Here are some quotes from the Bible on war, muder, self-defense:

Eccl 9:18
Wisdom is better than weapons of war...

Matt 26:52b
All who draw the sword will die by the sword.

Matt 5:39b-41

Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you
on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if
someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him
have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go
one mile, go with him two miles.

Matt 5:5

Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth.

3 Jn 1:11
Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good...

1 Jn 3:15b
You know that no murderer has eternal life in him.

Ecclesiastes 3:3 a time to kill and a time to heal, 3:8 a time to love, a time to hate, a time for war, a time for peace.

There will be war in heaven itself

Revelations 12:7 And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back.

The Lord is a man of war.

Exodus 15:3 The Lord is a warrior, the Lord is his name. Pharohs chariots and amry has been hurled into the sea.

Exodus 17:16 The Lord will be at war against the Amalekites from generation to generation.

Numbers 1:1-3 The Lord spoke to Moses in the tent of the meeting in the desert of Sinai on the first day of the second month of the second year after the Isrealites came out of Egypt. He said "Take a census of the whole Israelite community by their clans and families, listing every man by name one by one. You and Aaron are to number by their division all the men in Isreal twenty years old or more who are able to serve in the army."

Numbers 32:20
Then Moses said to them, "If you will do this- if you will arm yourselves befor the Lord for battle and if all of you will go armed over the Jordan before the Lord until he has driven his enemies out before him then when the land is subdued before the Lord you may return and be free from your obligation to the Lord and to Israel and this land will be your posession before the Lord." 23 "But if you fail to do this, you will be sinning against the Lord and you may be sure that your sin will find you out."

Proverbs 20:18 Make plans by seeking advice, if you wage war, obtain guidence.

Psalms 144:1 Praise be to the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle.

I could go on and on.

I will not bother with this ages old debate with you. If you truly knew the Lord you would know He is the Lord of Hosts and you would know what that meant.

You would know what it means to read the WHOLE Bible and not just a few random scriptures that SEEM to make your narrow point.

The TRUTH of the matter is God is a Warrior and MANY of His favorite people throughout history have been warriors, from Joshua through David.

Do you know why Saul lost the kingdom??? I bet you don't. Why dont you actually read the bible and get back to me on that one, here is a clue it is in 1 Samuel, look for Samuel asking Saul "what is that sound I hear???"

Look up what Elijah did on Mount carmel to the prophets of Baal.

Look at God's instructions to Joshua concerning all the inhabatiants of Cannan.

Read the book of Judges and the story of Giddion and his fellow Judges.

Context Pepsi, context.

The TWO passages I posted was in response to some flippant comment by I don't remember who that said "who would Jesus bomb" so I answered. Not with out of context verses but with whole passages where I let the author speak His mind and complete His thoughts. Sorry if it dosen't align with your concept of god, perhaps you need to reexamine your god, perhaps it's not the God of the Bible.

Sheesh!

Mo

Pepsi,

That is a POOR translation of the Hebrew because the english loses the intent that is inherent in the Hebrew. The command should read Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder (Malice of intent is implied) because if you happened to read the sory of Noah you would see that God implimented capitol punishment then.

You are Right in the fact that there is only One God Sh'ma Israel "Hear O Isreal the Lord thy God is One"

That was not my question to you, my question to you was is what you are serving the God of the Bible or one of your own construction which would be no god at all.

There is no scarsam at all in that, just plain hard truth. I do get tired of "bible grazers" who try to tell me about God and neither know the Bible nor the God the Book Speaks about, and you happen to be just such a one. All this sloppy agape nonsence is Laodecian AT BEST.

But unless you actually want to know who He is you'll never know, so long as you just want to reinforce you image of what you think He should be you'll do just that. The choice is yours.

Seeing the do not see and hearing they do not hear.....

nor can you speak on any other's personal relationship with their God.

Mo

Meg;
Well, do you think the terrorists have the same God as Christians?

My God does not promise 17 virgins for the men who would highjack planes.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mo:
YOU cannot possibly speak for God,

nor can you speak on any other's personal relationship with their God.

Mo

---

Meg:
Yes, you could speak for God, as for instance the 10 commandments speak his word, and the bible.

You also could speak about someone else's faith if you knew them well enough.

