b

You are absolutely right in wondering where all the anger is. There is not a person here who has not been misdiagnosed, suffered, been ruined physically, emotionally and/or financially as you say. We have all had (or may be having) moments of anger and incredible frustration. This is where we come when we are at our worst and need an understanding audience.

I do not believe there is any apathy, but instead, acceptance of what is and desire to make a change. Anger lets us vent, but does nothing for us in the end.

In the words of a wise man (Eckhart Tolle) "Surrender is perfectly compatible with taking action, initiating change and achieving goals" (such as getting well) "But in the surrendered state a totally different quality flows into your doing. You see very clearly what needs to be done and you take action."

We have got to eventually let go of our anger as best we can so we can focus on the positive and make our way through this frustrating maze. You will see very positive posts here because we all need to lift each other up to truly fight the fight.

quote:

---

Originally posted by thislittlepiggie:
Dear B-

You are absolutely right in wondering where all the anger is. There is not a person here who has not been misdiagnosed, suffered, been ruined physically, emotionally and/or financially as you say. We have all had (or may be having) moments of anger and incredible frustration. This is where we come when we are at our worst and need an understanding audience.

I do not believe there is any apathy, but instead, acceptance of what is and desire to make a change. Anger lets us vent, but does nothing for us in the end.

In the words of a wise man (Eckhart Tolle) "Surrender is perfectly compatible with taking action, initiating change and achieving goals" (such as getting well) "But in the surrendered state a totally different quality flows into your doing. You see very clearly what needs to be done and you take action."

We have got to eventually let go of our anger as best we can so we can focus on the positive and make our way through this frustrating maze. You will see very positive posts here because we all need to lift each other up to truly fight the fight.

Hope I have given a bit of an answer to your very tough question. lj

---

I have moments when I am all hyped up and ready to go, and then suddenly I can't remember what I did or thought the day before. Not a very effective dilemma to be in. Yesterday my back and hip gave out, I am having trouble breathing and walking b/c of the pain, but I just keep on going. I remember that this very same pain and in the same place, when I first became very ill. Cannot wait to restart abx again at beginning of May.

Jump on the bandwagon with Tincup and others, work with them to get the changes we all need, get involved even if it's only a little bit. We all need to have one voice and stay united.

That's why I'm called Lymerayja

Seriously speaking, I don't suffer "Lyme-rage", which is a neuropsychiatric symptom of Lyme, a wild, blind, and totally-out-of the-patient's-control rage, but I do suffer from the logical and justified anger that so many of us feel, because of this corrupt Steere camp that has trashed our lives.

It seems to be the trend now in some quarters to view "anger" as something negative in itself. Not so, it is very human and normal to be angry, when there is something very real to be angry about.

As long as the anger is channelled into constructive action, and is not turned on innocent friends or family, or on yourself, it is actually a positive thing for us.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by thislittlepiggie:

We have got to eventually let go of our anger as best we can so we can focus on the positive and make our way through this frustrating maze. You will see very positive posts here because we all need to lift each other up to truly fight the fight.

Hope I have given a bit of an answer to your very tough question. lj

---

One more thing about anger. There's nothing wrong with it. Even Jesus said, "Be angry, but do not sin."

If we all brought our families aswell. Anyone that has been affected by Lyme....

I'd be there in a heart beat. Just double up on my pain meds and go...

quote:

---

Originally posted by thislittlepiggie:
We have got to eventually let go of our anger as best we can so we can focus on the positive and make our way through this frustrating maze.

---

exactly, no battle is won with anger. never has been.

hence the failure of say the black panthers or malcom X vs the success of MLK.

or the South African apartheid movement, abolitionism, or even the Palestinian movement currently.

when you are approach change and reform you have to be copasetic and nonviolent (in the vocal sense additionaly to the physical sense) to win the respect of the population and your peers.

outlandish military-esque escapades are doomed for social ostrasization and utter failure.

velvet revolutions are the way of the 21st century, not the proverbial brimstone and fire.

Unfortunately in the grips of CNS lyme you often can't pull yourself out of bed or think rationally.

As I improve I plan on starting a website and maybe even organization which has goals of aggressively and intelligently battling the steerites in a manner which I have not found to be available currently.

But it is important to remember that to effect real change, you have to be judicious, careful and reasonable when talking to those who disagree. I sometimes get disheartened, but then I realize that most lyme patient's big problem IS NOT the mass of medical doctors - most of these are fundamently decent human beings who have been brainwashed by a carefully coordinated propaganda campaign.

They simply haven't been exposed to certain information which runs contrary to what the steerites present through their fascist hold on journals and such. These represent minds which can be changed or at least opened.

without anger there is no passion.
without passion there is no stimulous for change.

let's talk about MLK and ghandi. Are you saying you are in support of massive protest marches, boycotts, hunger strikes, human chains, etc.? Would you support a human wall around yale university's lyme clinic until eugene shapiro who has defamed everyone on this board and contributed almost more than steere himself to the marginalization of lyme patients was fired by yale university? Let's go, I say. I'll leave for the northeast tomorrow.

I don't advocate violence unless your life or liberty is directly endangered. But it is wrong to say that violence is never effective. Do you know how many people died at the hands of the communists in russia and china respectively during their revolutions? Or how many japanese civilians were burnt alive by the US army air force during WW2? Or how many Iraqis have been killed in both gulf wars?
The only violent movements you are pointing to are those that have failed...probably because they didn't kill enough people, or had enough converts to get it done. The only reason that movements like Hamas fail is because they are subjected to a tyranny which exercises even greater violence than do they. Thus the allied victories in ww2, for instance.

As for people in lymeland being carried away, can you point to a single act of violence in which someone has been killed in the cause of lyme reform other than lyme patients who have died of complications of their disease?

