posted
Yesterday I started a new herbal protocol per my llmd.
All I have to say is, WOW.
I'm starting with six drops three times a day for ten days. Then 8 drops 3 times a day for 10 days...working my way up to 10 drops of each 3x day.
One tincture is for lyme, one for bart, and one for babs.
Took my 6 drops of each yesterday morning. By 1:00, right before my second dose, all hell broke loose.
Started with crushing fatigue, air hunger, migrating pain, sore neck and headache, fever like feelings, chills.
This then progressed to foggy head, SEVERE emotional jag(crying and fighting with every family member minus my son).
I felt like I was losing my mind and wanted to escape my own body. After only ONE dose of each!
In all the months of treating, I've never had such a strong reaction. Not to antibiotics, and not to any other herbs such as olive leaf, Art, GSE, or anything else I've taken.
Nor have I had such a definite herx. Throughout treatment, I've always wondered if what I was feeling was a herx or lyme and co's cycling. The herx's were very subtle.
This time is was blaringly obvious!
Eventually, I had to take a klonopin and lock myself in my bedroom. I've never taken a klonopin in the afternoon. Only on occasional mornings when my cortisol surge strikes.
So anyway, just felt like sharing and saying "wow". I never thought an herb could do so much.
I guess this is a good thing?
Kind of nervous about what today will bring Posts: 423 | From Upstate NY | Registered: May 2009
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tick battler
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
My kids herx on herbs too. Can you share what herbs you are taking?
Thanks, tickbattler
Posts: 1763 | From Malvern, PA | Registered: Jul 2009
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I haven't heard of some of these herbs and will definitely be googling, but any additional input from those with herbal experience would be appreciated.
Posts: 423 | From Upstate NY | Registered: May 2009
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
Some of those herbs are known for upsetting the parasites also. Might want to watch for deworming. Gross, I know.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
Yes, I did notice that and it's fine by me. I'd rather have them OUT!
I'll be on poop patrol. Posts: 423 | From Upstate NY | Registered: May 2009
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MariaA
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posted
Queen's Root is stillingia sylvatica (might have the spelling wrong- stillangia?).
It's a component of the BLT formula, too- though most of the other stuff in there is different. I'm surprised about the mixture in the Bb1 tincture- most of those aren't very strong herbs for killing stuff. They must really put a lot of faith in stillingia (which I somewhat agree with), and yes, it is used in small doses.
A lot of those are mild anti-parasiticals but often those herbs have a lot of action against various microbes (often both anti-viral and anti-bacterial and anti-fungal).
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
glm1111
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Member # 16556
posted
Wormwood and black walnuthull are strong antiparasitics. You might want to mention to your doctor that cloves kill the eggs and ask him to add it.
Definitely on the right track since parasites and worms play a MAJOR role in Lyme disease. Probably why you are getting results. Check out
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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CD57
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posted
You must see Dr H in NY? Dr H in CA Rxes these too, I am on the Bart formula.
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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You forgot the number one cardinal rule in tickborne treatment. Try only 1 new thing at a time. Everytime I ignore this with hubby we both regret it.
I would just pick 1 of the 3 tinctures and take that by itself for about a week and then add in the 2nd one and then the 3rd. Especially since these are formulas and not single herbs. By starting them all at the same time you have no idea which formula is working or not working or helping or not.
Personally it sounds to me like these formulas might be working the most on babs from the description of your symptoms.
Will come back to add some more info on the different herbs.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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MariaA
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Member # 9128
posted
I have such mixed feelings about formulas like this. I was just talking to Hoosiers51 about it because both of us are taking BLT tincture and she takes Crypto Plus (which is a bit like BLT with cryptolepsis herb added) whereas I'm still just taking Cryptolepsis plain, so I can dose it high since I believe that to be safe and I'm not sure about the crypto-plus formula's other herbs. My feeling is that some of the things in those tinctures should be dose-adjustable- for instance, in our BLT there's red root , which you should take frequently- but it's added to stillingia sylvatica and lomatium dissectum, which are INTENSE herbs that can make you herx like crazy and have possible side effects (lomatium rash), so if you take low doses to avoid the side effects, you're not getting any significant dose of red root.
I can understand why the naturopaths wanted to make a formula that patients don't need to think about, but I really don't think it works best this way, or they should at least separate the supportive herbs like red root from the intense 'killing' herbs like lomatium (stillingia falls into both categories, to confuse matters further!)