I think what you are trying to say Mo, is that Sent cannot speak for Pepsi concerning God. If I am right, then you should say that instead.

That said, Sent sees what Pepsi is trying to do with biblical verse, as in parsing it out to fit the occasion, and understands that she is using the bible, and most probably not understanding it.

Killing = murder = death by another's hand.

Even your use of the screen name "Sent by Him" is arrogant and presumptuous. How dare you say that I don't know God or the bible. You don't even know me and even if you did, it is NOT your place to judge another's personal relationship with God.

And Meg, I do think there is only one God, but it is just my opinion. Many people do and say wrong things (including Sent and the hijackers) in the name of God. I think the 17 hijackers are misguided by their thinking that virgins waiting are for them. But I don't believe that means there is more than one God.

None of us should presume to speak for God or to think we are on the same level as God.

As for the scarsam, if Pepsi would have done her/his assigned homework he/she would have read this and noted that scarsam is not forigen to Men of God:

1 Kings 18:27
At noon Elijan began to taunt them, "Shout louder!" he said. "Surely he is a god! Perhaps he is deep in thought, or busy, or traveling. Maybe he is sleeping and must be awakened."

(Elijah on Mount Carmel)

I didn't speak about her relationship with HER god I just drew into question which God it was.

Many people of many different faiths have very deep relationships with their dieties, but that dosen't make those dieties the God of the Bible and it concerns me when someone "thinks" they are serving the God of the Bible and truly are not because they have no clue about who He is. There is a simple remedy, read the book, not just your favorite verses but the whole book the choose if that is the God you want to serve or not.

Just because someone can play chopsticks dosen't mean they can play the paino any more than it means someone knows God because they have a "few" scriptures memorized.

I CAN speak on His behalf, I do so on a regular basis, have been for quite some time now. That is just the way things are.

That doesn't mean any one of us is wrong or right. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't mean you have to agree with them.

I'll assume you haven't read the "what's in a name" post and if you have you didn't pick out my screen name or it's origins. I was training as a forigen missionary when I got sick...hence Sent By Him as in Going to the mission field, it is also my e-mail address and still a desire of my heart, so not arrogance but vocation.

Never said I was on the same level as God only the Pope claims that and I take issue with that claim but that is for another topic.

I do posess a LARGE knowledge of the Bible greater even than many of my peers, it is a gift, I guess. I see by your postings that you don't. I also see in your postings the same old arguements that I have heard a thousand times by liberal churches/pastors. You know the ones that throw away the bible in exchange for who knows what, I think they thoght it would help attendance but it never does. I was going to list the ones I least favored but I digress. There are Solid Christians on pews in every church and hyprocryates on pews in every church, so what is a person to do?? Well it's a precentage game, the better the church the higher the precentage of solid christians ect...

But like attracts like in spiritual matters so you would most likely surround yourslef with "sloppy agape" no accounatability to God, lets all just get along, kind of people. Well it dosen't work that way.

Christ came as a stumbling block and a Rock Of Offence? Who have you offended lately??? It is only God's spirit that soften's the blow of the offence of being exposed to one's own sinful nature. That is why "noone can come to the Father except the Spirit draw them". Noone wants to face themselves like that, so "modern" churches have glossed over the message and watered it down till it nolonger reslembles the truth, and if it isn't the truth what do you have left??? a lie.

So if I seeem frustrated with YOU it's not you it's just the same old same old nonsence that has been going around for a long time, infact since the second chapter of the book. "Surely God will not kill you if you eat this...." Nothing new except the packageing.

"But you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

None of us should presume to speak for God or to think we are on the same level as God.
*************************************

Meg:
Pepsi, you're speaking the liberal Mantra
in this instance. "Those Christians are judgemental, and think they are better than us, they think they speak for God" (my interpretation)

Just to clarify, I believe in only ONE GOD myself, The God of Jacob and Isaac, the God of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, The Great I am, the Lord of Hosts, The Alpha and Omega, Jesus who was crucified for us, The Father, Son and Holy Ghost.

I don't believe in any other gods existence.

I would only presume to "speak for God" when it is biblically based. To do anything else, is a sin.

