posted
Hi all, I've had this discussion with a couple of people taking it. If it is a detoxifier why didn't they herx from it? If it supports the liver..how can we prove that?
Or are we wasting our money? Thoughts welcome!
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Karen
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canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
I take a product with...
Milk Thistle Selenium NAC ALA
Has worked wonders for me.
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lymeinhell
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4622
posted
It also de-sludges the gall bladder.
Your liver is one of your body's detoxing tools - if it's not working correctly, it won't filter as well as it should leaving muck to gather in places it shouldn't or building up in your liver causing damage.
You won't 'herx' per say by detoxing, but you will feel like crap afterwards if you do it right. Pulling out a bunch of toxins from hiding is not always a fun process. Not all 'feeling bad' moments are herxes. If that makes you feel better by calling it a herx, so be it.
I KNOW Milk Thistle works - My vet had me put my dog on it for elevated liver enzymes following gall bladder surgery. It brought her elevated enzymes down by half in just a couple weeks.
I also know it's kept me with my gall bladder intact, and had I not continued to take it these last 5 yrs off abx, I would have had to had my gb removed by surgery. (GB disease runs in my family). The milk thistle allows me to keep it.
In the scheme of things, it's one of the lowest cost supps I take and so little does so much.
-------------------- Julie _ _ ___ _ _ lymeinhell
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Haley
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posted
My doctor told me that it produces more bile. That's how it works.
He also said that it can cause certain medications to be less effective if it is taken too close to meds.
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Interesting information. I've had gall bladder problems in the past (suspected) lilke right upper quadrant pain and hopefully will be scheduled for a hIDA scan.
Appreciated all responses--so it looks like milk thistle might have many functions.
Canefan17, what brand do you use? PM if possible.
What meds can you not use milk thistle with?
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canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
NuMedica Liver Defend
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Support is what helps the liver be able to detox as best it can, not pushed. It's best to be gentle with the liver. It can only do so much, so fast. If "detoxing" to push a herx, that can be VERY hard on the liver. Many of the "detox" events are not a good idea. When I see the word "detox" I cringe because I know that some want to push as hard as they can. Not a good idea.
If someone has porphyria and the liver is pushed beyond capacity, serious results can occur, even death. See the last thread below about porphyria.
This is just one reason why it is best to try to avoid a herx if possible. And that is why the liver support and all the other guidelines for self-care are important.
Gentle methods to sweat (without getting too hot), gentle exercise, water, massage, Epson salts baths, LOW HEAT far infrared saunas . . . all good.
Support is usually also protection. More in the works below about that.
Here is a set of links I've collected over time. There may be some helpful information here:
. . . Individual variations in our cytochrome P40 enzymes help to demystify why there are so many variations in how we respond to drugs and herbs. . . .
- Full chapter at link above.
(more below about the C P-450 in relation to Porphyria - a must read - last link below.)
. . . The important thing to remember is that the liver is a hot (metabolically active) organ, and so tends to get congested and inflamed. . . .
PROTECTION
Turmeric root, wheat sprouts, schisandra berries, amla fruit, beet root and milk thistle seed are among the major sources of protective anti-oxidants for the liver cells, as are fruits that contain flavonoids, especially citrus fruits.
These should be used to prevent development of inflammatory disease, or for damage protection as in the case of persons taking strong chemical drugs or undergoing chemotherapy. . . .
DEFICIENCY
The liver can become weakened and deficient. If this is not corrected, it can lead to liver atrophy and depletion of glycogen stores, even hepatitis. Signs include fatigue, low blood pressure, hypoglycemia, dry eyes, headache, heat symptoms and irritability . . . .
HEAT & INFLAMMATION
To remove excess liver inflammation with heat signs or toxins . . . .
PAIN
If there is liver inflammation with signs of pain and tension, use herbs that calm the liver and move the blood . . . .
LIVER PROTECTION: Laying the Foundation for Optimal Hepatic Health - By Kathy E. Acquistapace, DC, NHP, CNC
=================
PORPHYRIA
Notice just how many of these symptoms are identical to a herx. Harsh pushing will just make it worse. Specific support and protection are what matters. Gentle methods to sweat, etc. help but not pushing the liver beyond what it can do. ---------
SECONDARY PORPHYRIA: what you should know before starting a CAP (combined antibiotic protocol)
=================
KPU (Kryptopyrroluria) is just ONE type of porphryia that seems to have importance regarding patients with lyme, autism and those who have issues with heavy metals:
BIOCHEMISTRY OF LYME DISEASE: BORRELIA BURGDORFERI SPIROCHETE / CYST
by Prof. Robert W. Bradford and Henry W. Allen
EXCERPT:
. . . A discovery of great importance relating to a toxin produced by the causative agent of Lyme disease, Borrelia burgdorferi, has been linked to a similar toxin produced by the organism Clostridium botulinum (botulism). . . .
The Herxheimer reaction (also known as Jarisch-Herxheimer or Herx) occurs when large quantities of toxins are released into the body as bacteria (typically Spirochetal bacteria) die, due to antibiotic treatment or rapid detoxification.
** Typically the death of these bacteria and the associated release of endotoxins occurs faster than the body can remove the toxins via the natural detoxification process performed by the kidneys and liver. **
It is manifested by fever, chills, headache, myalgia (muscle pain), and exacerbation of skin lesions.
Duration in syphilis is normally only a few hours but can be much longer, up to months or years, for other diseases, especially Lyme Disease. The intensity of the reaction reflects the intensity of inflammation present.
The Herxheimer reaction has shown an increase in inflammatory cytokines during the period of exacerbation, including tumor necrosis factor alpha, interleukin-6 and interleukin-8.[1][2]
The reaction is also seen in other diseases, such as borreliosis (Lyme disease[3][4] and tick-borne relapsing fever[5]), bartonellosis, brucellosis, typhoid fever, Myalgic Encephalomyelitis, and trichinellosis, Q fever, and cat scratch disease.[6][7]
Especially note herxheimer abtracts with Leptospirosis, another spirochetal infection. -
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- In addition to support methods, avoidance of some things matters greatly:
Excerpt: . . . "I was taking Tylenol like I was supposed to, by the label," he said. A few days later the then 37-year-old Benedi was in a coma and in desperate need of a liver transplant. . . .
---------------------- In addition to information Terry has posted there, she says:
There is a page on lymeinfo.net about methylation but it just covers the theory behind the simplified protocol and not really methylation cycle issues in general.
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