Lyme patients with CNS symptoms often experience neuropsychiatric symptoms such as irritability, emotional lability, etc. You betray a total lack of understanding of this aspect of the disease.

I look forward to our lunch.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:
exactly, no battle is won with anger. never has been.

hence the failure of say the black panthers or malcom X vs the success of MLK.

or the South African apartheid movement, abolitionism, or even the Palestinian movement currently.

when you are approach change and reform you have to be copasetic and nonviolent (in the vocal sense additionaly to the physical sense) to win the respect of the population and your peers.

outlandish military-esque escapades are doomed for social ostrasization and utter failure.

velvet revolutions are the way of the 21st century, not the proverbial brimstone and fire.

but people in Lymeland seemed to be generally carried away by their emotions and not guided by rational, co-ordinated thought.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Aligondo Bruce:
Would you support a human wall around yale university's lyme clinic until eugene shapiro who has defamed everyone on this board and contributed almost more than steere himself to the marginalization of lyme patients was fired by yale university?

---

i don't see what the point of that would be to be honest. the goal is not to make foolish endeavors just to defame people.

quote:

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Do you know how many people died at the hands of the communists in russia and china respectively during their revolutions?

---

those were both revolutions that

a) were of the old guard (meaning not modern revolutions)

b) both fallacious revolutions in that they did not meet in any way, shape or form their intended philosophic goals.

quote:

---

Or how many japanese civilians were burnt alive by the US army air force during WW2? Or how many Iraqis have been killed in both gulf wars?

---

those were not revolutions but military tactics.

quote:

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The only violent movements you are pointing to are those that have failed...probably because they didn't kill enough people, or had enough converts to get it done.

---

in that vein if Al-Qaeda employs enough zealouts and kills enough people their revolutionary ideals will be met?

violence should be always a last resort. prudence and patient action should be first, second and third.

per example and on point - Pat Smith and Dr. Fallon meeting with the NY Gov's office to present material and discuss pertinant materials to OPMC reform in regard to Lyme disease.

small steps in time.

quote:

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As for people in lymeland being carried away, can you point to a single act of violence in which someone has been killed in the cause of lyme reform other than lyme patients who have died of complications of their disease?

---

violence is not merely physical, i demarcated the fact that i was speaking in terms of violent, provoking and non-rational speech.

quote:

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I look forward to our lunch.

---

They may not have met philosophic goals, but the last time I checked the communist party was in control in china.

An argument could be made that the violent american revolution has failed to meet philosphic goals. Or innumerable others.

how about vietnam?
A lot of people died here, including 57,000 americans or thereabouts. Communists still in control last time I checked.

Iranian revolution? Thousands died. Revolutionaries still in control.

Burma?
Zaire?
Algeria?

The point about ww2 wasn't revolution, it was about the effectiveness of violent tactics. Revolutions are always wars in a figurative and/or literal sense. A revolution in thought usually is marred by great controversy. Sometimes thought revolutions are accompanied by real wars where people actually get their heads chopped off, such as in the case of the reformation or french revolution.

Al quaeda, if it kills millions of people, can achieve its goal of a greater muslim state in the middle east and south asia. While they may betray their ideals in doing so, it makes little difference because most successful revolutionaries end up betraying their ideals as they come into power and succumb to greed and other temptations such as blonde bimbos who throw themselves at their feet. The point is winning, not in retaining every ideal. The nazis came to power primarily by backing off certain socialist aspects of their platform and catering to big business which then provided support and financing in the early thirties which helped catapult hitler into the chancellor's office.

After all, the steerites through their corrupt actions motivated by greed venality and vanity have long since abandoned all scientific ideals of free exchange of ideas, careful and open-minded consideration, etc.
They resort to mental fascism and obstructionist tactics designed to block scientific progress, not advance it.And who can doubt that they are winning?

One way to defeat these bastards is to go even lower than do they. After all, it is america that dropped atomic bombs. And who won that war?

Sitting around on our asses these past 15 years hasn't accomplished jack doodly doo, if you ask me. Maybe things will start to change with fallon's publications, but having seen how dirty steere and klempner and others are willing to be in order to protect their own vanity and advance careers, I'm not very hopeful.

And you failed to answer the main question. DO you actually support MLK and ghandi tactics such as mass protests, marches, human chains, boycotts, etc.? Or were you just blowing hot air?

quote:

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Originally posted by zipzip:
me too, but i'm not paying

---

How many angry in this thread, have sent an e-mail of support for this legislation ?
How many have contacted your e-mail buddies and asked for their support ?

There's 15 respondents to this thread. Think 15 e-mails to the sponsors of this lyme legislation wouldn't help ?

quote:

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Originally posted by Aligondo Bruce:
it pales in comparison to the violence perpetrated upon lyme patients by the writings of steere et. al. which condemns all patients suffering from seronegativity and persistent infection (and both undeniably exist) to hell.

---

totally agreed. but it is up to doctors and medical associations to accept or deny his argument.

there are published papers to the contrary (supporting persistant infection) but Steere, et all's argument has been the popular one, though i can't see why given the history and evidence of the borrelia spirochete.

quote:

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One thing comes through loud and clear in your writings...the lack of anger. the lack of passion. The lack of real, personal understanding of this illness.

---

bitterness is a waste of my good energy. so i don't whine about it. s**t happens. happens everyday. i'm not an angry person.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aligondo Bruce:
you failed to answer the main question. DO you actually support MLK and ghandi tactics such as mass protests, marches, human chains, boycotts, etc.? Or were you just blowing hot air?

