Topic: Permethrin - so let me get this straight...
LisaK
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posted
you can put it on clothes, and the clothes CAN touch your skin?
but you cannot put on your skin?
what is the difference?
and kayak said she sprays in on the dog's bed. is that ok for dog? what about spraying it around the house like on wood floors, etc?
the sites I found say it CAN go on the skin, but it just doesn't work on the skin to deter bugs. ??
I am confused. I thought it was sort of toxic and that is why I was avoiding it, but is it not toxic to humans/dogs? I know it is to cats.
what about all the things I read on this forum where people said to not let the treated clothes in your house- to put them in a special place or something?
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posted
You can spray it on the clothes but it needs to dry before you can wear the clothes.
You probably do not want to inhale the fumes.
This product bonds to the fibers in your clothes. It is not toxic to the skin, but your skin breaks it down so it is not effective.
This same chemical is used in shampoo if you have lice, so it is not toxic, but your skin metabolizes it, so it won't work against bugs.
It is not toxic to dogs, but is toxic to cats. It can be sprayed around the house but not if you have a cat.
My treated clothes are in the house, but I put them separate from my other clothes just so I know which ones I have treated (socks for example)
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10189 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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LisaK
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thanks!!!
_
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the following article compares DEET with Permethrin as a tick repellent for humans. While Permethrin is fairly safe to humans when used properly, it is very toxic to cats, fish and aquatic life in general! More information is provided below, under the heading "Additional information about DEET and Permethrin".
DEET versus Permethrin as a Tick Repellent By Tom Grier Springtime is tick time. This means we will soon be seeing those cautionary ads on television telling us to use tick repellents. In almost every instance, the active ingredient in those advertised tick repellents will be DEET, which is the active ingredient in most mosquito repellents.
DEET is an excellent mosquito repellent, but it is a fairly poor tick repellent. We are inundated with so many DEET repellents because there are several huge corporations that manufacture hundreds of variations of DEET products. There is only one small company, Coulston Laboratory, that markets a handful of competitive tick repellent products for human use that contain 0.5 % permethrin.
There are pros and cons to each product, but as a tick repellent, permethrin wins hands down. Permethrin is an insecticide derived from a chemical found in the chrysanthemum family of plants. It is a spray that is used on clothes only, and is deactivated and made less effective by the oils on our skin. Once it is sprayed on our clothing, it becomes odorless and can last for several weeks with a single application. Once it is applied, most ticks will curl up and fall off if they make contact, and will eventually die if there is prolonged exposure.
Both DEET and permethrin have come under criticism for possible human side effects. DEET has been associated with human case histories of neurological damage and even death, and products greater than 40% were restricted in some states. Permethrin has been implicated in possibly contributing to the Gulf War syndrome. However, the studies involved mixing permethrin with DEET and applying it directly to the skin of mice that were then given military vaccines.
Pros and Cons:
DEET needs to be applied regularly and can only work as it is evaporating. Permethrin works for weeks after it has dried inside clothing fibers. DEET is applied directly to the skin and can be absorbed through the skin. Permethrin is applied to clothing only and has limited contact to the skin. DEET has a detectable odor. Permethrin smells only until it dries. DEET does not kill or disable ticks and is a poor repellent. Permethrin works instantly and is extremely effective. It is the tick repellent of choice by the military. DEET can melt synthetic clothes like nylon. Permethrin causes no damage to any known cloth or synthetic fiber. DEET products are easy to find. Permethrin is hard to find and more expensive. DEET is an effective fish repellent. Permethrin's effect on fish is unknown. (Permethrin is actually known to be very toxic to fish! - LNE editor) Permethrin-containing products that are approved for human use are manufactured by Coulston labs, and can be found under labels such as Duranon, Permanone, and Congo Creek Tick Spray. A 0.5 % veterinary permethrin product can be found in most feed stores and horse supply shops as a horse tick repellent. The veterinary products tend to cost about half the price per ounce as the human-use product.
