We later learned that my daughter's other
friend had a tick on her pants. These
are the ones that they could see. I sure
hope that others didn't get bit, and then
symptoms will present later because no one
found the ticks.

I feel extremely relieved that my daughter
did NOT go on the trip for this very reason.
Four people with ticks on them, is too much
for me already.

It took me a long time, maybe months, a year? to figure out that ALL places that we used to venture into, would be off limits for now. Because, if after I finally got it through my thick foggy Lyme brain we were to go out into the places that had KNOWN tick populations in it, AND one of us came home with a #$%^& bite, then what? Back on the merry go round of money, abx, doctor appts. not covered by insurance, fighting the husband to continue treatment that was costing us thousands, etc.?

I thinkn not.

But then again, that only came after much thought, much experience.

You can't tell people that haven't experienced the horror, to not do what they still want to do.

Until they live it, and that is what I meant in my previous posts about having more weight to a response if the person posting has "been there" by having Lyme (as you do Di) and have the double/triple whammy of having kids who have Lyme, and have been through hell with treatment. Otherwise, it is conjecture, and I personally don't take that type of advice as closely to heart.

In January 2004, I went to a barn dance locally here in Northern CA. I KNEW I was going into an area where ticks were likely, but the barn itself did not have overhanging trees, or tall green grass near it. I came home to find a tick crawling on my stomach.

Talk about a wake up call, pure and true!!

The anger and rage and total loss of emotional control which led to my near hysteria for about a half hour, was not a situation I want to repeat. That is why in my mind, it is better safe than sorry. I was so sorry I let my mind think that going anywhere near this place was going to be "just fine".

I think it also depends on where you live, the amount of damage control you have to live in your everyday lives. We live near tick areas, but do not have to enter them to maintain our daily lives, that is why I say prevention.

We want to keep people from having to walk down similar paths that we have already traveled, isn't that the way it is for most people who care about other people? And certainly for moms who have sick kids, who see other kids becoming potentially sick as our own are.

But.

Sometimes people just have to live it before they believe it.

And lastly, I'm a firm believer in if you knowingly do something harmful, you deserve the after effects. Because you knowingly did wrong. You can't put that on children, either, because they do not have the life skills and maturity levels to judge some situations, and who can tell someone else at what age that just miraculously appears?

That's why we are the moms! (and dads I guess). You sure got your confirmation on your decision awful darn fast, didn't you Di?

I really worry about the kind of fingerpointing this implies. Insisting that people take responsibility for making smart choices is one thing; framing LD in terms of wrongdoing and punishment is another.

I love the outdoors and I have chosen not give it up. I take all the precautions I can. I'm careful about how and where I go. But I've chosen not to live in a concrete world.

Every year, 42,000 Americans are killed and thousands more badly hurt in car accidents. We don't stop driving cars (most of us, anyway), we buckle up and go carefully and take extra precautions on dangerous roads. We invest in roads and safety features in cars and legislation that tries to keep dangerous drivers off the roads. And we pray we won't be among the unlucky.

People with LD are victims of an indifferent and even fraudulent medical care system, a widespread lack of knowledge about this disease, and a refusal by the researchers at all levels and in all fields to acknowledge LD and seek ways to prevent its spread. And, to be honest, a lack of activism by people like me who should be screaming bloody murder and writing their mayors and state governments and congresspeople every day.

I completely respect and agree with Di's stance on this issue. The safeguards weren't in place, the venue dangerous, and the risk was untenable. Parents do have to make these calls for their children. Just as adults have to decide how much risk they choose to take, and how to mitigate it.

I don't think Julie was being punitive, but just making the point that we we can only really make choices to expose ourselves to risk, if we can also accept the possible consequences.

It is really, really hard for me to imagine going in the woods after all these years of suffering in my family, but as an individual, I might feel otherwise. But if I got sick, I guess I would in fact blame myself for having taken that risk, because going in the woods is optional! If my kids again got sick, truly, I would be beside myself not only with grief- all over again- but also guilt.

Artist Di, your post really helped me. Tomorrow, my daughter's class has an assembly about their trip. She really doesn't seem to mind, and is looking forward to an extra dance class, but still, it was affirming to read your post. I worry about all these other kids!

Our situation reminds me of the canary in the mines...I am somewhat chemicaly sensitive, and someone told me at the EPA, when I called to ask about a new carpet in the school, that people like me are fortunate. I am conscious of being harmed by toxic things, because I can feel them in my lungs, but the EPA said all the others are also inhaling the toxins, but their bodies aren't telling them to get away.

Maybe we're lucky to have this knowledge and experience that motivates some of us to avoid the risk posed by ticks. Everyone else goes into the woods casually, but they are really worse off than we are, because they aren't conscious of what they might be facing.

I can't decide things for other parents, especially those who don't suffer from Lyme,
who think that a tick is like a mosquito bite, that 10 days of Doxy is a cure. I
can't expect them to know what I know because
they don't live it.