---

absolutely, but only when concerted and directed properly. i'm not going to protest for the sake of protesting.

there must be an explicit goal in mind, both immediate and long term.

when the entirety of your young life is consumed by years of bouncing round from psychiatrist to psychiatrist interspersed with mental hospitalizations, diagnoses including psychosis, paranoid delusions, and schizophrenia, and then in the end you realize that it didn't have to be that way, that the years of destruction which ended with you ruined as a person and totally isolated in the world in every way with little understanding from others and no prospect of much of a future, all because allen steere and his ilk couldn't bring themselves to present LEGITIMATE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE THAT LYME DISEASE CAUSES PSYCHIATRIC PROBLEMS, THAT LYME DISEASE IS NOT ALWAYS SEROPOSITIVE, etc. and because of this your doctors didn't know and you didn't know even though you spent HUNDREDS OF HOURS at a university library trying to figure out what was wrong in your more sane and less fatigued moments only to lear FROM A $%@#@% INTERNET SITE WHAT THE PROBLEM WAS, and then have your suspicions confirmed by SPECT scan, LP, blood serology, emg, etc., and in the meantime YOUR FUTURE HAS BEEN DESTROYED BY YOUR PAST, and you find yourself at the age of 30 living with your parents and you can't even begin to think about dating, etc., even if you did feel like sex, BECAUSE NOBODY UNDERSTANDS YOU, YOU TEND TO GET REALLY PISSED OFF.

Now, I can accept that bad things happen every day. BUT THIS DID NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN. If I had a genetic disease like huntington's, sure, you accept that and move on.
The single most disturbing aspect of lyme disease is that in many cases diagnosis is tragically delayed. And the primary cause of this is the ranting of shapiro, steere, etc., who have gone out of their way to ensure that their own pet theories and interests are protected AT THE EXPENSE OF THOUSANDS OF LIVES.

Bitter? I'll never not be bitter for the lost years and devastated relationships. You may be able to cavalierly write off your experiences, or put on a big fat happy face, and that's great, you're probably one of the lucky ones who got a diagnosis within one year or so. But don't assume that your experiences and apparent ease of acceptance should translate into others similarly being able to accept their experiences and fates WHILE ALLEN STEERE LAUGHS HIS ASS OFF AND PLAYS HIS STRADIVARIOUS WITH HIS GREEDY LITTLE FINGERS.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:
bitterness is a waste of my good energy. so i don't whine about it. s**t happens. happens everyday. i'm not an angry person.

and obviously i don't need to qualify my illness.

---

fortunately for me i haven't had as long of history as you.

i get pissed off at the drop of your hat.but since i can't reach out and smack the hell outa you,i could verbably attack you.

don't know about the rest here,but "my" keet's seem to love it when i am pissed/angry.

they do some crazy stuff inside of me.screwz me you inside for a few day's..

so i try not to get angry.this way the little bSTARD'S don't get stirred up. win...

but if you like, me and you could let them out.but i still take responsability for my action's...even though i am a major screwup right mow.

need to organize..you wanna carry the banner? 1st off, you capable?

what's for breakfast? i'm hungry..and good morning......gary

------------------

now, would you like me to speak for/represent you?

You speak of projecting onto others. I am not sure I understand what you are talking about exactly. Perhaps you could elaborate.

When a scandal which is lyme disease research and characterization results in mass human suffering, are you suggesting that people should not be angry? This is absurd. Perhaps you have suffered greater brain damage than you realize.

You seek to drain the passion and emotion which primarily drives major human endeavor and replace this with robotic placidity and idiotic complacency.

I gather from your statements that you prefer people sit around on their asses and do nothing. I would ask you what have you done exactly in your castrated state of personal contentment to end the tragedy which continues to doom thousands of young lives to fates such as those affecting you and I. A tragedy which largely need not take place were it not for the driving ambition of steere and others to misinform and preserve a false picture of what lyme disease is for reasons of personal vanity and self-interest.

It is not a consolation to me that you have a limited lifestyle.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:
well if it's of any consolation i'm nearing 30, can't work, date, etc and live at home as well.

fortunately for me i haven't had as long of history as you.

i'm not saying i don't feel bad for myself but i don't project it onto others. not my style personally.

---

I think anger motivates as well. Look at other movements they get angry. Outrage definilty brings passion as mentioned above, if there was no passion nothing would happen about anything as people wouldn't care. Humans are very emotional, it is part of every fibre of our being. Without emotion you are dead inside.

There are other emotions that come up, this is how we cope. I often laugh at how lyme affects me. When dying last year, I went around saying Look at me "caspers cousin here, arent I cute" lol. Don't need a diet anymore just get some lyme and remain untreated and it's the best diet around.

People actually telling me how lucky I was to be so thin, and have no loose skin (it was so tight it could rip open), and I would laugh in disbelief.

Lots of anger around here, when you can do a search, look up "newbie from Canada here by lymiecanuck and you'll see how pissed I was.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aligondo Bruce:

When a scandal which is lyme disease research and characterization results in mass human suffering, are you suggesting that people should not be angry? This is absurd.

You seek to drain the passion and emotion which primarily drives major human endeavor and replace this with robotic placidity and idiotic complacency.

---

you've got me all wrong. i've stated that anger in and of itself will not be successful in promoting the interests you speak of unless it is controlled.

in politics, unless you are playing the populist card which does not apply here, anger or emotive fueled arguments do not win legislation or legal battles. simply put.

that is the reality of it.

as for myself i try not to be angry. you can be as angry as you want. i wouldn't dare tell you how to feel.

but that is demarcating the personal level from the professional cause.

i've never suggested complacency at all, i've only argued for rational proceedings to gain the outcomes of which we are speaking...

recognition of persistance and magnitude of Lyme disease.

But you cannot eliminate emotion because anger, sadness, etc. contribute mightily toward driving home the impact of the situation on those who may not have personally experienced the travails of lyme disease.