The Minnesota Insect-Borne Disease Education Council conducted a field test in Jay Cook State Park in northern Minnesota, and found that the permethrin products outperformed the DEET-containing tick repellents. A shoe was sprayed with Duranon (0.5% permethrin). Three weeks later, it was tested against a recently sprayed shoe using Deep Woods Off (35 % DEET). Ticks that made contact with the Duranon-sprayed shoe immediately rolled up and dropped off. Ticks on the soaking-wet DEET saturated shoe continued to crawl unimpaired.
One last tip for you fishermen out there: DEET is perhaps one of the most effective fish repellents known to man. Just a few parts per million can send game fish like salmon and trout to the other end of the fish tank. If you like to keep mosquito repellent in your tackle box, you may have unknowingly contaminated all of your fishing lures! Be sure to take care not to handle any fishing tackle once you have applied mosquito repellent. Just a few parts-per-million can repel more fish than mosquitoes!
To avoid ticks:
Wear light-colored clothing. Tuck your pants into your socks. Tuck your shirt into your pants. Wear a hat. Spray your shoes, socks, belt-line, collar and hat with a permethrin-containing tick repellent. Do a tick check after walking in high-risk areas. Put any clothes that might have live ticks on them into a hot dryer for ten minutes to kill all insects. Keep your Family Safe! Do Tick Checks!
Additional information about DEET and Permethrin
Additional information about DEET and Permethrin is presented here, which also covers questions and comments that LymeNet Europe received from readers. What is Permethrin? Permethrin is a synthetic chemical, used as an insecticide, acaricide, and insect repellent. It belongs to the family of synthetic chemicals called pyrethroids.
Pyrethroids are similar to the natural pyrethrins produced by the flowers of pyrethrum (plants of the genus Chrysanthemum). Pyrethrum is also the name of a natural insecticide containing pyrethrins that is made from the dried flower heads of Chrysanthemum cinerariifolium and Chrysanthemum coccineum. The dried flower are crushed and mixed with water, and this mixture can then be used as a pyrethrum spray.
Essenstially, pyrethroid insecticides are chemically stabilized forms of the natural pyrethrins. The pyrethrins are a pair of organic compounds (pyrethrin I and pyrethrin II) that occur in the seed cases of the pyrethrum. The main source is Chrysanthemum cinerariaefolium. The flowers are pulverized and the active components, the pyrethrins, are extracted and sold in the form of an oleoresin. This is applied as a suspension in water or oil, or as a powder.
Permethrin Side Effects Permethrin is not known to rapidly harm most mammals or birds, but is dangerously toxic to cats and fish. In general, it has a low mammalian toxicity and is poorly absorbed by skin.
Toxicology and safety
Permethrin is extremely toxic to fish and aquatic life in general, so extreme care must be taken when using products containing permethrin near water sources. Permethrin is also highly toxic to cats, and flea and tick-repellent formulas intended and labeled for (the more resistant) dogs may contain permethrin and cause feline permethrin toxicosis in cats. Very high doses will have tangible neurotoxic effects on mammals and birds, including human beings. Permethrin is listed as a "restricted use" substance by the United States Environmental Protection Agency due to its high toxicity to aquatic organisms.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
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***The Minnesota Insect-Borne Disease Education Council conducted a field test in Jay Cook State Park in northern Minnesota, and found that the permethrin products outperformed the DEET-containing tick repellents. A shoe was sprayed with Duranon (0.5% permethrin). Three weeks later, it was tested against a recently sprayed shoe using Deep Woods Off (35 % DEET). Ticks that made contact with the Duranon-sprayed shoe immediately rolled up and dropped off. Ticks on the soaking-wet DEET saturated shoe continued to crawl unimpaired.***
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
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im glad this thread is here...i am constantly hearing docs say use deet...even llmds
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
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ann...thanks for link a lot of good info
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LisaK
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"it is very toxic to cats, fish and aquatic life in general"
aw, so if it goes in the wash where does it go after that??? to the fishes?
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3592 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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LisaK
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WOW, this is great info. thanks everyone!!!
A lot to read, but I will.
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Keebler
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- Q: "so if it goes in the wash where does it go after that??? to the fishes?" yes. And to other animals - and back to us.
There may be some really good safe & effective alternatives to chemicals. I can't go out and about so I've just not looked into this.