But my kids are another story. I can offer
alternative options that will give them perhaps a new, different experience that will
stay with them. I knew that the kids in my
daughter's class were going into an area
indigenous for ticks, and therefore, Lyme.
Knowing that, made me veto this trip. I just
knew our family was stretched mentally, physically at the seams, and could not take
another blow.

I also believe that schools should now be
making more informed choices about trips. Other trips are available, or with planning,
could achieve the same "bonding" and science-
based curriculum needs. The problem is that
Nature's Classroom is "curriculum in a can"--
all events are mapped out, dining, bedding
provided so teachers don't have to plan.

I quess the choice is the family's. Lyddie, I would see about being reimbursed, etc. for alternative option for your child.

I am grateful for this section of Lymenet to
debate and to voice concerns.

FLOAT A SCENIC RIVER!!! You can drift along smelling the trees ,loking at all the wild flowers,and clifts,and never get a tick!!!

I am one who cannot do without nature ,but I can float through a wilderness and never get close to a tick.

Peeing on trees along the way is optional and dont let the leaves touch you.

What I am saying (I think) is that on one hand we should not have to be frightened of living life and enjoying the outdoors. I think that because we have all had experience with LD, we are more cautious and will either protect ourselves much better than we had in the past so that we can enjoy the outdoors, or change our lifestyles.

On the other hand, since many people have not had the same experiences that we have had with ticks and LD, they take a much more cavalier approach and don't really think about the repercussions of contracting this disease. In those instances, I think as parents we are wise not to place our kids in situations where adults really don't know how to properly protect kids (or themselves for that matter) outdoors.

My son's class is heading to the outdoors next week for a weeklong nature experience - right into prime tick territory I might add. People in my area have absolutely no clue about LD, so I know there will be little if any concern for ticks. There are close to 300 people going and only a handful staying behind - my son being one of them. He is doing well treatment wise, so why chance it? I realize that he can just as easily be reinfected in our own backyard,and while I can't control the ways of the universe, I know I can stay on top of things a bit better.

Julie

I've been up since 4:30a.m. My oldest son, a sophomore in high school, was taking a biology class at our local jr. college for the high school requirement to graduate.

That said, after 5 hours in this class (3 hrs lab, 2 hrs into the lecture portion) I realized that he was going to have to drop the class. It was so packed with information (not hard, just too much to absorb in the 18 days time frame of the summer school session). I was taking this bio class with him so I could help "tutor" him at home, if he needed it.

But, listen here folks, the *other* reason I realized I had to take hiim out of this class is because this Friday there was a field trip, and yup, you guessed it, into the open space area near where we live-PRIME TICK TERRITORY. I was so surprised to face this, at this point in the game.

I knew my son would not make it thru this college level class, not because he wasn't smart enough, but because I would have to not allow him to go on this bio field trip (that was a part of the lab section of the class). that would mean that this would be the 2nd lab he'd miss, and that would mean he'd be kicked out of the class, as the 2 missed labs were the limit.

I am facing these hard choices just about everywhere I turn. It can be very devisive, but I chose not to explain our leaving the class today, after the first day, to the college instructor, as I felt it was not in our best interests to elaborate our dropping the class so soon, and so suddenly.

So, trying to tie this up in a neat package-my son did not take biology at his high school this year because I was (wrongly) told by the guidance counselor that the biology class had a field trip to the wooded forested area as a part of the class (this is only a part of the summer school bio class at his high school, not a part of the regular bio class during the school year).

So, I did not allow him to take the bio class at high school this year, because I was told he could take biology at the jr. college, and it would count as his h.s. bio class requirement.

But, we get to the jr. college biology class, find out there's a field trip to a known tick area, and that combined with the double whammy of finding out the class time requirements were too overwhelming (6 hours of text book reading per night! for 4 weeks).

So, it's never gonna end. I accept that.

To further comment, Lyddie, again, you took my position and expanded it into what I WANTED to say (can't italize my font, sorry), thank you for that.

Di, I appreciate your added input into this post, it hits me in the right spot, and at times, I worried that I might be offending you with my strongly worded posts, but you seem to know what I was trying to say as well.

Maddog, man, if I could piss on a tree over this, I would!

And, Cootiegirl, yes, your last sentence hits it right on the nose for me. I completely agree with all you said in that paragraph!

I came back to this thread earlier today, and I was going to comment on Minoucat's post, but I was exhausted from my day at jr. college (last time I took a class at this college was 1985!). I just couldn't get it together to reply, but I did want to, and after reading all the other posts, I wanted to add my gratitude to the others who saw thru my pain and frustration, to say, well, thanks.

I get too wordy most times, in talking, and in writing, and my clear concise responses just get all muddy. I can't see thru them sometimes when I go back to read for typos.

But it doesn't come out right if I edit, so I usually just leave it.

And I hope that most can see thru my tone and know that in the past, I've tried to help other people avoid what I've lived thru, and I've tried to help people from allowing their kids to travel down this knarly road as well.

But what kicks it right in the butt so harshly is when my sons' school staff does not hear me. And I have given up on them.

Chow for now, and please know that I so appreciate all the kind words from you all.
Julie

When I do tell it,well many eat crow and a few,only a FEW have really taken the time to really listen and learn about this monster.

