posted
I've read that one of the symptoms is increased effects of alcohol/possible worse hangover.
Would anyone mind sharing their experience with this?
Until recently, I thought my symptoms were related to celiac, or a food allergy of some sort. I never considered Lyme, after my GP tested me & said negative.
I've spent a lot of time outdoors & have had several tick bites. One of which made me tired & sickly feeling for a few days, but the doc at the time didn't mention anything about Lyme, nor did I know anything about it.
I can relate to many of the symptoms, although many can be for various things. A few symptoms that stand out in my mind:
-those relating to celiac & other GI issues (Diarrhea, etc) -night sweats -seeing something out of the corner of my eye -lightheadedness (feeling faint) -persistent sinus infections -mood swings (depression, confusion, etc)
& one that stands out
-increased effects of alcohol/possible worse hangover
How does this work?
There have been a number of instances where I can remember getting oddly drunk off a couple beers. On several occasions, I have blacked out completely. Just recently I had 3 beers with my dinner & couldn't drive myself home - I was seeing double & all rambly. I slept for 8 hours & woke up feeling drunk still.
I have noticed these same effects from hard liquor though. Perhaps that is because I'm expecting a stronger drink anyway..? not sure.
Anyway, pardon the long post. I appreciate any input you folks would care to share. This symptom has piqued my curiosity quite a bit....
Posts: 10 | From Louisville, KY | Registered: Oct 2010
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- By, after those 3 beers today . . . you've figured out that alcohol is totally off the menu as - if you do have lyme - it can make treating it so much harder. Lyme is a very toxic infection, indeed, so that really damages the liver's ability to metabolize alcohol.
Nerve cells are also damaged by lyme and alcohol causes further damage to the nervous system, the brain and all the body's cells and functions.
You need to find a Lyme Literate MD (LLMD) for a proper assessment. Most tests that most doctors do are not the correct tests and, even at the best, lyme is a clinical diagnosis, not from tests.
I see that you posted in "Seeking a doctor" Good. And Good luck. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Yes, this somewhat unique alcohol poisoning can be puzzling but I found it helps to explore WHY LLMDs stress the importance of avoiding alcohol. Then, it all makes so much more sense. It's all about the safety of our cells - our own safety and longevity.
Even if you don't have lyme, your body is screaming for help - and for no more alcohol as it's like rocket fuel to your body in the state that it's in right now.
Lyme hits the liver VERY hard. Even after treatment, it can take a very long time for the liver to heal enough to be able to handle even one drink.
Alcohol - any at all - entirely changes how both pharmaceutical medicines and herbal supplements work - it alters chemical properties to create something totally different - increasing risks while also diminishing effectiveness.
Several reasons to avoid alcohol until FULLY recovered -- one of which is that the liver is dealt a huge blow with lyme and damage can be severe. Add to that the need for medicine and that puts even more stress on the liver.
The lyme spirochete produces one of the most toxic substances known to man, similar to that of botulism. The liver is the primary organ to metabolize those toxins and get them out of the body. That is no easy job.
Many (if not all, as at least one LLMD thinks) lyme patients have excess porphryrins - from the liver being overwhelmed. The porphyrins, in excess, can kill cells of all types but especially nerve cells.
Alcohol uses the cytochrome P-450 liver detox pathway. Patients with the porphyria problems have that pathway damaged to varying degrees so the very best of self-care is vital.
As well, the brain cells don't do well with alcohol. Nor the lining of the stomach. Alcohol really does not mix well with any medicine.
And - remember that spirochetes don't recognize your best mates' birthdays, or holidays. Every day, we have this toxic infection to deal with and, every day matters. Liver damage from even one drink can happen and that damage might not be repairable.
====================
hese links may be a sort of "Scared Straight" approach, yet, each one helps us to understand WHY alcohol can be devastating to someone dealing with such a life-threatening and toxic infection.
I think it helps to know HOW & WHY. And, I really don't even get into how the liver works here. That's another long explanation but basically, the health of our liver will be one of the most important determining factors in the level of success we are able to achieve.
BIOCHEMISTRY OF LYME DISEASE: BORRELIA BURGDORFERI SPIROCHETE / CYST
by Prof. Robert W. Bradford and Henry W. Allen
EXCERPT:
. . . A discovery of great importance relating to a toxin produced by the causative agent of Lyme disease, Borrelia burgdorferi, has been linked to a similar toxin produced by the organism Clostridium botulinum (botulism). . . .
