posted
I just read a brief overview of the Marshall Protocol.
I'm not sure of several things ...
Is the Marshall Protocol a viable and effective treatment option for Lyme
Regardless of whether the answer to the above is yes or no, DOES Vitamin D inhibit the ability of the immune system to work effectively in fighting disease, and therefore would taking Vitamin D supplements be contraindicated in a person trying to recover from Lyme?
Posts: 13 | From Connecticut | Registered: Dec 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Not everyone is a candidate for the MP. Only those with HIGH vitamin D.
Many lyme patients are LOW. Most of us need Vitamin D3 supplementation. It's a very serious need. If we don't have enough, our immune system cannot work well and we also don't absorb nutrients as we should.
And this is where testing of at least two different levels is important. You need to know what your levels are.
--------------
This is included in Burrascano's Guidelines, but you may want to be able to refer to it separately, too:
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- A: "Is the Marshall Protocol a viable and effective treatment option for Lyme?"
Just my opinion after researching it at length a few years ago: No. Not at all. MP is not really a lyme protocol at all. And, it's very strict. According to the creator of that, there should be no variations. If someone modifies it, it is no longer the MP. It is something different. And that is understandable.
But, bottom line, lyme treatment is not just lyme treatment. There are many other tick-borne and even other stealth infections to consider. No two patients are exactly alike.
The MP also limits the use of supportive supplements that help protect the liver. That is just as important as addressing infection and, in my opinion, simply cannot be omitted.
You can search further - and you must read the articles by J.C. Waterhouse in Townsend Letters in 2007. Two issues.
It was grueling and took a while, however, she did exceedingly well. But I don't recall if she had lyme. Search Google, find the home site for ``Townsend Letter'' and then search their archives.
posted
Thank you all for clarifying. My comprehension is shot these days. I wasn't sure if I was reading it right, and it's apparent I was not.
I DO have low vitamin D levels. Which level is being tested I could not tell you. But at 4,000 IU/day, I seem to be in a range my doctor is finally happy with.
I really appreciate all your responses. There's just SO much information to wade through and understand, and at a time when my cognitive skills are at their lowest, it's a challenge to say the least. So, I need all the help I can get! Thanks again!
Posts: 13 | From Connecticut | Registered: Dec 2009
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gwb
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Member # 7273
posted
Out of all of the protocols out there for Lyme disease, this is the one I would definitely avoid. I researched this throughly before I decided on the Jernigan protocol and was not impressed by what I read about it.
Most of the positive comments of the Marshall Protocol can only be found on Marshall protocol website. That says a lot right there.
posted
I do the MP and do way better on it and know many who have gone into remission as well as those that can't tolerate it. The deal on the MP is your Vit D is low but your d-1.25 is elevated. the elevated 1.25 needs to be checked by a lab such as quest that freezes your test not like lab corp.
I add things to the MP like rife these days but wouldn't recommend it at first as your herxing is too hard at first to add anything else to it. Nothing a LLMD threw at me made me herx as much as the MP. I will say it wouldn't be one of the first treatments I would start out for many reasons.
Good luck on whatever you decide to do.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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sutherngrl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16270
posted
Vitamin D is an immune modulator. If anything it should help your body's immune system do its job appropriately.
Forget MP and load up on vitamin D!
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- It is important to get both your levels tested. Too much D is toxic. Not enough is dangerous, too.
D3 is the preferred form in supplements. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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sutherngrl
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Member # 16270
posted
Oh yea, definetly get you D checked before supplementing and keep it checked often.
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Agree Keebler it is important to check both Vit D and D 1.25 levels. I would not supplement if my D 1.25 levels were high by a reliable lab.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
I had one of my symptoms--tinnitus--start up when supplementing with Vit D in 2004 before I found out I had Lyme. This has never gone away.
I had low "vit D" but VERY HIGH (toxic level) D-1,25 when tested!!
I never did the MP, but I did stop all Vit D supplements, cut out foods high in Vit D (including Vit D fortified milk), wear NoIR glasses when out during the day (don't have migraines anymore), and use the very high SPF sunblock.
My Lyme and co-infections situation has improved with most of the treatments I have done, which include Mepron/Zith, KPU treatment, parasite cleanses and Allergie-Immun. I'm currently working on heavy metal detoxing.
Buhner's herbal protocol produced seizures at low doses. I also had some bad reactions to individual antibiotics, but nothing as serious as the seizures.
