Topic: Buhner - those who are on it or tried it...
Marz
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3446
posted
Has anyone on Buhner found this to be true? I know there's been a long thread on Buhner and it seems to work for so many.
my LLMD is convinced its going to be the answer for me. She's not concerned about addressing bart for the reasons he lists below.
I've quit the cat's claw for the last 3 days because I would wake up between 4:00 and 6:00am with pounding heart and much anxiety. My dreams were so vivid that I'd wake exhausted.This has stopped since I quit it.
I will start it again after the weekend and see if it happens again. If it's just a herx, I'm willing to tough it out.
From an answer to a question someone asked on Planet Thrive about herbs and whether they kill cyst form:
Cyst form with Stephen Harrod Buhner, master herbalist
1. Support collagen structures so that damage to the body systems ceases;
2. Enhance immune function so that the body can deal with the organism itself;
3. Shut down the inflammatory pathways the spirochetes initiate, especially in the CNS;
4. Treat symptoms;
5. And only then, try and kill the spirochete
I find that if the first 4 are dealt with, people feel normal and the spirochetes make little headway in the body, as long as immune health is kept high, so that whether or not someone is infected becomes much less of an issue. I do think that some of the herbs are good for killing them in any form, however the Lyme spirochetes dislike aggressive approaches and have a tendency to adapt, so that is why I tend to leave them alone and to just stop them from having an impact. They are more peaceful that way
Posts: 1297 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2002
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lpkayak
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posted
i can't really follow all you are saying but my llmd thinks it will help me too
i was taking abx and feeling better but as soon as i stopped i felt bad and sx came back
i am doing really well for about 8 months now on SOME of his herbs
i cant take cats claw cuz i'm on reflux med...but i take sarsa, red root, stephania, and one more i can't remember in a tea i make from the cut herbs
my lllmd says what i take gets Bb and bart
i really think it gets bart cuz my worst sx is lots of lumps and the tea makes them go away
it would be nice if i could stop the herbs in 12 months like he says but even if i have to take them forever i am ok with that
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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nefferdun
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Member # 20157
posted
I am taking andrographis and resveratrol along with the abx. The first time I took andrographis I had a herx reaction which I mistook for a side effect or allergy. Now I have no symptoms from it or the abx. I am just getting better. You should also take something to help with bio film.
Personally I believe bart is so tough you need abx to get rid of it. When I tried using only herbs, I slowly slid backwards. So I would at least pusle abx, whatever you can tolerate.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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canefan17
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No fillers, binders, sugars, etc
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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canefan17
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posted
Ca I take freeze dried garlic while on buhner's protocol?
Or even go after parasites while on buhners?
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Andrographis has some effect on parasites. That's one reason why some have harsh reactions to it.
I've done very well with some of the supplements (the ones I can afford) but I've not done the full protocol, in and of itself.
I have found andrographis and cat's claw to be the very best for me. However, not everyone has the same experience. But andrographis has saved my life. It has helped calm seizure activity over the past 14 months. I recently went off for two months and got much worse, though. Back on, now, I'm less likely to go flying across the room from hammering on the deck repair project at my apt. bldg.
But, for one poster here, seizures were aggravated. Just as with Rx (where seizure drugs increased seizures for me), supplements also have individual reactions. Starting slow, avoiding all non-essential over the counter products, etc. is important.
Add Garlic? Well, you can take garlic along with some of the supplements on Buhner's protocol but it would not then be the protocol. Many people (and some LLMDs) incorporate supplements from one "protocol" for an individual's treatment plan.
It just can't then be called this or that protocol.
In general, Buhner is not fond of garlic or allicin and suggests avoiding it. It's not that it's good or bad, or hot or cold (as herbs are categorized - with hot herbs being stimulating and cold herbs somewhat sedating) . . . but that he just has found other things that he thinks work better.
The second link below has garlic/allicin in a pivotal role. Again, it's just that researcher's preference. Allicin works well for many but not at all for everyone. We need choices. Sometime, rotation is good.
canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
Ya, I have both of those books.
: )
I like Buhner's... he also changed his core protocl.
It's diff from what he put in the book.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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pamoisondelune
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Member # 11846
posted
Cane, THanks for the link!! If they grow knotweed here in America, i'll buy it.
I'm no expert and have no deep basis for saying this, but i don't see why you can't do garlic and parasites while on Buhner's, unless you're highly sensitive and get lots of reactions.
----Polly Polygonum ----or Nilufar Knotweed
Posts: 1226 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
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Rivendell
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Member # 19922
posted
Canefan17 or anyone,
How did Buhner change his core protocol? What is he recommending now?
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Garlic just will not go with the protocol and it still be the protocol. However, there are other protocols that focus on garlic.
With herbs, some can be combined, some can't. Some do the same job as others and can overlap or just be redundant.
As a food, garlic is fine. As a supplement, it's just not part of this protocol but questions can be submitted to the web site.