I know we all want to keep our kids protected.Just the other day,I was on the phone with a man running a camp for teens.
I was searching for a camp for my teen daughter,lyme has taken a toll mentally on her,no she does not have it but has watched me suffer 2 years.I have not always been there.

So,this camp takes the basics approach.They live in the woods,only the clothes on their backs,self discovery type thing.

I asked him about ticks and he said the ticks there did not carry Lyme.!!!!

In my heart,I could not send my daughter to this place,just what she needs to get Lyme on top of not having a Mom for the past couple of years.The attitude of the staff concerning ticks,well,I was blown away.

I decided to buy a new mixer and we are baking alot and painting her room,and hugging,when she will let me touch her.

Unfortunately,these kids think they are beyond catching anything,or getting hurt,much less a tick bite.

By the way, did they say if they were wood ticks or deer ticks?

quote:

---

Originally posted by SteveInMinnesota:
Very nicely worded minoucat. We all do the best we can as parents and no one "deserves" to get Lyme Disease.

By the way, did they say if they were wood ticks or deer ticks?

---

You win, I give up trying to get my slant into closed minded people such as yourself.

It is important to be careful with language, and that includes me, too. We're all fragile, here, and suffering, and sometimes the wrong dog gets kicked.

Lyddie and Cootiegirl stepped in and very gracefully straightened out what we both meant to say, I think.

And yes, it has been an exceptionally bad couple of days healthwise for me and I am experiencing the full fine range of Lyme emotions.

you show off--some of us have to go squat in the woods!

ArtistDi, you have really made me take a hard look on how I am going to handle this kind of thing in the futur. I have two boys--and i know this will come up.

I'm hoping the boys will choice not to go since they have had such a hard time.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Just Julie:

And lastly, I'm a firm believer in if you knowingly do something harmful, you deserve the after effects.
Julie
For the record, clearly this does not say that anyone "deserves" to get Lyme disease. But you seem to take what I've *tried* to get across in my posts and twisted them into whatever your agenda is. You could read ANYTHING into the above sentence, and you seem to be after me for some reason. Back off.

Time to medicate for Lyme rage, perhaps?[/B]

---

Julie, I have no idea what you are talking about. I am not "out to get you" and I don't have some secret agenda. I was responding to the comment you highlighted above. How exactly did I twist it? In a Lyme Disease related discussion you said "I'm a firm believer in if you knowingly do something harmful, you deserve the after effects". I apologize for misconstruing your comment. What did you mean?

As I have stated before, I basically lived my life in fear of another tick bite, for over a year. I kept myself and my kids inside where I thought we would be safe.

Then one day, I realized that by doing this, I was letting Lyme disease take control of our lives and I decided I wasn't going to live in fear anymore.

Living in New Hampshire, where we are surrounded by woods, and wildlife all the time, it is near impossible to avoid the possibility of encountering a tick.

Just Friday, both my kids had ticks on them when I picked them up at school. They got them from the playground at school!!

And on Sunday My husband, myself and my son all had ticks on us while we were in our own yard, doing yard work!

So in our case, we are in just as much danger from a tick, in our own yard or sending our kids to school, then we are by going hiking or fishing in the mountains.

And I can't live in my house forever, or not let my kids play in their own back yard, or let them go to school. I can't live like this. And I don't want my kids to be afraid to play in their own yard...

And if truth be told, in the past 4 years of hiking nearly every single weekend in the White Mountains, I have not "seen" a single tick on any of us. And I check and recheck several times..

But so far this year, I have pulled over 2 dozen ticks off of us, from simply being in our own backyard or from the kids going to school.

SO I guess my point is that, everyone has to make their own decisions. And for us, the decision was simple. We could live our lives in fear, or we could enjoy the few precious years we have together. We chose to live..not in fear.

But that said, I don't question anyone else's decisions, or judge them. We all have to do what is best for ourselves and our children.

And I think our environment plays a key role in how we live as well. I mean if you are in a city, I have no doubt that it would be hard to even think about going into the woods.

but for people like me, who are literally surrounded by woods and wildlife, the decision becomes a little easier..as we are exposed to ticks on a daily basis.

I no longer live in fear of ticks...we take what precautions we can. We use spray, wear appropriate clothing, wear hats, and we do several tick checks every single day.

We even do a nightly ritual where we all strip and check for ticks. While we do this, we all sing:

1,2, 3 I'm tick free

4, 5, 6 , we Hate ticks.

7, 8. 9, tick are NOT a friend of mine!

checking for ticks, is part of our daily life. So we make the best of our situation..

Just like now that my 6 year old daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes, checking her sugar levels and giving her 2 daily injections, of 2 types of insulin, have become part of all of our daily lives.

I respect everyone's opinion and choice. And I truly do understand the fear, as I lived it for over a year, as I looked out my window watching life pass me by...

I guess I am just trying to say, that just because some of us chose to continue to hike or live in the country where ticks also live, doesn't mean that we or our children, deserve to get lyme...

~Lymebrat