posted
Anyone here has depersonalization or derealization?
Posts: 158 | From pittsburgh | Registered: Aug 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- How did you come by these terms? Did you search for a name for your symptoms or did someone else suggest this?
The reason I ask is that while psychological issues are very real, often, for lyme patients who have inner ear involvement, they can feel that the world is sort of surreal and may latch onto terms that are tied to psychological experiences rather than to just how lyme affects our perceptions regarding stimuli.
Liver toxicity or elevated porphyrins, too, can bring about a sense of detachment. While very different from the terms you use, often these very diagnoses are assigned in mistake.
When using such terms with your doctors, use them ONLY with a doctor who is ILADS-educated LLMD or LL ND (naturopathic doctor). Only a Lyme Literate doctor will be able to determine exactly what process is going on in light of the toxic infection, liver stress and inner ear effects.
These terms (even if you know they relate to lyme) can ruin your medical chart and chances of every being treated correctly. It's very sad but mental health disorders usually slam the door on a patient getting care for their whole self.
. . . Depersonalization is a subjective experience of unreality in one's sense of self, while derealization is unreality of the outside world. . . .
. . . Chronic depersonalization refers to depersonalization disorder, which is classified by the DSM-IV as a dissociative disorder. . . .
. . . Individuals who experience depersonalization feel divorced from their own personal physicality by sensing their body sensations, feelings, emotions and behaviors as not belonging to the same person or identity.[3] Often a person who has experienced depersonalization claims that life "feels like a movie" or things seem unreal or hazy.
Also, a recognition of self breaks down (hence the name). Depersonalization can result in very high anxiety levels, which further increase these perceptions.[4] . . . .
Derealization (DR) is an alteration in the perception or experience of the external world so that it seems strange or unreal. Other symptoms include feeling as though one's environment is lacking in spontaneity, emotional colouring and depth.[1] It is a dissociative symptom of many conditions, such as psychiatric and neurological disorders, and not a standalone disorder. It is also a transient side effect of acute drug intoxication, sleep deprivation, and stress.
Derealization is a subjective experience of unreality of the outside world, while depersonalization is unreality in one's sense of self.
. . . Chronic derealization may be caused by occipital-temporal dysfunction.[3] These symptoms are common in the population, with a lifetime prevalence of up to 74% and between 31 and 66% at the time of a traumatic event.[4] . . . .
The Human Side of Lyme - An Inhumane Disease of the Brain
Excerpt:
. . . Chronic or persistent Lyme disease--neuroborreliosis--seldom is identified by the symptoms of its most frequent form--subacute encephalitis--an infected/inflamed brain as well as an infected nervous system. However, this is the form in which it most commonly exists. . . .
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More about the brain infection and what that can cause:
-------------------- Severe neurological problems. Probably sick for years. Became chronically sick in Aug 2007. Undiagnosed for another 15 months. Started treatment for lyme and bart Sept. 2008. Improving, but very slowly. Posts: 515 | From washington dc | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
Yes. I never had this before this past december. I had it for a month on an almost constant basis and it was related to extreme stress of my adrenals failing plus Lyme coming back.
Once it is triggered though, often by a physical illness, it can perpetuate itself even if the illness is being cared for since it gets tied into an anxiety cycle that can be very hard to break.
I understand what Keebler is saying, but my LLMD uses these two terms directly as does my endocronolgist and my psych doc...but both are Lyme friendly and know my illnesses well.
Mine was a result of physical illness, but, given some cognitive therapy plus starting proper treatment has made it so I can control it for the most part unless I get really stressed, really tired.
A lot of my mental situations involving this illness(es) like anxiety, depression, derealization are caused by the disarray in my body, but cognitive therapy has helped me greatly as far as dealing with some of these symptoms if only by showing me that I'm not crazy, there is a reason for it, and this allows me to not create extra anxiety on top of what is organic if that makes any sense.
This has probably been one of the worst parts of the illness for me.
Posts: 594 | From NJ/NY | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
It is even listed on wikipedia and a few other sites as being a symptoms of Lyme Disease and also Adrenal malfunction.