I still hold the MP out there for myself as a possibility in the future.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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lightparfait
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22022
posted
JarJar... Do you know anyone who has done the MP...that now is taking no additional supplements or meds? Has it completely cured or regulated someone's system? OR does it allow a new regulation needing to keep up the supplements?
My friends on it, say they are feeling better than before...as they were extremely ill...but are not 100% now. They are frightened to try anything else, like Allergie Immun...as they fear reverting back to their previus poorer health.
They have been doing the MP for at least 4 years non stop...and do not see an end for them in the near future of taking the protocol? Another friend got sicker...it was not good for her...she found out years later.
Just wondering how many people actually get off of it, versus needing to stay on it to keep their mobility and lifestyle? lp
Posts: 1009 | From NJ | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
Lightparfait Yes I know of several people from this board that no longer post that went into full remission and stopped taking anything else. Two of them are Lonestartick and her husband. Last I visited with her she was felt 110% better in her words after going on a gluten free diet after getting well on the MP. Others like Semper Fi just don't post here any longer but he told me he as well as his doctor consider the disease is over.
Several years ago when I was seeing Dr. C he said he had several patients recover on the MP but at the same token he had others that couldn't tolerate it so it is a mixed bag of results like all treatments.
I think for some people like myself one needs to throw extra things in such as rife to hit the disease at all angles. I even worked with a little extra sea salt for one period and wiped out even more bacteria. But you have to be careful and not do this early in the game as you can end up with too big of a herx to handle.
MY first doctor and probably the most educated dr. of the mp in the states went from bed ridden to back to a full time medical practice. She was very open to adding things to the MP such as glyconutrutrients as well as many other things that Dr. M would not condone on his web site.
You have to consider though he was dealing with so many different people with so many different TH1 inflamation related diseases that he doesn't have the time to investigate how every single supplement will interact with the MP.
As far as actually giving you solid percentages of how many people actually go into full recovery and get off the protocol I don't know as I don't visit the site much and there are too many people who try it for about one year and say well I haven't recovered yet so I'm trying something else.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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t9im
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25489
posted
Remember its d3, in gel or liquid, not tablets. Blood levels below 30 is deficient and Dr. Hollick (runs the D clinic at BU) now indicates a level of 60.
I know many who consider a level of 80 fine.
Toxic comes into play over 100 (some indicate in the 150 area). I strive to keep mine in the 60 to 80 area.
-------------------- Tim Posts: 1111 | From Glastonbury, CT | Registered: Apr 2010
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Bugg
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Member # 8095
posted
Just fyi, there's a lot of misinformation on the web about 1,25D and what it means if the levels are high....
Please do your OWN research in Medline/PubMed, talk with your doctor before deciding NOT to supplement Vitamin D (D3) if your 1,25D levels are high.
Please note that 1,25D is the level in your kidneys as it pertains to calcium homeostasis....It IT NOT the level of the circulating hormone....
you can have a high 1,25D level and be PROFOUNDLY deficient in the vitamin D hormone itself.....You need a knowledgeable physician to guide you in supplementation as the concern with a high 1,25D level is calcium homeostasis....
Ex. I have a friend who has sarcoidosis. you will often read these patients SHOULD NOT supplement with vitamin D because their 1,25D levels are high. In fact, she didn't do this, had low vitamin 25OHD levels, and felt HORRIBLE. Her doctor had her take Vitamin D3 supplements and just monitored her calcium levels. She is much better now after 6 months of supplementation.
I would urge you to speak with your doctor about taking Vitamin D....
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Bugg, I think we are years away from truly learning everything there is to learn about vita D and Vita d 1.25 This info is from a sarcoidosis site. First of all, it is good that you are aware of the possible ''dangers'' associated with vitamin D and sarcoidosis, because there are an awful lot of doctors and specialists who are unaware of it.
My aim is to make people aware, but not terrified. We do this because this is a ''sarcoid'' site, this problem is one which ''sarcoid'' patients may have arising at some stage. 99% of the population will not have a problem with vitamin D. Of the 1% of the population who do, these will be made up of people such as those having problems with sensitivity to vitamin D. These are people with granulomatous diseases, sarcoidosis, histoplasmosis, Crohn's disease etc. Other people to have problems with D and calcium are people who have parathyroid tumours and others with malignancies such as lymphoma, oat cell carcinoma or breast and prostate cancer.
