Topic: Townsend Letter July 2010: Effectiveness of Samento and Banderol Herbal Extracts....
Dekrator48
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18239
posted
Hi everyone,
This link was posted on a FM/CFS board that I frequent:
It is the Townsend Letter dated July 2010, titled
"In Vitro Effectiveness of Samento and Banderol Herbal Extracts on the Different Morphological Forms of Borrelia Burgdorferi" by Ak****a Datar, Navroop Kaur, Seema Patel, David F. Luecke, and Eva Sapi, PhD Lyme Disease Research Group University of New Haven
-------------------- The fibromyalgia I've had for 32 years was an undiagnosed Lyme symptom.
"For I know the plans I have for you", declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future". -Jeremiah 29:11 Posts: 6076 | From Pennsylvania, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Hoosiers51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15759
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Thank you for posting. And all I have to say is, WOW.
I am a big fan of the Nutramedix products I have tried so far (NO affiliation at all)and have been planning on adding more of them. Only on 2 now.
I greatly respect E.S. and the others that have the dedication to research this. It is nice to see real science behind this. It correlates with how I feel this stuff (the antibiotics vs. the herbals) are working in my body.
The day is coming when all Lymies will be better.....thanks to a combo of nature and scientific process, not a combo of pharmaceuticals and frustration (though I believe right now pharmaceuticals have a higher cure rate until we find out what else works). This kind of stuff gives me hope.
Posts: 4590 | From Midwest | Registered: Jun 2008
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WildCondor
Unregistered
posted
It is so nice to have alternatives to antibiotics too! Very encouraging!
The best LLMD's will use a combination of both to get the patient well.
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posted
My LLND helped develop the Cowden herbs and claims she has cured quite a few treatment failures with them.
Some of the biggest name LLMDs are successfully using it for treatment failures or complimentary therapy (such as Dr. RH in NY).
Everything from that link is actually consistent with what my LLND told me. She has studied the herbs in vitro under dark field as well.
They took patients with spirochetemia and analyzed their blood every couple weeks. It may have not been the B31 strain (since it is apparently hard to find in the blood), but the herbs look to be effective against B31 as well. According to her and Dr. Cowden people with "Lyme" aren't all infected with the same borrelia here in the U.S. Maybe that's just one reason why tests fail?
Why not use a genus specific primer for PCR detection of Borrelia spp? Whether it's Lyme, TBRF, or some other borrelia, I would think there would be more positive PCRs when we test for more than just B31.
I think testing for subspecies is just pointless as the primary PCR test. Perhaps I am missing something.
-------------------- Sick since 10/2001. Tested CDC positive for Lyme 10/2008 through Quest and Igenex. Started treatment 1/2009 with LLMD. Lyme, Erichilosis, Chlamydophila Pneumoniae, Q Fever, Strep Syndrome and probably a few others I am forgetting. Posts: 451 | From Virginia | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
Yes, but remember: These LLMD's use the herbs IN ADDITION to antibiotics. The Townsend Letter often has articles, studies that are supported by the companies that make and sell these herbs, so the research is certainly biased.
If Samento and Banderol were really working my LLMD and many others would not be favoring antibiotics first. Plus, they only used Doxy in the study and did not combine with a cyst buster or any other antibiotic. Of course BB would change form and go dormant. Flawed study.
Misleading and dangerous for newbies here.
Posts: 770 | From USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:If Samento and Banderol were really working my LLMD and many others would not be favoring antibiotics first. Plus, they only used Doxy in the study and did not combine with a cyst buster or any other antibiotic. Of course BB would change form and go dormant. Flawed study.
I don't think so. There isn't much funding to for studies that you and your doctors would like to see. Dr. RH uses it because he knows it just works. I also think they would scare large amount of patients if they started giving them herbal tinctures instead of allopathic antibiotics as a first-line treatment. My LLMD claimed he honestly didn't know what method was best (but he uses both).
Perhaps it would have been interesting to compare the herbs to abx combos. However, I don't think the goal of the study was to prove whether abx or herbs work better. It just illustrates that herbs are effective.