Posts: 594 | From NJ/NY | Registered: Jun 2006
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Elley, yes, I agree . . . with LL doctors, the terms can adequately describe symptoms that go far beyond "brain fog."
However, with doctors who are not LL, these terms are most often taken out of context, to the patient's detriment and can set up major road blocks and assumptions that lead to very bad care (in the non-LL world).
Once a psychiatric disorder is recorded in our medical file, there is nothing we can do to ever erase that or say that it is not exactly correct and there is more to the picture. Once we have certain dx in our file, that follows us for the rest of our lives. We can note a comment or included a correction, of sorts, but that first dx made by a doctor is never deleted.
More literature to help us understand how the brain is hit:
Pamela Weintraub is a literary and investigative science journalist. She is a senior editor at Discover magazine. frequently writes about lyme and its effects.
An infection can change your personality --there's plenty of proof
Infections can alter behavior --here's the proof.
Excerpt:
. . . "There are several thousand peer-reviewed references demonstrating the association between infections and mental symptoms and at least 65 different microbes have been recognized as causing mental symptoms," Bransfield writes.
"Over two hundred peer-reviewed articles describe the causal association between Lyme/tick-borne diseases and mental symptoms, pathophysiology, morbidity and mortality. . . ."
. . . . -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- ADRENAL EXHAUSTION / dysfunction can also lead to "altered" states.
Lyme patients are nearly always affected with a hit to the HPA axis (Hypothalamus-Pituitary-Adrenal triangle of sorts between the hypothalamus and the pituitary in two parts of the brain ordering the action of the slave adrenal organs that sit on top of the kidneys). As well, the entire endocrine system takes a huge hit.
What can help:
=================
Great information about treatments options and support measures, including those to help adrenal/endocrine function:
posted
Yes, like Keebler says above-I am lucky that my docs are Lyme Literate or at the very least know my illnesses are the cause of my mental distress. You do NOT want to be labeled as simply having a psych disorder if there is an organic cause.
When this hit me I was in the hospital for a week-and since I wasn't sure what was happening (this had not been a Lyme symptom for me previously and I had not yet realized that it was coming out of remission along with developing Addison's), the hospital labeled me as a bulemic girl with anxiety disorder and it was tough to get any respect. They didn't even look into my adrenal glands, I had to see my primary care doc for that one...so do be careful with your wording.
I also can't stress enough the importance of looking after your adrenal glands. That was the final nail in the coffin for me and if I had known about adrenal importance earlier, I could have saved myself a lot of trauma, heartache, and now mental scars that will take a long time to heal. Please look after those adrenal glands!!!
Posts: 594 | From NJ/NY | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
So,Does it mean depersonalization or derealization are not a symptom of lyme but a result of physical illness,am I right?
The reason I ask this question is because I saw somebody post this symptom on other lyme forum and I told that girl I think it's a result of physical illness not a symptom of lyme.
Posts: 158 | From pittsburgh | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
it can be a symptom of many diseases and illnesses just like depression and anxiety can be.
Like I said, on the wiki page for depersonalization, it mentions Lyme Disease as a possible cause. and I believe it also mentions problems with the HPA axis.
Posts: 594 | From NJ/NY | Registered: Jun 2006
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- In concert with what Elley says,
A symptom is a sign or a result of an illness. So, yes, d / d can be a symptom of lyme (or other illnesses, infections or physical trauma). It is neither the cause nor the endpoint - and should never be used as the sole diagnosis in determining treatment.
Neuroborreliosis is an infection of the brain and the nervous system - and the entire body. That causes a lot of symptoms.
Be sure to go back up the "Human Side of Lyme" as it addresses your questions. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
If you talk to people on here (they haven't chimed in) they will tell you they overcame it. A lot of people (including Dr. B) have said that it is bart related.
When it started for me, it would come in episodes. Then it became full time.
I haven't gotten rid of it, but others on here that I have talked to have gotten rid of it through treatment of bart, lyme, and babs.
I am clinging to hope that it can be overcome. I will PM you.
-------------------- Severe neurological problems. Probably sick for years. Became chronically sick in Aug 2007. Undiagnosed for another 15 months. Started treatment for lyme and bart Sept. 2008. Improving, but very slowly. Posts: 515 | From washington dc | Registered: Aug 2008
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posted
I will be honest-physical treatment was important to me-very important-but I don't think I would've gotten past it without a good cognitive therapist.
