lpkayak
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Member # 5230
posted
i may be way in over my head with etta my 18 wk old shih tzu mix
i thought it was funny last night at her first puppy class when the instructor declared her the pack leader of 5 dogs...her 5 lbs and the others 15, 20,30 and 40 lbs
i dropped her for her first grooming today at a very experienced groomer-one who does many shih tzus. they have difficult coats.
1 1/2 hrs later the groomer called me ans said she couldn't groom her. it was only a mini groom-around eyes and butt and ears and nails. but she gave her the bath and couldn't cut anything. etta kept attacking the scissors.
this groomer said it wasn't that she was coming too late for her first groom. it was her personality.
she told me etta might need to be anesthisized to be groomed. i can deal with an oral tranquilizor.. but i don't see myself having a dog that needs to be put to sleep to get groomed every month
i have a call in to the trainer to see if some private lessons will help. but i am kind of upset about this.
my schnauzers were so tuff about protecting me but they were gentleman when groomed.
any ideas out there? she is 1/4 maltese and 1/4 yorkie and 1/2 shihtzu. the trainer says all three breeds tend to be alpha and can have this problem. i hope it is something that can be fixed. it will be unhealthy for her to not get groomed
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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merrygirl
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I am sorry to hear this. The groomer is likely correct that this is your dogs personality. It may be possible to desensitize her from the scissors and clippers, but its going to take ALOT of work and attention. You could try acepromazine to sedate her but that is just masking the problem. and you may need to have her groomed at a vet.
I wouldnt give up just yet.
But if she starts trying to be the leader of you or other people, you need to nip that in the butt pronto! make sure she doesnt bully you or others.
When she does get groomed make sure its short so you can go longer in between, thats all I can think of at the moment.
Posts: 3905 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
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lpkayak
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posted
thanks merry. you have helped me before when my schnauzer was not well.
the trainer called me back and said yes-she was alpha of the other puppys-but she saw nothing in etta that she thought was not trainable.
she gave me the name of another groomer with more experience. (before becoming a dog trainer this woman was the groomer of all the local dogs who gave groomer problems)
the new groomer is willing to try-but the first grooming will be short in time and not do her whole coat. only the little tummy hairs have mats right now and they are very small.
hopefully she will have her eyes, butt , ears and nails done and some of the tummy problems.
we sheduled her next wed-a slow day she said.
i hope this works. i am ok with an oral tranq if we really have to do that...but the trainer says she really doesn't think that will be necessary---i hope she is right
so far the puppy has only gotten snarly with me when i picked her up to bring her in from outside when she wanted to stay out. the trainer has told me not to pick her up unless i absolutely need to (to get in car seat ) and to keep her on leash a lot. i'm doing that and she hasn't been snarly so far.
the trainer said to use the "leave it " command if she snarls. we learned that last night to use when ever the behavior is wrong...not just picking up something.
so i will do that now.
i find some of the new learning hard becasue of my fogginess. i hope i can do it. i think i need to limit what we do until i get it down. and biting is the priority .
thanks again. its good to know you are still on lymenet if i need you!
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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merrygirl
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posted
I think another groomer is a good idea. I like that idea.
One thing that struck me about your last post is that simply not picking her up to avoid the biting behavior doesnt sound like a good solution to me. Its like the dog gets her way, and now she knows heck if I just snarl and snap I wont get picked up. So if I snarl when I get something taken away then shell leave me alone. you get the idea.
You should be able to pick up your dog. Its not like she is an 80 pound lab, she is a lap dog. I would strongly think about that advice.
I am certainly no dog trainer. I am better with medical stuff. I am glad to be of help. Hope it all works out!! Pm me anytime.
Posts: 3905 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
this trainer seems to think there is something about having the dog on a short leash that makes the dog know i am the pack leader
it is working. i do pick her up to put her on grooming table and also on my lap at a few times duing the day when i watch tv. sort of routine.
no problems with that.
it is clearly when she wants to stay outside and i got in the habit of picking her up to bring her in. (its easier) but with her "heeling" in at the end of a short leash she doesn't try to bite
i see your point...but this getting into the dogs brain part is a little complicated
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Geneal
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10375
posted
Very important for you to establish yourself as the alpha.
