Topic: LLD wants me on Nutrimetrix OPC-3 for inflammation; options? Can't afford!
Tracy9
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posted
My sed rate is 45 (supposed to be 0-20) and my Cardio C Reactive Protein is 11.5 (very high, in danger zone.) My LLD says my inflammation is VERY high and I have to get it down.
I have an autoimmune disease caused by Lyme and/or Bartonella, I think inflammation is part of that but I have trouble keeping all that stuff straight.
Anyway I do take fish oil and magnesium, but he has wanted me on this supplement for months. It is very expensive, with the amount he wants me to take I'll need two bottles per month at $70 per bottle. I did buy one bottle but promptly lost it.
I simply cannot possibly afford $140 per month. It seems it contains some very simple things, like grape seed extract, bilberry, etc. Does anyone have any experience with this? Do you know if I have to take this or if there is anything comparable? I assume there is a reason I can't just take Reservatrol (which I already take.)
I should point out that obviously the Fish Oil and magnesium are not bringing my inflammation down. After reading Marnie's post about inflammation I am really worried about this.
13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG. Posts: 4480 | From Northeastern Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2005
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Tracy9
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13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG. Posts: 4480 | From Northeastern Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2005
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Hoosiers51
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Do you have any supplements you buy monthly that you can just stop taking/buying?
Not sure if you buy the oil and mag monthly, etc.
That is really expensive. I had to say no to a Mitochondria supplement that was actually MORE than that per month.
I basically will only buy the pricey suppp's if I feel they work, but a lot of times it just comes down to cost and some things are just not do-able.
And to save money for the expensive ones that work, you'll never see me continuing to take something that doesn't seem to work. That is the system I've developed.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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Tracy9
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I'm really just living off a huge supply of supplements I have stockpiled, LOL. I haven't bought anything except a $5 bottle of MSM. I'm hoping there might be some alternatives, but if the general opinion is that this is hugely important and the best there is, I guess I'll let something slide! (We have gone without car insurance for 3 months and I'm freaking out over that!!!)
13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG. Posts: 4480 | From Northeastern Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2005
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merrygirl
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yeah my llmd wants me on mitochondrial ressucitation pack which is $125 ( i think or its 150) it does help but who can afford that!
I bet someone will come along with a suggestion.
have you looked on ebay? I found an expensive supplement on there for alot less before.
good luck
Posts: 3905 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
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Hoosiers51
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Me too merry....that's the supp I was talking about!
But they told me if I don't feel better on it within the first month, to stop buying it.
I still haven't bought it. It has a lot of arginine, so I was worried about what that would do to viruses. I'd still like to try it eventually when I feel I can afford it.
At $150 though, it better be helping me a LOT. Though I would pay $150 a month if something was making me feel great.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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MariaA
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offtopic: hoos, I think Teitelbaum's Fatigued book talks about arginine and viruses. I also think herpes family viruses and arginine might be an issue of the ratio between arginine and lysine rather than just high levels of arginine- research this further, I could be totally wrong about this.
Tracy- I wish I could help somehow!!!!
If I were in your place, I'd just get some of the component herbs in a cheaper supplement from Vitacost- I don't know if the 'isotonic' aspect is really anything special or if they're just making claims to make their product stand out. Bilberry and other antioxidants should be available cheaper.
What about pharmaceuticals for inflammation since you have Medicare- I asked my first LLMD about what to do if I have high CRP (it turned out not to be) and I think he mentioned statin drugs. I know they're dangerous in some other ways and you're WAY more complicated than I am since you have other issues besides Lyme. Do you have a way to talk to one of your LLMD's about an insurance-covered alternative like that?
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
They both look like good supplements. If I were to chose which one I thought might be closest to the Isotonix OPC-3 product I would chose the first one (Source Naturals Pycnogenol Supreme). Notice that the whole bottle should last one month for about $24.
I understand how hard it is to make decisions like this. You want to do what's best and follow your doctor's advice but you just don't have the money to buy what you need.
Posts: 5237 | From here | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
I have a couple of concerns about the company and product you are referring to. On the link you provided in the upper left corner is a phrase -- get paid to shop (or something similar).
Basically the doc can earn 1/2% as a referral fee and then you can get 2% of the price back if you sign up for the program. Personally I don't have a problem with docs selling supplements, but I don't like it when they get referral fees for doing that. I think that can make them biased in regards to a particular product or company.