A Christian is not part of a select group who think they are as good as God, or better than you. That is not Christianity, and if you think it is, well READ THE BIBLE!!

We have been thru this whole discussion of Sents name before, and he is correct in saying he is Sent by Him.
If you are a Christian, you are compelled to speak his word for HIM!
I do whenever I can.

If you love God, you speak what you know of him......period.

You can interpret His Word, read His Word, share His Word..but cannot speak for Him.

Meg, as far as Pepsi posting from the Bible, and the commandments in relation to what's happening in our world today..how is that any different than the posted quotes on how God "supports War"?

One can pull quotes from the Bible to support prety much anything, and it has been done by serial killers and mass murderers.

As far as Iraq..when folks speak in the name of Christianity (including Mr. Bush) to justify the War in Iraq..that is just plain scary.

It is a twisted pronouncement..which is in reality very weak, and fear based..and can be disputed based on God's Word as easily as it is put forth.

*******************************************

The Bible and Iraq
by Carl Schmahl

In a recent article, God is Pro-war, the Reverend Jerry Falwell attempted to provide a Biblical justification for George W. Bush's invasion and occupation of Iraq. Tucked away among the Bible proof texts near the end of the article, Falwell added his own rationalizations for the war: "President Bush declared war in Iraq to defend innocent people. This is a worthy pursuit," and: "One of the primary purposes of the church is to stop the spread of evil, even at the cost of human lives. If we do not stop the spread of evil, many innocent lives will be lost and the kingdom of God suffers."

These are chilling statements, especially since they were written by a well-known minister of the Gospel whose views are shared by millions of church-going Evangelical and Fundamentalist Christians. They do, however, bring to light the unholy alliance between the American State and the Christian religion as it is currently practiced in the U.S.

Falwell seems unaware that when Christians support the president-of-the-moment without demanding that he obey the law which applies to everyone else they are stepping out onto very thin ice indeed. His attempt to give a religious imprimatur to the Iraq war is a case in point.

For centuries the Christian Church has worked to mitigate the horrors of war and to restrain the war-powers of the State by insisting that certain conditions must be met before a war is deemed morally justifiable and worthy of Christian support. Among these conditions is the requirement that the resort to war be decided only by those persons who possess "right authority."

Under the Constitution of the United States, "right authority" to commit the nation to war is vested in Congress alone. A president has no more legal standing to "declare war in Iraq" than you or I do, regardless of how "worthy" the pursuit may seem to some.

Since the end of World War Two the United States has involved itself in dozens of conflicts around the world, at the cost of more than a hundred thousand American and uncounted millions of foreign dead. Not a single one of these overseas adventures was authorized by the Congressional declaration of war required by the Constitution. Each and every one of them was therefore illegal under the supreme law of the land, and the deaths inflicted on friend and foe and innocents alike amounted to mass murder.

Advocates of American global hegemony might assert that the practice of the past sixty years has established a legitimizing precedent, and that a formal declaration of war is no longer practical or even necessary when the Commander-in-Chief decides that the nation's security is at risk. Nothing can be farther from the truth. If two wrongs do not make a right, neither do two hundred. Unless the Constitution is amended to shift the war-making power from Congress to the Executive branch, every armed foreign intervention simply underscores the essentially lawless nature of the American State, and of presidents like George W. Bush who consider themselves above legal and moral restraint.

Remember that when President Bush was inaugurated he publicly swore a solemn Oath of Office in which he invoked the name of God to help him preserve and protect that same Constitution. It is now obvious that he swore that oath with his fingers figuratively crossed behind his back, reserving to himself the right to ignore the oath of office, the Constitution, and even the Third Commandment when it suited him.

President Bush is fluent in the rhetoric of born-again Christianity which appeals to Evangelical and Fundamentalist Protestants such as Jerry Falwell. So were his predecessors in the White House who used left-wing, progressive rhetoric to rally the support of liberal mainliners. But rhetoric is one thing and actual behavior is another.

Jesus Christ told us that a tree can be judged by the fruit that it bears. By this standard, George W. Bush's actual conduct in his role as president makes it crystal clear that he acknowledges no higher sovereignty than his own imperial will and no higher power than the power of the State. Once he determined upon a "worthy pursuit" such as a war of aggression against a nation which had not attacked America and posed no threat to our country, then all considerations of truth, Constitutional limitations on State power, international law, domestic and foreign public opinion, even the Law of God itself, became as nothing.

