they are useless now. I would go by clinical symptoms.
Interestingly I was treated early with antibioitcs (for a suspected non lyme infection) Yet, no one in main stream ever acknowledged that this could have halted my immune response resulting in a negative test.
Posts: 207 | From NH | Registered: Jul 2009
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The ID doc was nuts, saying such things as "maybe she never had lyme" (since all the bell's palsy lyme patients they treated HAD converted postive to IgG (many bands) after sometime AND get this "she is probably immune from getting lyme again"
Another theory thrown around was they thought perhaps her IgG bands never converted because she was treated early, not really she was at least 6 weeks in, and the antibiotics inhibited her immune response for IgG.
Ok so I'm venting now, this is at a well known children's teaching hospital. the only children's hospital in our state. I was furious after this waste of my time appointment.
Labs are usually useless. Fortunately for me her labs got her treatment but they are useless now. I would go by clinical symptoms.
From the WB explanation:
"With most infections, your immune system first forms IgM antibodies, then in about 2 to 4 weeks, you see IgG antibodies. In some infections, IgG antibodies may be detectable for years.
Because Borrelia burgdorferi is a chronic persistent infection that may last for decades, you would think patients with chronic symptoms would have positive IgG Western blots.
But actually, more IgM blots are positive in chronic borreliosis than IgG. Every time Borrelia burgdorferi reproduces itself, it may stimulate the immune system to form new IgM antibodies.
Some patients have both IgG and IgM blots positive. But if either the IgG or IgM blot is positive, overall it is a positive result."
Your daughter's ID doc was clueless, as most are.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
Your LLMD is correct. Physicians who specialize in Lyme note that as the infection is treated, repeat testing generally shows a decrease in the presentation of antibodies. Some IGG antibodies might stick around but those also tend to decrease.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
sutherngrl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16270
posted
My WB results have been opposite, as the first one had no positive bands, then 2 months into treatment IGM band 41 showed up, then a year into treatment IGM band 23 showed up.
So it seems mine gets more positive as I continue to treat. So far I have had no IGG positive bands though.
I'm not really sure what this means!
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Are you all well, able to work and participate in all sort of family and community activities in your spare time?
If so, you may have beaten lyme.
If not and if you still feel ill, I'd listen to your LLMD as you most likely still have a ways to go.
I, too, say that Your LLMD is correct if his point is that you may need continued treatment if you still have symptoms. But your body can also tell you a lot and you may not need too many repeat tests until you see a lot more progress.
Many other doctors are very uneducated in the matter of lyme and other tick infections and they do you a huge disservice with their uneducated opinions based not at all on the facts that many ILADS researchers/authors have studied at great length.
But, hey, if you are feeling great and have fantastic physical and brain energy - well, if that is the case - listen to your body.
Your body will let you know when you are well. Until then, stick with treatment from someone who has the specific education and training beyond that of the typical doctor.
A good LLMD should also consider all the tick infections as well as some of the chronic "stealth" infections. As you progress with lyme treatment, you can discuss whether there are other infections also at work.
Again, most typical doctors have very little - if any - education in this area - or in the support methods that most LLMDs use to help treatment work better.
Good luck. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- In addition to the usual coinfections from ticks (such as babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia, RMSF, etc.), there are some other chronic stealth infections that an excellent LLMD should know about:
I would encourage EVERY person who has received a lyme diagnosis to get the following tests.
- at link. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
quote: My WB results have been opposite, as the first one had no positive bands, then 2 months into treatment IGM band 41 showed up, then a year into treatment IGM band 23 showed up.
So it seems mine gets more positive as I continue to treat. So far I have had no IGG positive bands though.
I'm not really sure what this means!
It means the protein antigens released by the infection as you kill it are in enough abundance that the immune system is recognizing them.
What happens generally is people will no bands soon see bands after they've been on antibiotics for a month or two.
Then those bands gradually decrease over extended time periods if the treatment is effective.
Those who already had a positive test will see some increase in bands possibly but generally if treatment is effective their bands will also decrease.
In the end, some bands may stay positive in some people but they are minimized compared to when they began treatment.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
sutherngrl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16270
posted
Metallic, thanks for that explanation. Kind of what I thought. Hopefully this means I am killing the ketes.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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