-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Greatcod
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To the best of my knowledge, it has not been refuted. Some people deny any connection, but given that Lyme is a tick borne neurological disease, with incapacitiating onset much of the time, it neatly fits the profile of what an incapacitiating biowar agent must do. Further, many of those involved in the discovery of Lyme have Detrick and EIS connections. What SL is saying is that for the first time, the NIH and CDC have mentioned Lyme as a biowar agent to be studied in their new Biowar labs.
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posted
Some of the biggest believers in this also tie it in to chemtrails, deliberate population control, and world government. This makes us look like fruitcakes, and is detrimental to being taken seriously in other areas of tickborne diseases. Until we have hard facts and can separate likely from unlikely, this line of inquiry can only be counterproductive.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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What would you consider hard facts? Was it not a hard fact that two mice from a N.J. lab with the plague are missing? They still don't know what happened to them. How about the Tularemia in the mall, and the mishaps at a Boston lab?
I'm sorry, but there has been too many incidents that have been written publicly, that one would have to think we're fruitcakes!
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Greatcod
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When Dr. Mark K, who singlehandely destroyed the possibility of long term treatment for most Lymies worldwide, showed up as the head of the BU Bioterrior Lab project, I put my doubts aside. I began to see the biowar connection as something others had to disprove. I can understand why some people are embarrassed by or afraid of the connection, but that is no reason for openminded people to abandon the pursuit of more information. Keep in mind that Dr.K was caught red-handed lying about tulermia at BU. He has lowered his profile since then, but it raises questions of his veracity on any matter.
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Southampton Lyre
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The article most certainly has not been refuted, and everything in it is factually verifiable, 90% of it with stuff that's out in the public domain.
quote:Originally posted by tequeslady: I can't believe that articles were written about this and then just removed from what it seems all the news sites.
Unbelievable.
Oh my, my. I see you the MSNBC link to the story about CDC admitting they study Lyme as a bioweapon has been removed. What a shame.
Fortunately, if you go to the site of the San Antonio news agency where the story originated, you can easily find it there. Simply go to www.woai.com and you will see a search box at the top of the page.
Tap in the keywords "Lyme" "bioterrorism" and "San Antonio" (put the latter in between quotation marks so it is accepted as a complete phrase), and you should get to the story in a jiffy.
I'm pasting the story here below for convenience.
I would like to extend my heartfelt thanks to the US Department of Defense, for creating the Internet, a wonderful giant spiderweb of computers, in which, if you look hard enough, you can always find the document you need, even after it has apparently disappeared, lying forgotten in some dusty cyber-corner. Have a nice day, boys, and thanks so much for facilitating and covering up an international epidemic of an incapacitating neurological disease!
Southampton Lyre
UTSA Opens New Bioterrorism Lab LAST UPDATE: 11/15/2005 9:08:19 AM Watch this story... SAN ANTONIO (AP) - A new research lab for bioterrorism opened Monday at the University of Texas at San Antonio.
The $10.6 million Margaret Batts Tobin Laboratory Building will provide a 22,000-square-foot facility to study such diseases as anthrax, tularemia, cholera, lyme disease, desert valley fever and other parasitic and fungal diseases.
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention identified these diseases as potential bioterrorism agents. Fifteen university researchers make up the newly established South Texas Center for Emerging Infectious Diseases.
Earlier this year, the researchers were awarded $9 million in federal funding for bioterrorism research conducted in a smaller lab on campus.
Source: www.woai.com San Antonio News (also distributed via networks of Associated Press and MSNBC).
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Southampton Lyre
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Lou, I feel Greatcod is absolutely right. You are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
Sure, there are kooks out there linking the military role in Lyme science with every crazy conspiracy theory under the sun, some quite far out and not a few viciously racist too.
However, that does not mean that we should keep quiet about the issue just because some nuts are distorting it.
You say "until we have hard facts", we should not even inquire into the subject. Lou, I'm sorry, we HAVE hard facts.
Hard Fact no 1: Associated Press and MSNBC recently reported that CDC study Lyme as a bioweapon (see above).
Hard Fact no 2 : The NIH have a document on their website admitting they have been studying Lyme as a "potential" bioweapon **for years** . (All the while re-assuring the civilian public that Lyme is an easily-cured trivial nothing of a disease.)
Hard Fact no3: Allen Steere was a graduate of the quasi-military Epidemic Intelligence Service (EIS) when he first went to Lyme Ct to study Lyme. The EIS was founded by McCarthyite biowarfaremen in the fifties as an elite Infectious Disease unit that would study both defensive AND offensive biowarfare.