Jerry Falwell on the "religious right," and the "progressives" on the "religious left," may be far apart theologically and ideologically, but they are united when they accept the State's assertion of absolute sovereignty and eagerly produce the religious rationalizations which support that claim.

This is a more dangerous state of affairs than it may first appear.

The last book of the Bible, variously called the Book of Revelation or the Apocalypse of John, provides a horrific warning of what happens when the state divinizes itself and is supported in that claim by a religious establishment.

In the highly-charged apocalyptic imagery of Revelation 13, a hideous beast emerges from the sea, conjured up by the dragon (Satan). According to the Reformed Bible scholar William Hendricksen, the beast from the sea:

"is Satan's hand [which] represents the persecuting power of Satan operating in and through the nations of the world and their governments. [. . .] To this monster the dragon gives his power and authority. [. . .] In worshiping the beast, men are also rendering homage to the dragon who gave his authority to it. [. . .] We interpret the picture as follows. The sea represents nations and their governments.[. . .] The sea-born beast symbolizes the persecuting power of Satan embodied in all the nations and governments of the world throughout all history. World-dominion directed against God's people wherever and whenever it appears in history, that is the beast. [. . .] In this beast the persecuting power of Satan becomes visible. [. . .] Throughout this entire gospel age . . . the governments of this world place themselves on the throne; arrogate to themselves the authority that belongs to God (think of the totalitarian governments of the present day) and blaspheme God and heaven."

The beast from the sea symbolizes every emperor, every king, every president, every authority which claims for itself absolute sovereignty, and which acknowledges no limitations except those which grow out of its own imperial will. Sounds familiar, doesn't it?

A second beast then appears, this one "coming up out of the earth." Hendricksen comments:

"[This beast] represents the devil's mind. [. . .] the false religions and philosophies of this world. [. . .] This second beast is the servant of the first. [. . .] The second beast is the false prophet. It symbolizes false religion and false philosophy in whichever form these take throughout the entire dispensation. Although this beast outwardly resembles the Lamb [i.e. Christ] it inwardly conceals the dragon. In other words, whatever strikes the eye is very appealing and attractive. The beast looks very innocent: a nice little lamb, a pet for the children. And this lamb speaks like the devil himself! This second beast, accordingly, is the lie of Satan dressed up like the truth. It is Satan masquerading as a shining angel. It symbolizes all false prophets in every era of this dispensation. They come disguised as sheep, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. [. . .] The two beasts - antichristian government and antichristian religion - work in perfect co-operation. That is invariably the case."

The beast from the land, or false prophet, symbolizes every religion and philosophy which accept the State's claim of absolute sovereignty, and which support the State by providing the biblical or theological or philosophical rationalizations for that claim.

In the first century when the Book of Revelation was written, the beast and false prophet represented the Roman Empire supported by the priests of the emperor cult, but that was only the beginning. In the nineteenth century the beast and false prophet were discernable in the Lincoln administration's antinomian war against the South as cheered on by post-millennial Unitarian abolitionists. In the twentieth century the beast and false prophet emerged once again in the Third Reich buttressed by the ideology of Nazism and the loyalty of the "German Christians," and in the Soviet communist regime with its philosophical Marxism and tame Russian Orthodox bishops.

Now that we have entered the twenty-first century, who would have thought that the most recent historical manifestation of the beast emerging from the sea of nations would be the government of the good old U S of A? Or that the false prophet which gives it religious and theological legitimacy would come from the ranks of self-proclaimed Christian believers who have replaced their faith in the God who reigns over the nations with nationalism or ideological and political commitments which prevent them from recognizing that they are in the service of the dragon?

God is not mocked. Unless American Christians of all stripes wake up and recognize the implications of their uncritical support for a State and a president which acknowledge no sovereignty higher than the will to power of those who possess a monopoly on force, they will share in the fate of every beast and false prophet which has appeared in history:

"Then the beast was captured and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who received his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. [. . .] The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever" (Revelation 19:20, 21; 20:10).