I thought I had the quote as to why he did not use it but I must not have saved that to my computer and I can't find it with a search of that site. There is one question about garlic and thyme in the diet and that was answered as it being fine but not addressed regarding supplement strength.
===================
To better understand herbal combinations and some of the factors involved in selection:
Above links all from "The One Earth Herbal Sourcebook" (Tillotson, et.al) -- this book does not detail lyme supplements, other than the Sarsaparilla page that mentions historical use for spirochetal infections.
========================
for updates, etc, the links help. Still, reading the book is very important for anyone who is interested in taking any of the supplements. There is a wealth of information in the book.
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- I found the link about why Buhner does not recommend garlic supplements.
I may disagree on the point he makes, as I think Zhang's research is very good and I've read a lot of good research about garlic and allicin. Zhang's book does discuss the molecular weight of allicin as being adequate to cross the blood brain barrier.
However, Buhner has his reasons and he has studied a different group that he holds in high regard. Garlic is not part of that group and with the way it's designed, it's not needed. Other supplements cover the bases.
There are thousands of herbs on the earth. In the western world, we seem to get stuck on a few. There are many ways to achieve success. Many combinations - and each one requires tremendous thought in how they all go together.
In my own experience, I do worlds better with andrographis than I ever did with garlic/allicin (mostly as andrographis does not irritate tinnitus for me as garlic does, although both seem equal in other ways).
Garlic for Lyme? - with Stephen Harrod Buhner, master herbalist
I have written a lot about garlic over the past 20 years, especially in my book Herbal Antibiotics. However, for Lyme I do not think it a primary herb for treatment.
It can be a useful adjunct in that regular garlic in the diet does help raise immune function. But as a direct antibacterial for Lyme I think it useless. The primary reason is that Lyme is exceptionally systemic and goes deep within a number of tissues. Therefore any herb to be used as an antibacterial must be able to penetrate to these difficult to reach areas. Garlic, in my experience, does not.
The primary herbs that can be of potential benefit must possess the capacity to go systemic, like malarial herbs, or to cross the blood/brain barrier, like Polygonum or Andrographis.
A lot of people have been using garlic for Lyme for at least a decade. Reports from users do not indicate it to be a primary herb for the eradication of the disease. Too many of them show no or only minor relief from its use.
So, I like it as a diet adjunct for stimulating immune function and health, not as an antibacterial in this condition.
posted on October 30, 2006 | -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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littlebit27
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Member # 24477
posted
I've just started it-using cat's claw only right now and that's cause it's the only one they sell locally here. Will start the others once the come-although I may leave out andrographis since he says it's not as important anymore and I really don't want a rash that takes a month to disappear lol.
Just got the book and started reading it so we shall see.
So there have been no "changes" to the protocol as you can see, its all the same herbs you would have been taking anyway.
The one thing that is different from the book, but is unrelated to the core protocol, is that he now prefers cryptolepsis over artemisinin for babesia.
Posts: 195 | From Manchester, CT | Registered: Jun 2008
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Adding to FunkOdyssey's post, here's the link to the source, the original comment that started the buzz:
. . . 1) In your book on page 78 you state that ``Andrographis is perhaps the best primary herb to use in the treatment of lyme disease.''
However, on page 74 in your update you say that ``the single most important herb is Japanese Knotweed, secondarily Cat's Claw ... Andrgraphis is problematic ... may produce side effects.''
If one is able to tolerate it, do you still recommend Andrographis or are t he potential risks greater than the potential benefits? . . . . ----------------
Buhner replies:
"I think andrographis is fine if you do tolerate it.
Over time I have come to feel that knotweed followed by cat's claw are the two best primary herbs followed by eleuthero followed by andrographis then stephania.
(In the last book updates I did not notice that andrographis statement.)
If you tolerate it (that is, no allergic reaction) there is no reason not to be on the herb long term.
If you are feeling better, keep at it. If you experience digestive upset, take them with food, otherwise it doesn't matter.
Yes, andrographis helps break the encysted forms. The red root should be taken as a tincture, not a pill. The most important for the collagen protocol are glucosamine, pregnenolone, biosil."
- end quote.
posted on December 11, 2009 -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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canefan17
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Member # 22149
posted
Rivendell,
Sorry... I just saw your question.
Glad they posted the answer for you
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- canefan17 just posted this at another thread:
Buhner works directly with them and recommends them (even more-so than source-naturals)
Only reason Buhner recommends source naturals is because when he wrote his book they were the only company using the whole plant (japanese knotweed)
Now for the exciting news...
They have a Buhner Core Protocol Product (360 capsules for $50) that combines japanese knotweed, Andrographis, cats claw, sarsaparilla(detox/lymph), and dandelion.
The guy on the phone takes it and was telling me a lot of people use it in conjunction with abx's.
Just giving you Buhner-Users a headsup. This sounds much easier to manage/take/find and is much cheaper.
(canefan17) -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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