Bugg
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posted
Did anyone ever figure out a good ratio that works for you?
As most of us on this board know, people with lyme are often low in magnesium. As you start to raise your Vitamin D levels, this can interfere with magnesium as it is a co-factor in Vitamin D conversion (ie the utilization increases).
I've hit that mark in my Vitamin D intake (I just started trying to raise my levels about a month ago) where I'm now getting an increase in fatigue/sleepiness and cramping especially in my feet and ankles. I read that this is due to a lack of magnesium and that the cramping is caused by mobilization of calcium.
Anyone know if this is true or have any experience with this???
Anyone figure out a good ratio of magnesium of Vitamin D as you try to raise your D levels?
(FYI, I can't do mag IVs or IMs anymore so only oral mag (MagTabSR) is what is available to me).
Thanks for any help!!!!
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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tickled1
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OMG,
I recently upped my Vitamin D intake and I'm getting the cramping as well! I had no idea this could be related.
I kind of notice though that anytime I start supplementing with something that it kind of throws something else out of whack. It almost seems impossible to find the right balance w/everything and to maintain that balance.
It makes me wonder if I should just not take anything. I mean, aren't I doing more harm than good if I'm throwing myself out of balance this way?
Posts: 2541 | From Northeast | Registered: Jan 2008
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sutherngrl
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I have been taking large doses or prescription D and I actually noticed that when I skipped my magnesium for a week that I felt better.
Don't know if it was just coincidental or not. I had the flu/crud and just skipped all my supplements for that week. For some reason the pain was less than usual. Maybe it was just that I didn't do anything that week.
Anyway, I started back on my supplements and the mag, only 100mg a day, and I am going to see how it goes.
My doc did say something about when you are taking large doses of D that you can temporarily have symptoms like you mention; but he didn't say anything about it relating to magnesium.
Maybe the body is able to balance these things out itself in time. Sometimes I think we under estimate what our own bodies are capable of.
I am going to take my supplements for a couple of weeks, then take another break and see what happens.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I can't wait to back off from the vitamin D and see what happens. I'm taking 5000units a day. I have been twitching and cramping so much. Maybe that's part of it.
Posts: 152 | From West Palm Bech, FL | Registered: May 2008
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sutherngrl
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Make sure to get your D checked before you back off. You want it in the upper range of normal. Takes 2000 to 4000 IUs per day to maintain your D level.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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Bugg
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Member # 8095
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Anthropisces-
I'm not by any means advocating backing off from Vitamin D. I'm just saying that I think many of us who take Vitamin D may need to take even more magnesium since the D uses it as a co-factor. Many of us are deficient in mag due to the disease and abx usage.
Try loading some magnesium (I prefer taking more in the evening with a large meal as it can make me sleepy).
I was hoping someone had been through this before and knew of a good ratio of mag to D....Maybe someone will come along with this info....
Oh I also wanted to mention that another thing besides the cramping that made me think I needed more mag was the Vitmain D was increasing some depression and causing severe afternoon sleepiness (this didn't happen when I first started loading the Vitamin D....happened about 3 weeks to a month in)...Now that I'm taking more mag, those symptoms are going away....
I'm just still trying to find the correct balance.....
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Bugg, You are good to openly say that you are not giving medical advice. I didn't take it that way. I have in the past noticed that magnesium helped out with twitching.
Some months ago, maybe five months, six months...I don't remember,my doc advised me that Vitamin D deficiency was important to manage and could be a contributing factor. I was feeling pretty darn good then, not much different than any person you might meet.
But three months ago I started getting symptoms again, and (after starting Rifampin), my left upper quadrant muscles were really hopping around. Later, they just cramped up or something happened to cause severe arm and shoulder pain. I'm talking, "let's get the rawhide out and clench down on it pain a few times." Mostly its nowhere near that bad, but it hurts pretty bad right now.
I thought I was eating 5000IUs of Vitamin D3. To be accurate I just went and looked at the bottle and found out that I'm actually taking 10,000IUs of Vitamin D3.
I have seen the association between Magnesium and twitching. I actually just started loading Magnesium a few days ago.