Christians in America have for far too long equated faith with uncritical loyalty to the State. The time has come for the people who call themselves by Christ's name to remember that when it comes to the messianic pretensions of politicians: "He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; the Lord shall hold them in derision" (Psalm 2:4, 5).

February 9, 2004

When the POWER of LOVE overcomes the LOVE of POWER...the world will know peace.

If Mr. Bush was not Mr. Bush, but just a regular guy, I dare say someone would've tried to have him committed for getting messages from God, etc. How does one know his messages are real, sane.......and the next guy is "just plain crazy"?

I should add - my mother also got a message from God when I was a baby. The message said she had to sacrifice me (i.e. KILL me). She called my dad at work and asked if it would be OK to sacrifice the dog instead. I'm sure she really was also convinced it was truly God speaking to her.

DLL

What do I mean by that??? Where have you been?? Episcopial Church Ordains an openly, practcing, homosexual man as a bishop?? How can such an org. call itself "christian"?? Haven't they read Romans 1????

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.

kind of clear isn't it??? Then there are those who say that "all roads lead to the same place..." Didn't they read what Jesus himself said: John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." again pretty clear again isn't it. But some have done what was foretold:2 Timothy 4:3
For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.

So I am not suprised that it is happening, but I am frustrated when confronted.

Meg said that "there is only One God" this is true. But people CAN worship whatsoever they want, it makes no difference to me, really it dosen't. Rub Budda's belly, bow to Allah all you want, heck find a hooker and say your worshiping Diana for all I care BUT at least KNOW what your talking about when you do it. And PLEASE don't say you are a diciple of the God of the Bible and then don't even bother to know what His word says, even the parts that you don't like or find boring. That is what gets my dander up.

I can and DO speak FOR HIM I have been called for such and if someone don't like it TOO DARNED BAD!!! TAKE IT UP WITH HIM. I didn't ask for my anointing/calling it is an endowment but as such I will fufil what God has called me to.

I am not suprised at the reaction Mo is having to it, and how she is railing against it. So do all sinners when confronted by an anointed man of God, just open the Bible and see how the prophets of old were treated and recieved.

1 Thessalonians 2
14For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to all men.

19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

Get the point???

How dare you say this Sent..

I did not question that you were a man of God (before this post)..just that noone can speak FOR Him. Noone can. You are no exception.

You know nothing of me, and certainly nothing of my faith .. or my life..

Yet you feel you can unabashedly refer to me particularly as a sinner (why? because I challanged you and your right to speak **FOR** God? Because I am not voting for Bush?)..and you infer that you are a prophet in the same breath.

No man living in peace with himself under my God would ever do that. You went way too far, Sent. I would never feel justified in saying something like this.

I'm really sorry you feel so much anger. Maybe you can open The Book and look to this from Paul:

Love must be completely sincere. Don't fake it. Love one another warmly as Christian brothers and sisters. Be joyful in hope, patient in affliction, faithful in prayer. Share your belongings with needy fellow Christians. Open your homes to strangers; live in harmony with one another. **Bless your enemies; never take revenge. Discover beauty in everyone. If your enemy is hungry, buy that person lunch. Overcome evil with good.

Mo

After listening to the debating and trying to debate..maybe not like I should have and I am sorry for hurting anyone ..that was not my intention.

I am now clear and firmly believe we must have a leader with HUMILITY.

For in having a leader with humility he can recognize that he is not all-knowing and will be better able to respect differing opinions .

In respecting differing opinions we can have a stronger society.

I want a leader that can respect separation of church and state.We are electing a leader to run our country not our religious beliefs and practices.

I respect the people who have represented their beliefs with the data,the strong convictions and with their heart and soul.

Our country clearly needs more humility...by calling people unpatriotic because they voice their opposition to war is not right,By calling people sinners because their ideologies do not follow in the foot steps of the present administration..is not right.

Christ was dealing with individual souls..he did not tell us how to operate a government?

This is a wonderful site. Full of gusto and gumption.

Our country and its'leadership is clearly lacking HUMILITY.

All Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness.

People have the problem of not understanding the bible. Reasons

1. God does the teaching we do the learning.
2.You need to know who hes talking to in that given verse.(in context)
3.Not everything written in the bible is specificly written to you, but for your instruction.