As for the product -- I am not really convinced that it is that unique. Hubby takes several of the ingredients listed at much higher doses than in the product but at lower cost.
The product lists lots of scientific studies on the ingredients, but I don't see any proof that the actual product itself was tested to prove that the dosing is adequate to achieve your goal of lower inflammation.
Hubby takes 150 mg daily of pycnogenol (pine bark extract) -- Vitamin Shoppe brand. A 90 capsule bottle of 50 mg capsules is $41.99 which lasts one month. You can get a 7% rebate if you order thru ExtraBux.com
Hubby takes bilberry extract as a tincture -- a 4 ounce bottle of tincture is $10.95. One bottle lasts for at least a month -- depending on dose.
As for the grape seed extract and red wine extract -- I think the resveratrol and/or Japanese knotweed would be comparable.
Hubby's doc just had his CRP tested -- it was 0.2 He has never had an elevated sed rate or CRP since he has been sick. But his C4a was over 11,000 the one time it was tested. It is hard to believe that people with the same diseases can have such differences in bloodwork numbers.
Tracy, if I was you I would at least try pycnogenol first and then retest before spending the big bucks for the supplement listed.
I would probably also add in some turmeric. You can buy it by the ounce or pound at health food stores and either put it in capsules or stir into a glass of warm water or mix with something like applesauce.
As for the sed rate -- I think Wobenzyme or Vitalzym could help with that. Not sure if you can take lumbrokinase with your blood thinners or not.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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MariaA
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posted
If you're able to spend any money on supplements at all, totally agree with the last two posts.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
Curcumin is the active anti-inflammatory agent found in the spice turmeric. It has been shown to inhibit the activity of the 5-lipoxygenase and cyclooxygenase enzymes, blocking the synthesis of pro-inflammatory eicosanoids (PG-2, LTB-4).
A large double-blind study demonstrated that curcumin was as effective as a powerful anti-inflammatory drug (phenylbutazone) in reducing pain, swelling and stiffness in rheumatoid arthritis patients. It has also been shown to be effective in the treatment of postsurgical inflammation.
Other studies indicate that curcumin can lower histamine levels and is a potent antioxidant. These factors may also contribute to its anti-inflammatory capabilities.
For best results, practitioners should consider using a 95-percent standardized extract of curcumin derived from turmeric. As a singular agent, the daily dosage to consider is 400-600mg, taken one to three times per day.
(Lower doses can be used as part of a combination formula containing other anti-inflammatory agents). Side effects are rare, but primarily include heartburn and esophageal reflux. As curcumin inhibits the cyclooxygenase enzyme system, it may reduce platelet aggregation and thus may potentiate the effects of anti-coagulant drugs.
To date, no bleeding disorders have been reported with curcumin supplementation, but its concurrent use with warfarin or coumadin should be considered a contraindication.2,8,10,11,12,13,14
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Boswellia -- In clinical studies, the gum resin of the boswellia tree (yielding 70 percent boswellic acids) has been shown to improve symptoms in patients with osteoarthritis, and rheumatoid arthritis.12,13 Research indicates that boswellic acids inhibit the 5-lipoxygenase enzyme in white blood cells.
As a singular agent, the usual dosage is 150mg, one to three times per day. (Again, lower doses are effective when combined with other natural anti-inflammatory agents.) Boswellia appears to have no important side-effects or drug-nutrient interactions of concern.15,16
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White Willow Bark Extract provides anti-inflammatory phenolic glycosides, such as salicin, which have been shown to be effective in the treatment of arthritis, back pain and other joint inflammatory conditions. These phenolic glycosides are known to inhibit cyclooxygenase, blocking the production of PG-2, and exert a mild analgesic effect.
Unlike ASA, naturally occurring salicin (salicylic acid) does not irreversibly inhibit platelet aggregation, reducing the potential for a bleeding disorder. White willow extract has been shown to be slower acting than ASA, but of longer duration in effectiveness.
The usual dosage is 20-40mg of salicin, one to three times per day. (Note that 100mg of white willow extract at a 15 percent standardized extract of salicin content yields 15mg of salicin per dosage. A lower dosage can be used as part of a combination formula containing other anti-inflammatory agents.)