Hard Fact no4: The Connecticut health official who sent Steere in to the job was a member of the EIS too, and in fact Steere quite openly told Polly Murray that he knew him from the EIS.
Hard Fact no 5: Porton Down, the UK's top biowarfare establishment, admitted at an international conference on preventing bioterrorism that they study Lyme disease, and several of the co-infections too, even as the British government was telling Parliament that there is NO research going on into Lyme in the UK at all.
Hard Fact no 6: Both the current (Phil Baker) and the former (Ed McSweegan) Lyme Program Officers at NIH are biowar experts.
Hard Fact no 7: Klempner, as already pointed out, who is personally responsible for the suffering of tens of thousands of people through his dishonest study concluding that long-term antibiotics are not indicated in Lyme, has been a biowar expert for at least 20 years.
He currently heads a state of the art billion-dollar top-security biowar lab in downtown Boston, in proximity of millions of people. This is the lab from which the deadly tularemia microbe recently escaped, as someone mentioned already.
Hard Fact no 7: David Dennis, who as head of Vector-Borne Diseases at CDC told the world that blood tests are 100% accurate in detecting late Lyme, is from the EIS.
Hard Fact no 8: Alan Barbour, the first scientist to culture Bb, (and on whose work all subsequent testing is therefore based), is a biowarfare expert who recently, like Klempner, was put in charge of a state-of-the-art biowar facility (this is in California at UCI).
Hard fact no 9: When Pat Smith, president of the LDA, visited Aberdeen Proving Ground she was told about army helmets that were being developed that would allow a soldier to read information, on the helmet visor, in real-time, about the Lyme infection rate of ticks wherever he was posted.
A satellite database was being set up, and a special portable pcr machine developed so that unit commanders could immediately test the blood of bitten soldiers and relay information about the genotype of the particular strain of Bb immediately , via satellite, to update the database. Kind of strange, for a disease that's "easily cured in 3 weeks (and now we hear, the new mantra is going to be 10 days' antibiotics!)
Hard fact no 10:
Borrelia burgdorferi was on the UNSCOM list of microbes to be monitored in Iraq.
And I could go on and on. I'm happy to verify any of the above if anyone has any questions.
You are right, Lou, that we need to avoid at all costs having extremist nuts as our spokespeople, who tie the military thing into all kinds of non-proven and bizarre or racist theories about who runs the US army or the world.
However, dont throw out the baby with the bathwater! We will never have a future until we get to the bottom of this dirty business. we need to investigate it, get the media on to it, and ensure the whole thing is exposed in all its sordid detail!
In the UK a campaign has recently won the right to a public enquiry into an incident in which Porton Down sprayed zinc cadmium particles (biowarfare simulant) all over the Norwich area in east Anglia. The area, as a result, has twice the national rate of cancer of the oesophagus.
So you see, it is possible to expose these things and demand justice. Maybe its too late to save those unfortunate people who got cancer, but at least their families may get some compensation.
In our case, the suffering is continuing and increasing at an exponential rate, because people are being told there is no Lyme risk in their area, and therefore take no precautions. The CDC themselves recently admitted to nearly a quarter of a million NEW cases in one year in the US. (Their incidence figure was 23,000, but they themselves have said in the past that only a tenth of cases that fit THEIR CRITERIA get reported.)
Those who get Lyme, get no treatment. Mothers may pass it on to their children. How long do we let this outrage go on?
Southampton Lyre
quote:Originally posted by lou: Some of the biggest believers in this also tie it in to chemtrails, deliberate population control, and world government. This makes us look like fruitcakes, and is detrimental to being taken seriously in other areas of tickborne diseases. Until we have hard facts and can separate likely from unlikely, this line of inquiry can only be counterproductive.
posted
I should stop replying to your posts Lisa, because your mind is made up. I don't know if lyme has been studied as a biowarfare agent but the website statement does not prove it, as there is more than one interpretation of those words. The statement was ambiguous.
You said you would verify any of these facts. OK, let's see the UNSCOM list showing lyme disease bacteria were included.
People who study infectious diseases are the natural ones to be involved in biowarfare defense too. The EIS is surveillance of epidemics. Does anyone think we don't need surveillance of epidemics? Granted that some of the people involved at the EIS have been deficient in either ethics or ability or both. This is true of any organization, especially if a lot of money is involved, and does not imply the whole thing is a plot. By doing this kind of sloppy thinking, you are the one who will cause the baby to be thrown out with the bathwater. Not what I want at all. If those guys are in any way responsible for the escape of this germ, or its virulence enhanced by engineering, or they are helping to cover it up, then it needs to be made public and heads need to roll.
