Topic: Which is Better: Artemisia or specific ingredient Artemisinin?
Starphoenix
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2402
posted
Hello, folks.
As I can no longer take Zith/Mepron for various reasons (not the least of which is insurance), I'm trying artemisinin for Babs.
Buhner suggests 300 mgs. per day for a month, but that seems low, especially for someone as ridiculously infected as I. I'm thinking of bumping that up and doing it for five months as a well-known expert recommends (to go one extra month beyond life cycle of rbc). Worried about liver, etc. I don't have an LLMD (long story), and no one to check basic labs like this.
Anyhoo: I know that artemisia contains many active, helpful ingredients and that artemisinin is only one, though a very important one.
Have you had more success with the artemisinin or full-on artemisia? I know that even though you get more with artemisia, you get weaker availability of any particular active ingredient.
I need to get at this good once, and hopefully, for all.
-------------------- Learning to love, and loving to learn. Posts: 1318 | From Shohola, PA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- I'm not sure there is a definitive answer to that.
As you say, yeah, the raw herbs are less strong but there are also elements that are left out of the extract process. It's not always about the stronger one but, of course there is the consideration that the raw herb, alone, may not be strong enough.
Read from many different sources. There are differing opinions and valid ideas from those who say the whole herb and from those who say the extract (artemisinin).
Buhner's book is different from what Zhang has to say about this. And I find both equally compelling in their reasoning.
Regarding the decision whether to use raw herb or extract, in general, sometimes both forms are used as each has properties the other does not.
Also, neither one is enough alone. All babesia protocols require combined therapy. (Just start each one separately for a few days or week to see how you do with that).
It is always best to have a LLMD or LL ND to guide you. (ND = naturopathic doctor). There are some LL ND who are ILADS members. Support groups could guide you there.
Some LLMDs and LL NDs pulse artemisinin. Some say use every day for so long. It is an art and the decision may rest on how well you do with one vs. the other, too. Rotation can be in order at time.
It's best to START with a low dose, one supplement at a time.
I'll be back with some a few links. In the meantime, you might search through Google Scholar to avoid getting mostly commercial links from a search. PubMed, too, is invaluable and has many abstracts on both artemesia and artemisinin.
Backing up, you said you are concerned about your liver. Artemesinin can be hard to tolerate as it requires the Cytochrome P-450 liver detox pathway and that is often very stressed for lyme patients. Therefore, excellent liver support needs to accompany use of artemisisin.
Still, not everyone can tolerate it. Yet, while there really is no babesia treatment that is a walk in the park, adjusting liver support can help make the difference in how well it can be tolerated.
Artemisia may be more easily tolerated but that seems an individual thing - liver support is still vital. Milk thistle is the typical one but there are others, too. Andrographis also has its place. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Starphoenix
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2402
posted
Thanks so much, Keebler!
I don't have an LLMD at this juncture. Long story!
I think that, once I can order more herbs, I'll do a mix of both, maybe one dose extract, two doses herb, or what have you. I'm taking red root capsules, too. I hope they don't interact. Buhner mentions both for Babs, so I guess it's fine.
I take a lot of drugs for symptoms, and I have no idea if they interact with the herbs, too. That's just a side note. I hate that I have to do this completely on my own right now.
PubMed. I may have to check that out!
I appreciate your very valuable input. And I do sometimes try to push too quickly. Slow and steady wins the race, huh?
-------------------- Learning to love, and loving to learn. Posts: 1318 | From Shohola, PA | Registered: Apr 2002
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- If the meds for symptoms use the C P-450 liver detox pathway, they can interact with others that do, too. You can find out by cross searching the name of your med with these terms:
P450, Rx name
porphyria, Rx name
Also check the "porphyria safe" lists at the organization links in these threads. Self-care helps keep excess porphyrins down. As well as the excess cytokine response in a herx, some of a herx' pain can be from excess porphyrins if the liver can't do its job.
Sometimes, if an med or herb triggers tinnitus, that can be a sign that it's hard on your liver.
PORPHYRIA (discussion thread - as relating to lyme) -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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karenl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 17753
posted
I get started on Hepasunate 50 soon, as it is said to also work for viruses. I will only start once a week and low dose.
Posts: 1834 | From US | Registered: Oct 2008
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Starphoenix
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2402
posted
Wow. Thanks! I have MCS, have major issues processing drugs....maybe this is why.
I take so many drugs that don't even help anymore, but I can't stop quickly due to withdrawals.
I never heard of Hepasunate. I'll look that up now. Viruses, too? I have chronic EBV and HHV-6.
I appreciate all the valuable help!
-------------------- Learning to love, and loving to learn. Posts: 1318 | From Shohola, PA | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by karenl: I get started on Hepasunate 50 soon, as it is said to also work for viruses. I will only start once a week and low dose.
Hey will you let me know how you do on Hepasunate 50? I just got mine a couple days ago. I'm herxing right now from rifing so I'm not going to start them for a week or so.
Thanks Kathy
-------------------- You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have. Posts: 807 | From South Dakota | Registered: Jul 2005
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-------------------- You never know how strong you are until being strong is the only choice you have. Posts: 807 | From South Dakota | Registered: Jul 2005
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
This website has alot of info but it directed towards treating cancer with artemesia -
I have also read that you need to have adequate iron levels for it to work. You also need to take anti-oxidants since it creates alot of free radicals when killing the babesia. If you have any hearing problems - you are taking too much & discontinue it immediately.
There are some good books about it. Try searching for artemesia on Amazon under medicine. There are several extracts of artemesia with different names & properties. It's good to study it further. I don't know "the" answer. It's strong stuff - so start with a low dose & work it up.
Dr. Z in NYC says you may need to take it for 9 months. I'm sure it good to take precautions since it's a strong herb - like liver support. I'm taking NAC.
Hope this helps. I'd study it further. I have other things I have to do right now so I can't post any more for the moment.
Holley pharmaceuticals may have a good quality product but I haven't tried it yet.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- This book that outlines how the body systems work with supplements:
MENU on left of page will take you to the BASICS OF HERBS - and beyond.
Amazon also carries it. This book does not discuss lyme or TBD protocol, still it is an excellent resource for so much, especially understand our liver, etc. Diets for certain kinds of illness are suggested.
Repeat: this book does NOT discuss any treatment for lyme (other than a passing reference to sarsaparilla at http://tinyurl.com/2eeqct ).
Still, it is an excellent place to start for understanding so much about human and plant life and how they work together.
===================================
A few ITM links regarding SAFETY and INTERACTIONS between herbal supplements and prescription meds:
Starphoenix
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 2402
posted
Thank you! I deeply appreciate your replies and terrific information. I checked out links and did some bookmarking.
Karenl: What is the correct dosing for the Hepasunate for Babs or viruses? I know it can be dangerous in some instances.
Would it be best for a person to take, in one day, artemisinin, artesunate, and whole herb? Is that a sufficient combination protocol?
I really wish I had a doctor monitoring me at this juncture.
I hope it's safe to take all products for five months, or four at least.
The porphyria idea really interests me, Keebler. Especially since nothing ever seemed to help me, and I have so many drug reactions and environmental sensitivities. It all began in '87 after I developed a very serious reaction to Sulfa, Stevens-Johnsons Syndrome. I think that may have triggered the porphyria(?). That's when I really went downhill in a major way.
If I can get my liver functioning properly, then maybe I can actually absorb the tx meds!
My iron is low. I may have to wait to take the art products. Sigh....I know I have to take them 2.5 hours from many of my meds and antioxidants, too.
-------------------- Learning to love, and loving to learn. Posts: 1318 | From Shohola, PA | Registered: Apr 2002
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