There are people who get better on natural protocols. I know someone who only got better on a natural protocol.
I will be doing IV therapy soon along with herbal antibiotics. I am on both sides. However, after Cipro side effects, I have to admit, I am a little scared of antibiotics.
Here is what Cowden has to say, and he speaks of his relationship with Dr. RH as well.
I would like to know who funded that study if anyone knows.
Posts: 967 | From A deserted island without internet access | Registered: Sep 2009
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posted
My question is: why isn't this study published in a peer-reviewed journal? That's what really gives me pause.
Posts: 195 | From Manchester, CT | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
"Nobody supported this study other than University of New Haven. Very bests
Eva Sapi Ph.D."
Posts: 967 | From A deserted island without internet access | Registered: Sep 2009
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tick battler
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 21113
posted
Since switching this year to the Nutramedix and other herbal products after almost 2 years of abx, my young children are making faster improvements, particularly one 6 year old son who didn't improve much at all the entire second year of abx.
His behavior and attention issues are much, much better. He no longer tells me he's going to throw me out the window and instead often tells me he loves me.
tickbattler
Posts: 1763 | From Malvern, PA | Registered: Jul 2009
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My concern here is that alot of newbies come to Lymenet looking for answers and there are many patients on here who direct them to herbs and alternatives BEFORE trying antibiotics. Not smart IMHO. The longer you delay treatment, the sicker you will be.
I should know, I resisted antibiotics offered by my LLMD in the initial stages of Lyme and did alternatives (ie removing fillings, detox, herbs of all kinds) and was left with an empty wallet and much sicker.
After 3 yrs of antibiotics I am SO MUCH BETTER. In fact, I just got back from the gym.
I am not saying herbs do not work, I am saying Lyme patients need antibiotics and then should move onto herbs once the bacterial load is down. My two cents.
Posts: 770 | From USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
You have to be kidding. Pear-reviewed journal. Half if not more of the people who control the publications do not believe lyme disease exists.
In the movie Under My Skin, it was so difficult to get studies published. If I remember correctly one of the doctors worked so hard to get his studies published that proved that lyme disease existed after antibiotic therapy. It was extreamly difficult.
Remember that the big journals are controlled by much of main stream medicine, of which as a health care professional myself, I belong.
In regards to Cowden, I have now been on it for 6 months. This is following 5 years of antibiotic therapy. 3 pic-lines and a total of 16 antibiotics and antimalarials without a break. The most progress I have made is this last 5 months. I remain on the antibiotics I was on and have only added Cowden. The jury is still out as it is too early to tell but so far this is the best I have felt in 6 years!
I would have to say that this protocol must have some type of effect on these bacteria, if only enhancing the effects of antibiotics.
I would recommend that people give it a try. As it stands this disease is so complex that you might as well through the kitchen sink at it.
tick battler
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 21113
posted
Katrina,
Thanks for the encouraging report...that is wonderful. Do you mind sharing which Cowden products you are on...are you following the condensed Cowden or are you using only some of the herbs?
The homeopathic nurse that we are now seeing has had much success with only Samento, Cumanda and grapefruit seed extract. We have added a few other herbs, but she claims that those three products alone can hit bart, babs, lyme, mycoplasma and ehrlichia.
Thanks, tickbattler
Posts: 1763 | From Malvern, PA | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
I couldn't have said it better than Katrina. I was about to write what she wrote.
The publication could make it into alternative medical journals, but I don't see it ever making it into mainstream medical journals. Herbs to treat Lyme? Better than doxycycline? That's against our beliefs, and we never heard of these herbs either. Poof! Denied.
I honestly think the researchers just want to disseminate their findings to the public as quick as possible instead of worrying about if/when it will be published.
If the researchers were being honest with me, it doesn't look like they have any conflicts of interest.
Posts: 967 | From A deserted island without internet access | Registered: Sep 2009
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posted
I am on the condensed cowden protocol. Currently, I am taking Banderol 30 drops 2 times a day and Samento 30 drops 2 times a day. I also take the detoxing strategies that go along with that.