I have asked before for something more than opinion on this subject, and what comes back is just a repeat of opinions. Here is your chance to convince me and a lot of other people: Show us the UNSCOM list. That would be a good start. We want the original source document.
If you do not reply to this post with evidence, I am going to write you off as a person with a hopeless fixation. Mixing fact and fiction like this by you and others is irresponsible. This is serious and needs to be handled with utmost care.
[ 02. January 2006, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: lou ]
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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Southampton Lyre
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Sheesh Lou, calm down. Aren't you the guy who said you had a close friend or neighbour from the EIS? And if so, aren't you letting that friendship cloud your judgment here?
I will paste a link to one of the (many) sources of the UNSCOM document below. This one is from the Federation of American Scientists (FAS). Perhaps you know them?
They are a very prestigious organisation of American scientists whose roots are in the original nuclear weapons program. Some of these scientists rebelled against the carnage that was created with their discoveries. Here's a quote from their website:
"The Federation of American Scientists (FAS) was formed in 1945 by atomic scientists from the Manhattan Project. Endorsed by nearly 60 Nobel Laureates in biology, chemistry, economics, medicine and physics as sponsors, the Federation has addressed a broad spectrum of national security issues of the nuclear age in carrying out its mission to promote humanitarian uses of science and technology.
Today, the Federation continues its 60-year exemplary record of achieving meaningful results in strategic security, with research and education projects in nuclear arms control and global security; conventional arms transfers; proliferation of weapons of mass destruction; information technology for human health; and government information policy."
They're concerned about the misuse of biowarfare knowledge: "Biological and Chemical Weapons Control
The goal of the biological and chemical weapons security project is to raise awareness among scientists of their responsibility to prevent the misuse of their research and to promote public understanding of the real threats from biological and chemical weapons."
And they're not hot on US government censorship of documents of public interest:
"Project on Government Secrecy
The FAS Project on Government Secrecy works to challenge unwarranted secrecy and to promote reform of national security information policy and practice. For a quick update, see current news. "
People who study infectious diseases are the natural ones to be involved in biowarfare defense too. The EIS is surveillance of epidemics. ....................
If you do not reply to this post with evidence, I am going to write you off as a person with a hopeless fixation.
Lou,listen up.
While it's true that Infectious Disease experts are the natural people to study biowarfare agents, the converse is **not** true.
By that I mean, it is NOT the natural province of biowarfare experts, who are highly skilled scientists in a field of national strategic importance, to abandon that work in order to spend their time studying trivial infectious diseases, which are hard to catch and easily cured in three weeks' doxy.
You say I just post opinions. Not so. The ten examples above are facts, not opinions.
Lou, whatever your friend/neighbour told you, it's a matter of historical fact, confirmed by the EIS themselves, that the EIS was, and is, an elite unit. By definition, an elite is a SMALL number of people. Every year a very small number of carefully-chosen recruits are allowed into this program.
Having completed their training under the auspices of CDC, they are then sent out to occupy the most strategic ppositions in the US public health infrastructure (and some are sent abroad too).
Why on earth would membes of such a small, highly-skilled unit, with expertise in areas like genetically-engineered anthrax, plague and smallpox, be detailed to spend years studying a "hard-to-catch, easy-to-cure" disease?
Why on earth would the US army invest in such expensive state-of-the-art technology as what was shown to Pat Smith at Aberdeen Proving Ground, to detect Lyme infection rates in ticks in real-time?
Why on earth are men like Klempner and Barbour, now placed in charge of the country's leading biowwarfare units? Surely the DoD would choose someone with a long track record in the area for such a responsible job? Not someone who spent much of their career studying a "hard-to-catch, easy-to-cure" disease that's mostly arthritis and almost never presents as a chronic incapacitating neurological disease?
Unless, of course, that disease was in reality easy to catch, HARD to cure, often chronic, incapacitating, evaded detection on routine tests like MRI and bloodwork, could totally befuddle enemy doctors because of its protean manifestations etc etc?
Sound familiar?
Lou, why are you so abusive to me? Write me off if you like, as a "person with a hopeless fixation".
But are you going to write off the Lancet, a world-renowned medical journal, for publishing on this topic recently?
Are you going to write off Dr Raphael Stricker, of ILADS, who told the press nearly two years ago that Lyme is a biowarfare agent?
posted
Asking for hard evidence of your claims is not abuse. It is puzzling that you would think this, and appears to me that you cannot be relied on to separate fact from fiction. I read the FAS and other documents before you posted them. There is no evidence there of lyme being used in bioterrorism or that it was listed on an UNSCOM document.
