Topic: Brain protection in neuroborreliosis/Alcohol?
Jordana
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So this is the kind of thing I do when my brain has some spare time.
I dont know how I ran into this but they did an experiment on rats that showed that supplementing " acetate" to rats during a spirochetal infection brought down the inflammatory markers when their brains were infected with Bb. They used a commercial food additive called "Triacetin"for the acetate.
So I thought okay, damn, I gotta get me some of this acetate and start eating it. I couldn't really find a good source it's an additive ;no one makes acetate burgers.
But it sounded really familiar to me for some reason and I had to poke around a while to remember, but then I did.
Acetate is the metabolite of ALCOHOL in the liver! This is what the liver turns alcohol into to make it into something usable by the body, and when you're drinking alcohol the brain is running on acetate, not sugar.
I also remembered a study where they found that MS patients who drank alcohol had less brain lesions. In fact among MS patients the alcoholics were the highest functioning.
Burrascano said that Lyme treatment fails when you drink alcohol but I think that's because when you're drinking you can't metabolize anything else properly, including drugs.
dbpei
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This is an impressive find! You are quite the researcher, Jordana! My brain can't process these studies very well, but I was never a scientist. I am surprised that this hasn't been followed up. This seems very significant!
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Keebler
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- Alcohol consumption cannot be made out to be good for anyone with lyme. There are so many reasons why.
Tossing back a cold beer or sipping scotch to soothe the rough edges of life looks good in commercials but - for those so very ill - it's not going to be a pretty picture at all.
And it takes so very little to bring down that off the charts hangover hammer that lyme seems to cause.
Alcohol can be very caustic to tender internal tissues and can damage the GI tract, liver, the pancreas (and cause havoc with glucose issues).
In those who are ill, alcohol can damage the brain - indeed - and it's a depressant. I never knew anyone with lyme who needed a mood depressant.
It can also damage the heart, mitochondria. It adds to the toxicity levels and tissue destruction - not just in the tender gut tissues but throughout the body - in those who are dealing with such a severe state as lyme, or other infections.
There are many other safe and healthful ways to find some neuro support and some protections while directly addressing the infections. Many other ways.
If one seeks ways to soothe those rough edges of life, there are also many other enjoyable ways that truly do work with the body. -
[ 04-16-2016, 02:48 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler
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. . . In addition to adenosine's endogenous forms, it is also used as a medication, specifically, as an antiarrhythmic agent,[1][2][3] to treat a number of forms of supraventricular tachycardia that do not improve with vagal maneuvers.[7]
Common side effects include chest pain, feeling faint, shortness of breath along with tingling of the senses .[7] Serious side effects include a worsening dysrhythmia and low blood pressure.[7] . . . . -
[ 04-16-2016, 05:17 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler
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- Why they are even doing this kind of study is very puzzling to me. Looks like they are searching for a new cheap Rx to mask symptoms. Why not just emphasize that lyme can clobber the brain and stress TREATING the infection?
And what they report for this additive is not in line with some of the effects previously mentioned by others and,
really, there are already many things far more effective at neuro protection than something used as a cigarette and fuel additive. Do we really need to put inside of us a plasticizer and solvent? I smell pharmacological politics here.
It seems plausible that a plasticizer and solvent might throw off some testing results, too.
Is this where the money for lyme research is going? If so, so sad.
This the form of acetate used in the study, and while it's also in a lot of processed foods - and medicines - here is a bit more food for thought:
The triglyceride 1,2,3-triacetoxypropane is more generally known as triacetin and glycerin triacetate. It is the triester of glycerol and acetic acid. It is a colorless viscous liquid.
Uses
It is an artificial chemical compound,[6]
commonly used as a food additive, for instance as a solvent in flavourings, and for its humectant function, with E number E1518 and Australian approval code A1518.
Triacetin is also a component of casting liquor with TG and as an excipient in pharmaceutical products, where it is used as a humectant, a plasticizer, and as a solvent.[7]
Triacetin can also be used as a fuel additive as an antiknock agent which can reduce engine knocking in gasoline, and to improve cold and viscosity properties of biodiesel.[8]
In a 1994 report released by five top cigarette companies, triacetin was listed as one of the 599 cigarette additives. The triacetin is applied to the filter as a plasticizer.[9] . . . -
[ 04-16-2016, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler
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- In addition to directly targeting infections - and supporting liver & kidneys - if seeking neuro-protective measures, this might be one of many options to consider. There are some LLMDs and LL NDs who incorporate this - and other brain / neuro supports, too.
. . . Lithium [Orotate] in Parkinson’s and Neurodegenerative Disorders and Traumatic Brain Injury . . . . -
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Keebler
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- Some good articles come up from a search at Google for:
Berberine, neuroprotective
link won't post but go to PubMed for
PubMed search of medical literature
herbs, neuroprotective - 134 abstracts -
[ 04-16-2016, 08:50 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Jordana
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. I knew you'd hate that study, Keebler.
I'm actually in agreement with Burrascano -- you need your liver working really well to process both the therapy and the toxins from this infection.
