posted
I did read up on this but my lyme brain is too tired to read all the technical jargon and "get it"
I understand that TOAs are tetracyclic oxindole alkaloids... but how that affects the body, why it is in one and why it isn't in the other I really don't know...unless it is just that the TOA free one can charge $90 and I can get the regular Cat's Claw for about $10!
So is it really that big a deal to get TOA free? I've got to find ways to cut costs here.
Just wondering who has tried this, had success, where did you get yours and was it TOA free or not?
Saw my doctor yesterday and believe it or not she is not recommending I get back on abx since I had major GI issues and yeast. She wants me to try Cat's Claw. She just said to get at the local vitamen store but is that the best?
Would love to hear from those of you who have tried this. Thanks!
-------------------- TxLymie IgG-Negative IgM - Postive bands 23 and 41
Other dx: 2000: Endometriosis 2009: Chronic EBV, Mycoplasma infection, HHV6, H.pylori Posts: 297 | From Houston | Registered: Jun 2009
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gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
The great master herbalist, Stephen Buhner, says it's better to use traditional Cat's Claw and not TOA free. It's controversial, but from my own limited understanding of this, I would get the traditional Cat's Claw, not because it's cheaper, but because it seems to be more effective.
I'm sure others will be coming along soon sharing opposing opinions and why TOA free is best. Do a google search and lymenet search and you'll see lots of discussion on this.
-------------------- Contracted LD et al, August 2000 Officially dx, February 2006 My Lyme Neuroborreliosis mimics Multiple Sclerosis. Lesions- Brain, Cervical and Thoracic spine. Posts: 123 | From Seattle, WA | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
gwb and Neuro-- Have either of you used and had success?
-------------------- TxLymie IgG-Negative IgM - Postive bands 23 and 41
Other dx: 2000: Endometriosis 2009: Chronic EBV, Mycoplasma infection, HHV6, H.pylori Posts: 297 | From Houston | Registered: Jun 2009
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gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
Cats Claw, Uncaria tomentosa. Known to the Indians of the Amazon basin for millennia, Cats Claw, Una de Gato in Spanish, helps the larger white blood cells, known as natural killer cells (more specifically the CD-57 subset) that can gobble up & destroy the Lyme spirochetes.
The problem is finding them, because the spirochetes don't like hanging out in the blood (too dangerous for them) and prefer to hide out and find their way to certain nerve & tissue cells. Cats Claw is believed to boost our CD57 subset and (that has been proven to be low especially when fighting LD).
Cats Claw helps boost our specific immune response, to-get-out-there and fight the stealth bacterium Bb. A study showing Cat Claw to be remarkably effective in treating chronic LD (Cowen et al.) found 100% of patients experienced marked clinical improvement; and 85% were sero-negative for LD at the end of study. Unfortunately, this study is not definitive and has some flaws (Buhner).
Several other studies show the immune stimulating qualities of Cats Claw and major anti-inflammatory abilities; (22 of 100 studies and papers on Pub Med database).
The relevance of Cats Claw for LD:
Proven effective for modulating immune response, raising where necessary, and calming over-active reactions. It is especially effective against arthritis inflammation, helps with memory problems, (prevalent in chronic LD,) relaxes the central nervous system, protects the heart and is a general tonic.
This below comes from our own "Better Health Guy", Scott:
Cat's Claw
500mg capsules 4 caps 4 times per day for 8-12 months. There is much controversy over TOA- free. Most of it is not true. TOA-free is not any better. Just separates you from your money.
TOA constituents are necessary in Lyme disease as they are the most active in the nervous system.
Cat's Claw specifically raises CD57 white blood cell counts. That is why it is so good with Lyme. When CD57 goes up, spirochetes go down. It is also an HLA-DR modulator. HLA-DR is often found in resistant or chronic Lyme. Cat's Claw can modulate. Raintree is a good option.
No, I have no personal experience with it, just read a lot about it. Research it and come to your own conclusions because everyone has a different view on this.
-------------------- TxLymie IgG-Negative IgM - Postive bands 23 and 41
Other dx: 2000: Endometriosis 2009: Chronic EBV, Mycoplasma infection, HHV6, H.pylori Posts: 297 | From Houston | Registered: Jun 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Some say use TOA-free and I say use the regular - but that is because I want it for my nerve function. TOA-free has removed the ingredients that help the brain.
There is no 3rd party research on TOA-free. I can find none. Buhner could find none. Now, the TOA-free may be of help but I've seen it fail several (I used Samento for a full year with no help. Two friends, too, zippo for them).
Still, we are different and I have heard of it helping some. So, if it helps, great. If not, don't bet on it, then. If you want it to help with calming nerves, use the regular.
-------------------- Contracted LD et al, August 2000 Officially dx, February 2006 My Lyme Neuroborreliosis mimics Multiple Sclerosis. Lesions- Brain, Cervical and Thoracic spine. Posts: 123 | From Seattle, WA | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
I have a bottle of Samento but I do not know how manmy drops I should take.