I disagree that the populist card as you say would not be effective. Especially in areas of the northeast where lyme is a very serious problem that affects all of the inhabitants, this ploy can be used very effectively in my opinion. People need to be made aware of the dangers of LD and in fact it is precisely this area that the steerites have made their greatest strides..."lyme disease is hard to catch and easy to cure".."the overdiagnosis of lyme disease"..and creating a false picture of the disease which stresses rheumatologic manifestations (which can suck) but almost totally neglecting the far more terrifying and devastating aspects including CNS disease, psychiatric complications, and difficulty in eradicating the infection.
What if it was widely known that at least in some cases lyme is difficult to cure, it can totally destroy you and your family and render you unable to work, basically it is an ineradicable microworm that can drive you insane, and guess what, it's probably in your front yard?
If that's not a populist issue, I don't know what is.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:
you've got me all wrong. i've stated that anger in and of itself will not be successful in promoting the interests you speak of unless it is controlled.

in politics, unless you are playing the populist card which does not apply here, anger or emotive fueled arguments do not win legislation or legal battles. simply put.

that is the reality of it.

as for myself i try not to be angry. you can be as angry as you want. i wouldn't dare tell you how to feel.

but that is demarcating the personal level from the professional cause.

i've never suggested complacency at all, i've only argued for rational proceedings to gain the outcomes of which we are speaking...

recognition of persistance and magnitude of Lyme disease.

[This message has been edited by zipzip (edited 05 April 2005).]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aligondo Bruce:
well, so we both agree that simply traveling to the local statehouse and screaming incoherently at greedy political pigs or tracking down steere somewhere and throwing rotten tomatoes while probably hilarious will not help the cause.

---

steere getting punk'd!

quote:

---

I disagree that the populist card as you say would not be effective. Especially in areas of the northeast where lyme is a very serious problem that affects all of the inhabitants, this ploy can be used very effectively in my opinion.

---

unless Lyme (in the chronic sense) affects you, your family or someone close to you believe me most people in the NE know almost nothing about it.

that will change eventually, but very very very slowly.

unfortunatley unless someone incredibly famous gets chronic Lyme and has an expose on ET or the Insider most people are not paying attention.

quote:

---

What if it was widely known that at least in some cases lyme is difficult to cure, it can totally destroy you and your family and render you unable to work, basically it is an ineradicable microworm that can drive you insane, and guess what, it's probably in your front yard?

If that's not a populist issue, I don't know what is.

---

there are many Lyme associations in the NE hard at work at education programs, but unless the MD assocations accept persistant infection the majority of the public will not be informed of such.

i know of a few people who got Lyme gardening in fact. fortunatlely the majority got well with long term IV treatment.

my neighbor got bitten (got the bulls-eye) last summer working in his yard and i gave him six weeks of doxy when his doctor only gave him 2. thankfully he hasn't had any problems since.

most people view doctors as fairly omnipotent, that is until they have a problem .

You could date "weisman" . You know the one, you said this about:

From: zipzip ([email protected])
Subject: Re: lyme disease documentary
View: Complete Thread (17 articles)
Original Format
Newsgroups: sci.med.diseases.lyme
Date: 2004-06-30 13:54:07 PST

thanks for all the support weisman.
i hope we can bury any semantic hardships because i believe
ideolgically we are on the same page."

For those Lymenetters who don't know of "weisman", he is the Chief Skunk on sci-med who has condemned the whole of ILADS, and the whole of LymeNet, and reserves his most vicious abuse form those who criticise the Steere camp (whilst occasionally pretending to be a Lymie trying to "help" us choose the right strategies).

As you feel ideologically on the same page as him, Zippy, maybe you two could look forward to a happy future together?

Of course, if you don't fancy him, you could always give "jwismille" a call. (Assuming they are not the same man, as he uses multiple aliases.)

Not to be confused with "Jwissmille", who is Georgia, a popular and respected Lymie, "jwismille" with one "s" chose his name in order to harass and discredit her and create confusion. He is best known for compulsively posting dangerous and insulting misinformation by Ed McSweegan. For instance:

"The fact that Lyme disease is usually curable has not discouraged the formation
of over a hundred support groups and nonprofit foundations, some with financial
backing from intravenous services hoping to promote further long-term
antibiotic therapies [27]. These groups and their ardent followers have used
the Internet and other media to barrage politicians and the general public with
misinformation, dire personal stories, rumors, and exaggerated claims about
thousands of people being maimed, killed and bankrupted each year by Lyme
disease. The core message is that Lyme is a deadly chronic disease that
requires long-term antibiotic therapy paid for by insurance companies. Despite
its alleged frequency, NIH-funded clinical trials in Boston and Bethesda were
hampered by a lack of patients who met science-based criteria ..."

I won't quote too much of this vile crap, as I don't want to provoke a hypertensive crisis in anyone here.

Now, if anyone is wondering why I suggest that zippy and this noxious snake get together, it's because of what happened when zippy first came to sci.med.diseases.lyme.

Zippy said he was making a documentary about Lyme and asked people to get in touch with him, especially if they had info about sensitive political Lyme-related matters.

Well, some people were mistrusting as no one knew zippy, but suddenly someone piped up to assure everyone he was ok:

JWismille ([email protected])
Subject: Re: lyme disease documentary

View this article only
Newsgroups: sci.med.diseases.lyme
Date: 2004-06-29 08:14:21 PST

I know him. Its safe to give him the info."

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:
well if it's of any consolation i'm nearing 30, can't work, date, etc and live at home as well.

fortunately for me i haven't had as long of history as you.

i'm not saying i don't feel bad for myself but i don't project it onto others. not my style personally.

---

I am not saying we should not be fighting for good legislation, don't get me wrong. But I do believe those efforts **alone** will not be enough to make a real difference.