But when you're in remission I think this points to some help with what might be some background brain inflammation that really might never go away after Lyme.
There are other options too of course. Most of Buhner's last book was full of neuroprotective strategies.
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dbpei
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These articles on lithium orotate make me so glad that I am taking this supplement again. And let's hope that one day I can enjoy a glass of wine with dinner, without fearing it will cause the spirochetes to take over again.
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Jordana
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dbpei, alcohol *kills* spirochetes, and acetate protects the brain, plus for the period of time you're burning alcohol the brain has less sugar in it -- spirochete food.
The problem is that when it's in the bloodstream it drives them into tissues to get away from the alcohol. Alcohol also lowers CD57. So drinking just entrenches the infection overall.
So they won't take over but it seems that if you're not in clear and total remission it will just add to the bacterial load over time. That's what I think, anyway.
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Keebler
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- post above: "alcohol *kills* spirochetes, and acetate protects the brain . . ." (end quote)
no. no. no. no. On either note. Not in the CONTEXT where those with lyme live.
Acetate does not protect the brain, the opposite, actually. It's what makes hangovers so awful, among other things.
Wiki post above: " *** it has been proposed that acetate resulting from oxidation of ethanol is a major factor in causing hangovers. ***"
It is never good to encourage oxidation in the body - it's all we can do to stay on step ahead of how that all works, anyway. That's why antioxidants are a cornerstone of liver support.
That study on little mouse brains with a plasticizer acetate experiment only showed that the plastic can interfere with a tiny sample they looked at
- but that study is NOT something that says it's okay to drink - or okay to take in acetate. That off the wall study with such a narrow view is way out of translation for this population.
I don't know how else to say this: there is no fairy dust, no fairy tale - no spaghetti western - that makes alcohol a medicine for lyme. It is not a good thing in a person who has active / chronic or any degree of lyme / tick-borne or other chronic stealth infection. For so many reasons. -
[ 04-17-2016, 02:23 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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Keebler
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- There are many ways to address lyme / TBD. Having ILADS knowledge of the science of lyme as foundation is good whatever method is chosen.
There are many ways to address body support. And the naturopathic links include herbs / nutrients to help wake up a bit (adrenal support) or calm down (skullcap tincture is excellent).
Some ways (without booze) to nourish / nurture / enjoy / relax / zone out / tune in / connect / disconnect:
be in nature, somehow
connect with friends, celebrate their smiles and laugher
Find humor
appreciate beauty
good foods with garden herbs and exotic spices
explore various green & herbal teas, occasional fizzy drinks (the fizz can be rough on stomach if too often) with a dash of a new fruit, all real, right from nature . . . .
massage - either with a LMT - or get a circle of friends to take a course on how to give each other massage. Even hand or foot massages can do wonders.
Get your circle of friends / family to help you (and them) when feeling stress. A shoulder rub - diversion, listening, etc.
dance, move on any level - or watch others
Move in other ways: Tai Chi; Qigong; Pilates; Water therapy;
roll around on the floor and just be silly (admittedly, this is more fun with others but, hey, if one is alone, pretend you are a character in an off Broadway play and just go for it)
friends
art - in so many formats
read - for pleasure (not just to save our lives as we have to do so much. Turn off the work reader and let a book choose you).
music - listen, play, sing, hum or whistle a happy tune
Find "house concerts" and "song circles" in your area
* Appreciate IRONY as frequently as possible. This can become a strong suit and saving grace.
etc., etc., etc. -
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I have nothing to contribute to this thread other than a somewhat uninformed observation.
Regarding alcohol killing spirochetes, yes of course concentrated alcohol. But alcohol levels in the body range from 0.02% to 0.20%. Any higher, and spirochetes aren't your biggest problem.
Again, it is not informed, but I don't think a 0.20% alcohol solution would kill any bacteria. That is like putting a teaspoon of liquor into a two-liter drink. Not sure it is going to disinfect anything.
Having said that, I am intrigued by the statement about the MS alcoholics doing better, if that is indeed true.
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Jordana
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I don't know.
Outside of published studies there are a lot of recommendations for Lyme that are somewhat exotic - things like Chinese Skullcap and Lithium Orotate and Uncaria Rynchophylla.
It's all good that these things are helpful but I do think that people have been self-medicating with whatever they have on hand for much longer than the internet or fast delivery of herbal medicine have been around.
On the other hand people have been using alcohol for brain inflammation for as long as there have been people. And it is also from nature. It's a useful medicinal and has its place -- not during active Lyme I don't think though.
Keebler
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- It is irresponsible to suggest that alcohol use can be used as a "natural medicine" for "brain inflammation" It is not a useful medicine and it does not have its place as such.
Even studies that say wine is helpful, well, in context for those not with lyme and those reports fail to look at the liver. They look at just one part, not the whole.
It is a substance with certain properties. Not a medicine. We are not talking here about an herbal alcohol tincture, to be taken in very small amounts (like 30 drops max in a half cup of water).