I also have bought a infrared sauna and try to go into it every other night. (for 30 min).
Because I am doing so well, I am holding right now and not switching the protocol.
I have tried other herbals along the way but these seem to be much better.
I do know that everyone is different. My doctor is quite convinced that these are very effective for the majority of patients. He doesn't give them alone without antibiotics but tries to incorporate them into treatment with the hopes of weaning patients off of the antibiotics.
I'm just so pleased after this very, very long and I might say aggressive haul that this seems to be at least helping. So many other things have been useless.
posted
My problem with Cowden is that there is so darn much of it. And when he talks about homeopathic remedies and emotional toxins that prevent people from getting well.....he loses me.
It is certainly possible that herbs have chemical properties that can affect microbes, but can they replace antibiotics?
I want to get off antibiotics, have no more central lines, and prevent herxing from whatever treatment might be next. Or give up.
So, Buhner or Cowden, or give up?
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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quote:Originally posted by Katrina: You have to be kidding. Pear-reviewed journal. Half if not more of the people who control the publications do not believe lyme disease exists.
I didn't say it had to be the New England Journal of Medicine. There are all kinds of lower impact journals they could have published it in, which would give it a measure of credibility.
I do not want or expect to read anything remotely science related in the Townsend Letter of all places. That's like calling for gun control via an editorial in Guns & Ammo magazine.
Posts: 195 | From Manchester, CT | Registered: Jun 2008
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quote:Originally posted by lou: My problem with Cowden is that there is so darn much of it. And when he talks about homeopathic remedies and emotional toxins that prevent people from getting well.....he loses me.
I won't argue with you about homeopathy.
However, what is so hard to grasp about emotional toxins? Perhaps you don't like his choice of words. How about "emotions that suppress the immune system". Does that sound better than emotional toxins?
Stress, depression, the immune system, and cancer
EMV Reiche, SOV Nunes, HK Morimoto - The lancet oncology, 2004 - Elsevier
"Evidence mainly from animal models and human studies suggests that stress and depression result in an impairment of the immune response and might promote the initiation and progression of some types of cancer, mainly associated with a DNA tumour virus, retrovirus insertion near a cellular oncogene, and other viruses such as EBV. Through HPA activation, the mediators released during chronic stress suppress some non-specific and specific parts of the immune response, including NK-cell activity, phagocytosis, production of inflammatory cytokines (ie, interleukin 2, interferon, and TNF by Th1 cells), and cytotoxic T-cell activity, compromising the most important effectors of the immune response against tumours. Furthermore, other relevant biological processes affected by stress, such as the increases in DNA damage, accumulation of somatic mutations, alterations in DNA repair, and inhibition of apoptosis might be involved in the onset and outcome of some types of cancer. Future research in psychoneuroimmunology will be needed to learn what pathways and circuits are involved in the relation of stressors with the HPA and the immune systems with respect to cancer onset and progression. Our growing understanding of immunomodulation and the links between the CNS, and endocrine and immune systems might improve the chances for successful psychoneuroimmunoendocrine interventions."
Of course, little is known about the brain, and I don't think anyone really knows exactly why emotions take a toll on the immune system.
Posts: 967 | From A deserted island without internet access | Registered: Sep 2009
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posted
In my opinion, it is extreamily difficult to publish in medical journals that are well respected and read by main stream medicine. Like JAMA or some of the others. They simply don't believe it exists as was evident in the recent decision by the IDSA to keep their current guidelines in place.
In regards to cowden and the emotional component. Honestly, I had never heard him speak nor have I read any of his articles. I do know that it has definately helped me. But who knows why. It appears that these herbs do have some antimicrobial properties as some research has demonstrated.
The emotional realm of healing and medicine is just being tapped into. As a professional trained in western medicine, it is clear that we have been missing much of the boat. There is a whole component of the mind and body connection that is just coming to light though current research. Something that eastern medicine has believed and practiced for some time. Having been in medicine for 24 years now, I would say there is a much stronger relationship between the mind, body and immune system that anyone would have believed in years past.
