posted
I started 250 mgs of Zith two days ago and don't notice a change at all.
When did you notive improvement for bart?
I heard that Bart has a short life so the abx works quickly- is this true?
Posts: 319 | From nj | Registered: Jul 2008
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Hoosiers51
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posted
I didn't notice anything at all from Zithromax for Bart until I added Plaquenil.
After adding Plaquenil, I might have herxed right away, or it might have taken a week or two....can't remember.
Keep in mind that you may need time for the Zith and/or Plaquenil (if or when you add that drug) to reach a higher concentration in the body. Not sure how long that takes, but with Plaquenil, I think it takes a little bit of time, which could explain my delayed herx.
Plaquenil helps Zithromax penetrate better. There are studies showing this...I can find them if you want to see them.
I have heard that some people's Bart doesn't respond to Zithromax, but in my opinion, you'll want to add Plaquenil if you want to give it a better chance at working.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
you are still on plaquenil, right? what other abx. are you taking at the moment? are you still treating babesia? i know art. was giving you a lot of problems! hope you are feeling better.
Posts: 871 | From NJ | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
i am on the plaq too
Posts: 319 | From nj | Registered: Jul 2008
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Jane2904
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15917
posted
Our daughter started Rifampin last June, by end of July some small improvements were noticed, then in August
we added in the last 300mg of Rifampin and that seemed to help.
Seemed to be around 8 weeks before we noticed some improvements, but that was on Mino and Rifampin.
Maybe Zith and other medication may be different.
Best of luck to you, Jane
Posts: 1357 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Jun 2008
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Never got anything positive from Zithromax. HATE that drug with a passion. I was on that drug for 5 months under my first LLMD ever. The doc just couldn't get it through his head it didn't do much even when I showed no improvement. LLMDs either adore it or don't use it much orally, except when paired with Mepron for Babs Tx.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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I was supposed to start Plaquenil today, but am holding off until tomorrow to take it with my dose of Zithromax. Also, I started Artemisinin yesterday and had a mini-herx reaction (because I took a half-dose, so I'm going to take that again tonight).
Do you take them together or away from each other?
Regarding Artemisinin, do you think it would be OK to pulse a half-dose every other day for a week, or do you think I'm reducing its efficacy by doing so?
Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
with Bart, you should herx pretty quickly. I'm sure there are exceptions, and not everyone herxes, some people just improve.
Keep in mind that BLO (bart like organism) may not give a herx right away. That is more of a mystery bug. But regular bartonella does have a short lifespan. Bartonella isn't a mystery like BLO.
Zith also treats Lyme, which would take much longer to notice anything.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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canefan17
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posted
Zithro for bart?? maybe in combo
but these are good bart abx's/herbs... Rifampin, levaquin, resveratrol
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
hey maureen- yeah im still on the Plaq. I saw my doc thurs and he changed up my meds. He took me off biaxin and amox and added Zithromax to the Plaq and wants me to add Rifam next mth and then add malarone again.
He think lyme/bart is the problem.
Since I've been off the art and malarone, I've had the same symptoms so Im not sure that it was a herx at all now.
Posts: 319 | From nj | Registered: Jul 2008
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I've been pulsing Zithromax with Minocycline for a little over 2 weeks. I haven't noticed much in the way of improvement of my Bartonella symptoms, but I can tell you they have intensified!
However, my Babesia symptoms are steadily improving, and think when I add Plaquenil I may see some relief from Bartonella.
I did have some minor rashes brought out from the ABX regimen when I first started, but they have pretty much cleared up. That suggests to me that the ABX started its attack on one of my co-infections (most likely Bartonella).
posted
If I had BLO, would the Biaxin and Amox have treated it?
Because whatever the Biaxin and Amox treated is now back.
I'd love to hear more about BLO
Posts: 319 | From nj | Registered: Jul 2008
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Hoosiers51
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posted
laurisabelle,
Okay...if you are on Plaquenil too, that's good. My understanding is that that drug can take a little bit to reach full power in your body (we're talkin' a week or more). And like I said, the Zith is probably not working well until that Plaquenil gets into the picture.
So I'd be patient and not expect anything too soon....not because of the pathogen, but because of the nature of the drugs.
Wolf,
I think I took my Zithromax and Plaquenil together, at the same time. I was actually taking a pretty low dose of Plaquenil....I wanna say 100 mg? I was getting bizarre weakness as a side effect, so I was taking less of that drug so I could still at least stay on it.
Zith and Plaquenil are both drugs that stay in the body a long time, so it really doesn't matter if you take them together or not, just as long as you take them daily.
Just check for any food interactions, like some meds shouldn't be taken with calcium-containing foods, etc.
Artemisinin---I would do it 4 days on, 3 days off, if you can. Or you that is too much, maybe 3 on, 4 off. I wouldn't take something every other day, but that is just me....I figure why give the babs every other day off to party.
The 3 or 4 days off in a row is so that your body doesn't build up resistance to the artemisinin. You only need to do that with artemisinin. If one dose of art is too high, don't be afraid to open up the capsules and dump some out. I think you would be better doing a lower dose for 4 days in a row than a higher dose every other day.
And the 3 day solid break is important to let your body stop producing enzymes that inhibit it...something along those lines. 3 days off is important!
Also, with artemisinin, try to space it out so you're taking it 2-3 times throughout the day (so you may have to really bump the dose down). It doesn't stay in the body long, so once per day isn't the best idea. Space it out if you can.
I didn't always space it out, but doing so is preferable.
Good luck!
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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I'm starting Plaquenil at 200mg once daily for week, and then ramping it up to twice daily.