To tout alcohol in the amounts consumed as a beverage can be very confusing - and potentially dangerous for those new to all this.
Alcohol can cause brain inflammation and so many other complications for those with such serious infection as lyme.
To suggest that alcoholics have an easier time with "MS" (not stated but we all that "MS" is often undiagnosed lyme) and that those who consume alcohol are going to cheat disease, well,
it dangerously misinterprets that one survey, take it out of context and is missing the mark regarding looking out for those new to this who may think it's okay. -
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Jordana
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Okay Keebler, I'm not going to argue with you. I didn't create that study or pay for it; I just thought it was interesting.
Irresponsible is a pretty strong word.
But I do want to point out that sometimes these herbal medications you link to are not without their drawbacks; are expensive and many times nearly unproven.
The older the drug the more drawbacks/adverse reactions are recorded; but that doesn't mean the drug itself will not have the effects it is claimed to have. Alcohol is a drug and given that you can make it in your basement I would call it a natural one.
I've been taking a crapton of tinctures here; ryhnchophylla, Jernigan's antitox, lithium, and skullcap -- I have no idea if they're doing anything at all. These are not a well studied as alcohol, or aspirin, or methylene blue but our assumption is that they're safer or more beneficial.
Maybe. I've had conversations with people in the lyme world now who won't touch an antibiotic because they're so "toxic" and they're going to do it the natural way; when there are studies clearly showing that antibiotics work on Lyme (imperfectly) and some of the "natural" stuff people are taking for it really do absolutely nothing.
I think it's worthwhile to be as objective as we can.
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Loosely on this topic, I've wondered if there is enough quinine in tonic water (perhaps with gin :-) ) to kill babesia, or other parasites.
Probably not, but it would be cool...
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Keebler
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- ohioperson,
best to start a whole new thread with that question - but, no, tonic water will not treat babesia.
And, in reply to your "perhaps with gin" that joke might not be translated accurately for all new to this. So, sigh, gin - and all alcoholic drinks - can be very damaging to those with tick borne infections.
And quinine, alone, is not the best way forward as it can have its downside in the doses and length for ongoing treatment -
drawbacks: including ototoxicity.
It needs to be combined with other anti-babesia agents but there are many from which to choose so quinine need not be included.
Also the tonic water in the stores can be caustic to the lining of the stomach. Most fizzy waters can to those with "leaky gut" as many with lyme have. Once in a while, a fizzy non-alcoholic drink or even tonic water concoction might be nice, though (but many have either sugar or chemical sweeteners added).
If you enjoy the taste of quinine, you can get a straight tincture and add just a couple drops to a nice chilled water - or fizzy water sometimes - and make your own with stevia. But it just won't be enough to sustain for treatment. Still, refreshing.
And some brands don't use actual quinine anymore but a synthetic flavor.
The Cowden protocol has a quinine tincture: QUINA The main active ingredient in Quina is Quinine. Used as PART of an overall protocol.
Do start a new thread if you want to discuss all the options for babesia treatments. It's an expansive topic. -
[ 04-19-2016, 03:40 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
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My sister, 2 tick bites on chest in April 2006, treated with 10 days doxy, better, by July 2006 waking up in am crippled, unable to walk, dropping things, various neuro events. I Got her to a LLMD Aug 2006, 9 month of doxy and mino, got well, BUT she was drinking very heavily hard liquor and has recovered better than a lot of people I know. It's 2016 and no relapses yet, still drinking.
EVerclear kills. Just stay drunk for months on end. Great cure for LD.
Wish I could have done that but have to work and pay bills.
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Jordana
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The downside to that is that I bet there's a relapse when she stops. I don't know this for sure, just speculating, but when the bugs have nowhere to go they hibernate in tissues. Then again, if they hibernate long enough it might be as good as a cure?
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Keebler
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Well, I don't need the study to know that when I don't have a glass of red wine, I feel worse than when I do. Not advocating it to others as it's a personal choice but please NO FINGER WAGGING OR DON"T DO THAT RESPONSES! I'm sick of those too.
Study schmudy.....I've been sick for so long that now my motto is, if it feels good even for a little bit, I'm going to try it. I'll take a glass of wine, a toke of smoke and would even try that Ecstasy (sp?) stuff if I could get my hands on some.
Just goes to show, they're now testing that last drug (that I can't spell) in clinical trials for suicidal people with such depression nothing else works. And it seems to HELP THEM!
Go figure!
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If you clog up your liver, you will very soon be unable to process the nutrients your body needs. You can also become extremely sensitive to salicylates, histamines and oxalates in foods. That will make it VERY diffcult to recover from ANYTHING.
The very foods you NEED .. you will be unable to eat .. or to process.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96223 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Jordana
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Really it's not clogging the liver; it's stunning the liver. Your liver won't do anything but process the alcohol until it runs out of alcohol and won't switch over to processing other toxins or digesting other food for some number of hours later.
Given the meds, supplements and toxins a person is processing in treatment that could be bad.
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. I knew you'd hate that study, Keebler.
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