Side-effects are rare, but primarily include nausea, headache and digestive upset. Contraindications may include conditions where ASA is contraindicated, including gout; diabetes; hemophilia; kidney disease; active peptic ulcer; glucose-6-phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency; and possibly asthma.
However, the salicin content in a single dosage of white willow extract is very low compared to the content of ASA (e.g., 15mg vs. 320mg ); thus, these conditions may not be absolute contraindications for the use of white willow bark extract.
It is important to realize that besides salicin, white willow extract contains other phenolic glycosides, which are also known to possess anti-inflammatory properties.8,17,18,19
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Ginger Root Extract contains oleo-resins that have shown clinical benefit in the management of various arthritic and muscle inflammation problems, including rheumatoid arthritis, osteoarthritis, and myalgias.
The active constituents in this regard are gingerols (oleo-resins), which inhibit the cyclooxygenase and lipoxygenase enzymes. The usual dosage is 500mg, one to three times daily, standardized to a five-percent gingerol content. (A lower dosage can be used as part of a combination formula containing other anti-inflammatory agents).
Side-effects are rare, but include heartburn and digestive upset. It should not be given to patients with gallstones. It may also induce a mild anticoagulant effect (by inhibiting cyclooxygenase enzyme in platelets), therefore it should not be taken concurrently with warfarin of coumadin.
However, there are no reports of bleeding disorders with ginger supplementation and no adverse drug - nutrient interactions have been reported in the scientific literature to date.2,8,14,20,21
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Bromelain contains anti-inflammatory enzymes that have the proven ability to suppress the inflammation and pain of rheumatoid arthritis and osteoarthritis, sports injuries, and other joint inflammatory conditions.
Bromelain has been shown to inhibit the cyclooxygenase enzyme, inhibiting the synthesis of PG-2. Bromelain also helps to break down fibrin (fibrinolytic), thereby minimizing local swelling.
The usual dosage is 400mg, one to three times per day (a lower dosage can be used as part of a combination anti-inflammatory formulation). Bromelain may inhibit platelet clotting and is a known for its fibrinolytic properties.
Therefore, it may potentiate the effects of anticoagulant drugs such as warfarin and coumadin, and should not be recommended in these cases.2,8,14,22,23,24
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Quercetin is a bioflavonoid compound that blocks the release of histamine and other anti-inflammatory enzymes at supplemented doses (minimum 100-1500mg per day). Although human studies with arthritic patients are lacking at this time, anecdotal evidence is strong for this application, as is experimental research investigation. There are no well-known side effects or drug-nutrient interactions for quercetin. 14,25,26,27
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Devil's Claw contains the anti-inflammatory agent harpogoside. Devil's claw has demonstrated efficacy in the management of low back pain and is used traditionally as an anti-inflammatory by numerous southern African tribes.
The usual dosage is 100-400mg, one to three times per day (a lower dosage can be used if part of a combination anti-inflammatory formula).
The only consistently reported side-effect is mild digestive upset on rare occasions. It is contraindicated in patients with active gastric ulcers (may increase gastric acid secretion) and in patients taking warfarin or coumadin (due to its anticoagulant effects).8,14,28,29
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As the saying goes - there's more than one way to skin a cat...
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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dmc
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I did OPC yrs ago. It did nothing for me and took it for 6 months.
Posts: 2675 | From ct, usa | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
tracy my CRP is at 36 and it is supposed to be 3... last time I checked... waiting for new BW... so mine is SCARY high
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
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dmc
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How to Treat Inflammation at its Source, Naturally
Lifestyle changes will go a long way toward reducing chronic inflammation in your body, so focus on making the following changes:
1.Focus on eating a healthy diet. This includes avoiding pro-inflammatory foods like trans fats, fried foods, sugar and grains, foods cooked at high temperatures and oxidized cholesterol (cholesterol that has gone rancid, such as that from overcooked, scrambled eggs).
2.Get plenty of animal-based omega-3 fats by taking a high-quality krill oil that is chock full of these beneficial omega-3s. My favorite in this area is krill oil.
3.Optimize your insulin levels. If your fasting insulin level is not lower than three consider limiting or eliminating your intake of grains and sugars until you optimize your insulin level.
4.Exercise regularly. Exercise is a great way to lower inflammation without any of the side effects associated with medications.
