posted
Sorry this is a lengthy article but it is written by a practicing doctor and reinforces the fact that the panel to review care standards has already been set up in the stimulus bill and now all that is needed is the "healthcare reform bill" so we can be on our way to rationed care.
This article tells us nothing. All this doctor does is mention titles and various parts of the bill and then puts his own commentary on it.
He does not back it up with facts and or anything substantial that is written in the plan.
He adds innuendo left and right but where is the proof that the plan says what he says it does?????
It doesn't and what is sadder is that people read articles like this and because he comments on the title of a particular sections of the plan, they will believe him.
It would be like me writing the titles of different sections to a book report, but not writing about anything in between or what the book was even about.
These kinds of articles are a dime a dozen, but show us nothing of substance.
Sorry to be critical, but I was really hoping this would actually show us what is in the bill.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
No one really knows what is in phase two of the bill, that is the problem, but they do know what could be set up by this bill
Why do you keep accusing me of not reading? I read, and I did read most of the original bill, problem is that isn't what is being discussed in either the senate or house at this point, they keep adding things every day.
Posts: 130 | From Central NY | Registered: Jul 2009
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Never said you did not read something. I suggested that you read it again, to see where I was coming from. You said this thread was for those who think they know what's in the bill.
Perhaps you have read the bill, but this doctor hasn't obviously, as he eludes to things that just are not so. That is what really irks me.
Perhaps you and I are reading two different articles, but when I read the article you posted all I read is a doctor that states only conjecture. I want him to state fact, which is a big difference. Can you see why that would bother me?
I am not trying to be critical, but it is very important for the truth of what is in the healthcare reform bill to come out, not glossed over and characterized as something it's not.
If you can show me how this particular doctor proves what he says about the bill by not using conjecture, than I would love to have a discussion about it.
But, I don't think it's fair to say that this guy understands the bill when he does not substantiate anything that he wrote. He just states opinion based on what???
I tried to read it a few times and I keep coming back to the same thing. He states nothing factual, rather opinion. Can you see what I mean? That is why I asked to see if you would re-read it.
Peace
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
He is discussing the panels set up in the stimulus bill that will be making our healthcare decisions once phase ll, or the healthcare reform bill, is actually passed
A review panel of non practicing doctors, scientists, drug companies and even insurance companies is not what I want to have determining my healthcare options.
That is what this doc is talking about as is what CALDA mentioned on its site commenting on a WSJ article discussing the same thing as this doc
Posts: 130 | From Central NY | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: Hopefully, the public option is dead.
With public option dead we will get worst of both worlds - on one side we will have for profit insurance companies completely in charge of your access, on the other hand you will have bureaucratic panels determining what care and services you can receive, the IDSA kind, you thought it was hard to get procedures reimbursed with insurance? -Wait till there is federal committee deciding those things.
Insurance companies will welcome this with open hands - it will keep their cost down as now they can deny based on rationing standards by government and at same time reaping record profits. Best of both worlds for them.
Posts: 856 | From MA | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
I guess some are happier with "Stay the Course" kind of thinking.
What I fear is if we abandon the public option, we will also find a way to abandon them ruling against private insurers that won't cover pre-existing conditions and also cover ppl who lose their jobs after being good employees, when they can't find work for many months.
But, hey, we have done just fine with regards to healthcare over the last ten years right?
I guess there will always be those that think the private sectors way of rationing right now is okay and they think nothing of getting less and less, but spending more and more.
And, lets not even talk about the 47 million that have no insurance(that number will continue to grow and grow, costing us all more) and those that don't have an affordable option.
Hey, I have mine, who cares about them??? Sad times indeed.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
The number of unisured is 30 million, not 47 million. (See Obama's address to the nation.)
That is way too many to not have coverage.
Posts: 374 | From United States | Registered: Nov 2008
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kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410
posted
"America's health care system is neither healthy, caring, nor a system" ~ Walter Cronkite
So, back to addressing the problems and coming up with solutions.
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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Persoanlly, I don't care if it's 30 mil or 47 mil. Some can't afford, and some just don't want to have to pay.
Here is the reason for why Obama is now saying 30 million ppl...
So why did Obama make the change? Because he is acknowledging the difference between ppl who don't have any health insurance" and people who "cannot get coverage." Millions of Americans who can afford health insurance choose not to have it, many of them because they are young, healthy and unlikely to need it.
But, the reality of the situation is that 47 million ppl do not have coverage and the ones that play Russian Roulette with their care are costing us all a lot of unnecessary expense.
I agree with you in that the 30 mill is way to many to not have coverage.
What I find interesting is that a lot of ppl don't like helping those with need through a public option, but are fine with those that can afford insurance and yet risk it, costing us all a lot of money when and if they do get sick.