I do however respectfully disagree with you about "speaking For God" perhaps it is just a matter of semantics though. I do not supose to speak AS God as the pope does but this coming Saturday I will speak FOR God when I declare Kim and Dave Husand and Wife. I am delcaring that a Holy Covenant has taken place and on God's behalf I am speaking, that is by defalut my job to speak FOR God, hence the semantic thing I think we are hung up on....

Again please accept my apoligies as I have re-read my post and feel awful that I went off on such a tangent. I was literally sitting under a hole in my celing on my first night back in my own home.

Previous posts aside, I do like to "stir the pot" but not offend an individual unless that individual is running for office then they are fair game and open for discussion.

Wouldn't this be boring if we all just said yeah, yeah, yeah....Ra ra ra....

anyhow enough groveling for now I have to go throw out my bed and start working on my bedroom, I think I will eat lunch first....

quote:

---

Originally posted by meg:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pepsi:
[B]PS There is only ONE true God, not your God and my God.

Meg;
Well, do you think the terrorists have the same God as Christians?

My God does not promise 17 virgins for the men who would highjack planes.

---

Hmmmmm. Thought it was 72 virgins (and that's virgins for ETERNITY!!! No matter how many times they (blank) the maiden head returns and they are as untouched as at the first blush of maidenhood)

Now how sick is that? Well, I'm sorry. I just can't buy ANY of the old tribal desert patriarchal sky God religions that all started with the Hebrews and their obsession with unclean women.

Has anyone experienced the insult of reaching out to shake the hand of an ultra Orthodox Rabbi and have him shrink back in horror as if from the hand of a leper with oozing sores?
It's not pleasant, I can tell you.

Well--now that's off my chest.

As for YOUR God, Meg--he allows you to fly up to Heaven on the Judgment Day, while me and mine must stay here on earth and suffer unspeakable horrors only to eventually die to suffer ETERNAL horrors.

Sorry, again, but that's (almost) as offensive as those 72 virgins as a reward for holy martyrdom

But you say I can allow the Savior into my heart and be saved and have eternal life?

No thanks. I'm stubborn and I don't like the threat of violent suffering (even in the after life) to force me to embrace righteousness or burn in hell.

I prefer to try to live by Jesus' more gentle teachings about loving thy neighbor as thyself, and turning the other cheek, here on this earth, and not to think much about Armageddon and the Day of Judgment.

One of the more awesome scenes in the final book of the Bible reads as follows:

``And I saw the heaven opened; and behold, a white horse, and he that sat thereon called Faithful and True; and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. And his eyes are a flame of fire, and upon his head are many diadems; and he hath a name written which no one knoweth but he himself. And he is arrayed in a garment sprinkled with blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which are in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and pure. And out of his mouth proceedeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty. And he hath on his garment and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS (Rev. 19:11-16 - ASV).

Introductory Matters
The scene begins with John using that expression which asserts that his message is of divine origin. He saw ``heaven opened'' (see 4:1; cf. Ezek. 1:1). Moreover, the events of earth are under the sovereign control of him who orchestrates his will from heaven, and the apostle was given a preview of the final conflict.

John uses his characteristic ``behold'' (idou - 26 times in Revelation) to enliven the narrative, to awaken attention to what he is about to describe.

The Holy Warrior
The primary subject of the vision was on a ``white horse.'' ``White'' in Revelation can suggest either purity (3:18) or victory (6:2); here the latter sense seems implied - particularly in view of the astounding conquest that is described subsequently (see Jackson, p. 13-14).

The rider undeniably is Jesus Christ. He is designated as the ``Word'' of God, whom the apostle elsewhere identifies as the Lord Jesus (cf. Jn. 1:1,14; 1 Jn. 1:1). Christ is the divine Word (logos) because he is the thought and voice of Heaven to humanity (cf. Jn. 1:18; 14:8f). The will of God for mankind cannot be ascertained apart from the revelatory mission of Jesus of Nazareth.

The Lord is further characterized as ``faithful'' because he ever was loyal to the will of his Father (Jn. 8:29; 2 Cor. 5:21; Heb. 3:2; 4:15; 1 Pet. 2:22). It was Jesus' perfect life that qualified him to be the atoning sacrifice for sin (1 Pet. 1:18-19). Moreover, he is ``true'' as to his witness of the will of God to our blighted race (cf. Rev. 1:5; 3:7,14).