But I am going to back off the D3 for sure. I'm not going to be reckless, I'll take a little. Back when I was taking none I was fine (sort of). Is there a relationship between all the D3 I've been taking, Magnesium and my recent symptoms? I don't know. I do know that I'm accidentally taking twice as much as my doc and I discussed.
Posts: 152 | From West Palm Bech, FL | Registered: May 2008
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TF
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Member # 14183
posted
"In the Lyme patient, low vitamin D levels can cause diffuse body aches and cramps that are not responsive to magnesium or calcium supplements. Some also believe that vitamin D is essential for normal immune and hormone function. I strongly urge you to have a fasting blood level drawn. It is recommended that the blood levels be in the upper half of the normal range." (quote from p. 30 of Burrascano)
So, this says that low Vit D can cause cramps.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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Bugg
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Member # 8095
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Antropisces-
You may not be aware that Rifampin can reduce Vitamin D as it metabolizes it. (Google Rifampin and Vitamin D). I don't know if your D levels were low and the Rifampin exacerbated it or vice versa. I've posted two excerpts below for you from medical sites:
Rifampin has enzyme induction properties that can enhance the metabolism of endogenous substrates including adrenal hormones, thyroid hormones, and vitamin D. Rifampin and isoniazid have been reported to alter vitamin D metabolism. In some cases, reduced levels of circulating 25-hydroxy vitamin D and 1, 25-dihydroxy vitamin D have been accompanied by reduced serum calcium and phosphate, and elevated parathyroid hormone.
Also, from Medline Plus:
Rifampin increases vitamin D metabolism and reduces vitamin D blood levels. The need for vitamin D supplementation with rifampin has not been thoroughly studied, although additional supplementation may be necessary.
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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Bugg
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TF-
I'm so glad you posted that excerpt that explains Vitamin D can cause muscle cramps. That's just an important point to clarify. Yes, Vitamin D impacts our muscles and can cause cramping/throbbing/or aching in muscles when it's low.
The way I distinguish cramping from TAKING Vitamin D versus cramping from low Vitamin D is by looking at the timing. For ex., after I take Vitamin D, I usually start cramping in my feet, legs, or ankles an hour later, especially if I'm doing a lot of standing.
Apparently other non-lyme patients can experience cramping upon initiating vitamin D supplements. Again, it begs the question as to whether the cramping is caused by the Vitamin D metabolizing too much magnesium or is it caused by calcium being moved or what exactly?????
You also reminded me to make another point which might help some. I've kind of learned to tell when my body is twitching due to Vitamin D deficiency versus magnesium deficiency. For ex., if I keep taking magnesium (loading it) and the twitches just never respond at all to it, then I start thinking it might be a Vit D deficiency issue.....Hope this helps someone....
Again, if anyone has figured out a great ratio of mag to Vitamin D, I would love to hear about it....
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Dawn in VA
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Bugg, I'm trying to find the right D:Mg ratio as well. Haven't found it yet. I have been using 3 different forms of Mg, too, hoping that one of them might help hit the sweet spot.
-------------------- (The ole disclaimer: I'm not a doctor.) Posts: 1349 | From VA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Bugg
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Dawn in VA-
Have you noticed any difference in your symptoms taking the magnesium plus the Vitamin D versus just taking Vitamin D alone?
thanks!!!
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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tickled1
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Another thing for me personally to consider with all of this is that my electrolytes tend to be out of whack as I have POTS/dysautonomia. I drink a lot of gatorade/water and eat tons of salt to help with symptoms.
So I think for me it would be near impossible to find the right balance and stay there as I think my levels fluctuate so much.
I'm not taking any multivitamin/mineral supplements right now. I am only taking Vitamin D 2000IU and just started w/Magnesium again at 250mg a day. Strangely, I initially started w/just Magnesium a few mos. ago and and ended up having a huge relapse of symptoms and ended up needing IV fluids. So, I stopped the Magnesium b/c I didn't know if there was a connection. I also had an increase in cramping at that time but it may have not been from the Magnesium itself but maybe taking just Magnesium threw my other elctrolytes out of balance.