I like the fact that Buhner picked several safe herbs that are easy to acquire and wrote a book about the different actions of them all. There are herbs beyond the ones described in the book that are less 'do-it-yourself-friendly', like lomatium. the low-dose formulas like BLT are probably better than nothing for patients who dont have their brain together enough to make sense of all the different herbs and their dosages. But I have experienced the same thing that seibertneurolyme is describing- you can have problems when you start too many things at once and you may not get any sense of what is causing it, or for what reason. If it's possible to work on adding individual herbs first, it's probably better- or at least adding one Formula first if you've been given several formulas to take.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
posted
Brandi, my llmd's office supplies the tinctures and supplements I need so I have no idea where else you'd get them.
Thanks so much for everyone's input.
Today is SO much better.
Haven't had any herxing at all. Awoke with a slightly sore neck but that has abated.
I've been outside all day enjoying the weather, which I couldn't do yesterday.
I cleaned out a couple of flower beds and pruned some trees and also played with the kids and dogs a bit too. Then came in and did my pilates tape and gently bounced on the rebounder for a while.
I guess I've been trying to distract myself by staying busy so I don't have a repeat of yesterday...I know, not really possible to head off a herx this way but that was my thinking this morning.
My energy is through the roof today. It's crazy how things can change so drastically from day to day.
I'm going to stick with this protocol at the doses recommended. I really trust my llmd and would like to give it a chance.
Keebler, I've had my adrenals checked and checked again. Things were not so great in the beginning but I've been on adrenal support for a while now and most of those issues have resolved.
The klonopin was a very low dose prescribed on an as needed basis. I was having a lot of adrenal surges earlier on and also had bartonella surface. This was causing me to feel anxious and panic, mostly in the morning. Things are better with that as well so I don't use the klonopin often at all.
Now I only have an occasional morning where the anxious/jittery feelings start up so I'll take one .25 mg pill to head that off.
So yesterday when I felt about ready to jump out of my skin, all I could think of to help with that was the klonopin.
"Forced rests" just cannot happen around here. It's not possible to feel calm and restful with 3 young kids and 3 dogs. They are very LOUD and someone is always needing something.
Anyway, I feel good about the way I handled things yesterday. It was absolutely horrible for a while but I got through it.
I'm very lucky that my significant other was here in the evening to allow me that escape to my room. He took one look at me(after I tore into him for no real reason) and suggested it himself. I layed down on my bed with a book and my lemon water next to me, then fell asleep around 8:30 or so.
I'm hoping the upcoming days are more like today has been. And if they aren't, I'll do as some suggested and lower the doses or ease into them one at a time.
I'm usually very tough with meds and discomfort and didn't expect to feel so out of my mind from an herbal protocol, which is really why I wanted to post my experience.
Thanks again for the thoughts, experiences, and knowledge. Hopefully I won't be back on here whining tomorrow...haha.
Posts: 423 | From Upstate NY | Registered: May 2009
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How have you been making out with the bart tincture? Have you been herxing and/or seeing improvement?
Posts: 423 | From Upstate NY | Registered: May 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Topaz,
I have an deep admiration for your part with: " 3 young kids and 3 dogs."
I will go back and delete all I wrote about rest and time-outs and rest as I'm sure it sounded like I was coming from the land of the Easter Bunny.
Yes, that 1/4 of a klonopin has been the dose that works for someone I know with similar symptoms. I will go back and delete some of suggestions as you seem pretty much on board with so much of this and now that I hear more about it, what I posted just is not in synch.
Sorry it's such a rough ride. Hope this settles down for a bit of an easier ride. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Keebler, I wish you hadn't deleted your post!
I always appreciate what you have to say and it was good information. I'm sure there are others going through a similar situation who would benefit from your suggestions.
Just because I don't get any forced rests, doesn't mean everyone else is in the same boat.
No, I didn't think you were coming from the land of the Easter Bunny...just a land that I'd love to visit from time to time.
I admit to being a little bit envious of those able to take time outs and have quiet time when they need to.
Sometimes it's so difficult to escape the commotion around here. I usually do o.k. with it, it's times like last night where I can't get away and am feeling horrible and weird that are tough.
Then again, I shouldn't complain. I'm lucky to be a stay at home mom and do get to rest if I need to while the kids are at school. Then I just have the dogs staring at me or barking at something out the window...lol.