5.Quit smoking. Smoking hardens your arteries and increases inflammation. But research shows you can reverse all the damaging effects to your arteries within 10 years of quitting. However, be sure you get your diet under control first so you don't fall into the trap of trading cigarettes for unhealthy junk foods.
6.Make sure your waist size is normal. If you're a woman with a waist measurement of over 35 inches or a man with a waist of over 40 inches, you probably have high inflammation and should take steps to lose weight.
7.Have healthy outlets for stress and other negative emotions. High levels of stress hormones can lead to the release of excess inflammatory chemicals, so be sure you use tools to help deal with your current stress and resolve past emotional challenges as well. Meditation, prayer and my personal favorite the Meridian Tapping Technique (MTT) are all useful stress management techniques to try out.
8.Optimize your vitamin D levels. Most people are not aware that vitamin D can have a profoundly dramatic impact on your health.
Your best source of vitamin D is through your skin being exposed to the sun or alternatively using a safe tanning bed. In the wintertime, however, you may need to take an oral supplement. Just make sure you're taking the right form of vitamin D in the appropriate amounts to reap the benefits, and remember to get your vitamin D levels tested regularly.
Useful Herbs and Supplements to Fight Inflammation
Finally, although they are not a long-term solution, the herbs that follow are useful for treating the symptoms of inflammation and relieving pain while you work at implementing the lifestyle changes above:
*Boswellia: Also known as boswellin or "Indian frankincense," this herb contains specific active anti-inflammatory ingredients, referred to as boswellic acids that animal studies have shown significantly reduce inflammation. This is one of my personal favorites as I have seen it work well with rheumatoid arthritis patients
*Bromelain: This enzyme, found in pineapples, is a natural anti-inflammatory. It can be taken in supplement form, but eating fresh pineapple may also be helpful.
*Ginger: This herb is anti-inflammatory and offers pain relief and stomach-settling properties. Fresh ginger works well steeped in boiling water as a tea or grated into vegetable juice. Powder capsules are also available, but I recommend using the fresh root.
*Resveratrol: Resveratrol is a potent antioxidant found in certain fruits, vegetables and cocoa that is emerging as a modern-day fountain of youth. It works by preventing your body from creating sphingosine kinase and phospholipase D -- two molecules known to trigger inflammation. The science surrounding this compound is so compelling that it has become one of my all-time favorite antioxidants, and I believe one that shows real promise of health benefits.
*Evening Primrose, Black Currant and Borage Oils: These contain the essential fatty acid gamma linolenic acid (GLA), which is useful for treating arthritic pain. It is reasonable for many to take these as a supplement, particularly if you struggle with dry skin in the winter, as this is a strong indicator that you are deficient in these fats.
*Turmeric, Tulsi and Rosemary: The transcription protein Nuclear Factor-kappa Beta (NfKB) is a major inducer of inflammation, and these three herbs are capable of modulating NfKB.
Posts: 2675 | From ct, usa | Registered: Jan 2004
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merrygirl
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my crp is ridiculously high I forget the numbers. But been like that for 3 years. Not dead yet.
On statins and its no9t going down.
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posted
OPC-3 is a complete rip-off and I don't suggest anyone buy it. If any doctor says you have to take that specific brand, either he is getting a kickback, or has no idea what he is talking about.
It is basically a small amount of grapeseed (25mg) + pycnogenol (25mg) + bioflavanoids (25mg) + red wine (25mg).
Go to iHerb, look up Healthy origins pycnogenol. You can get 100mg, 60 caps, for around $30.
Swanson's pycnogenol (house brand) is around the same price.
You can get Meganatural grapeseed (house brand) from Swanson's, really cheaply -- last time I checked, 100mg, 120 caps was about $9. And when they have the 'buy 1, get 1 free' sale, it's even a better deal. They have various Meganaturals (it's a decent grapeseed brand) so just pick whatever dosage you want.
So you can take 100mg pycnogenol + 100 grapeseed daily, for about $18/month or so. Even if you take 200mg pycnogenol + 200mg grapeseed, it'd be less than $35/month.
The tiny dose of citrus bioflavanoids + red wine in OPC-3 can be gotten if you simply eat some fruits daily. Or take Ester c, which has C + citrus bioflavanoids already. Costco sells like a giant jug of the stuff at a reasonable price. And vitamin C (at 1 gram dose/daily) has been shown to reduce c-reactive protein in some people too.