If chemicals are used, good idea to not wash these clothes in with other clothes, though. And be mindful that when washing, it goes right back into our water table.
If you can dedicate an outer layer to spray and re-wear many times so it does not require frequent laundering, that would be good.
Even after washing, when put in the dryer, some chemical residue might transfer to other clothes, too, and collect on the dryer inner surfaces. Best if such sprayed articles could air dry.
Also keep in mind when spraying that stuff, it can get into lungs & eyes. If it gets onto skin, it can be absorbed into the body very quickly. Be sure to check out other ways:
- check ingredient safety on all kinds of personal care and household & outdoor products -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
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- What about some wrist and ankle "bands" like double layered stretchy TERRY cloth or the soft side of VELCRO. Such fabrics might serve to catch ticks. Spray may not hold on the Velcro as it's pretty much plastic but it may hold on the terrycloth.
If the outer layer were sprayed lightly and attention to not turn it around for the next wear, wear over socks or pant legs, etc. that might be something to consider.
A band for hats, too.
Ticks legs are kind of like that rougher side of Velcro the way they turn at the end and (I think) may be very likely to just get attached to the softer Velcro surface.
Still, there are certain essential oils to consider. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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lpkayak
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Bottom line..i use permethrin in as safe a way as possible...following directions...because there still is nothing else that will kill ticks.
I limit where i go outside and still brought one in the other dy. And the stress i have after finding a tick on me is not good for me or my immune system.
I am constantly looking for safer product...it isnt here yet. Im not going to be a guinea pig for this
posted
Keebler, Permethrin is not absorbed by the skin--wet it is quickly broken down which is why you can't use it like people use Deet.
I would much rather put permethrin on my clothes and shoes, then Deet on my skin.
For me essential oils are too strong and they do get absorbed very quickly into the skin.
I know it is not great for the water, but if I want to be outside I will continue to use it.
Otherwise I would be living in a plastic bubble the rest of my life.
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10189 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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lpkayak
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I still dont understand how they can advertise so loudly that deet protects us from ticks
There used to be a thing called false advertising
I really hate the way marketing is done in this country
To me it seems immoral. ..fraudulent. ..but theyjust keep doing it
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Keebler
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- Anything put on the skin can be absorbed. It's just the way skin works, it pretty much drinks in whatever is on it.
Re: The burn factor, the chemical burn factor of essential oils. Thanks for pointing out something that could be misinterpreted since it was not mentioned.
So, to clarify, essential oils are best applied to outer fabric layers, too, out outside of a hem, the tip of a hat, etc.
Unless highly diluted with a carrier lotion or oil (but then an oil in the sun is never really a good idea on skin - would sizzle), essential oils should never to be put onto skin.
For the insect / vector repellent function, the aroma of the essential oil is what does it (we hope!).
A "pendant" of cloth wrapped in a little clump and then dotted with an essential oil or a mixture might work, too. Of course, it would have to be specific oils.
Just avoid direct skin contact -- and also don't touch the oil or allow it to later be rubbed onto the eye area.
Do not apply where you might hug someone's face.
One exception to the direct skin application, though: a little touch of tea tree oil directly on an insect bite. Still, keep that out of the sun so as not to "fry" -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Rose geranium oil can also be applied directly to the skin without a carrier oil to prevent ticks.
One drop behind each ear and one drop on each wrist.
Some also choose to do behind the knees or on the ankles.
I find rose geranium too strong for me personally.
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10189 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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LisaK
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is deltamethrin the same as permethrin? I found some spray called Harris that people say kills ticks on spot, but the ingredients are .03% deltamethrin and 99.97% "other" which may be water.
do you have to dilute premethrin??
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3592 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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posted
No, detamethrin is a relative of premethrin, but again you cannot apply it to your skin. More toxic. It is for use to around the home to kill bugs. Not good to put on your clothes if you plan to wear the clothes.
The premethrin that you spray on your clothes has other ingredients, although mine doesn't say what they are--which is another reason not to get it on your skin.