Of the sarcoid patients, 1 in 3-6 of them will manifest some sensitivity to vitamin D. Some of these will be asymptomatic but manifesting chronic hypercalciuria. Some of them will be so sensitive, even a good dose of the sun can cause hypercalcemia - but these are rare cases. Nevertheless they do happen. Still other patients will get a flare of their sarcoid symptoms if they take D, so they become sick before they have taken it long enough to develop hypercalcemia. Genes controlling VDR and parathyroid receptors determine how you react along with how chronic and widespread the disease is within you. Many people won't develop a problem until they get exogenous synthetic D prescribed for them. In other words, left to natural levels the system can cope, overload it with a pharmaceutical form of D and the coping flies out the window.
On the one hand, you may not need to worry. If you have lost weight and have been exercising and only had the disease diagnosed by accident, then you probably don't have widespread, chronic disease. Sure, your ACE is raised indicating active sarc. If you are relatively asymptomatic, D may have little affect on you. People who have sarcoid confined to the lungs often don't have a problem with D. Those who have it outside the lung, in the liver, spleen, nervous system and skin often have more factories of granuloma producing excess amounts of vitamin 1,25D.
Sarcoid experts will know about problems of hypercalcemia and sarc. A few doctors may know about it too. Very few realise that 1,25D actually proliferates the sarcoid disease process. This 1,25D substance programs bone marrow to make the cells which form granuloma at faster rates than cells would normally be produced in bone marrow. The same substance (i.e. 1,25D) also helps those extra cells to migrate into tissue to form granuloma, it also causes the cells to change and morph into giant cells which form the granuloma. So if you suddenly find yourself developing symptoms on vitamin D, you will know what caused it.
Ask your doc for a 1,25 hydroxy vitamin D test. If your ACE is high and your 25 hydroxy vitamin D is low, it is odds on the 1,25D will also be high. If it is, you don't have a vitamin deficiency, you just have a manifestation of the sarcoid disease process. Your doctor can reassure himself by testing the parathyroid hormone level. If you have a vitamin D deficiency, your parathyroid level will be slightly high, but if the sarcoid is causing the low 25D level, your parathyroid level will be lower than normal. If it is lower than normal, you don't have a D deficiency at all and taking vitamin D may potentially make you sicker.
The good stuff about D is not proven and remains a contested issue because there is no consensus around the world about ''normal'' and ''abnormal'' levels, RDA or even how much is ''safe'' and ''unsafe'' for human consumption. The amount of vitamin D we need and make varies with genetics, skin type and skin colour, as well as dress, geography and its relationship to the equator. We all make more in summer and less in winter. We don't need to make D every day.
There are two opposing factions regarding D in just about every western country. The pro D party have the biggest clout and make the biggest noise in the media because they are funded by companies who manufacture D or sun tan beds. The anti D party are made of of quacks and cranks, but also serious researchers who are funded by medical research grants or universities. Many of these researchers have no voice or clout, but they are more objective and less biased in their interests, because they are not profiting from the D industry. Many of these serious researchers are concerned that the pro Ders are wanting to up the RDAs and the amount added to cereal, marg, milk and juice. At the moment, the serious researchers have the upper hand with governments, FDA, etc. The Pro Ders are working through the media to influence the public to take supplements by brainwashing them into thinking they are making sound choices. Sunscreen has not been made yet that prevents all UV action on the skin. You must be careful about what you read in papers and magazines about how good D is for you. They often do not publish negative results such as higher levels of breast cancer in D takers as opposed to non D takers over a 15 year period. They just tell you there was more cancer in non D takers over a 4 year period.
Stay informed and read both sides of the debate, and keep reading the site. All the info is here and if you need more, there is a whole page at the D council site on sarcoidosis full of journal abstracts about D and sarc. You can also Google or Kindle Baughman's books or Sharma's books on Sarcoid. It is covered in their texts.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
I was on MP for almost 2 years and would not recommend it for Lyme.
My opinion is that it was too weak for me; it caused plenty of herx but just made all the sx worse.
The Semper Fi guy mentioned above was kicked off the MP.com web site a couple of months before I was. We were both disconcerted that we were doing much worse after years on the protocol. As part of the initial cohort, we were told to expect significant improvement in a year but were feeling much worse after 2.
I believe the protocol does target the bad guys but it absolutely did not work for me and the other Lymies that had preceded me.