I went to dog training with my 100lb dog who was testing my position in the pack.
It worked wonders.
Keep on working on her behaviors.
It is a lot of work, but so worth it.
Hugs,
Geneal
Posts: 6250 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2006
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lymeinhell
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Too bad you didn't get the puppy to socialization classes earlier - it really does work wonders.
I took my pit puppy starting at 10 weeks and she is the most socialized dog I have ever had. Strangers, croweds and other dogs (even crazy yapping ones) don't phase her in the least.
Snarling when you pick them up = control issues. You definitely need to nip that in the bud now. Snarl back if you have to.
You also should get in the habit of frequently handling her toes and ears and tail, and holding on to her collar. That way, its not such a flip out when they go to the vet or groomer and they try to clip their nails or groom. (Soooo glad the trainer told me about that one).
-------------------- Julie _ _ ___ _ _ lymeinhell
Blessed are those who expect nothing, for they shall not be disappointed. Posts: 2258 | From a better place than I was 11 yrs ago | Registered: Sep 2003
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
thank you. i am very happy i am hooked up with a good trainer
i wanted to get her out to classed sooner but there were problems getting all her shots...she was very small and the breeder didn't do it right
i did socialize her with ppl and things right from the beginning and she is mostly very sweet and loving and good - everyone loves her. she has nevver tried to bite anyone but me and then the groomer yesterday
i can tell this will be hard work for me but i am aware how impt it is
thank you all.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
kayak .. Do you get the Animal Planet channel?? They have several shows on problems with training difficult cases. You can learn a lot.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
yes-i get it...but i never seem to be there at the right time. even hd saves some of the programs but i don't have time or cog to watch it all and takewhat i need
i went on line about what cesar says about small dog syndrome which is what is going on
all trainers sort of disagree a little (kinda like llmds) so i am happy i found someone who seems very good close by
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Hi, Another resource is a book by Brian Kilcommons, called Good Owners, Great Dogs. You can probably get at the library or a used one from Amazon.
It is easy to read, and has many good stratergies for training.
A different groomer and shorter time period at the groomers sounds good too! Just think when you take a child for a first hair cut they are usualy kicking and screaming! And not every dog gets along with every groomer, the groomer could be nice, but your dog just may not be comfortable.
Your trainer sounds good. You dont' want you and your dog to have to use alot of different commands, you will both be confused! Dogs hear the tone of your voice and look at your body posture for guidance.
And I think being agressive with her will just make it into a competition with her, she will just keep it up.
Leave it is a good command for alot of purposes. It is telling her you are the boss, she needs to stop what she is doing and listen to you. Did the trainer tell you to reward her when she gives you the correct response?
I have two beagles who are notoriously disobediant!! And stubborn! It is just their breed. But they are wonderful, awesome companions, who I wouldn't give up for anything.
Another thing to think of is maybe the dog had pain when touched in that area. Maybe she had an injury or bite and is tender and that is why she snarled.
Grace
Posts: 27 | From central nj | Registered: Mar 2011
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kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410
posted
Not able to read what others wrote, but the first thing I thought of is the show on animal planet...the english lady
And working at home with grooming tools...but not sure how to go about that....don't have to groom her...just get her use to scissors gently
At one time, I know the web site for the English Lady on Animal Planet. If I figure that one out I will let you know.
You use to be able to ask questions.
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
Tamar Geller
Don't recall how I heard about her but do recall she has a book out called: 30 days to a well mannered dog.
Co founder of a non profit group for dogs
She is on FB
While in training two week Training for service dog, I learned that you take a bit from each trainer and then when you get home find which one works for you and your dog...
...Don't recall how many trainers they had there but do recall they all had different ways of doing things
...The founder of the organization said she always had the last word but did acknowledge each trainer had her own way of doing things.