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10189 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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lpkayak
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the % of permethrin is very small tho and it still works
one of the cheapest ways to get it is at feed store or tack shop where they sell horse stuff
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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LisaK
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there is a tack store near me - I will check
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LisaK
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I am calling places and they all tel me their stuff kills ticks dead but no one has permethrin- its all stuff that sound ssort of like it , but other things.
...ok I found one real close, yay
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lpkayak
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you buy a gallon or so of fly spray and it has a tiny amt of permethrin in it and it works
no one would sell straight permethrn i dont think
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WPinVA
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You could also buy permethrin online.
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LisaK
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is Sawyer good? i see they have it at Walmart down the street.
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LisaK
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yes , I am happy about spraying my rubber mud boots! haha. them ticks would have to crawl far up them to get me. I hope this all works. !! I need to spray a hat and wear it!
so I did spray my one gardening dress on the outside and underside. was this overkill? it smells now and it bothers my nose. even after 2 weeks. and it feels like it wil rub off onto my skin. so it won't do that?
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3592 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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posted
I think Sawyer works the best and lasts the longest of all the brands I have seen. I probably wouldn't spray the inside of the clothes.
I do turn up the hem of my pants and spray them, though and my work shoes and walking shoes and baseball cap and socks and t-shirt.
Reminds me--I need to do this again this week.
If I have enough I may just spray my lawn chair, too.
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10189 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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LisaK
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lymetoo, it's not on the grass (rigth now). it is on our patio. but the patio is touching grass.
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lpkayak
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MDub and others i just read this and i may be wrong but i remember a big thing about NOT MIXING DEET AND PERMETHRIN
They talked about this was what caused the soldiers to get sick...i think they called it gulf war syndrome
I cant look it up now but i do rememder making sure we never mixed them
I have found all those other hints about where to spray to work well...except i wouldnt put it on inside of clothes
Remember in the test the ticks curled up and died before they got to the sneaker with permethrin on it
Im pretty sure when you put it on boots or shoes or horses hooves it rubs off on ground and continues to kill ticks
I used it years ago and where ever i lived the yards and paddocks had way less ticks as time went by
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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LisaK
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I thought gulf war syndrome was from soda cans sitting in the hot sun forever?
maybe it is a general term for all that ails you?
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LisaK
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so....
does anyone spray it inside their car? like on the floor or seats? trunk?
I feel like dr Suess green eggs and ham...
would you could you in a car????
ha
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3592 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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lpkayak
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Yes lisa. I did it regularly when i lived in hudson valley with two schnauzers. More ticks there and the bigger digs were out out than my diva dog i have now
I had a station wagon with their bed inthe way back and sprayed it whenever one of them gotva tick. At least once a month
I also sprsyed seats and floors if i dound one on me or if dogs are up f rt ont like etta is now
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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lpkayak
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Im pretty sure gulf war syndrom is real
Yeah...just google it. You must be a lot younger than me!
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
Yes, Gulf War Syndrome is real. It wasn't just US soldiers who suffered from it. It affected soldiers from every country that was there.
Posts: 99 | From Cali | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
I'm a big fan of permethrin. The Army literally gave it to us by the case when I was stationed in Arkansas. We'd lay all our uniforms out and spray them down before heading to the field. We'd also respray while we were out there. The brand they gave us was "Permanone"
Arkansas bugs were horrible. The "bug juice" they gave us didn't work very well, and Chig-a-way was more like Chig-come-bite-me. Every rotation was torture until they started handing out cases of Permanone. Nothing bit us with that stuff on. Chiggers still got us on the wrists and some on the neck, but no more chiggers covering our arms and chests.
We even caught some ticks and put them on our pant legs and it was amazing how quickly they died.
This was back when they still claimed it caused cancer. The cans listed 38 states it was illegal (including Arkansas). A few years later the Army tested uniforms pretreated with permethrin but not sure what the final results were.
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LisaK
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southpaw, that is interesting.
I was just in virginia and weeded for my sick mama. I know..... I had to but was so bugged out . i got a small rash on my hand with tiny tiny itchy bumps and thought maybe it is chiggers. how do I know? and what did you do about chiggers??
-------------------- Be thankful in all things- even difficult times and sickness and trials - because there is something GOOD to be seen Posts: 3592 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2013
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