So, anyway I worry that with me if I don't get the balance right it can really mess me up and I'll need to get IV fluids again. I'm going to start getting Chronic illness IV's from my new doctor that has a bunch of stuff in it:
amino acids B6 B12 B-complex Calcium Gluconate Glutathione Magnesium Sulfate Mineral Mix Pantothenic Acid Taurine Sterile water added
I'm thinking when I start those I'll only take Vitamin D. I'm supposed to get them 1-2 times per week but I don't think I'll be able to afford more than 1 every other week as they're $150 each!
Wish me luck!
Posts: 2541 | From Northeast | Registered: Jan 2008
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TF
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Vitamin D has co-factors that the body needs in order to utilize vitamin D properly. They are: *magnesium *zinc *vitamin K2 *boron *genestein *a tiny amount of vitamin A Magnesium is the most important of these co-factors. In fact, it is common for rising vitamin D levels to exacerbate an underlying magnesium deficiency. If one is having problems supplementing with vitamin D, a magnesium deficiency could be the reason why. Read more about vitamin D's co-factors!"
Then, when you click on the link to Vitamin D's co-factors, you go to a page that says this:
"Dr. Cannell: Is it important to take magnesium with vitamin D? Judith, New York Yes, it is important to have adequate magnesium intake and most Americans do not. A number of people have written about muscle cramps after they start sunbathing or taking Vitamin D. This is likely caused from the neuromuscular hyperexcitability of magnesium deficiency that is somehow unmasked by higher Vitamin D levels."
He goes on to say "Apparently, Mg is better absorbed from foods than from supplements and Mg absorption varies with the degree of Mg deficiency."
He says to eat nuts and seeds to get good amounts of magnesium. "The richest source by far on a per gram basis is dried seeds, like pumpkin, sunflower, and sesame seeds."
So, based on this site, if you get muscle twitching and cramping when you start taking Vitamin D, you most likely need to take a lot more magnesium. The vit D is exacerbating an underlying magnesium deficiency.
Also, each person is going to be different based on the amount of magnesium deficiency they have.
Why not keep increasing your magnesium level until you get diarrhea. Then, add in vit D until you get to the amount you really need. If the diarhhea stops when vit D is added, add more magnesium until you again get diarhhea.
That should be your personal magnesium maximum, I would think. Take a little less than the amount that causes diarhhea.
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tickled1
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Interesting that over the last several days I've added Magnesium back in alongside the Vitamin D and I feel better than I have in a couple of months.(knock on wood)
Posts: 2541 | From Northeast | Registered: Jan 2008
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www.mgwater.com is a cool site that has tons of info on magnesium and its many uses.
Something to consider is the kind of magnesium. I was told about Magnesium Glycinate, and I must say that I can hardly walk if I don't take it. I also supplement with about 3K of VitD daily. my experience too is when I am low in Potassium is when I have cramps in legs and feet. and so many potassium rich fruits are off my list (no flour no sugar life) and I need to supplement that too! Laura: there are some great drinks like Red Drink and Green Drink that help with supplementing when IVs are too pricey. I am on a PICC and make my banana bags myself. Ask your LLMD if you can do IM vitamins yourself. and of course...Juicing is a great source too. Best!
-------------------- AzDaisy life requires action Posts: 58 | From Tucson, AZ | Registered: Apr 2010
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sutherngrl
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Okay, I am going to increase my magnesium intake and see what happnes. Since I've started taking high doses of D, I feel awful. Which is really strange because in 2007 before I got my Lyme diagnosis, I took mega D and felt so much better.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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It can be so hard for me to correlate changes in symptoms with changes in diet, supplementation, etc.
My arm/upper left quadrant feels better today. As I mentioned I was accidentally taking 10,000iu of Vitamin D. I am only taking 2000iu now.
I also doubled my daily Magnesium/Calcuim. This all occurred about three days ago. I still have some cramping in some areas and there is still some muscle jumping.
I actually woke up this morning for a reason other than pain!
If this is a trend I'll be pretty happy. So far my digestive system is not complaining about the extra Mag
Posts: 152 | From West Palm Bech, FL | Registered: May 2008
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tickled1
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I just checked my drug interactions on drugs.com and it said not to take D3 and Magnesium together. that is could cause Hypermagnesia and bone problems. What's that all about?
Posts: 2541 | From Northeast | Registered: Jan 2008
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