-------------------- Contracted LD et al, August 2000 Officially dx, February 2006 My Lyme Neuroborreliosis mimics Multiple Sclerosis. Lesions- Brain, Cervical and Thoracic spine. Posts: 123 | From Seattle, WA | Registered: Oct 2008
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Keebler
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posted
- Neuro,
It's best to start with ONE drop in 1/3 cup of water. I'd take this just once a day for a few days and see how you do, then increase by just one drop every few days if you feel up to it.
One drop will have an effect. Now it may be a herx or just the way this works in other ways. But one drop is where you should begin. I hope you have a doctor guiding you on this but, still, it's important to read all you can.
=======
Q: Is Samento and Cat's Claw the same?
Not at all.
The instant the TOA is removed, it ceases to be cat's claw and properties normally attributed to Cat's Claw cannot be ascribed to TOA-free processed version.
It's something else entirely different. That is why the trade name, Samento. It's a brand name, not a botanical name.
Now, Samento still has certain properties, just not the same as you'd read if you study Cat's Claw. The TOA parts removed were the ones that normally calm the nervous system. Some of the other properties would still be the same, but not those involving TOA. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
I used both, they seem to be slightly different. I prefer, NO DOUBT, full cats claw herb. I test things energetically and the whole herb (in powder) in my case tested about 95-98% of the time, while the other Samento, only the rest of the time.
I used it for about 3 WHOLE years, it was the most useful herbs against borrelia for me.
I bought only 2 bottles of Samento during my whole lyme ordeal, I still have some of the second bottle left. The raintree bulk cats claw, I bought pounds and pounds of it and consumed them almost like food.
Posts: 6200 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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I've read one should not take the whole herb cats claw with auto immune condition? Thoughts?
Posts: 200 | From New England | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
I just have capsules. Is powder or drops better?
f13- I've never heard that at all. Where did you read that or get your information?
-------------------- TxLymie IgG-Negative IgM - Postive bands 23 and 41
Other dx: 2000: Endometriosis 2009: Chronic EBV, Mycoplasma infection, HHV6, H.pylori Posts: 297 | From Houston | Registered: Jun 2009
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Keebler
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posted
- f13girl
Where did you read that? If you have the link / source, I can see it in context. The direct quote would be very helpful if you can post that excerpt, too.
I think I heard a rumor of similar nature, if it is what I think, it was taken way out of context. But, I'd need to read where you got your information.
I've studied this herb for years and have never read that. Of course, it's always best to have a LL ND (naturopathic doctor) prescribe what is needed. This may not be needed - or needed all the time - or it could be redundant if one is mixing and matching on their own. Most herbs are used in a well-thought out combination. This balances out effects and they often work better together with others. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
If I have read correctly...cats claw has TOAs and POAs. I believe that some say that the TOAs lower immune response and lower the POAs beneficial effect on the immune system.
I don't know if that is actually true or not. I haven't tried either form of cats claw so I couldn't tell you.
I actually bought some Samento (the TOA free cats claw) because I heard some pretty good stuff about it at another lyme group. BUT I haven't tried it yet since I have been doing all this other stuff with my LLMD.
Anyhow...just wanted to share why some people think that TOA free is supposed to be better. I have no idea if it is true or not.
Take Care! Pam :-)
-------------------- Sick since 10/2001. Tested CDC positive for Lyme 10/2008 through Quest and Igenex. Started treatment 1/2009 with LLMD. Lyme, Erichilosis, Chlamydophila Pneumoniae, Q Fever, Strep Syndrome and probably a few others I am forgetting. Posts: 451 | From Virginia | Registered: Feb 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- In relation to Cat's Claw for those with lyme disease, Buhner's book offers the most detailed information with 15 full pages devoted to this alone. Pages 89-104.
Healing Lyme (Buhner) -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Brussels
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Member # 13480
posted
TOA FREE cats claw = patented cats claw. Research on TOA FREE cats claw was ONLY done by the group who PATENTED it. No other independent studies done on TOA free cats claw. It costs about 10 times more than whole herb.
Inicial research on TOA FREE couple of years ago said SAMENTO cured lyme by itself. Today, the talk is VERY different, I don't think they can still publish anything on that sense (too many people tried it alone to believe).
WHOLE herb cats claw = no patent. Used for centuries by local indigenous people in the jungles of South America.
I don't know anything about people with autoimmunity not being allowed to take cats claw. I would do energetic tests to know, try for a while for myself and see how I react.
As I said, they test a bit different. I was the type that wanted whole herb more than Samento. But who knows other people are different??
Samento (toa free) helped me very bit during 3 years I fought lyme with herbs only (I can count the days I used it), but whole herb was my favorite. I used it literally for YEARS.
Since I started photon therapy (January 2009), I never touched any killer herb for borrelia anymore.
If I had to start herbs again, I would start with whole herb cats claw (low amounts), add bits of stephania slowly, then see how I react to smilax and at last, add andrographis.
Another great helper (but too strong for me most of the times) was Japanese knotweed bulk roots (decoction in tea). Add some freeze garlic capsules here and then, bee venon ointments on painful spots or other essential oils to rub, and you have a quite good start as killers. Then you 'just' need to search for cleansers...
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