I have concluded that your judgement is clouded and you cannot think straight on this subject. You are doing the lyme community a disservice. People who mix fact and fiction make it very easy for the authorities to discredit one element of your claims and make it look like the whole thing is false, even if there is another element that is true. And the general public will conclude that the whole thing is just another conspiracy theory. Don't make it easy to discredit the truth by mixing it with all this other stuff that is easily disproved. I am really fed up with people who will not substantiate their claims.
Don't you understand that having a biowarfare document on the FAS website is not proof that lyme was engineered as a bioweapon? If not, there really is nothing else to be said. Having a mouse escape in Boston doesn't mean lyme is a bioweapon. Having Mark Klempner lie his head off about chronic lyme treatment is not proof that Lyme is a bioweapon. Having cancer-causing chemicals sprayed on Porton Down is not proof that lyme is a bioweapon. Geez!!!!!!!
I have been looking pretty hard for this evidence, in the Church hearings documents and in the reports of the U.S. Chemical Corps and elsewhere. Some of these original sources have been posted on sci.med for anyone else who wants to actually look for evidence, as opposed to just invent stuff. I want the answer just as much as you do, and as Marjorie does, but I am not satisfied with opinions.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
This was my answer? Nothing but my own post quoted back at me?
I give up on you and the others who are making it true that you can't believe what you read on the internet.
Either lyme has scrambled your brains or you are willing to say anything to get back at the people who are responsible for our current horrible situation in trying to get diagnosed and treated adequately.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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Southampton Lyre
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posted
Lou, asking for hard evidence of my claims is not abuse, true. I have posted plenty of hard evidence indicating that Lyme disease is a **militarily sensitive** issue, in gross contradiction to the Steere camp picture of Lyme as an easy-to-cure, trivial disease.
What I found abusive was your remark saying you are going to "write me off" and implying that I'm illogically fixated in the topic. In fact it is extremely logical and necessary for people whose lives have been destroyed by the Steere camp to understand how and why this has come about, and what we can do about it.
And as I have pointed out to you, it is not just I, but also ILADS doctors who have published on this topic.
You say that you read the FAS document and you "There is no evidence there of lyme being used in bioterrorism or that it was listed on an UNSCOM document."
Lou, I really dont have a clue what you are trying to say here.
Is it that you didnt understand that the "Special Commission" referred to at the very top of the FAS page and UNSCOM are one and the same?
Or is it that you dont trust the FAS, a world-renowned organisation, to faithfully reproduce an UNSCOM document without tampering with it?
Well, in any case, as you are not satisfied, I've found you the UNSCOM thing on the website of the UN itself. Is that good enough for your exacting requirements?
Lou, I'm very sorry that i could only find the French version. However,it's not hard to see that this is the French translation of the exact same document as on the FAS site. Also, ther reference number and date matches exactly. You'll notice that in the French version they also use the scientific name "borrelia burgdorferi".
The most relevant paragraphs in that UNSCOM document are these:
"APPENDIX Items to be reported under paragraphs 35 (g) and 38 (a) of the Plan and paragraph 5 of its annex III 1. Risk groups IV and III For the purposes of the Plan, full lists of the microorganisms, other organisms and toxins concerned have been enumerated in two lists, one covering risk groups IV and III (List 1), the other covering risk group II (List 2). These lists are contained in an Explanatory Note which follows on the appendix to this annex.
microorganisms, "Microorganisms" means bacteria, viruses, mycoplasmas, rickettsiae or fungi, whether natural, enhanced or modified, either in the form of isolated live cultures, including live cultures in dormant form or in dried preparations, or as material including living material which has been deliberately inoculated or contaminated with such cultures. other organisms, toxins,
Including purified or crude material. or genetic material"
"``LIST 2 - RISK GROUP II MICROORGANISMS, The items in this list do not conform fully with the criteria for risk group II according to the classification in the 1983 World Health Organization (WHO) Laboratory Biosafety Manual but should be considered as doing so for the purposes of ongoing monitoring and verification activities in Iraq. OTHER ORGANISMS AND TOXINS
Lou, I do understand that the fact that UNSCOM listed Bb among the microbes they felt they needed to monitor in Iraq is not by itself definitive proof that we have been lied to by the US military. That is why I posted all the other supporting evidence, which you keep describing as "opinions", when in fact they are Facts.
It is not my opinion that Steere was trained at EIS. It is a fact. It's not my opinion that Klempner, Barbour, Baker, McSweegan, Benach etc are biowar experts. It's fact.
You're attributing tome things I never said, then using them to knock down the straw man, or straw woman, you created. I never said that the UK's biowar scientists at Porton Down spraying east Anglia with carcinogens proved Lyme was a bioweapon. Nor any of the other things you attributed to me.