- Full article and great photos at link above.
=====================
This book is specific to lyme and other chronic stealth infections (such as Cpn).
A helpful search: "Hepatic Encephalopathy" and "Lyme Encephalopathy"
"Fatty Liver Disease" is also relevant and it's important to know that lyme greatly increases the risk of developing diabetes. The sugars in alcohol can blast that increased risk to a quick reality.
============================
To put the seriousness of lyme in perspective, Botulism is one of the most toxic infections known to man. -----------------
BIOCHEMISTRY OF LYME DISEASE: BORRELIA BURGDORFERI SPIROCHETE / CYST
by Prof. Robert W. Bradford and Henry W. Allen
EXCERPT:
. . . A discovery of great importance relating to a toxin produced by the causative agent of Lyme disease, Borrelia burgdorferi, has been linked to a similar toxin produced by the organism Clostridium botulinum (botulism). . . .
=======================
Alcohol also can severely damage (perhaps even to a point beyond repair) an already damaged endocrine system.
Remember that lyme really messes up the HPA axis (Hypothalamus/pituitary/adrenal network). The pituitary has much to do with weight/growth. Mess up any part of the endocrine system and other parts suffer, too.
See page 4 where Dr. Burrascano describes a bit about the considerations of the dysfunction with the HYPOTHALAMIC-PITUITARY AXIS -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- LLMD = Lyme Literate MD, one who is "ILADS-educated" so to speak. Many LLMDs also suggest nutritional support, along with treatment.
LL ND = Lyme Literate ND (naturopathic physician), also best if ILADS-educated. Some have completed the ILADS physician's training program. In some states, NDs can prescribe antibiotics. Most LL NDs do suggest antibiotics along with support supplements.
ILADS = International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society
TBD = tick borne disease. There are many tick-borne infections and lyme rarely travels alone.
STEALTH Infection = hidden, sneaky, potentially fatal but still devastating even if it takes a slow approach. Not easy to find with normal tests. Special labs often do a better job with testing.
Lyme is just one of many chronic stealth infections. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
- In the menu to the left of their home page, you can order DVDs of past ILADS seminars. You might also be able to borrow some from your local lyme support group.
This are invaluable to understanding how these infections work. And, none of this is taught in medical schools. None.
(27) REASONS WHY A SERONEGATIVE TEST RESULT MIGHT OCCUR
============================
TESTING
You should also be evaluated for coinfections. Not all tests are great in that regard, either, but a good LLMD can evaluate you and then guide you in testing. One of the top labs is:
In addition to the usual coinfections from ticks (such as babesia, bartonella, ehrlichia, RMSF, etc.), there are some other chronic stealth infections that an excellent LLMD should know about:
** Nutritional Supplements in Disseminated Lyme Disease **
J.J. Burrascano, Jr., MD (2008) - Four pages
==============================
It's very important to have this book as a reference tool for self-care and support measures. It answers so many questions in detail that is impossible here on the forum.
mojo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9309
posted
Just the fact you've been bitten, gotten sick from it and your symptoms - I'd say the chances of you NOT having Lyme are slim.
Like Keebler says a visit to a LLMD is in order. We have a section on "seeking a doctor" that can help you. Good Lyme Docs can be difficult to find.
Posts: 1761 | From USA | Registered: May 2006
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lymeboy
Unregistered
posted
Not sure if you're still drinking, but I would consider stopping cold turkey for a good while. You will have a hard time fighting lyme while drinking.
While I am not a Dr. or scientist, I would imagine that the increased effect of Alchohol is due to the strain that LB has already taken on your immune system, brain and liver. The immune system works overtime to handle the alchohol, as does the liver. I think if you are already loaded w/ toxins, your liver cannot process the alchohol as quick as it once did. Ditto for your immune system.
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- You mentioned CELIAC but I'm not clear if you have been diagnosed with that.
Many lyme patients tend to have it, and the reason for that is that infections can CAUSE celiac.
Either together or separately, LEAKY GUT is also a huge problem for most lyme patients. A gluten-free diet is usually suggested by most LLMD to help the gut - and the pain - and the brain. Gluten can affect the entire body.