More research is needed, however,
I will say that like the many others who have posted here I believe that you have to attack all of the coinfections and detox. at the same time in order to turn the corner. It has taken me 6 solid years and finally I have a quality of life. I hope this gives others hope. As back in 2007 I was in the hospital so sick I could not feed myself or walk. My husband thought I might not make it home to see my kids. Currently, I'm walking 2 miles a day and doing most things I enjoy. I would say I am consistently 70% of normal with even better days as well.
Hopefully, that will help those of you who suffer daily as I did. There is hope! Keep fighting and treat everything! Then try to slowly detox. Keep pushing yourself. At one point I couldn't walk to the Kitchen. Now I walk daily for exercise.
Amanda
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14107
posted
well, I'm glad to see someone look into the effectiveness of herbal protocols, especially given the high price of some of them.
Like all good studies, it poses more questions. Also, I respect E. S work, but there are a few key questions not answered in this article.
1. Was there an actual statistical difference between the controls and the herbs? All I have to go on is the graphs, and it doesn't look like there was that much of a difference (100 vs 150) between the two. IT still could be significant, I just wonder if they actually analyzed the data with statistics to come to their conclusions..IT seems strange that they would not do this, but also strange that if they did, I don't see it mentioned.
2. Obviously, there is a big difference between the effects in a petri dish, and what happens in a human body. Hopefully, this study is the first in several that will lead to testing herbs with actual lyme patients and noting whether herbs helped or not, as compared to herbs plus abx.
3. Comment about strain of lyme used is important. This is one of the many reasons testing is not reliable, because labs only use 3 or 4 strains, and what happens if you live in midwest, or west coast, and your strain responds differently?
Bottom line is that Dr. C protocol costs a lot of money. Money is precious, and so, its kind of a risk game isn't it? If I am going to spend over 1,000 dollars on herbs, then I want some idea of what chance that it helps me, and to what degree.
About 5% of any treatment helps people (placebo effect). That's why testimonials aren't a good judge. Also, unless MDs have divided theier patients into herbs+abx, vs abx, AND you have at least 300 people in each group, you can't draw much in the way of conclusions. I guess if you have 1200 to spare, then its fine... I know this study shows some good promise, but before I spend big bucks I want to see it done with people. Hopefully, that is the next step...
-------------------- "few things are harder to put up with than the annoyance of a good example" - Mark Twain Posts: 1008 | From US | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
katrina, Could you pm me? I'd like to know the dr. you are seeing - is he or she in Michigan?
I am taking Nutramedix products, homeopthics and vitamins and supplements, and think they are all working. I would like to ask you some questions and compare notes, if you don't mind.
Twinkle
Posts: 97 | From Great Lakes state | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
My main concern with the study is that the concentrations of herbals used is probably unrealistic. Even a 1/1000th dilution which was the lowest concentration used is still probably many orders of magnitude higher than what could be achieved with oral dosing in vivo.
Posts: 195 | From Manchester, CT | Registered: Jun 2008
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sparkle7
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Member # 10397
posted
Nutramedix is not the only place where Samento is known or used. It's a traditional medicine of Peru. There are 1000s of plants used for medicinal purposes by the native people there for 1000s of years...
On Google, I saw about 476 scholarly articles or studies about Uncaria tomentosa and Uncaria guianensis - commonly known as cat's claw or Samento which is what Nutramedix calls it.
It has many beneficial properties. Some are anti-inflammatory, anti-oxidant, etc.
Nutramedix also posts a bunch of articles that are from PubMed, etc. -
I didn't check into Banderol, yet. It is possible to get cat's claw from other sources & make it stronger than the Nutrimedix tinctures - if needed.
We have to consider that many of these herbs have been used for 1000s of years by native healers. We (in the North or West) are only just beginning to understand their uses...
I believe that herbs can be better in many ways than drugs. In my experience, they have definitely been just as strong as drugs in many cases.
I wouldn't discredit them just because there may be a conflict of interest with the Townsend Newsletter & Nutramedix. There are many other sources to cross-reference the properties of these herbs.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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