Getting ready to take my evening doses and so far all is well.
Thanks for the kind words.
Posts: 423 | From Upstate NY | Registered: May 2009
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
posted
I think I tried Bar-1. Finished it and threw the bottle away, so I don't have it now.
I thought I recall Rosemary being an ingredient in Bar-1? Or is there a picture of an herb (a stem with green leaves) on the label, that looks like rosemary (so my brain thought rosemary was in it)?
And the liquid itself was kinda thick, not watery?
Anyways, Bar-1 didn't make me herx or seem to do much....but at that point, it's possible my Bart was knocked down pretty low. Not sure. Or maybe it was just not the right blend for my Bart.
I agree with Maria's point on a case-by-case basis. For example, BLT seems perfect for me....so I"m willing to just take it as a "blend." But with Crypto-Plus, I'm thinking I might just replace it with regular cryptolepsis, so I can adjust the dose more.
If these tinctures are doing something for you, that's great!
I have been very impressed with some of the tinctures I've taken so far. They seem just as effective as antibiotics, if not, more effective in some cases. So far I like BLT and Enula the most. Both seem very powerful for me.
It seems that it varies person-to-person, what the right and wrong tinctures are.
Keep at it! Good luck! Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Yes Hoosiers, that sounds like the same bottle with the picture of the herb on it. No rosemary in it though and definitely not thick.
What you gals are saying makes a lot of sense to me, about adjusting/omitting each ingredient depending on what your body needs. I just have NO clue how to do this!
Soooo, I am going with my llmd and the combined tinctures on this one. Maybe as I get going a bit more with these tinctures, adjustments can be made.
Hopefully this will finish me off nicely though. I really do feel like I'm nearing remission. *fingers crossed*
(and truth be told I'm kinda wishing I'd herx like I did yesterday again so I know it's working)
How sick is that??
Posts: 423 | From Upstate NY | Registered: May 2009
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posted
Brandimc -- Here is a source for the tinctures discussed in this thread. Personally I think they are way overpriced at $49.98 per each one ounce bottle -- At 10 drops 3 times per day a one ounce bottle would last one month. But if you are taking 3 different tinctures it adds up quickly.
Maria -- Pretty much agree with you that individual tinctures work better than formulas for most people. I did find one reference to using redroot in homeopathic doses which is what I would say is being done with these formulas.
Yes there are other lyme and coinfection herbs besides the Buhner herbs and Zhang and Cowden choices. Here is another source of tincture formulas which are slightly different than any of the others discussed.
Topaz -- Obviously everyone is different and responds differently to different herbs. Hubby has taken probably 80% or more of the herbs listed in the 3 formulas -- although not all at the same time -- but he took much higher doses of what he did take.
For example -- he is currently treating bartonella agressively. Besides his antibiotics -- the herbs he is taking include:
Cats claw capsules -- recently increased from 3 per day to 6 per day
Sarsaparilla capsules -- total of 12 per day
Burdock seed tincture -- 15 drops 2 times per day
Milk thistle capsules -- 3 per day
Oregon grape root tincture -- 3 or 4 droppers 2 times per day (90 - 120 drops)-- great for controlling candida
I do have a bottle of Pau d'Arco tincture -- had been planning to add this in as I read somewhere else recently that it might help with bart
Mullein -- Also have a bottle of this tincture in my stash -- here is a link to using this for Bell's Palsy from Lyme
Hubby is on many other herbs besides those I have listed. But he has never taken the Queens root or Rue (I have a bottle of that in my stash as well) -- I personally think the Cat's Claw, Queen's Root and Rue and Wormwood are probably the most potent of the herbs in the formulas.
Here is another list I found that includes some other herbal choices. See the Master Lymes List at this link.
posted
For those looking for other herbal tincture formulas here is one more. I actually have a bottle of this in my stash as well which hubby has not tried yet.
Phyto Lymex comes in a 4 ounce bottle -- instructions are to take 1/2 or 1 teaspoon 2 or 3 times daily. At 1 teaspoon 3 times daily the total daily dose would be 1/2 ounce and a 4 ounce bottle would last 8 days.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
I also found a couple of sources for stilingia -- although from my research I think this herb is very similar to poke root and is primarily used for lymphatic function not as a killing herb.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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MariaA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9128
posted
It's mostly listed for lymphatic function, except that early 20th century doctors used it for syphilis, which tells you something. Some of those guys really knew what they were doing with herbs.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
sparkle7
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Member # 10397
posted
Yes. The herbs are quite powerful. I think I'm more sensitive to herbs than I am to drugs. For some reason, I feel more of the healing intensity with herbs.