I included the Porton Down thing only to show that ordinary people, using the media, parliamentarians/congressmen etc, ** can** challenge the mighty biowar establishment, and win the right to a public enquiry. I thought that was clear.
The Lyme community does not need to say to the US government "You genetically engineered a borrelia organism to create what we are suffering with, then covered it up." All we have to say is this:
"You [ie the US Government and other NATO governments] have been funding and endorsing a set of scientists and doctors who insist that Lyme disease is a trivial easily-cured disease, which is hard to catch and almost never manifests as a chronic, neurological disabler.
Evidence presented by doctors from ILADS and elsewhere, and our own experience as patients , shows that exactly the opposite is the case.
We are aware that Lyme disease, and associated tick-borne diseases, constitute a **militarily sensitive" issue, and that projects undertaken and statements made by the military indicate that "easy-to-cure" school of thought, are completely false. {Here we could insert some of the points I've mentioned, and others.]
We therefore conclude it is likely that for reasons of military secrecy, the public has not been told the truth about Lyme disease -its prevalence, its virulence, its neurological and chronic presentations.
We call for a public enquiry into this issue."
It's that simple. We dont need even need to know what specifically was done to this organism. All we need to do, is point out that the government-backed Steere camp, staffed by biowar experts, have put out an official line for public consumption that is in direct contradiction to the way the DoD deals with Lyme internally.
And that that official line on Lyme has caused mass suffering on a global scale.
posted
At last, something concrete. Very interesting. Still a weak case, though. Thank you for finding this.
There are two parts to this problem:
1. Lyme diagnosis and treatment being botched by the medical establishment.
2. Lyme originally produced/disseminated as a biowarfare agent.
#1 is a good case, lots of evidence. This is the one we have the best chance of selling.
#2 is weak, requires leaps of faith, no real evidence for it, just some possible links and a lot of suspicion on the part of the people damaged by case #1. Plus, there are those 100 year old museum specimens in the U.S. with Bb, and similar old specimens in Europe. You say we don't have to prove this, just open the question up to public inquiry. Isn't that what Lab 257 was attempting to do? I haven't seen anyone following up on his suggestions. If there were any records that could pin the lyme epidemic on a govt research station, they would have been destroyed long ago. So, our chances of finding hard evidence are not good. That is the thing that would take us a step further than lab 257.
So, my conclusion is that we should drop #2 and concentrate on #1. And not confuse the public by mixing these.
Sorry, I want to nail the ----------- too, but I don't think we have enough to go on. Stick with the better case until all of us can get treatment, then we will have the leisure to explore other wrongs that might have been perpetrated.
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Southampton Lyre
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Lou, i disagree. It's not a weak case. It's a very strong one. Hence NIH in a panic (as I've learned today) has now issued a denial saying they made a mistake in their wording, they never meant that Lyme was a biowarfare agent.
Are they that stupid, that they would have us believe that by sheer co-incidence, the CDC made the EXACT SAME mistake in its wording (ie the article that went out on MSNBC)?
Your conclusion is that we have a good case to say that Lyme science has been "botched" by the medical establishment, but not a good case to link it to biowarfare.
Lou, we have been pointing out that Steere et al have botched Lyme science for years.
All that happens, when we present evidence written by capable and experienced LLMDs, is that they then persecute those very LLMDs, and do their best to either drive them out of the profession or worse - to suicide.
Ditto for our good lab scientists and for researchers who discover new ways of detecting Lyme in the blood or tissues of patients the Steerites have dismissed as non-Lyme or suffering a non-infectious "post-Lyme" syndrome.
They can so easily marginalise our doctors by pointing to the great prestige of ratbags like Klempner etc..
It's only when we point out the "amazing coincidence" of the biowarfare background of these leading Steerites, plus the other information I've mentuioned, that the whole picture makes sense.
Then it's easy to understand why those who botch Lyme science are in prestigious positions, while honest doctors and scientists are forced into exile.
How are you proposing anything new here? ILADS , LDA etc have always pointed out, with proper evidence to back the claim, that the Steere camp science is botched.
What has not been done yet, is to point out that it has been ""deliebrately"" botched, which is what all the evidence I've mentioned points to.
And we can do that without providing a detailed molecule-by-molecule account of what exactly has been done to borrelia species.
Southampton Lyre
ps- Your points about museum studies are ground that has been well-covered before. So Bb DNA was found in the 19th century? So what? Plague and anthrax DNA could probably be recovered from MANY centuries ago. Does anyone doubt that plague and anthrax are biowarfare agents?
quote:Originally posted by lou: At last, something concrete. Very interesting. Still a weak case, though. Thank you for finding this.
