posted
This was originally a comment to another thread but I wanted to share the theory with more people, so I'm making a new post.
My LLMD learned about this after studying under another LLMD, and seemed to think my extreme reaction to changing my own antibiotics "proved" this theory. (He wasn't trying to prove it, wasn't using me as a guinea pig, it just kind of happened and we both sat back and went, "Huh, isn't that interesting...").
I accidentally told somoene changing antibiotics was to avoid resistance, and while that may also be true, I had just gotten confused, and that's not the reason I mentioned that changing antibiotics may be more beneficial than taking every antibiotic under the sun at the same time. . It's not so much about resistance as it is constantly changing the environment (created by changing antibiotics) helps kill the bugs better, because knocking out one thing at a time encourages the other bugs to come to the surface. And when they do that, you go after them.
Like, I had Lyme and started doxycycline, but after a couple of months, the bartonella "woke up" and my body realized it had this other problem and started trying to fight it...
You hear this often, too, with Babesia: Someone will start fighting Babesia, begin getting it under control, then find out they "now have to deal with bartonella," because with the Babesia being defeated, suddenly the bartonella cannot hide underneath the symptoms caused by the immune system's "former" primary threat. Does that make sense?
If you take Doxycycline in order to treat Lyme, other infections (if there) will come to the surface as the levels of the primary infection get lower, because all the other stuff cannot stay hidden; the immune system is no longer distracted by this "terrible infection" and can now recognize there are other things around, too!
For the sake of this example let's say maybe, Babesia, because the doxycycline doesn't treat it. So you switch meds after a few months of doxy and decide to go after the Babesia that popped up...Maybe you didn't even know you HAD Babesia, but with the Lyme levels lowered from the doxy, your immune system realizes, "oh no! there's Babesia here!" and tries to go after THAT instead of the Lyme.
Why does it do that? Because after the doxy, your levels of babesia parasite are now higher than your Lyme bacteria levels, and the immune system will prioritize which intruders need killing. You are now using the antibiotic AND your immune system to kill the bugs.
And then after a few months of that, you get your Babesia levels down as well and are about to switch meds again, only to realize that bartonella was hiding out somewhere (!!), and after getting the lyme levels down, and then getting the babesia levels down, the bartonella made the mistake of thinking it was safe to come out and show itself, but the immune system now recognizes THAT as your primary problem and tries to attack it... So you get on a bart-specific antibitoic for a few months.
And you keep on doing this, attacking one pathogen at a time, getting the levels down to where you can use your own immune system in addition to the antibiotic to help fight off whatever bug is dominant, and eventually you get the same--often better--results than someone whose doctor bombarded their system with nine antibiotics at a time.
Because the immune system cannot prioritize what to kill if it's trying to attack everything at the same time: it just gets overwhelmed and this can lead to treatment failure.Posts: 161 | From Southern United States | Registered: Sep 2009
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-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
Lymetoo, can you elaborate how it worked for you?
Burrascano cured himself by allowing a complete relapse before taking ceftin again. The third time was final. I don't really understand the entire reason this was done but It allowed the cysts to emerge and it also allowed the immune system to recognize and fight the disease.
On the other hand, there is the argument that not treating the co-infections is the reason many people do not recover. So does this approach fall into the not treating adequately and building resistance to treatment, or does it fall into treating and allowing the immune system to build up to keeping it knocked down on it's own?
In a way this is similar to the message of taking the best care of your body through detox and proper nutrition etc so that your body can heal itself. We believe the drug will cure us but actually it is the body with the drugs help. But in the case of lyme that seems like trying to fend off a bullet without a bullet proof vest.
I don't know!
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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BoxerMom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25251
posted
I think you are describing the ILADS standard of care. That's how my doc was trained, and she trained with all the big Lyme docs.
However, all the big ILADS docs use multiple antibiotics, because these pathogens respond better to higher blood levels of antibiotics. Plus, antibiotics act synergistically. Multiple antibiotics that treat the same pathogen have a better chance of significantly reducing these populations.
IV gets higher levels into the system, but even with IV, most patients are on multiple antibiotics. With orals, it is difficult to achieve the concentrations required to kill these pathogens, unless multiple antibiotics are used.
But your reasoning around changing up the antibiotics is right on. I treated for Lyme and Babs in year one, because that's what my symptoms showed were prevalent. I had high populations of Lyme and Babs. Just as you are describing, when my Babs level came down, I showed symptoms of Bart. In year two, I treated for Lyme and Bart.
In year one, my program was changed every four weeks, for the reasons you are describing. In year two, I moved to six weeks and then eight weeks between changes. I hated having these expensive appointments every four weeks, but I made significant progress!
Monotherapy has a terrible track record in Lyme, regardless of the frequency of rotation. Lyme changes forms, and the different forms respond to different antibiotics. If you treat with only one antibiotic, the Lyme just changes form. And it's difficult to achieve high blood levels with just one antibiotic.
We are all different. Different microbes in our mix, different detox issues. But, in general, full recovery requires multiple antibiotics, changed regularly, until the populations are low enough that the immune system can handle the rest.
posted
Well, I took mostly one drug at a time.. though we combined flagyl with biaxin and/or zith for example. And I took clindamycin/quinine together for babs. Took artemisinin and zith together for babs too.
So, in essence, it wasn't really what I would call monotherapy.
I never took 3, 4, 5 drugs at the same time though.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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BoxerMom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25251
posted
We're all different. You got there on two at a time. Some need 3, 4, or 5. My number seems to be three, but it took a few months to work up the courage to take that many antibiotics when I was starting treatment. But when I got there, life changed - I could function again!
I worry that the docs who prescribe monotherapy are misleading their patients. Then, when the patients don't get well, they feel like they have a million more things to figure out: co-infections, opportunistic infections, retroviruses, parasites, detox pathways, apnea, genetics, you-name-it...
Maybe they just needed more meds. I'm all for conservative treatment, but not when it leaves people sick and more confused.
TF
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 14183
posted
I got rid of lyme over five years ago. Here is how my doc did it:
First he treated lyme with 2 meds. Then, he treated lyme and bart. Then, he treated babs. He basically used the meds considered best by Burrascano for each disease.
He thought at the end that he would have to go back and treat the lyme again, but that proved unnecessary in my case.
I had had undiagnosed lyme for 10 years. I had had 2 years of monotherapy (just one antibiotic the entire time) for lyme before I saw him. That helped me, but couldn't cure me. Never got treated for the cyst form of lyme or the coinfections for those 2 years.
When I switched to my Burrascano doc, he finished the job in 1 year. Treated lyme, bart and babs all in that 1 year and I was done.
He used med combos, but he treated one disease at a time basically. Worked for me. I am still symptom-free--over 5 years now since I stopped all meds and supplements.
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