Another consideration for c-reactive protein reduction is krill oil. I wouldn't replace your fish oil with it, but you can consider a small dose along with the fish oil you currently take. By the way, what dose of fish oil + mag are you taking?
Posts: 584 | From NY | Registered: Feb 2009
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Tracy9
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Oh I just KNEW Carol was going to bag me on that Magnesium!!!!
But hey, I found out something I am taking has Magnesium in it....this adrenal supplement has 50 mg of Magesium Citrate; and another one has 25 mg of Magnesium Aspertate. I'm sure that's not enough, right???
Anyway OMG THANK YOU SO MUCH everyone for the help!! I will definitely not be buying this, especially hearing it did not help DMC.
I am already taking Reservatrol and will get what Sammy suggested, thanks so much for doing that research Sammy! And look into the other things as well. This is awesome and so helpful. (Promise to get some Magnesium tomorrow Carol. Can't get away with anything around here.)
I take two fish oil capsules a day, I can't really say how much it is because I mix up bottles but the ones I am taking now are a berry mix too....so I am probably getting some of the stuff I should anyway.
I already take Istonix Vitamin D from the same company but I'm not buying it again when this runs out. My vitamin D was only 7 so I bought four bottles. They were about $40 a bottle I think.
This has been incredibly helpful!!!! You guys are the best!
13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG. Posts: 4480 | From Northeastern Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2005
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MariaA
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I'd suggest a higher dose of fish oil. Also, it and a number of other things are cheap at Costco (I know you don't have one nearby but check their website for shipping possibilities). I think they'll ship if you can figure out someone with a membership who'll help you do the purchase. I got a mega-sized tub of fish oil caps for $14 the other day, I mean like a quart-sized bottle full of good-dosage fish oil gel caps.
To clarify, you don't need a membership at Costco to shop their pharmacy/prescriptions, but you WOULD need a membership to buy supplements from the regular store floor.
Another CRP thing would be to reduce sugar or too many carbs, and other inflammatory stuff like deep-fried foods.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
posted
I would suggest going with OTC D3 instead of prescription D. The prescription version is tablet, D2, in megadoses, taken at longer intervals between dosing.
It will increase your D levels, but it's not something best to take longterm. A person would be better off just taking OTC D3 to maintain their D levels.
You can get D3 at iHerb, VitaCost, etc. at dirt cheap prices. 5000IU, 120 gels of Now D3 is around $8 or so. You can take one every other day, and it'd run around $1/month. Dose D3 by serum levels.
And you probably should be taking at least a gram, probably closer to 2 grams, of Omega 3s, until your c-reactive protein goes down. You can calculate that by the amount of Omega 3s per gel, not total fish oil. I'd suggest go for a higher potency, so you don't have to take tons of pills.
Posts: 584 | From NY | Registered: Feb 2009
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MariaA
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oops, sorry- I thought the prescription one was D3. Yeah, I agree on not using D2.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
dmc
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My new throid md had me do loading dose of 50,000 iu of D3 then continuing the 2500-3000 a day (depending if outside in sun).
Posts: 2675 | From ct, usa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Keebler
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- in addition to fish oil suggested by Maria,
Turmeric (or the stronger extract, Curcumin) may be a good alternative. It's very helpful to decrease inflammation.
As Carol suggests, so is magnesium. Usually, for those deficient, 75 mg. of magnesium is not nearly enough. You may need to go to 1,000 - 2,000 mg. - to bowel tolerance and then back down. Calcium also then needs to be in proportion.
And Vitamin D3 is required so that magnesium can work in the body.
WHAT IT DOES: Turmeric root is bitter in taste and warming in action. It strongly reduces inflammation and mucus in all parts of the body, protects the liver, lungs and intestines . . . .
SAFETY ISSUES: Due to mucin-reducing effects, do not use the concentrated extract (curcumin) or oil in high doses, especially if you have bile duct obstruction, gall stones, or stomach ulcers. Use turmeric as a spice freely.
- full article at link above. From ``The One Earth Herbal Sourcebook'' (Tilltoson, et.al.)
posted
Turmeric may be hard for some people to absorb. The expensive brands add bioperine to improve absorption -- bioperine is a patented brand of black pepper extract. 5 mg of black pepper is the normal dose for each dose of turmeric -- up to 3 times per day I think. This would be a very very small amount of black pepper.
Bea Seibert
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