Just a few links about gluten: --------------------------
You mentioned that many Lyme patients tend to have celiac dsease due to the infection. Is ths a fact that if tested for celiac many Lyme patients will test positive???
-------------------- Bullsye rash: 1994, tx w/ ABT, Symptomatic:1999 Hospitalization: 2004 Equivocol results (specialy lab) resulting in chronic use of ABT, herbs, etc ever since. Severity of symptoms continue to worsen intermittingly. Posts: 140 | From maryland | Registered: Oct 2006
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- If there has been enough damage and they are still on gluten. If they've been off gluten for a while, the tests may not show accurately.
The real test is that a gluten-free diet usually helps. When remission is achieved, some can eat some gluten -- but we have WAY too much in our modern world. Way too much.
For a gluten-free diet, though, even a TRACE can cause brain effects for up to six months. Really. They are finding that gluten can cause dementia.
Some lyme patients do have genetic celiac, though, that may have just been dormant. My GI tests were botched but another good doctor had me do a blood test for genes. Bingo.
Also see the Allergie-Immun site. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Wow - that's a ton of info. That'll take a second to process....
I haven't been diagnosed celiac. The "official" diagnosis I received was for "bacteria overgrowth". That was a couple years ago & at the end of all that stuff I ended up getting shuffled into hernia surgery - don't think it was necessary, long story... I followed a gluten-free diet for a bit, but eventually got back into eating gluten again.
Eventually I started getting sick again. My symptoms would come & go, etc. That led me back to the celiac.com. From there I happened to stumble across a thread about Lyme & I was honestly shocked. I had reasonable certainty that celiac wasn't the case all along, maybe something like gluten intolerance or something along those lines.
I always thought that the alcohol thing was related to bacteria & sugar, never thought about Lyme.
Can Lyme symptoms come & go?
I don't always react that way to alcohol. Between my SO & I, we've determined that I usua;;y have my time of the month as well - a few days every month that I just feel like **** - tired, GI symptoms, etc.
Posts: 10 | From Louisville, KY | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
Would this also help explain why I haven't been able to get an exercise routine together?
I try for a day or 2, but inevitably end up with a cold or something that fatigues me enough to stop it.
Yoga is usually OK for me, however. When I did have a solid Yoga routine, that's when I felt the best.
Posts: 10 | From Louisville, KY | Registered: Oct 2010
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
Maryland, people with celiac typically have a celiac gene. The gene needs a stress in order to cause active celiac disease. Lyme Disease can be a stressor that brings out the celiac.
Also, some of us become gluten intolerant with Lyme even when we don't have celiac disease.
There is an LLND who posts on celiac.com because her daughter has celiac disease. She said in a post last week that many of her celiac patients test positive for Lyme. So, people can have both, but don't necessarily.
Liz, yes, it is in the nature of Lyme that it waxes and wanes. Also, you don't want to do exercise that drains your adrenal glands, so that is why you feel good with yoga. Listen to your body and keep doing it!!!
Keebler is right about alcohol. Also, Dr. K says that 80% of Lyme patients have KPU (there is a thread or two here on KPU). Alcohol intolerance is a symptom of KPU as well. I am finished with Lyme treatment and have been off abx for two years. I can enjoy a drink or maybe two, but no more than that and not often. I did not touch alcohol while in treatment and for a year afterward.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- lizking,
You said: " . . . always thought that the alcohol thing was related to bacteria & sugar . . . . "
Well, that is just the beginning.
The "alcohol thing" has a lot to do with the liver, the nerve cells in the brain, the lining of the blood vessels, the lining of the stomach, entire endocrine system, eye health, ears, etc.
There is no one "thing" but a bushel basket full of reasons to avoid it. It's poison to us. Rocket fuel, lighter fluid, antifreeze, solvent . . . it's all about the same. We'd not drink that stuff, so we have to remember that, during such a complex illness that alcohol is a poison to our bodies. Poison kills cells.
Now, once well into a solid remission, a little bit now and then make be fine. Until then, there is nothing that tastes as good as feeling good feels.
As for the effects, there are other ways to find relaxation and fun. Let yourself feel the same relaxed or zany way that a drink did it the past. You can create a festive atmosphere.
As for flavor, there many other flavorful beverages to enjoy, even just lemon or lime juice in iced or hot water, with a dash of stevia and sprig of mint. -
[ 10-10-2010, 05:24 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Would it be of any value to get a test done before seeing an LLMD?