There are two parts to this problem:
1. Lyme diagnosis and treatment being botched by the medical establishment.
2. Lyme originally produced/disseminated as a biowarfare agent.
#1 is a good case, lots of evidence. This is the one we have the best chance of selling.
#2 is weak, requires leaps of faith, no real evidence for it, just some possible links and a lot of suspicion on the part of the people damaged by case #1. Plus, there are those 100 year old museum specimens in the U.S. with Bb, and similar old specimens in Europe. You say we don't have to prove this, just open the question up to public inquiry. Isn't that what Lab 257 was attempting to do? I haven't seen anyone following up on his suggestions. If there were any records that could pin the lyme epidemic on a govt research station, they would have been destroyed long ago. So, our chances of finding hard evidence are not good. That is the thing that would take us a step further than lab 257.
So, my conclusion is that we should drop #2 and concentrate on #1. And not confuse the public by mixing these.
Sorry, I want to nail the ----------- too, but I don't think we have enough to go on. Stick with the better case until all of us can get treatment, then we will have the leisure to explore other wrongs that might have been perpetrated.
posted
WOW,you have my head spinning! And I don't have lyme! I am working here with a reasonably functional brain, and I can't grasp all of this! All I know is that when I take my daughter to doctors and am met with a condescending attitude when I bring up lyme disease; when our LLMD is hesitant to share her notes with the insurance company as per their request because he/she does not want to attact medical board attention; when I read that lyme is hard to get, easy to treat according to researchers from respected academic institutions; when I see lyme disease show up on bioterrorism lab lists, labs run by those very same researchers; when I read that the federal government participated in funding and developing a vaccine for this easy to get, hard to treat disease, again with the involvement of these VERY SAME men mentioned above, things just don't add up! Proof or no proof, there is clearly enough information to cause every doctor, legislator and citizen to question and reconsider the history and complexity and virulence of this disease . And surely their attitude would change! Surely, they would ask the same questions I am asking: "Why, if it is hard to get and easy to treat, did you find it important to develop a vaccine for it?" Why, if it is hard to get and easy to treat, would it be a potential agent for bioterrorism?" "WHY are medical boards so intent on stopping doctors from treating this disease; and if it is because the treatment protocol is unsafe, then why are they charged with improper diagnosis, rather than unsafe treatment protocol?" "If treatment is not unsafe, then why do you care what these family doctors are doing? Why are you so interested in this small group of doctors when you have much more important things to do?" I am terribly afraid that if we are not able to validate the chronic nature of this disease, we will soon have NO doctors and NO insurance coverage! My modest dream is that one day soon, I will walk into a specialist's office and have him say that he now realizes that chronic lyme disease is indeed a complex illness and that it DOES impact his specialty! Then, maybe he will start trying to find out why and how; and then maybe my wildest dream will come true - a CURE!
BTW, Lou, I would be interested in your take on the "Conflicts of Interest" link on the LDA website.
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posted
Well, I am not ready to agree that lyme has been deliberately botched for the reason you gave. Think you are not giving enough credit to stupidity, ego, reputation protection, money, etc. as motivation for bad conduct. You say we have to tie l and 2 together to get any traction, and I believe it is a mistake to do this, because if they make the biowarfare motivation look ridiculous, the whole diagnosis/treatment issue goes down the drain with it too.
Look at the smirk that Traub's name brings to Plum Island officials. No one yet has proved he even worked there or that borrelia were passaged thru Jewish camp inmates by Nazis. This kind of connection is just too tenuous, and lacking in evidence.
We are not going to agree on this one, lisa, so should probably stop boring everyone else. This is my last word on the thread.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Re this thread, it is the sort of discussion that should be seen on chat shows and news programs every day. Intelligent exchange of ideas re a dangerous disease. Great! Why isn't it happening? Why is the UK absolutely ignorant about Lyme, yet there are 300,000 people with unexplainable ME or Chronic Fatigue? It's obvious why - because there are either too many people to treat, because of the cost, or too many awkward truths that will have to be revealed. Honestly, in Britain the cover-up has been controlled by those in charge and has been so successful that people in the health service have been indoctrinated to think that: 1. It's a very rare disease that occurs only in the US 2. People are grasping at a possible Lyme diagnosis as a way of saying they are ill with something so they can claim Sickness benefits 3. Nurses and doctors have been told to keep quiet about it 4. From my own personal evidence, my GP said that the neurology consultant I'd recently seen was "prepared to give me a diagnosis of having several syndromes, as long as I did not pursue the diagnosis of Lyme". I did ask for further tests to look at my spinal fluid etc, and getting a negative PCR of the CSF gave the neurologist ammunition to say that my next consultation should be with the psychiatrist.
