Kudzuslipper
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
I have never known a group of so many to fight so hard to feel better. Who never gives up. So I am torn on this question on our ballot on assisted suicide. In general, I am for a person's right to die if they are in so much pain they don't want to live and they don't have long to live anyway.
But here's my concern,do you trust your doctors,or medicine in general to help you make that decision? and what has to happen to protect that it stays your decisio?
How does even a lyme person get through that 6 month mark, and then a year,and even the 16 month mark where you are miserable and don't see an end. But we know for so many it does get better.
Hope this is not crossing that political line for debate. I truly want to hear others thoughts...but if it does,moderators feel free to delete.
Posts: 1728 | From USA | Registered: May 2011
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- Lyme does not qualify as a diagnosis for this.
There is no chance that any doctor will agree to this just due to pain and suffering. This is only for those who are the most terminal of the terminal, usually those admitted to some kind of hospice program first.
Beyond that, believe me, if you vote for this in your state and it becomes legal, no one is going to force you or even make it easy, even if down the road you become infirm, in hospice, etc.
I've seen several family members and friends hold on far too long, in excruciating pain, debility and sorrow. Their bodies shut down long before they actually let go. This is not what anyone wanted. To see them endure the torture was beyond words.
Anyone who thinks pain meds actually work all the time is also mistaken. Once the liver and kidneys start to fail, so will pain meds and the resultant stress on the liver and kidneys cause more pain.
Add to that, once a certain pain dose is reached, coma is very likely. That happened for my mother.
It seems you may have two questions:
Will I be forced? No. I guarantee that.
Will proper "checks and balances" be in place. Yes.
Will I have more control over my life and my death? Yes.
and
Will my vote help ease severe pain for others who have the right to make this choice for themselves? Yes. I truly believe this.
My best friend utilized this method a few years ago in my state where it is legal. It was HER choice. No one forced her. If anything, they waited too long to help her - and forced her to jump through hurdles that were inconceivable for someone in her state.
Even in hospice program, at the last minute, she was forced to appear IN PERSON, in a 2nd doctor's office to sign a form they had forgotten to have her sign during her first visits. She had to be carried in by friends, literally, for the final arrangements.
They should have visited her at her home. They should have helped her more but that was part of the law, I suppose, making it as difficult for the patient as possible. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Kuduzu, I absolutely believe in a patient's right to die. My friend from high school Gabriella was given a diagnosis of terminal bone cancer when she was 23 years old. She chose to end her life with family and friends (including myself) surrounding her. It was -as strange as this sounds-a beautiful death because it was painless AND her choice.
I believe a patient's right to die is ABSOLUTE. Keebler is correct though when she states that lyme is not a diagnosis that qualifies for assisted suicide. Jess.
Posts: 651 | From ct | Registered: Sep 2011
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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posted
- Back to keeping control if you choose this method.
There is nothing to stop anyone from putting a pillow over your face at some point. You either trust those in your inner circle (friends, family, doctors) or you don't.
You have your Advanced Directive and Will all in order and you plan out various scenarios so that those close to you will know your wishes.
But, ultimately, it's who you choose as your legal representative (if you can't act for yourself) that matters.
Regarding assisted end of life decisions, YOU have to be able to make all the final actions. Someone can hand you a glass and the medicines but YOU have to be able to administer them to yourself.
Again, if you have concern, that is solely about whom you allow to be close to you.
The law would be there to protect those who suffer, to give them and you control. And you have control over who you let into your circle. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Kudzuslipper
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posted
Hi Keebler and Chastain thank you for your thoughtful responses. Keebler, I am for end of life choice. What I question most is the medical practice ready to take this on?
In a world of 10 minute visits, Does a doctor really know a person well enough to know if this is what they really want? even given they are terminally ill.
Is making the request twice 15 days apart enough to totally weigh the decision?
And even though it is ultimately the persons decision to take the medicine, could there be some sort of self guilt/pressure to go through with it simply because I put my family through this decision, the dr. agrees, it must be the right thing.
and of course does it open the door for pressure to ends one own life in terminal, costly situations. I don't think that is a fear now, but down the road.
you do hear many stories of people who are given 6 months to live. And 15 years later they are in remission and living a happy life. But at the time they are told they have 6 months to live they may be in miserable pain and wonder if it is worth the treatment.
I'm just saying... there is another side even for someone who supports assisted suicide in theory.
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poppy
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posted
I think lyme patients who get to this point are likely to be diagnosed with something else that was probably caused by the immune effects of lyme. There is probably no way to prevent any wrong things from happening in states where this is legal. However, it seems to me that people ought to have some out other than guns and jumping off cliffs. I heard someone with terminal lung cancer ask why she could not get help ending this situation which medicine could not fix, when dogs could be put down when terminally ill and suffering.
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AuntyLynn
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posted
Exactly my thoughts, Poppy.
This is a tough ethical question. But most believe it is ethical and righteous to assist a suffering beloved pet, while we recoil from doing the same for people.
I was really surprised to learn that this issue was on a State ballot, just a few days ago. It's such a tough decision.
I guess, since I wholeheartedly believe in the expansion of civil rights, I would likely vote for the people who might really want, or feel they need, this option.