This is because I (and others) believe that the government, both in US and in UK where I live (as well as many other countries), is backing the Steere camp and that things have been so since Steere made his famous "discovery" in the 1970's.

So, even though it was a great achievement to obtain the bill passed in 2001, instructing CDC to stop screwing the Lyme community by allowing its surveillance criteria to be misused for diagnosis, nevertheless the CDC has done absolutely ZIP about it in real terms.

I believe that in addition to fighting for good legislation, we also need to educate oursleves about the enormous conflicts of interest the Steere camp have with the insurance industry, the military (hence govt support and CDC shenanigans), Glaxo SmithKline and various vaccine/terst-kit makers etc, and how all this has affected us.

Until all this corruption is exposed and the role of successive governments in the fraud exposed too, agencies like CDC and NIH will continue to flout their public responsibilities and laugh in our faces.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by NP40:
In "Medical" there's three threads devoted to legislation to help lymies in New York, Maryland, and California.

How many angry in this thread, have sent an e-mail of support for this legislation ?
How many have contacted your e-mail buddies and asked for their support ?

There's 15 respondents to this thread. Think 15 e-mails to the sponsors of this lyme legislation wouldn't help ?

How about if each of us passed this on to 4 e-mail pals each, and we all responded, and sent letters to sponsors of this legislation ? Think a bill sponsor wouldn't notice 60 e-mail's in a day ?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lymerayja:
Ok zipzit, if you are having such a hard time finding a date, I have a suggestion for you.

You could date "weisman" . You know the one, you said this about:

---

i have no problem getting a date thank you very much, but i'm not so selfish as to put my problems on anyone else.

though i wouldn't date you if you paid me, i wouldn't want to spend a whole evening puking because of the site of your hideousness.

if you actually read what weisman says he backs up his points with well thought rationale, unlike you who just rants and raves.

at that point you can disagree with him but not with foaming, ad hominem attacks. rather with actual argumentative points that exist in the realm of reality.

but that may be a stretch for your intelligence and sanity.

quote:

---

I won't quote too much of this vile crap, as I don't want to provoke a hypertensive crisis in anyone here.

---

one would hope you have better things to do than look for year old postings on a usenet group.

but you are the only one who is vile. constantly haranging people without the slightest rhyme or reason.

with the exception of you, and you warrant exception for endlessly trying to defame for the last week, i am very cordial with those that i converse with over the internet.

i don't know jwismille, you say not to believe anything that person says but selectively so you take their word when it suits you.

you are by far the worst logician i have ever encountered, and stop taking up time and space on lymenet with your deranged contempt of me or anyone else.

it has been said that no one, including me, wants to hear it. per instance your last post of which i am responding has NOTHING to do with this thread. it is an ad hominem attack and nothing more.

kind of like the following -

... "for those Lymenetters who don't know of "lymerayja", she is the Chief Skunk on sci-med who has condemned anyone who doesn't share her fanciful, deranged conceptions.

she reserves her most vicious abuse for those who criticise her non-lucid ideals, whilst occasionally pretending to be a sane person trying to "help" us choose the right strategies to validate her narccisstic utter lunacy."

cherrio you weirdo.

But for those of us who have been at this for some time...we do what we can do. In little ways.

Some of us give lectures, some wear special tee shirts, some distribute information.

You don't feel anger at the Steere camp, you don't feel anger when weisman condemns the whole of ILADS and ridicules Lyme patients, (in fact, you feel on the same wavelength , as you yourself said on sci med.)

But when I point these things out, then you sure know how to express anger.

You say weisman backs up his opinions with evidence. Really? where is the evidence that all of ILADS are idiots, that the Steere camp is NOT deliberately corrupt, etc etc. Or that those who have spoken out against the Steere camp are "child abusers" , "NAMBLA members", "prostitutes", "stealing money from Lyme patients", "insane" , etc etc, and the 1001 other "ad hominem" accusations that he throws against anyone who criticises the Steere camp, or promotes legislation designed to protect our doctors from false accusations?

I don't see you complaining about those things. On the contrary, you say how much you find yourself in agreement with him.

Well he has continuously condemned this entire board, which he refers to as "LymeNut". Do you agree with that too?

And if so, why on earth are you here?

No, as someone recently noted, you have no passion for those who have been victim of this horrendous Lyme coverup.

But you're not totally incapable of feeling, are you? You don't half feel for yourself.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:
one would hope you have better things to do than look for year old postings on a usenet group.

but you are the only one who is vile. constantly haranging people without the slightest rhyme or reason.

with the exception of you, and you warrant exception for endlessly trying to defame for the last week, i am very cordial with those that i converse with over the internet.

i don't know jwismille, you say not to believe anything that person says but selectively so you take their word when it suits you.

you are by far the worst logician i have ever encountered, and stop taking up time and space on lymenet with your deranged contempt of me or anyone else.

it has been said that no one, including me, wants to hear it. per instance your last post of which i am responding has NOTHING to do with this thread. it is an ad hominem attack and nothing more.

kind of like the following -

... "for those Lymenetters who don't know of "lymerayja", she is the Chief Skunk on sci-med who has condemned anyone who doesn't share her fanciful, deranged conceptions.

she reserves her most vicious abuse for those who criticise her non-lucid ideals, whilst occasionally pretending to be a sane person trying to "help" us choose the right strategies to validate her narccisstic utter lunacy."

cherrio you weirdo.

[This message has been edited by zipzip (edited 05 April 2005).]

---

However at the risk of getting too involved in this debate I would point out that a simple history search on sci med will establish that a weisman has held past regency as the king of ad hominem attacks.

Much of what he has said about various individuals is unquotable and extremely obscene. So let's be fair here and point that out.