I haven't tried many of these herbs since I started with the Cowden protocol. It's pretty confusing at first to pick & choose which ones to take. After you take them for a while, it may get easier.
The Cowden protocol starts off with single herbs. I can see the benefit of that. It makes it easier to tell which herb does what. I think blends are beneficial, too. It's just hard to pull it apart to see if one has more effect or if you have an adverse reaction.
With herbs, it's easier to stop or decrease dosage if you are in too much of a herx. I don't think that's a good idea with drugs - especially abx.
If you have parasites & you start taking anti-parasite herbs - it can get very intense. It's not something to play around with. If you combine it with herxing from killing Lyme or co-infections - it could be pretty severe.
I would try to kill parasites at a different interval than trying to kill Lyme or co-infections. That's just my experience... Killing parasites was very difficult for me. I wouldn't want to be doing that at the same time as herxing from some other pathogen.
The die off also needs to be addressed. It may be easier for some but it was hard to me to detox from the die off of the parasites. It all takes time.
I've been ill for a long time, though. It may be different depending on how long you have been ill or your genetics. Herbs are very personal.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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MariaA
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posted
the confusing issue is that some of the anti-parasite herbs also kill bacteria. Whether that's killing Lyme or killing less sophisticated bacteria like opportunistic infections is going to be a case-by-case basis sort of thing- Buhner looked at a lot of herbs with an eye towards how systemic an herb's constituents act/whether they cross the blood-brain barrier. And herbalists don't always agree on those issues, and the research isn't always clear, and herbs have more than one action (like the stillingia example above) to make things even more confusing.
All of which makes me really hate this 'expensive formula' trend.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
Contraindications: Pregnant and nursing women should not use this herb. Stillingia Root is best when combined with other herbs and should be used only under the supervision of a knowledgeable health care provider. Since the herb may be highly irritating to mucous membranes, great caution should be exercised with its use. Excess use may cause diarrhea and vomiting. Stillingia should not be stored more than two years.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
posted
just wondering if these tinctures have alcohol in them and if they can be taken with flagyl. If so i have heard that you can cook out the alcohol but i dont know if that changes it or not. I am currently not on any herbs just a bunch of antibiotics that dont seem to be working.
Posts: 58 | From Silicon Valley | Registered: Sep 2008
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
I agree with you, MariaA. We don't need to take expensive formulas. I was getting the Cowden herbs for free & it was a good way to get introduced to the basic concepts of treating Lyme with herbs.
If one studies hard - they can do it with less expensive formulas or single herbs you can buy in bulk.
I think you can put the tincture in some hot water to evaporate the alcohol. I don't know if it will effect the properties of the plant. I guess it depends on the herb.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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MariaA
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posted
Most herbal tinctures are fine in hot water.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
posted
My daughter just started taking teasel tincture, one drop twice a day and after two days is feeling like every time she turns around in bed, the room spins, do you think this has anything to do with the teasel? So soon?
Posts: 10 | From Miami, Florida | Registered: Apr 2010
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Hoosiers51
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posted
Probably, cp.
The BLT tincture has Teasel in it, and when I started BLT, I got really bad vertigo for the first few days, and this was at low doses.
I think personally that it was a herx.
I think it felt like the room was spinning (can't remember if it felt like the room was spinning or I was spinning...but in essence, what's the difference?)....hard to remember exactly what it felt like because my memory is so bad. But I do remember it was severe vertigo and I wrote it down.
I would just get it in waves though...it wasn't constant.
The vertigo started after the first dose, and it only lasted like 3 days max, I would say. I also had really terrible headaches.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Haley
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Member # 22008
posted
Watch out for Cryptoplus and the ingredient Lomatium. You can get lomatium rash.
I just got back from a seminar with Dr. B. , Dr. H west coast, and Dr. S. west coast. It was confirmed that Lomatium can cause a head to toe rash (I had it but didn't know what it was from at the time). I was very ill (not in a herx way).
One of the doctors said that this is not an allergy it actually brings out the Measles in some people. I didn't understand that as I believe I have been vaccinated for the measles. People have ended up in the hospital.
Just a warning.
MariaA knows what she is talking about.
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