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
"While in training two week Training for service dog, I learned that you take a bit from each trainer and then when you get home find which one works for you and your dog..."
that sounds like really good advice and what i am having to do already
the new trainer really does not like treats...and i agree...but when it is something so serious i think i need to use them to get the behavior so i can pos reinforce it
i have been able to switch over from treat to only praise a number of times once she really gets the behavior
for ex...when she was 2-3 lbs it was really hard to get "down" she was so low to ground and my arthritis etc
but at night for about two hrs we usually sit in chair kinda quiet. her with a special chewey toy and me with tv or book
i am still able to brush and comb her back and sides at that time
later When she is real sleepy i can soft brush her tummy and inside legs and cut out any mats
so at that time i used treats to ask for "down"
she repeatedly would lie down on the arm of the chair-but it was a real down - nice and streight -i cant spell streight....gees...anyway
she was very consistent with the down there so then i moved to the grooming table i have set up and we did it there-it took awhile...no chair arm...she had to figure that out and then we finally got to doing it on the floor and now she does it without a treat.
so i think it is right to use what works within reason...and i really appreciate you posting that
with my foggy brain i often get down oN myself about not being able to follow directions..esp ones with multiple parts...and that is what is going on here-after the first puppy class we had handouts to do about 5-7 commands.
the hardest is to get the dog to sit for a minute three times in a row
we are soooooo far from that...altho i am extending her sitting
but now all my energy has to go into this alfa-i'm the pack leader-snarly-bitey thing
i remember being so worried kris would bite someone because he was so into protecting me. but i don't think it ever occured to him to bite me. he did by accident once-trying to get at a toll lady...i put my arm up and he got me. i yelled at him and he cowered in the farthest corner of the car until we got home.
anyway-i know this is a lot for you to read kam but mostly i am saying THANK YOU
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
So interesting to see your post about your puppy problems. I can certainly sympathize as I am going through a similar problem with a 5 month old toy poodle.Though I have raised and trained dogs and cats before,doing so with Lyme, resulting in fibro and Chronic fatigue really presents a new set of problems. I diffenitly think you are headed in the right direction with getting advice and as much traing as you can afford.I have read the advice you have gotten here and it sounds good and is helping me as well. My problems with Gidget started with play biting and mouthing,Now she is wanting to take charge, refusing to come and a few other behaviors I am not happy with or physically able to handle, like chasing her down:). Being consistant, which is absolutely necessary is also hard to do with these illnesses.Do you have any of these problems and how do you manage them with your illness? I haven't posted here in a while. I was a regular when I was diagnosed 8 years ago. I check in now and then.Glad I checked today. Hope it helps to know someone really understands. Pets can bring so much companionship and joy to our lives. The puppy stage can be very hard work with some but you are so right, it is worth it to have a good relationship with them.
Posts: 11 | From Kingston, TN. | Registered: Apr 2007
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
i will pm you-maybe we can support each other
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
All this is making my border collie look like a piece of cake to handle! Wow! (would love to still have that guy!) He was a jewel.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
I was a groomed for many years. Iyou should be made aware that clipping your dogs coat will ruin the qyality causing more undercoat to grow back.
It is best to leave the coat natural but if you like the looks of the clipped dog and have the money to invest getting it done every six to eight weeks then go ahead and do it. Just don't look back.
You dog needs to be conditioned to the grooming process which you can do at home. she will respect you better than a stranger hopefully. She does not need to be put to sleep or tranquiied if you take th time to teach her the scissors are harmless.
Put her on a table and teach her to stand politely for brushing. Start with just few minutes, lots of praise and a treat when she is behaving well. Timing is critical, Reward only when she is doing the right thing. You can use clicker training using a cluck of your tongue to alert her to that is what you want.
Play with her nails as though you are clipping them. When she is comfortable with all of this try getting the scissors out. Use approach and retreat so you do not overwhelm her. Take your time.
You will also need to condition her to a blow dryer and something that vibrates like the clipper. Don't fight with her but don't give in to her either. You have to take things slowly .Af little bit every day.