A gluten- and dairy-free lifestyle as mentioned above seems to be more valuable, reducing inflammation and increasing the efficacy of other treatments.
Posts: 252 | From NJ USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
I wouldnt either
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
I understand the "why" of Benicar, but there maybe a safer alternative.
Olmesartan (trade names Benicar, Olmetec) is an angiotensin II receptor antagonist used to treat high blood pressure.
Adverse effects include headache, dizziness, diarrhea, hyperglycemia, flu-like symptoms, tachycardia, and upper respiratory tract infection.
Olmesarten does not cause cough more frequently than placebo does.
Mechanism of action
Olmesartan works by blocking the binding of angiotensin II to the AT1 receptors in vascular muscle; it is therefore independent of angiotensin II synthesis pathways, unlike ACE inhibitors.
By blocking binding rather than synthesis of angiotensin II, olmesartan inhibits the negative regulatory feedback on renin secretion.
As a result of this blockage, ****olmesartan reduces vasoconstriction and the secretion of aldosterone.***
This lowers blood pressure by producing vasodilation, and decreasing peripheral resistance.
Wikipedia
(Me...aldosterone comes FROM cholesterol. One of its functions is to control Na levels and this maybe a back up if vitamin B6 - active form is P5P/PLP - is too low because it helps also to control the Na-K balance.
Hyperglycemia is a ``side effect'' of the anti-seizure drugs. Depakote -> ``fatty liver'' which can be seen on a liver ultrasound.
EPA helps reduce AST and ALT - over time.
I understand why vasodilation is important and why getting aldosterone DOWN is important too because aldosterone upregulates epithelial sodium channel increasing apical membrane permeability for Na+.
Cl- is reabsorbed in conjunction with sodium cations to maintain the system's electrochemical balance .
(Frontline, to PREVENT lyme in our dogs works by blocking the chloride channels in TICKS.
I understand that the inflammatory cytokines, esp. TNF alpha cause vasoconstriction.)
But there maybe a better and safer alternative.
"A 4 week study using 0.9 g/day EPA found levels of beta-thromboglobulin and pressor response to angiotensin II reduced (Yoshimura et al 1987).
CONCLUSIONS: High-dose n-3 fatty acid supplementation resulted in an enhancement of the pregnancy-acquired refractoriness to angiotensin II.
PMID: 8828435 Refractoriness = resists/opposes.
Eicosapentaenoic acid inhibits voltage-gated sodium channels and invasiveness in prostate cancer cells.
PMID: 19154441
These results provide novel evidence that EPA not only rapidly inhibits INa, but also reduces the mRNA levels of the Na+ channel after cellular incorporation of EPA in cultured hBSMCs. (human bronchial smooth muscle cells)
Biochemical and Biophysical Research Communications, Volume 331, Issue 4, 17 June 2005, Pages 1452-1459
I'm not sure if this Rx has the right ``formulation'' - Lovaza
Possible Interactions:
Blood Pressure Medication -- Fish oil may lower blood pressure, so it could make the effects of prescription blood pressure medication stronger.
Anticoagulants (blood thinners) -- EPA in fish oil supplements may increase bleeding time, so fish oil could make the effects of these drugs stronger. The same does not appear to be true of DHA alone.
Diabetes medications -- Theoretically, fish oil supplements may lower levels of glucose in the blood and could make effects of diabetes drugs stronger. If you have diabetes, talk to your doctor before taking fish oil.
Aspirin -- In combination with aspirin, fish oil could be helpful in the treatment of some forms of coronary artery disease. However, this combination may also increase the risk of bleeding. Talk to your doctor to see if this combination is right for you.
posted
Dsie, I sent a PM to Semper Fi around a year ago or more and asked him how he was doing with the MP. and he said he felt great and thought the disease was over with as well as his Doc.
I stayed in touch with several MP patients thru PM and I feel very strong it was Semper although that is a popular Marine term to use so it could have been someone else.
I was fortunate enough to work with a doc my first year that took the basics of the MP but added things that didn't interfere with the Mp to help lyme/cfs/fm.
I will agree that site sucks as they try to do a one size fits all diseases treatment. Which they really have to do since they are just giving out advice for many Th1 diseases over the internet to hundreds of people.
I really wouldn't recommend anyone to do the MP and just follow what they say on the MP board for lyme. Too many other issues to address.
Marnie, Olmesartan is what I use. It basically does the same thing as benicar and WAY cheaper.
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