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:
one would hope you have better things to do than look for year old postings on a usenet group.

but you are the only one who is vile. constantly haranging people without the slightest rhyme or reason.

with the exception of you, and you warrant exception for endlessly trying to defame for the last week, i am very cordial with those that i converse with over the internet.

i don't know jwismille, you say not to believe anything that person says but selectively so you take their word when it suits you.

you are by far the worst logician i have ever encountered, and stop taking up time and space on lymenet with your deranged contempt of me or anyone else.

it has been said that no one, including me, wants to hear it. per instance your last post of which i am responding has NOTHING to do with this thread. it is an ad hominem attack and nothing more.

kind of like the following -

... "for those Lymenetters who don't know of "lymerayja", she is the Chief Skunk on sci-med who has condemned anyone who doesn't share her fanciful, deranged conceptions.

she reserves her most vicious abuse for those who criticise her non-lucid ideals, whilst occasionally pretending to be a sane person trying to "help" us choose the right strategies to validate her narccisstic utter lunacy."

cherrio you weirdo.

[This message has been edited by zipzip (edited 05 April 2005).]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lymerayja:
But when I point these things out, then you sure know how to express anger.

---

i would call it a perturbing nuisance that you will not leave me alone. in other words i am annoyed by you.

trust me you have never seen me angry, and you would not like to. futhermore i wouldn't give you the satisfaction.

i don't wear my emotions on my sleeve and i'm assuredly not going to show them or share them with someone whose key mission in relationship to me is to cut me off at the knees.

you remind of a pestering, stubborn child who keeps provoking until they get what they want.

quote:

---

You say weisman backs up his opinions with evidence. Really?

I don't see you complaining about those things. On the contrary, you say how much you find yourself in agreement with him.

---

lisa you really are a wonderous imbecile. you amaze me.

i'm not going to defend or condemn weisman, i don't know why you associate me with him. you'd think we were highschool chums or colleagues they way you state it.

do i bother to use your allegiance or association with kathleen dickson as a point of argument, no. because you speak for yourself and she speaks for herself.

i've said that i find him rational and that i agree with him on certain things, hardly everything. and i have said the he has his fair share of venemous activity.

you keep reaching but you keep digging yourself deeper.

quote:

---

why on earth are you here?

---

because i find you so bloody charming.

quote:

---

as someone recently noted, you have no passion for those who have been victim of this horrendous Lyme coverup.

---

you obviously don't know me and obviously have not read anything i've posted on this site in the last six months that i have been a flash member.

are you too farsighted to notice subtle distinctions?

quote:

---

You don't half feel for yourself.

---

what kind of sadist pyschology is that? because i am ill i should spend all of my waking hours complaining about it?

and you want me to feel horrible about my feeling horrible?

you are certainly quite the existential humanist....

this is definitively the last time i will respond to you on this board. if you want to subject me to your shenanigans and speak about sci.med in depth take it sci.med.

better yet i am terminating the conversation with you. you obviously have nothing good to add to my life or stream of consciousness.

best of luck in all your endeavors.... bye.

but some people want to radically take on reformation of the whole system. it doesn't work like that.

maybe we should have a parade or something to celebrate all the progress! we could all wear green ribbons and some people could bake cupcakes and we could even hire out one of those water dunk tanks from the county fair.

Oh, that would just be marvelous, wouldn't it?

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:
kara is right on target.

but some people want to radically take on reformation of the whole system. it doesn't work like that.

simple gestures go a long, long way

---

Weisman is well known to be from the Steere camp (ditto for the internet alias "jwismille" and "jopn", who ended up dragged into court and revealed to be Nowakowski of NYMC.

You know, the morons who gave us the ALDF etc..

Now, you have been friendly to Weisman and Jwis from the start, and vice versa, when they are friendly to almost no one else, and as far as sadism, they take the cake.

What could be more sadistic than calling the thousands of suffering people who have participated in this board "LymeNut", when Weisman knows damn well how many Lymies have been denied diagnosis and treatment (and otherwise had their lives wrecked) by being labelled "crazy", "hypochondriac" , "neurotic" and other phony psychiatric diagnoses?

What could be more sadistic than making fun of women who have had their children taken away over Lyme issues?

You mentioned Kathleen Dickson. Kathleen Dickson is a biochemist who has in the past co-written mateial for ILADS. She was targetted by weisman from the moment she sent a list of names of Steere camp scientists, NIH officials etc to the Dept of Justice on charges of racketeering and scientific fraud.(In fact the screen name "weisman" only came into existence for the first time at that point.)

"Chuck Adams", a long-time troll who has always openly declared his hatred of Lyme patients (and is cheered on by weisman on sci-med), and who incidentally carries the identical internet router tracing to jwismille, announced a horrendous allegation that Kathleen "wanted to drive her kids into a lake".

Despite not a shred of evidence and despite witnesses attesting to the fact that she has always been a loving mother, the DCF accepted these false charges and her children were taken away from her and placed with a man with a history of violence towards them.

There is NO logical explanation as to how a Steere camp newsgroup troll ("Chuck/Jwis")could have been privy to the fact that such a charge would be laid against her, before she was herself.

Kathleen, who could possibly have spearheaded an investigation into the scientific fraud of the Steere camp, is now emotionally broken from her experiences in losing her children.

After hearing from her lawyer that the DCF hoped to have her incarcerated in amental hospital for her belief that the Steere camp had committed scientific fraud (labelled paranoia etc), Kathleen panicked and fled to Canada.

While she was in Canada, Weisman jeered and rejoiced at her plight and the situation of her children.

Later it was announced that there was a warrant for her arrest for harssing a DCF employee. In her emotional disarray, Kathleen had written many emails insulting this woman. It;s a very common reaction of parents in Kathleen's situation, and given the fact that Kathleen's children were unjustly removed, and transferred into a situation where they are possibly in danger, a very normal and human response.