The reason I ask is I came across this thread & it kinda piqued my interest. The nearest LLMD is 3hours away, so I' trying to find ways to maximize what I can do before traveling
Posts: 10 | From Louisville, KY | Registered: Oct 2010
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
lizking, LLMD 3 hrs away from Louisville?????
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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posted
I concur with others here that it is worthwhile to start investigating what is causing your illness. If you have noticed (deer) tick bites then Lyme, and the associated co-infections that can come from the same tick, is a good possibility. Due to the damage the pathogen causes, all of these secondary chronic conditions (gluten issues etc... ) can arise but in many cases will recede when your system is no longer under the assault of the pathogen AND is able to repair the damage - the latter can often require time and various protocols.
Think of it in terms of war - Even after you bring the "war" to a close and defeat the enemy, you're left with a city in ruins and rubble. You need to build up the means to repair the infrastructure before any rebuilding can be done.
It is certainly time to find an ILADS-member M.D. who knows how to run the most up to date diagnostics to find the root of your illness.
I also concur that alcohol is really an impediment to Lyme (and really, most illness) recovery. I would highly suggest to reduce your intake as much as possible. Elimination would be best, but if you feel that isn't possible then and OCCASIONAL glass of organic wine or sake would be the best choices. Alcoholic beverages in the USA do not often list all their ingredients (unlike food, an ingredients list is not required by law) and many of them are harmful additives. If you are ever becoming seriously drunk or anything above even a "light buzz" your body is telling you you're drinking too much.
This is also a good time to mention that the American diet simply isn't conducive to health and especially, healing. Speak with your LLMD regarding what sort of diet is best for you, but I highly suggest that no matter what restrictions or lack thereof are right for you, to endeavor to eat as much certified organic food as possible.
http://www.organicconsumers.org is an advocacy group that has a lot of scientific data on why organic is a better choice so I encourage you to peruse at your leisure.
Now, depending on the legality of medical grade cannabis in your state, that may be a more healthful route for you. http://www.norml.org has links to many medical benefits of cannabis and debunks many of the prohibitionist nonsense and bad science that has guided drug policy over the last century. If you are using alcohol in any way besides recreation (ie. I know many patients who at one time used alcohol as pain relief), it may be something to look into. Just remember that smoking any substance is harmful to your health - inhalation of partially combusted carbon-based compounds is toxic to the system - but vaporization and oral consumption can provide active cannabinoids via safer vectors.
Posts: 691 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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TF
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 14183
posted
lizking, yes lyme symptoms can come and go. In fact, that is a main characteristic of lyme disease.
Most women with lyme get much worse around their monthly period also, due to hormonal fluctuations. Lyme loves certain female hormones.
Also, lyme can be episodic. For example, I would have symptoms for 7 months and then wake up one day totally fine. I would be fine for 5 months and then wake up one day with the dreaded symptoms again.
That went on for the first 5 years I had lyme disease. It seemed insane that that could be even possible, let alone happening to me over and over. Then, the symptoms became permanent.
Also, most cases of fibromyalgia are really lyme disease. People with fibro often start out by having episodes of it. Then, after so many years, they have it all the time.
Another lyme symptom is exhaustion after exercise. If a person with lyme does too much exercise, they can take a week to get over it.
Horrendous fatigue is a very common symptom with this disease.
And, people with lyme definitely have little alcohol tolerance. It's on the list of lyme symptoms as "Exaggerated symptoms or worse hangover from alcohol."
See the list on pages 9-10 of the Burrascano lyme treatment guidelines found here:
Burrascano is the lyme disease guru. So, it would be time well spent if you read through this document. It will give you an education on this disease, which is extremely complex.
It took 10 years of me going from doctor to doctor before I found one who figured out that what I had was lyme disease. Don't want that to be you.
Just know that the lyme tests are pretty unreliable. So, the correct way to make the diagnosis is based on symptoms. You'll see that stated in Burrascano.
Many, many people with lyme get a negative lyme test and so think that lyme is not a possibility. They go many more years with this illness before they find out that they actually DO have lyme disease.
Don't want that to be you. Get to a doc who has treated hundreds or thousands of people with this disease. That doc will be able to tell you by questioning you whether or not you have lyme disease.
Keep reading and you will likely come to your own conclusion. Wish you the best.
Posts: 9931 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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