That seems very strange and hypocritical to me.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Everyone here cares. Let's try to keep this in mind.
Private insurance has to make a profit and therefore it doesn't cover every experimental treatment out there. I charge that corrupt govt officials will want their profits too. The insurance company has to be able to actuarially estimate how many dollars will be claimed against how many dollars will be received.
Govt will not care, they will just tax you and me more and they will deny claims and put unsustainable demands on doctors. Goodbye long visits with LLMDs.
Please keep in mind that America is not only broke but deep in debt and the money tree is drying up very very quickly.
Govt run will be limiting too. If you don't think so, check again with the other countries who have govt run insurance. It isn't top of the line medical care. The high quality standard of care offered in America will come down even as the bottom comes up and we will all be left with mediocre care.
More scary to me is that govt can bring down the law on us forcing us and our doctors to participate their way. Insurance companies can only refuse to pay for your treatments. They can't fine you, confine you, take away your children.
Socialism is not cool and I have been stunned at how many people think it is but I am learning about the brainwashing that is occuring in our schools and I am realizing many of you probably have been brainwashed.
The real problem with our healthcare system is the cost of our medical care. That is out of control and is highway robbery.
They do not price medicine according to what it cost them to make it but rather according to what the market will pay for it. So if you need the medicine to control pain or to live, up goes the price.
When someone needs a life saving surgery and their insurance company will not pay for it, why aren't the surgeons, the hospitals, the medical team and the pharmacutical companies willing to cut their fees to a level the person in need can afford?
Why do they just let them die?
Why don't we vilify them right alongside the insurance companies?
I don't know how but I highly suspect and believe that the insurance industry will be just fine either way this plays out. They are not crying the blues about this public option.
Even Canada said they don't see how America is going to afford a public run system because our cost of care is so high.
I spent an entire day once in a Quebec hospital. It was a very pleasant experience. I was attended to quickly (could be because I was on a cruise ship and they had to move me on out). They ran so many tests trying to identify what was causing my pain.
Since I am not a Canadian citizen, I had to pay for the bill myself, and no my insurance company did not cover out of the country care. The entire bill including lunch and a full day of tests came to $330. That was Sept 2004.
What do you think an American hospital would have charged?
This is the source of our medical problems. Not insurance companies.
Get the cost of medical care down to what it should be and you can thumb your nose at your insurance company. You can get the medical care you want because you can afford it and absolutely no one will stand between you and your doctor.
That is the true definition of freedom.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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There is absolutely a lot of truth in what you say and I totally agree that the costs are astronomical all the way around. I agree that the above that you named should be vilified as well.
But IMHO, as long as we live in a society that runs on private insurance and continues to allow the costs that you speak of to go on, it's inhumane to not offer an affordable option to those that need one.
Don't get me wrong, your above illustration is correct and something must be done on that end as well, but until that is done we are stuck with the insurance we have and also stuck with the prices that are charged to us for services.
Until we as a society comes to grips with the fact that health should not be about the bottom line, the greed will continue and the problem will go on.
We are supposed to be a industrialized & civilized society, yet what I see is a greed ridden and stop at nothing society that profits and takes and takes and takes.
PS You talk about your bill in Canada.
Why was it that in Canada you were only charged $330???
In America the cost would have been thousands upon thousands of dollars. Maybe they do have something right up there and perhaps it would behoove us all to learn about the parts of their healthcare system that work well.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Well, I am thinking it is so much cheaper in Canada because the govt pays for it.
I guess that is one good thing about govt insurance.
But the cutting edge technology is here in America.
Our medicine was reasonable too until a 3rd party (insurance) began to pay the bills for us. Then the prices began to rise like a rocket.
You hit it on the head. Greed!
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by luvs2ride: Socialism is not cool and I have been stunned at how many people think it is but I am learning about the brainwashing that is occuring in our schools and I am realizing many of you probably have been brainwashed.
Well I am from Russia, I lived in Soviet Union. Healthcare like in France or Germany, or Japan is NOT socialism. People have no idea what they are talking about by plastering socialism label on everything
quote: They do not price medicine according to what it cost them to make it but rather according to what the market will pay for it. So if you need the medicine to control pain or to live, up goes the price.
See you realize it here -In capitalism the only thing that matters its profit, but fail to see what it leads to. It has no inherent mechanisms to promote competition and offer better services. It only happens when there is competition, but its more profitable to push competitors out of the market, lobby the politicians to keep it this way and then gouge the public for record profits.