I am using a difficult keyboard with no glasses so hope this does not have too many typos.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
no typos i saw but a lot of what you said is what the trainer said...she was the groomer for difficult dogs before she was a trainer
she is working with the 2nd groomer
i have done a lot and the groomers have done a lot of what you said but for some reason she snaps and "exhibits abnormal behavior" this is from very experienced dog ppl
she had a great day at daycare today.. good bunch of dogs...all a little bigger than her but all very gentle and then playful whe she was ready
the trainer and groomer are going to work together
i hope this works out.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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It is my business...(or was, before this Lyme and co's took over my life!) I have had to rehabilitate dogs that were going to be put down due to different types of aggression.
Go on line and purchase a canister of "Direct Stop" It is marketed to use for safety on aggressive dogs, but it is onle CITRONELLA - not harmful in any way to the dog, does not hurt the dog's eyes or anything like that. It is a strong citrus smell which dogs hate. It works as the perfect deterant to difficult canine behavior - albeit, negative consequence to bad behavior but causes no pain to the dog. You just have to be very consistant and each time the dog looks like he's ready to bite or act in an aggressive way you hit the button and squirt him on the nose. It is mainly a sudden distraction which takes the dog out of the stressed/aggressive mode. And with the dog's extreme high sense of smell the citronella really bugs him for less than a minute. Soon, he will associate whatever behavior you are trying to eliminate with the citronella spray that he hates.
It works like a charm if you are 100% consistant. Means you gotta catch him each time before he actually snaps or preferably when he is thinking about it! And, I promise, it does not hurt the dog at all. It's the same stuff they use in those "humane" bark collars or training collars as an alternative to the shock collars, which do hurt the dog. I would purchase a couple of canisters, they are pocket sized to take with you at all times.
Beagle
Posts: 348 | From MA | Registered: Dec 2010
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
wow beagle. that sounds like a great product. i might really help at th groomers.
the 3 times she has attacked me there woul not have been time to spray. all 3 times were different and very quick. i have changed my behavior
-i brink her in on leash not by bending down and picking her up tha is when she went after me the first time
if there is something in her mouth she wants bad enough t growl t me i offer her a treat and she drops it
altho i have to say that at least 3 times in the last 24 hrs she had bad stuff in her mouth and i just matter-of-factly took it out with out a problem
the problem is not everything in her mouth...just what is really important to her (my hair tie)
the other time she went after me i was giving her a bat and since i am now working with groomers i haven't done that...but i will get the stuff and ask them to work with me on it
its kind of funny you talk about a citrus scentand dogs not liking it
i have ants in my kitchen. she eats them. i know i cannot spray with any thing that wil make her sick so i got some stuff grom healthfood store and it i orange peel extract and smells really strong citrus
so she has recently smelled it pretty strong
it was not really associated with me telling her no about anything...but she sort of had a personality change overnight and has been very lovey to me...and so far not attacks or growls or any of that stuff
wierd.
thank you for that suggestion
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
ok-i have too many puppy posts on here-but i want all of you who have been so helpful that things are going pretty good
yesterday we had a session with the trainer. she used to be a groomer. so she did a mini grooming on etta-since shehas been the worst with the groomers and the tainer said there is NOTHING WRONG WITH HER. she is just doing normal puppy behavior.
the trainer thinks the groomers were just in a hurry (to make more money faster) and they pushed the puppy too far and she became aggressive.
someone on here suggested that so i guess you were right on
i also watched some cesar shows and the part that stuck with me was to just be quiet and firm and know i was alpha...and i think that has been my attitude recently when i have had to take things out of her mouth. she has not gone after me in a long time
at the trainers we gave her the hair tie that i was taking from her the one time she attacked me. the trainer just had me say "drop it" (she knows drop it from fetching) -i had to say it over and over for about 2 minuts...to me it was a very long time but the trainer said it was fine. she did drop it and she never attacked me---so progress.
she is doing really well at day care. they love her and i am pretty sure they gave her a mini bath the other day cuz she came home so clean. they did not say she was bad for the bath like the other groomer said.
the day care also does grooming and they have mini-mod-and max. so in a few weeks i will have them do a mini groom and hope it goes well.
this time i am not going to warn them that she gave the other groomers trouble. i'm not sure if they were looking for a problem when it wasn't really there
but thank you all for talking me thru this...and watch her on facebook! (all seasons pet resort in freehold nj)
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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