The Purpose of His Mission
The apostle sets forth the mission of the heavenly warrior. In righteousness he judges and makes war!

When Jesus came to earth the first time, his purpose was to inaugurate a system of redemption for Adam's fallen family. As he himself said: ``For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved'' (Jn. 3:17). Once that mission of mercy was implemented, no further plan was to be offered. Aside from Jesus, there is no other sacrifice for sins (cf. Heb. 10:26).

In this latter instance, however, the Lord has not come on a mission of mercy; rather, he has arrived for judgment and the destruction of the ungodly. It is important to note the connection between ``judge'' and ``make war.'' The two occur simultaneously. The war is the day ofjudgment! See 2 Corinthians 5:10 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7ff.

One can hardly consider this context without referring back to the scene in chapter 16, when, in the graphic symbolism of the narrative, wrath from heaven is poured out as a prelude to a holy war. The major enemies of truth (the dragon, the beast, and the false prophet) were gathered ``unto the war of the great day of God'' (16:14). Figuratively, it was designated as ``Har-Magedon'' (i.e., the hill of Megiddo). Megiddo, the most famous battlefield in history, thus becomes a symbol for the conflict that is to take place on the final day of this globe's existence. Observe that this is ``the great day of God,'' which corresponds to ``the day of God'' described by Peter in the third chapter of his second epistle (v. 12). It also is referred to as ``the day of the Lord'' (v. 10), or the time of ``his coming'' (v. 4).

According to the vision in 16:13ff, the forces of Satan are gathered for a mighty confrontation with the Sovereign of the universe. The actual conflict is viewed in chapter 19 - together with the predictable result.

Significantly, it is affirmed that the Lord will act (judge and make war) in ``righteousness'' (v. 11), i.e., consistent with the ultimate standard of a just Deity. Abraham once expressed confidence in the fact that God would treat humanity fairly, distinguishing between the righteous and the wicked. He asked: ``Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?'' (Gen. 18:25). The theme of divine justice is common to this book (cf. 16:5,7; 19:2). The final judgment will be fair in that it will:

take into consideration one's level of personal knowledge (Lk. 12:47-48);

be consistent with one's individual abilities (Lk. 19:13ff);

be rendered in light of one's unique opportunities (Mt. 11:20ff);

be cognizant of the law-system to which one was amenable (Heb. 10:28-29).
There are many aspects of Heaven's judgment that we cannot appreciate from our current, limited vantage point, but on that final day, called ``the day of wrath and the revelation of the righteous judgment of God'' (Rom. 2:5), our questions will be resolved, and the whole of humanity, in one fashion or another, will acknowledge the Creator's justice (cf. Rom. 14:10-12).

The Warrior Described
John said of the Conqueror: ``His eyes are a flame of fire'' (Rev. 19:12). This descriptive has occurred twice previously in this book (1:14; 2:18). The symbolism likely highlights the deep, penetrating insight of the Son of God, suggesting that he is perfectly qualified to judge. All things are naked and laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do (Heb. 4:13).

Upon the Lord's head were many ``crowns'' (KJV), or ``diadems'' (ASV). There are two words for ``crown'' in the New Testament. There is the stephanos, the wreath of victory (cf. 1 Cor. 9:25), with which Christ is adorned in the scene of 14:14, and which faithful saints are promised (Rev. 2:10). Yet, in this case, the term is diadem, the crown of royalty. The picture is that of the regal authority of the Son of God. He has the divine right of judgment and conquest.

The apostle says the warrior ``had a name written which no one knows but himself.'' This phrase is obscure. It is generally taken to mean that there are mysteries associated with Jesus which the human mind can never fathom (cf. Barclay, p. 232).