From the Chronic fatigue groups around the UK, there is such a lot of evidence of the government playing down the severity of the disease, which is in fact in most cases Lyme, so that even the ME/CSF patients themselves are convinced that they must try cognitive Behaviour Therapy to make them ignore their pains and brain fog. When this doesn't work, they are made to think that they are inadequate human beings who haven't the will power to get better.
When several governments over 40 years or more have overseen the Myalgic Encephalitis disease spread and grow, when Myalgic Encephalitis could be re-read or interpreted symptomatically as meningo-radiculitis, which is a medic's description of the neuro pains we Lymies get, then the cover-up is obvious, and criminal in my view. (PS patients are encouraged to describe their pains as being like muscle pain, when all along the symptoms are more akin to radiculitis, ie nerve root pain) I've read the book by Harris and Paxman about the details of Britain's chemical and germ warfare since the first world war. No one should under-estimate the lengths which places like Porton Down will go to in keeping their weapons secret, and the sheer evil inventiveness that has been the full-time work of thousands of scientists for many decades. Why are people so worried about publicly supporting Dr Jones? Why are there any reasons not to protest? Because the ignorance of the disease is one of the main aims of the establishment, so that ordinary people will not even begin to ask for treatment, because the infrastructure of social and medical care is already overloaded. Only the intelligentsia and the wealthy will receive proper medical care. It won't do for Lyme to be treated as standard for those with basic insurance, so best that the masses don't even know that it's a pandemic. Why has it been so difficult to get the topic mentioned in the UK media? If there were no reason for a cover-up, then it would have been the subject of "Horizon" programs, and there would be warning signs on the moors and national parks and forests. They don't even want the name to be mentioned in the media, or talked about by the public. Surely that points to having something insiduous to hide? I have Borreliosis, but all the NHS tests were negative. yet a non-NHS test, using a 1000x magnification dark field microscope, has shown long spirochaetes in my blood, with blebs and chains of blebs which must be the cysts or l-forms of Bb. The spiros are too long for syphilis or Weil's disease or any other bug. The Bowen test gave a high count for the l-form of Bb. Yet not a single consultant in my region or at the main London tropical disease hospital will acknowledge that I've got a borrelia infection. These people are being told by someone to ignore the evidence. So who could it be? Who has the power to tell the top specialists to ignore what can be seen with a microscope (this type of microscope was invented or perfected in the late 1960s I believe)?
Posts: 180 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2005
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Southampton Lyre
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by lou: Look at the smirk that Traub's name brings to Plum Island officials. ... This is my last word on the thread.
Lou, I wasn't aware that the officials at Plum Island were smirking about Traub.
They have nothing to smirk about.
Erich Traub was Hitler's top biowarfare scientist. Amazingly, Traub was in the US working on biowar research in collaboration with American scientists right up till the outbreak of WW2.
After the War, he was recruited under the infamous Project Paperclip.
Here's what Michael Carroll wrote in his book "Lab 257 - the Disturbing Story of the Government's Secret Plum Island Germ Laboratory":
"Everyone seemed willing to forget about Erich Traub's dirty past....In fact, the USDA liked him so much, it glossed over his dubious past and offered him the top scientist job at the new Plum Island laboratory - not once, but **twice**....
.."The 1958 secret USDA memorandum 'Justification for the Employment of Erich Traub' conveniently omitted his World War II activities...
" ' I hope that every effort will be made to get him...said Dr William Hagan, dean of the Cornell University veterinary school...
"... In the late 1970's, the esteemed virologist Dr Robert Shope, on business in Munich, paid his father Richard's old Rockefeller Institute disciple [ie Traub] a visit..."
BTW, Shope was one of the scientists who worked closely with Steere in the early days to investigate the epidemic in Lyme, Ct.
Here Michael Carroll quotes John Loftus, a highly respected former Justice Dept official who exposed the nazi past of Kurt Waldheim, the then sec-General of the UN and chancellor Austria. Loftus effectively brought down Waldheim.
But Loftus also wrote about Traub and ticks:
"Even more disturbing are the records of the nazi germ warfare scientists who came to America. They experimented with poison ticks dropped from planes to spread rare diseases. I have received some information suggesting that the US tested some of these poison ticks on the Plum Island artillery range off the coast of Connecticut during the early 1950's...."