You could call it post-traumatic stress disorder.

Nevertheless, Weisman responded to this arrest warrant by expending, (along with his friend chuck/jwis), huge efforts to find her in Canada, so he could deliver her up to the US authorities for jailing.

They did this quite openly on the Usenet.

She was subsequently jailed for many months for publicly insulting a social worker (which thousands of women in her position do without ending up in jail). In jail she suffered horrendously, dropped to 109 pounds in weight (she is tall), and like the other prisoners, was kept in conditions lacking basic sanitation (having to take showers standing ankle deep in used sanitary towels in a place where most prisoners are HIV positive, for example).

Weisman and his friends from the Steere camp continued to jeer at her while she was in jail, and the Chuck/Jwis character joked that she might be sexually attacked in there by lesbians, which he found hilarious.

And you state that **I** am sadistic, for questioning your friend ship with these people???!!!!!!

And "threaten" to tell everyone about my friendship with Kathleen?

I started the support group for Kathleen when she was in jail, and a number of people who are on Lymenet participated in it.

I am most certainly not ashamed of that, but find it incredible that you, as a Lymie who has suffered the same things as the rest of us (as you say), could feel anything but revulsion for "Weisman" and "Jwismille", when in fact it is totally the opposite.

Well, Kathleen is a high-functioning autistic woman and she does have some disabilities incommunication and social relations. That is no secret, and it has led her to get into arguments with many in Lymeland in the past.

However, NONE of those Lymies with whom Kathleen fell out tried to have her chukdren removed, NONE of them spent time trying to trace her in Canada or ever threatened to ask the police to jail her, NONE of them made fun of her children's plight nor of her being thrown in jail.

NONE said they hoped she would be sexually attacked in jail.

This is just what your friends did to one Lymie, Kathleen. I will not talk about how they have abused other Lyme activists and LLMDs, as this post would then go on forever.

Do you feel that kind of conduct is justified? And do you feel that someone who questions your friendliness and collaboration with the Steere camp swine (and I am not saying YOU are one, I am just wondering why you are so friendly with them?), do you feel that if I question that, that is "sadism"?

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:
what kind of sadist pyschology is that? [This message has been edited by zipzip (edited 06 April 2005).]

---

chief's ,no indian's..seen your type,come and go on here.

i often wonder how all of you can remember or recall thing's.anything!

never misspell anything,never trip over your own word's..

lyme hasn't hurt your ego's either..

i wonder about the person who started this post.1st question is about getting pissed off.when most people's

1st question is about finding a llmd.or worried about "lyme symtom's"...

pat yourselve's on your back,and do something constructive..

gonna go puke.......geden13

Some have suggested setting up a group to discuss these matters, I think it's a start.

I think your attack on the person who started this thread is unwarranted. That person has most likely been through an enormous struggle of trying to get diagnosis and treatment like most everybody else.

Also, it does not make sense to me to make an issue about whether someone can spell or not. Some people have worse cognitive problems than others; also some of these symptoms flucutate in some.

For example, if you look at zip-zip's posts on sci-med, many have awful spelling, while his posts here have good spelling.

Also not everyone is here primarily because they are fighting for their own health; some are healthy and fighting for loved ones.

Just as no one here should be belittled because of poor memory and other Lyme cognitive problems, equally it makes no sense to belittle someone for NOT having those problems.

After all, some of our LLMDs have chronic Lyme but still manage to practise and to produce fine written articles.

Neurocognitive problems are very commmon in chronic Lyme, but not everyone is affected by the illness as severely or in exactly the same way.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by GEDEN13:
instead of talking this to death,why don't you do something?

chief's ,no indian's..seen your type,come and go on here.

i often wonder how all of you can remember or recall thing's.anything!

never misspell anything,never trip over your own word's..

lyme hasn't hurt your ego's either..

i wonder about the person who started this post.1st question is about getting pissed off.when most people's

1st question is about finding a llmd.or worried about "lyme symtom's"...

pat yourselve's on your back,and do something constructive..

gonna go puke.......geden13

---

not much comment on the rest of what you said, as it will only arouse you to anger and I see no point in that. Other than to say that the disease has different effects on different people. And some people have improved with intensive antibiotic therapy, but still feel strongly about their experiences and have a desire for change.

In my case, I was a grade school spelling champion, etc. even in the throws of untreated neuroborreliosis confirmed by spect, LP, and blood serology and white matter lesions on MRI I had a perfect digit span on an IQ test.

I've gotta go take a crap.

quote:

---

Originally posted by GEDEN13:
instead of talking this to death,why don't you do something?

chief's ,no indian's..seen your type,come and go on here.

i often wonder how all of you can remember or recall thing's.anything!

never misspell anything,never trip over your own word's..

lyme hasn't hurt your ego's either..

i wonder about the person who started this post.1st question is about getting pissed off.when most people's

1st question is about finding a llmd.or worried about "lyme symtom's"...

pat yourselve's on your back,and do something constructive..

gonna go puke.......geden13

---

i guess you(lisa) don't remember me.you have emailed me.you wanna see?

i have also requested help and info from you.but you tend to ignore me.

you have a yahoo.com address..so why should i believe what anything you say?

you don't help me,with anything ,about lyme.

good for you,you put one over on me.i did/was believe you.

and don't preach to me about people being "worse off then me.you know nothing about me.you never replied to my email's.so how could you?

pertending (you) ,to be a white knight.you don't seem to be lymed.

come down of your horse.how come you are never looking for help,for lyme problem's?

and i also don't want zipper and ali ,telling me "good job" on lisa.you 2 belong together.

you people are so caught up in yourselve's. you have an audience to put on your show.

shame on you.... gary

I am not blaming you for that, it happens to many Lymies all the time, that they cannot express themselves clearly.