This is a model US lives by.Current american system is an oligocorporatism built solely on profit and greed. You do not have free market , every sectors is cornered by several huge corporation ,effectively monopolizing it, there is no competition . And currently government protects that system, while their role should be dismantling and destroy monopolies (imho only role government should have
Posts: 856 | From MA | Registered: Jul 2009
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My DH works for a company that makes a product and if his competitor goes out of business, then my DH's company will have the monopoly.
The people who buy his product are of course happy that my DH's company has competition or else my DH's Company would be able to hold all the cards leaving the purchaser nothing to chose from.
Currently in our health system we do not have choices. Most health insurance carriers are run and operated by only a couple of parent company's. This leaves us forced to accept what they charge for insurance.
Luvs, does raise some excellent points though regarding what we are being charged for services. Her example of what happened to her while in Canada should be a model for everything that is wrong in our country with healthcare.
While there she received basic testing and a days worth of care and was only charged $330, here in the US you and I know the cost would be 3X's - 10X's as high(maybe more).....
I think we are all agreeing on a lot of the same things.
I do agree with you in that people are throwing around titles like socialism etc...in regards to the current healthcare bill, and that is just not correct.
Offering an affordable option is not what defines socialism. I have not been brainwashed and am very aware of what socialism is. Just like putting regulation on utilities was not socialist.
Ultimately though she and I agree that a big bulk of the problem stems from greed and that is where there needs to be more balance in this country with respect to healthcare.
Our country is currently becoming owned by a few big corporations that are parent company's for all of the smaller company's. I agree the government should dismantle them or else they could theoretically own us all and they would in turn have all the power. This is what we did when we put into place the Sherman Anti-trust act and other acts back in the earlier 1900's.
That is not socialism. We were smart enough back then to know that we as a society were not going to be a complete unfettered Capitalist society. I/e we put into place laws to protect children, wages, etc....we have been regulating things for years and years and that is what made us great. As we all know that ultimately greed will rule if allowed.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
quote:but its more profitable to push competitors out of the market, lobby the politicians to keep it this way and then gouge the public for record profits.
That is my whole point. Corruption in government and business is destroying our country. But to think government is going to correct it is like asking the fox to guard the henhouse.
The politians not only get kickbacks from lobbyists. They have ownership in the businesses.
We are the slobs who have to pay for it all.
And Obama is clearly Marxist and the oligarks are perfectly happy to let him march us right into fullblown socialism. What do they care? It benefits them.
Control of us = more power for them.
If we can create more honest competition, I am all for it. If we can elect politicians who will actually enforce regulations on the books, I am all for it.
I have told my mother for years that if you want to bring back the middle class, you have to get rid of Wal-Mart. Of course, I mean all large conglomerations who are choking the small business out of business.
Bigger is not better it is just harder to control. That includes government.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
BTW, if this healthcare reform fails, lets not stop trying to fix our medical system.
Let's go to the source and find out why it would cost 10x more for the same treatment as Canada.
That should not be no matter who pays for it.
And when someone's life is on the line and medical treatment exists that could save it, then it should be criminal to withhold that treatment.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: on the other hand you will have bureaucratic panels determining what care and services you can receive, the IDSA kind, you thought it was hard to get procedures reimbursed with insurance? -Wait till there is federal committee deciding those things.
I'm against the whole thing. We will have a medical nightmare on our hands if the gov is in charge of deciding what's best for us.
Lyme disease being taken care of? Forget it.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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quote:Originally posted by luvs2ride: [QB] BTW, if this healthcare reform fails, lets not stop trying to fix our medical system.
I agree. It needs work.
So if the government cannot be trusted, as the theory goes, what is there to work? We all go and smash the doors of the insurance company? Wild western style perhaps?
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
We fix the corruption in the government. We hold them accountable. Have you written your congressmen/women?
I write them constantly. I have met with them privately and at townhall meetings.
I am not partisan in my efforts. I meet with whomever is in office. I am studying the past voting records of candidates and trying to vote with intelligence.
I will take good men and women from both parties. I would love a new 3rd party who, at least for awhile, would not be corrupted.
If we get involved and get saavy to Washington and demand they do what we pay them to do, things will turn around.
We just need to make the effort to expose and clean out the bad guys.
Where or where is the stinking media? Journalists are supposed to be the watchdogs but they are betraying us.
Specific to medical care, we could start by demanding an explanation of why our costs in America are so much higher than in other countries and why a law was passed that stops us from purchasing the exact same medications at a much lower rate in other countries.
And when they talk of lowering medical costs by reforming tort law (medical malpractice suits) call them on the carpet for wanting to do it by capping how much you or I could be awarded if a doctor botches us. Why do they always take from the little guy?
Make them talk about changing the way attorneys (their peers) are compensated. Currently the attorney gets a percentage of the earnings. Usually 25% if settled out of court and 33% if it goes to court.