I still get it at times, the difference is I know what it is and how to calm down my system as far as the anxiety and fear it causes which is a big part of the battle for me anyway.
I went literally from feeling sane to not knowing who I was anymore overnight with this. I came very close to ending up in a mental hospital.
I would not have gotten better without my illnesses beign treated, but conditioning my mind and thought process was also very important and it is very helpful if you can find a LL therapist.
Posts: 594 | From NJ/NY | Registered: Jun 2006
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- Yes, a good LL therapist can be a vital link. Cognitive therapy is very valuable tool, just as important as Rx and supplements. A combined approach is required, indeed.
And, as venus reminds us, Lyme is not the only infection to cause havoc. Other tick-borne infections such as BARTONELLA, etc. - and other chronic stealth infections can be involved:
=====================
This article has much attention on both lyme and Cpn (Chlamydia pneumonia, another chronic stealth infection):
Chronic Borreliosis Complex and Neuroendocrine System Disorders
- By Carol Fisch, Adjunct Professor Emeritus, Microbiology, Immunology, Parasitology, Proficient in Stealth Pathogens
=================
In addition to the usual coinfections from ticks (such as babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia, RMSF, etc.), there are some other chronic stealth infections that an excellent LLMD should know about:
posted
Anyone who is interested in the DSM criteria for diganosing Depersonalization D/O should read below.
A. Persisitant or recurrent experiences of feeling detached from, and as if one is an outside observer of one's mental process or body (feeling like one is in a dream
B. During the depersonalization expereince reality testing remains in tact.
C. The depersonalization causes clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
D. The depersonalization expereince does not occur exclusively during the course of another mental health disorder, such as Schizophrenia, Panic Disorder, Acute Stress Disorder or another Dissociative Disorder, AND is not due to the direct physiological effects of a substance (e.g. drug abuse, a medication) or a general medical condition (e.g. temporal lobe epilepsy).
Posts: 376 | From New Jersey | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
What Trigal is saying is true if you are being diagnosed with only depersonalization disorder-however depersonalization is by itself listed as a symptom of many mental health conditions and physical ailments. But it is very important to distinguish between the disorder and it being a symptoms of somethign else.
Posts: 594 | From NJ/NY | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
I also get sleep paralysis when I am exhausted and stressed, illness can really do a number on your system.
Often times these things occur as a defense mechanism of your brain. Basically your brain is working overtime to keep your bodily functions working the best they can under their stressed circumstances, so they tune down other parts of function such as your basic senses of reality. Of course this is terrifying, but the brain is basically saying that this part of functioning is not vital to keeping the body alive, so it will numb it for a while. Unfortunately this causes trauma and anxiety to whoever is experiencing it, which adds more stress to the body, which creates a vicious cycle.
That is why it can be so very common in a range of mental and physical illnesses-but like Keebler has mentioned, sometimes it has a more mechanical cause such as vestibular trouble which is not so much mental in nature as it is a physical problem with not being able to accurately perceive ones world. This can also be caused by improper circulation to the brain.
One thing that helped me a lot with this is Gotu Kola. I take it every morning.
Posts: 594 | From NJ/NY | Registered: Jun 2006
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Keebler
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posted
- Elley - I love how you bring in things that I totally forget about. Ditto. Gotu Kola is gently amazing, indeed.
It also helps to decrease the startle reaction that comes with inner ear dysfunction and/or adrenal exhaustion (as well as with myoclonic seizures). -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Leelee
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posted
I don't know if what I had is what you are talking about, but for a long time I would watch myself. I would be doing an activity and yet in my mind I would be standing apart and observing my actions. I was detached from my body, so to speak.
I would think to myself, "she is pointing her toes", "she is putting one foot in front of the other", "she is looking in the mirror", weird stuff like that.
It eventually subsided more or less with treatment, but I still do it a little bit.
Is that what you are talking about?
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
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In regards to diagnosing there are numerous mental health diagnoses whose criteria include symptoms of dissociation and depersonalization.