-source: Lab 257 by Michael c. Carroll, Harper Collins 2004
You see Lou, i think your friendship with that EIS officer you mentioned is clouding your judgment. No one likes to believe that their friends could be involved in such dirty business as the covering up of the Lyme epidemic.
I resent the fact that your calling me a fruit cake! I don't believe I commented my viewpoint on the matter which you have discussed here!
A member asked a question, and I put articles of news that I had read.
Maybe you should be attacking the source of the information, and not at the ones on here who are trying to help one another! Maybe you might want to comment on these articles. Sorry, if you think I'm a fruit cake for reading the news!
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by lymeloco: lou,
I resent the fact that your calling me a fruit cake! I don't believe I commented my viewpoint on the matter which you have discussed here!
A member asked a question, and I put articles of news that I had read.
Maybe you should be attacking the source of the information, and not at the ones on here who are trying to help one another! Maybe you might want to comment on these articles. Sorry, if you think I'm a fruit cake for reading the news!
LymeLoco Lou didnt call you a fruitcake he said it makes us look like fruitcakes lymies not just you.
Lou said this.
Some of the biggest believers in this also tie it in to chemtrails, deliberate population control, and world government. This makes us look like fruitcakes, and is detrimental to being taken seriously in other areas of tickborne diseases. Until we have hard facts and can separate likely from unlikely, this line of inquiry can only be counterproductive.
And what has been posted is circumstantial evidence Which in a court of law may or may not be used depending on if its hearsay or facts.
cir�cum�stan�tial Definitions:
1. based on inference: containing or based on facts that allow a court to deduce that somebody is guilty without conclusive proof circumstantial evidence.
2. special: related to particular circumstances
3. formal: with a great deal of formality and ceremony
4. detailed: thorough and very detailed { formal}
Your Both right
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
Not sure why a person named lymeloco would resent being called a fruitcake! Just kidding, here. Don't think I called you a fruitcake, certainly didn't mean to. Or maybe you are a lovable, good intentioned fruitcake. Can think of worse things to be called. Like some of the things said of me for wanting a solid case, one that cannot be brushed off by the authorities. If we really had a solid case, who knows, maybe a class action lawsuit would then be feasible. Otherwise, we are just spinning our wheels. Filling the internet with theories.
Look, Michael Carroll had a former gov and former senator writing blurbs for his book. He was on the tube several times when his book came out. I didn't see anything at all coming from this. Just dropped like a stone in a pond, without even a ripple left behind. If a govt installation caused such an epidemic to start, it would not be news that anyone wants known, not the people who might have been involved in such an accident, not the people who are currently involved in such research. There is a lot of money and status involved here. The people who would be best equipped to investigate this are associated with institutions/agencies that would not want the truth to be known, if it turned out to be true.
Yes, I know accidents happen at these places. No matter what they say about redundant safety measures, etc., there is always the human element.I am truly irritated that the response to the anthrax incidents was to set up more labs with these germs, when it is suspected that the germs for the anthrax incidents came from a govt lab. How looney is this?
I am not friends with the EIS, but if you go around making the people who do surveillance on epidemics look like the evil empire, the general public is going to write you off. Epidemics need surveillance. Does anyone not think this is true? Isn't part of our gripe the fact that their surveillance of lyme and other tickborne diseases is so lousy? We want better surveillance, not no surveillance. We want some of those bums to get their comeuppance, not abolish a useful function in public health.
Stop making me the enemy for trying to separate lyme concerns from what will appear to the public like conspiracy theories.
[ 03. January 2006, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: lou ]
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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hopeful123
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3244
posted
wow, you guys!!!
I don't have the brain cells for a heated discussion. Is that a bad thing?
-------------------- some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield Posts: 1160 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
Lou, Now that you are talking to us again, I repeat my question: What do you think of the "Conflicts of Interest" link on LDA's website?
Posts: 422 | From Herndon, Virginia | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
By the way, I really do appreciate this dialogue and everyone's perspective. And I especially appreciate those who diligently research to find all these articles! would love to meet all of you someday when everyone is well and have a lively face to face discussion!
Posts: 422 | From Herndon, Virginia | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Lyre, It's nice to know there is someone like you to do the leg-work. It can be so easy to blow off the things you are saying (as Lou seems to be doing). When these facts are put together they are hard to ignore. I honestly cannot understand why the media is not jumping on this subject. Another thing I don't understand is why doctors in Rhode Island do not treat the disease more aggressively. The state passed 2 laws that would protect doctors and their licences. Why are doctors everywhere so afraid to recognize/treat lyme effectively? If the government is so involved with Bb, what is keeping doctors/AMA from asking questions or dealing with it? They can't all be blind. It's almost like a Twilight Zone situation.
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