This way of compensation has created the most corrupt legal system. There are attornies who make fortunes as personal injury lawyers. They inflate claims, driving up the settlement so they earn more money. Meanwhile, the victim usually comes up short after paying the attorney, the medical bills and the expert witnesses used to validate their case. Not much settlement is left for them.
Let's stop that practice and you will see settlements drop dramatically which should reduce malpractice insurance premiums.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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I am still confused with your back and forth statement - do you or do you not want some degree of government's "control(ing) our life"?
Because sounds like you now want the government to do something so that medical cost can come down. But previously you seem to claim that Obama is Maxist because he wants the government to have control over the matters that would take your freedom away.
Please make up your mind before we continue to hit all corners of this discussion. The ball is flying all over the place.
posted
Looks like we have some people in here that are greedy of the insurance companies. They only think that the other person is greedy and not themselves.
Life is not zero sum, many left leaning people never get past kindergarden. If jack takes the biggest piece of the cake, then everyone else is left with a smaller piece. It's not that way. In the real economic world, cake is always being created... just so happens the ones that usually created the most, eat the most and rightfully so.
If you hate the insurance companies profits so bad, make your own insurance company and compete with them. If not, lets make them compete with each other better.
1. Government needs to let insurance compete across state lines. 2. Government needs to allow pharmaceutical companies export their drugs/medication here to the US more freely. 3. Government needs to loosen taxes on doctors, hospitals, insurance, and clinics incomes. (The costs are passed to us) 4. Government needs to let doctors choose freely where doctors can work and how they can work. 5. Tort reform
I wish we could give these things a try first. It's guaranteed to lower costs and allow more freedom. Voting for government to get more involved is like selling someone a rope that they will hang you with, it's ignorance.
LLMD's offices are already getting raided by the FBI, think it will get worse or better with bigger government?
Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
Across state lines does not work for many reasons. Lets say I live in a Large metro town in CA and want to buy a plan from a company in idaho.
How likely is the price going to be the same for the same coverage premium? Just a thought.
Also since we live in a country with so many different states that have multiple rules, regulations and laws, how would it really change anything?
Are we ready to give up our state borders and state and local government/rules/laws etc?????
People seem to think that if you allow over state line purchasing that you are going to get an incredible deal, the reality is that over state line deals will still take into account where you live, what your local laws are, how much your local doctors and hospitals charge etc...
It's not as cut and dry as many think and is very hard to administer.
Buster, I think most here agree that what the doctors, hospitals and pharmacy are charging is outrageous and most everyone would also agree that this is not just about insurance rates being high.
But, you must admit what the insurance agency's are charging is an outrage and high and the premium prices are rising far quicker than the rate of inflation.
Of course the other issues need to be worked on. But, who do we think has the power to make that happen??? The government.
How sad when an elderly couple go to the doctor and are written a scrip that when they go to pick up the two little bottles of medicine they are charged $278 because their plan does not cover what the doctor has ordered.
Not only do we pay outrageous prices for our coverage which in many cases we don't get much in the way of services or medicine, we also are being over charged by the pharmacy, and the services themselves.
Tell me how the free market has not had ample opportunity to compete(outside of the state line issue) for the last 40 years???
How much time does the free market get before we do something. We are being robbed.
FYI: Here is a list of the major health Insurance Agency's in this country. Most of these parent company's offer insurance in many different states and administer the plans from the corporate level.
Even if you allow over state lines sales, they are the same company's you are currently getting your coverage from. Do you really think the rates will go down all that much???
These company's have had years and years to compete and still are raping us of services and rationing us in regards to what we can have and can't.
We of all people know this firsthand.
Again, I agree that we need to go in and make the prices that the medical community charges come down, but then you have those saying they don't want government involvement.
The prices will not come down on their own. As long as medicine is profit based, the prices will not come down without intervention.
A major problem with our healthcare system in regards to insurance is that it's set up for "HEALTHY" people, not sick ppl.
WE are a sick country with a lot of illness and problems. This system is set up to be about the bottom line, not our healthcare.
If you are okay with your health being about the bottom line, that is your prerogative, but that formula has shown to ultimately only give you less and less as you spend more and more.
Aetna American Association of Retired Persons American Family Insurance American National Insurance Company Anthem Blue Cross and Blue Shield Assurant Blue Cross and Blue Shield Association Cigna Fortis Golden Rule Insurance Company Group Health Cooperative Health Net HealthMarkets Humana Inc. Independent Health Intermountain Health Care Kaiser Permanente LifeWise Health Plan of Oregon Premera Principal Financial Group Regence Group Scott & White Shelter Insurance Companies Thrivent Financial for Lutherans UnitedHealth Group Unitrin Wellpoint
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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