Because depersonalization is a common associated feature of many other mental disorders, a seperate diagnosis of Depersonalization is not made if the experience occurs exclusivly during the course of another mental health or medical disorder.
It is not until all of those other mental health conditions as well as medical conditions are ruled out that one would be diagnosed with this.
Posts: 376 | From New Jersey | Registered: Jun 2009
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Yes it has helped me so much with so many things, it'll be a part of my regimen possibly for life.
I have NO negative side effects from it which I can't say about any other anti-anxiety supplement or medication.
It helps me be more alert but less anxious and has helped tremendously with my startle reflex.
Posts: 594 | From NJ/NY | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Yes Leelee-that is a good description of depersonalization. Some describe it as an almost out of body experience even though you are awake and aware of what is going on.
Posts: 594 | From NJ/NY | Registered: Jun 2006
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Leelee
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posted
quote:Originally posted by elley0531: Yes Leelee-that is a good description of depersonalization. Some describe it as an almost out of body experience even though you are awake and aware of what is going on.
Thank you, elley, for your reply. I suspected that was the correct term for it b/c that is sure what it felt like.
And your words of an "out of body experience" is precise.
I used to stare at people too. I would just fixate on them. I couldn't take my eyes away even though I wanted to. Surely, they were uncomfortable, but I would think things like, "look, they see me looking at them and I should stop. why can't I stop? I don't want to do this. This is weird. Look, they see me staring at them", etc. over and over again.
Mostly now I don't "observe" my own actions anymore, but now and again I do. It is unnerving.
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
By the way,I have purchased a program of dp/dr before,it said dp/dr are a product of tired mind/body.(it can be caused by worry,fear,grief,stress,anxiety,health issue..etc)
So,in my opinion,I dont think dp/dr are a symptom of lyme,it's a product of physical illness ,does it make sense?
dp/dr is a condition,not a illness.
Posts: 158 | From pittsburgh | Registered: Aug 2009
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CD57
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posted
I have had this on and off for 3 yrs since starting treatment. It is hands down one of the worst anyone should have to deal with as it makes your life seem completely surreal.
Interesting to know that it may be adrenal in nature.
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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lyme in Putnam
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posted
I feel like I'm dead and its worst when I get up. Dream clear and don't recognize myself in the mirror, doing everything. This is not living. When alive, appreciate everything and are in your full senses. This is deadness.
-------------------- He took u to it, He'll you through Posts: 2837 | From NE. | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
feelbetter-I didn't have this feeling until this past December when my health took a huge nose dive (Adrenal failure and Lyme coming out of remission).
I had the feelings for a couple months almost constantly, and then I had it about half the time for another month or so. Now I get it rarely and can fight it off if I focus. I know that sounds strange. The biggest things for me are getting rest and watching my diet/vitamins and of course taking my necessary Addison's medications and Lyme abx.
When I do feel an attack coming on, now I don't get scared or anxious of it, I just acknowledge it, and start doing something quiet, like reading or watching a nature show or something.
The first month I had it was so awful, I thought I was going schizo to be honest. At that point though I was very dehydrated, severely low in blood salt and blood pressure, and suffering from simple partial seizures. Once i got those things stablized though, it took a while to deal with the depersonalization/derealization.
Like I said previously, I went after it medically and nutrionally first, and after that I went after it with cognitive therapy which is why now I have some control over it when I do get it. Its always unsettling and unpleasant though.
Posts: 594 | From NJ/NY | Registered: Jun 2006
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sutherngrl
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I think this can be two-fold. It can be a symptom of LD and it also can be caused from the stress of dealing with a chronic illness. I think it is much worse when you get if from both angles.
I have experienced this feeling many times throughout my struggle with LD; but now after 2 years of treatment, it comes much less often. I use to get it daily several times a day or maybe even constantly all day. It does make you feel like you are loosing your mind.
I would describe the feeling as feeling far away from myself. I would look at my hands but feel like they were not mine. Its a feeling of anxiety mixed with being disconnected.
I think when you get this feeling, it causes a panic reaction to take place which then increases the feeling even more.
Xanax has helped me a lot to deal with the anxiety part.
I can tell that with treatment it is gradually getting better.
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thanks Keebler
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