I have also been the subject of Steere camp hate messages since I first started speaking out about their fraud, so I don't always reply to letters, especially if they ask for lots of details about people I know in the Lyme movement who have spoken out.

Am not saying I had any special reason to mistrust you. But also I did not know you, and unless I'm remembering wrong you wrote and asked for info about Kathleen Dickson which was not public?

I don't feel that having a yahoo address is in an indication that a person can't be trusted. I used to use a commercial provider, and got hacked by a Steere camp scientist for my pains.

I never said anything to you that others were worse off than you, Gary. I do believe you have severe Lyme.

You ask, "how come [I] am never looking fro help for Lyme problems"?

Because I am banned by the United Kingdom Family Court from talking about the biggest "Lyme problems" in my life.

See?

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by GEDEN13:
i didn't "attack" anyone..my question is valid.

i guess you(lisa) don't remember me.you have emailed me.you wanna see?

i have also requested help and info from you.but you tend to ignore me.

you have a yahoo.com address..so why should i believe what anything you say?

you don't help me,with anything ,about lyme.

good for you,you put one over on me.i did/was believe you.

and don't preach to me about people being "worse off then me.you know nothing about me.you never replied to my email's.so how could you?

pertending (you) ,to be a white knight.you don't seem to be lymed.

come down of your horse.how come you are never looking for help,for lyme problem's?

and i also don't want zipper and ali ,telling me "good job" on lisa.you 2 belong together.

you people are so caught up in yourselve's. you have an audience to put on your show.

shame on you.... gary

---

no one is forcing you or anyone else to read this thread. Perhaps you have a subconscious desire to participate in our self-aggrandizing ego boosting activities? maybe a little jealous gary that we weren't giving you enough attention? And maybe gary in your rage you told a little lie and intimated that aligondo had said "good job" to you for confronting lisa when in fact nothing of the sort happened? And in so doing ruined my complicated plan for seducing zipzip by trying to get him/her to hate me?

the next showing of the tony-award winning hypertensive-crisis prompting blood boiling play "Lyme more pissed than you" will be at 5 PM, with a special guest appearance by the great method actor gary, playing the role of a very pissed off lyme patient who accidentally puts his clothes in the oven and his dinner in the washing machine, starting a whole chain of hilarious events ending with him bashing his head in on a computer monitor.

quote:

---

Originally posted by GEDEN13:
i didn't "attack" anyone..my question is valid.

i guess you(lisa) don't remember me.you have emailed me.you wanna see?

i have also requested help and info from you.but you tend to ignore me.

you have a yahoo.com address..so why should i believe what anything you say?

you don't help me,with anything ,about lyme.

good for you,you put one over on me.i did/was believe you.

and don't preach to me about people being "worse off then me.you know nothing about me.you never replied to my email's.so how could you?

pertending (you) ,to be a white knight.you don't seem to be lymed.

come down of your horse.how come you are never looking for help,for lyme problem's?

and i also don't want zipper and ali ,telling me "good job" on lisa.you 2 belong together.

you people are so caught up in yourselve's. you have an audience to put on your show.

shame on you.... gary

---

sweet dream's kiddie's..your lovable ,gary

p.s. miss lisa, i never inquired about any katherine whatever...you proved my point ,again..

You've made me laugh again!

Thx

Back to anger mode.

Has anyone seen Ralph ?

[This message has been edited by pq (edited 17 April 2005).]

[This message has been edited by pq (edited 18 April 2005).]

I had a comment, but then I read the replies and forgot my point.

Anger is raging through my body and sole. As with many of you I was ill for a very long time and missed my children growing up.

The memories are not there only pictures to look at and it breaks my heart. I would say that is on top of my anger list.

Anger is no early diagnosis therefore no treatment at an early stage.

Anger is freaking out on my husband tonight and I don't know why so I can't even say I am sorry because I don't know why.I can only cry it out.

I tried to read some of the postings but my eyes can't focus very long. I usually try to look at what I can do rather than not to keep a positive attitude but anger got a hold of me very tightly tonight.

I hate everything todo with this horrible disease. I want to have a life with my family and share the simple things.

Yes, I am very depressed tonight. Hopefully tomorrow will bring better things.

I appolize for going on but not for the time we all lost in our life. It is too short.

I pray for all of us and hopefully we will all be well very soon.

I know they say there is a reason for all that happens in ones life I am still trying to figure this out.

how do i get over drs laughing at me while i was dying?

and thier children living well and healthy.

grant t liu, lauded on a book review website as the "rising star" of neuro-opt and teaching the next generation of neuro opts. thinking in '98, 4 rashes that i can document in those yrs now with photos. wish awareness were better then and i knew what the rashes looked like. we didn't even have tv reception for more than 10 yrs.

but i became acutely ill on our '91 visit to nantucket island with both babesia and lyme, but did not know what hit me. and reinfectd...and sick husband...and passed it on to our children...

and grant t liu "leeping liu liu", thinks severe pain, severe insomnia and severe neuoro symptoms are oh ho ho ho so so so funny! i will post my records soon.

skanks!

and my daughter, due to her undx lyme symptoms, we sent her to a small private school, Quaker school! becuase of her symptoms, and well, he classmates mum was a , is a ? pediatric infectious disease specialists of "the best" variety. would have been nice if she had dx my children. would have been nice

friend scott, we are now 99.9% convinced also suffered from lyme. an area mag writer was very close friends with his mom. was going to expose the lyme controversy in spring 2000. but instead. article was "best" pediatric specialists, not suprisingly to me now, the mum of my duaghters classmate.

scott tied wieghts to himself and jumped into the delaware river - 4 yrs? - 4 yrs ago