My doctor did tell me to take Plaquenil with a "fatty" meal as it is better absorbed that way. She suggested taking it with foods like milk, cheese -- stuff that I can't eat because of my food and mold intolerances.
What other healthy fatty meals could I take Plaquenil with? I usually cook my vegetables in Olive Oil and eat brown rice with it.
Posts: 829 | From MD | Registered: Dec 2009
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Hoosiers51
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posted
Biaxin MIGHT have treated it.... doubtful Amox would have.
Biaxin and Amox are both mainly used against Lyme for Lyme/co patients.
You can take Amox and Zith and Plaquenil together, so you may want to do that. That would help you figure out if it was the Biaxin or Amox that was helping you.
My mantra is that is something is helping slowly, don't stop it.
My understanding is that Zith is a better Bart or BLO drug than Biaxin.
BLO---it is a phrase/phenomenon that Dr. B invented, as far as I know. He talks about it in his guidelines. What he found is that he would have patients with Bartonella-like symptoms, that responded well to drugs that kill Bartonella, but these people test negative for Bartonella. So Dr. B supposes that they have a "bartonella like organism."
Some people say BLO is harder to get rid of than regular Bartonella.
The two drugs famous for helping BLO are Levaquin and Rifampin.
Zithromax and Plaquenil MIGHT help BLO too, or it might just be good for regular Bartonella. Keep in mind though that people could have regular Bartonella and just not be testing positive for it.
Some of what I said may not be technically correct about the history of BLO, but that is just my brief explanation based on what I have read.
I think the BLO symptoms are similar to Bart....brain fog, psych issues, etc.
I know that I had regular Bart b/c I tested positive. I was very lucky in that regard. A lot of people test negative.
I was helped by Zith and Plaquenil, but then Bactrim DS also helped me a great deal. It seems like some people's Bart or BLO doesn't respond to Zith/Plaq.
Those people might be better off with either Bactrim DS, Rifampin, or Levaquin.
It really is about trying things until something helps. Sigh. I wish there was an easier way.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Hoosiers51
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posted
Wolf,
You could drizzle some extra olive oil over the rice/veggies after cooking to be sure you get enough oil.
Or if you want something that doesn't add too much taste, you could add the "light" Bertolli olive oil..light in this case means light taste, not fat. Or you could try adding Refined (which means no coconut taste) but cold(aka expeller) pressed coconut oil to your foods. The refined version doesn't have much taste at all.
Or, if you don't want to add more oil to your foods because you like them how they are, you can just eat a tablespoon of olive oil right out of the spoon. Plug your nose if you don't like the taste.
That is what I would do when I took Mepron (which needs fatty food) but didn't have time to eat. I'd just pop a spoonful of olive oil.
You could take Cod Liver oil too....if Plaquenil doesn't interact with the Vit E or D in the cod liver oil. (Mepron interacted with Vit E)
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Hoosiers, thank you for the reply. I appreciate it.
I see what you mean and doubt the amox helped. I think it was the Biaxin that helped. I mean it was significant. I had my dizziness, tingling, anxiety, depression, OCD, and braing fog pretty much go away for months. And within one week too.
My Doc wants me to add Rifampin next mth and gave this a month bec i am always so concerned with herxing. And then add malarone.
Posts: 319 | From nj | Registered: Jul 2008
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I love cooking with Olive Oil, so I have no problem with the taste. And, I eat great so I don't care about gulping a couple teaspoons of fat, you know what I mean??
I'll try the suggestions. Again, thanks for all the support.
Laurisa,
I understand how you feel. Rest assured, herxing is part of the process. We have to accept this.
The more able you are to accept this treatment clearly, the less effected you will be by a herx. There's emotional significance to the process as well. Those who are over-anxious, make things much more difficult for themselves.
If you want some GREAT reading on working through anxiety, I recommend this book called The Presence Process by Michael Brown.
It changed my whole perspective on things when I was going through the roughest of times and getting worse. Somehow, I learned to cope and live like a normal person even through that.
Good luck with your treatment, Laurisa. I look forward to hearing if Rifampin is successful for you.
Posts: 829 | From MD | Registered: Dec 2009
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I agree that psychologically I am just unprepared to deal with the unknown with herxing. I take a while to get on the medication and have great anxiety while doing so and always like to know as much info as possible.
I wish I were the go with the flow type person.
Its funny, I have no problem with flu like aches, fatigue, even pain but what Im most scared of, if loosing my mind during a herx or toally freaking out and not having anyone who could help, especially not the er.
I will check out that book though, thank you Posts: 319 | From nj | Registered: Jul 2008
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Vermont_Lymie
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Member # 9780
posted
Great improvement in 3 months, but at a higher dose, and with plaquenil and ceftin.
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
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Hoosiers51
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posted
Laurisabele,
I would go with your gut on which drug you think was helping, but just keep in mind that those symptoms can also be Lyme, so it's possible the benefit could have been from the Amox helping your Lyme (which could happen within a week) or the Biaxin could have been helping Lyme, not Bart.
So just file it in the back of your head, so later on if you are needing some help, you'll know what to go back to.
Amox can help psych symptoms and cognition. Though of course the cause would be Lyme, since Amox hits Lyme.
Good luck with your new meds!
Wolfed Out,
You're welcome!
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Bart is hard to get rid of. Zithro + flagyl, or Zithro + Bactrim or Zithro + rifampin may all yield good anti-Bart effects in my limited, but personal experience. With flagyl the herx can disable you so use caution and go slow there.
Beachinit
-------------------- Ideas not advice. Posts: 448 | From Downeast Maine | Registered: Jul 2009
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