Posts: 1432 | From New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2012
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Keebler
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posted
- It's about choice - whether I have been declared so near death and I choose to make my peace with that is no one else's business.
It should be my decision.
Q from a post above: is the medical practice ready to take this on?
Not all doctors will work with people who are interested in this choice.
Most PCPs, GPs will have ZERO to do with this as it would be the oncologists and other specialists who have the patients who are near the end of their lives. By that time, the GP has very little to do with medical prescriptions.
If an oncologist (or other specialist) has not signed up to be of help in this area, you would know that early on, just ask.
Those who are interested to offer their help in this way will have gone through specialized training.
Again, this is not for us to sit and figure out all the ways it could go wrong but up to us to help those in pain face grueling choices in the most kind and humane ways, within THEIR control and it's up to them to put the steps of the pain together as that time might approach. IF they want. IF, when, and how.
In my state, in over 15 years that this act has been in place, it has been working just fine - and it's just one reason that I would never move to another state that did not have such a measure.
Death with Dignity Act - Oregon 1997 -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- IMO, you are more likely to be "popped off" by too much acetaminophen as it's passed out like candy in hospitals.
[Google: acetaminophen, hospital deaths]
Most often, by accident, of course and ignorance at the way it can block liver function and then all the backlash of that (coupled with the general ignorance regarding liver & kidney support methods) but, still,
there are plenty of other things that can go wrong - whether by accident or ill-intent.
If you fear nefarious actions if a state passes a "Death with Dignity" act, just realize that there are many ways those with ill-intent can quicken the end for just about anyone. So many ways.
"Death with Dignity" has tremendous safeguards and, again, it's up to the patient. -
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Kudzuslipper
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posted
I truly appreciate all the info Keebler.
Posts: 1728 | From USA | Registered: May 2011
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posted
If an animal is suffering we put them down and everyone says "you did the right thing" Why should it be any different for people? It's the person that decides, it's not like other people make the decision for them.
Why should people and their families have to suffer needlessly? The sick person is terminal, why can't they leave this world with dignity?
The way it is done now is the people refuse food and water. It's the same thing, it's just long, drawn out and painful for the person and painful for the family to watch.
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MADDOG
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posted
I think all should have the right to die at the point were nothing can be done.And pain is real bad.Or when gasping for every breath.
I was mad when they locked up Dr Gavorkian.
MADDOG
Posts: 3996 | From Ohio | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
I had a close friend who chose to end his life recently. He was 96 years old and suffering from a weak heart that was only going to get worse. I think he made the right decision, based on the surety of a worsening prognosis accompanied by suffering, and also his sense that he had lived a full life.
So, for the contrary - if there is any chance for improvement, any chance to lessen suffering while alive, any chance to have some quality of life or to work towards that goal, then no, I wouldn't advocate ending one's life.
With Lyme and co's you never know. You can feel really bad, but be able to turn it around with the right treatment. So I don't think anyone should be hasty in this regard.
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randibear
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posted
i agree. why do we do mercy killings for our pet and not a human? when my rand had congestive heart failure, the vet told me her quality of life was over, that she would be pain, incontinent, and her meds would be very expensive. i didn't care, i wanted her saved, but in the end, i relented.
i still grieve to this day, but i know i made the right decision.
my mom suffered also from chf and lingered for two weeks. the nursing home would not feed her so all she had was a breathing tube. she looked awful and i still believe she was aware even tho they said she was in a medical induced coma.
it wasn't right. so i believe in suicided either way. who am i to say to another that they must suffer a horrible or lingering death?
i would like to go with dignity and grace and hope that others respect that.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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Keebler
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posted
- Kudzuslipper,
How did the "Death with Dignity" measure vote turn out?
Not sure in how many states this might have been on the ballot but I see that, in Massachusetts, it did not pass. Narrow vote, though, at 49% to 51%.
My guess is that it will be on the next ballot as it's an on-going conversation. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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The 3 times over the years that hubby attempted suicide he woke me up each time and told me what meds he had taken so I could take him to the ER.
During his month in the ICU on the ventilator the docs kept asking me about changing his code status and palliative care. I was not going to let them make me be the one to turn off the machine when they were not doing nearly enough to help him and when the nurses and respiratory therapists kept telling me that they felt he still had a chance.
In the end his heart failed and I knew at that point that there was no point in shocking him to try to bring him back. The fevers had come back and his WBC had gone back up. I had told the pastor that morning that I would know when it was time to change his code status.
Also wondering how the vote turned out.
Bea Seibert
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hiker53
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posted
I can handle withdrawing care in certain situations or having a DNR, but I believe God is the one who brought us into this world and He is the one who should decide our time of death.
Just my humble opinion and I hope I never have to face such a situation with a loved one or myself--my views might change then.
Hiker53
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 8890 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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poppy
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posted
It was defeated in MA.
Hiker, facing it yourself or with a loved one is what makes a difference in opinion on this subject.
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Kudzuslipper
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posted
Keebler, alas it did not pass in my state. And I did end up voting yes. I wrestled though. I suspect it will be on the ballot again. And I suspect next time it will pass.
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Kudzuslipper
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FRONTLINE has done great films on the topic in the past.
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Catgirl
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posted
It's a shame it was defeated here (MA). It must have been the false/negative ad. Seniors believe all the propaganda (at least the ones I know do).
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
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