The Lord is here arrayed with a garment dipped in blood. ``Dipped'' (from bapto) is supported by the better manuscript evidence than is ``sprinkled'' (rhantizo - ASV). But whose blood is it that so saturates this garment, that it almost looks dyed (Arndt, p. 132)? While some would argue that the imagery points to the shed blood of the Lamb (Johnson, pp. 574-5), it is more likely that the graphic is borrowed from the Old Testament - specifically Isaiah 63:1-6. In this sacred narrative, the prophet sees a strong and majestic being, who is returning from a devastating slaughter of the Edomites (enemies of the Lord's people). His garment is soaked in blood - stained like one who has trod the winepress. The blood is that of those rebels who flaunted his will. God has had his ``day of vengeance'' upon them. No one was able to deliver these rogues from his mighty hand.

So similarly, the Son of God shall destroy those who have resisted his grace (Mt. 10:28; 2 Thes. 1:7ff). Unatoned wrongs will be addressed on the final day of history (cf. Lk. 18:7-8; Rom. 12:19; Rev. 6:9-11).

It is intriguing to note that later in chapter 19, the beast and the kings of the earth are represented as being gathered together to make war against the Lord and his armies (v. 19). Some suggest this indicates that the blood cannot be the enemies'; they are alive still. But, as Mounce notes, such an argument ``misunderstands the nature of apocalyptic writing'' (p. 345). The picture emphasizes that the battle is over before it is ever engaged! Such is the Lord's power!

A Shared Victory
The conquering Christ is followed by heavenly armies who also are mounted on white steeds. Moreover, they are clothed in fine linen, pure and white. This celestial army consists of the redeemed, who, by their obedience, have washed their robes in the Lamb's blood, making them white (Rev. 7:14). They share in the Lamb's victory because they were willing to commit their very lives to the Master's cause (cf. 12:10ff).

The Destruction of the Enemy
The weapon employed by the Faithful and True One is that of a sword, a sharp sword, that kept on proceeding from his mouth (v. 15). This is an obvious allusion to his powerful word (cf. Heb. 4:12).

Scripture is replete with references to the incomprehensible power of the spoken word of God. No less than ten times in Genesis 1 Moses employed the verb ``said'' in describing the creative acts by which the universe was fashioned. Later, the Psalmist expressed it like this: ``By the word of Jehovah were the heavens made, and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. . . for he spake and it was done'' (Psa. 33:6,9). In maintaining the world, the writer of Hebrews observes that the Lord Jesus upholds all things ``by the word of his power'' (Heb. 1:3).

And so, at the time of judgment, the Savior will wage no carnal conflict with his enemies; he will merely speak the word, and they will be banished to eternal punishment (cf. Isa. 11:4; 2 Thes. 2:8).

When John describes Christ as ruling his enemies ``with a rod of iron'' (v. 15), the picture is one of crushing judgment. The Psalmist speaks of the conquering role of the Messiah when he says that he shall ``break [his foes] with a rod of iron'' and ``dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel'' (Psa. 2:9; cf. Rev. 2:27). It is interesting that the original term for ``rule'' hints of a shepherd's club, by which he not only destroys the predator, but also saves the flock.

The Messianic-warrior will tread the winepress of ``the fierceness of the wrath of God, the Almighty'' (cf. 16:19). The ``wrath'' of God should not be interpreted in terms of an emotional outburst, as with frail humans; rather, it is a measured response of divine justice to human arrogance and rebellion. Too, it must be viewed against the backdrop of the Creator's amazing love - so hatefully rejected by the masses. In 14:10, the apostle speaks of the ``wine of the wrath of God, unmixed [i.e., undiluted, full strength] in the cup of his wrath.'' This judgment will forever demonstrate that he is KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Meggella:
No one is forcing you to do anything, that's between you and the God you don't believe in.

That is the crux of Christianity, there is no force, it is your decision to come to God or not.

For me, it was not the burning in hell, anyone with lyme can say they are currently burning in hell.....for me it was the Love given to me, yes.......regardless of lyme.
I do think of God as the God of Love as well as having respect for the power of God.

No denying that Christian Evangelicals proselytize.
Conversion is what it's about.
When I get around my niece (bless her dear little sanctimonious heart) it feels like force at times.

The threat of hell fire that I heard in Church in my susceptible childhood, has made me the iconolclast that I am today.

Thanks.

I'm sorry about your home. You guys are taking a real beating down there this hurricane season..wish you the best with the cleanup and rebuilding.

I suppose it is semantics on that point. You have the grand priveledge of marrying two people this weeked..Wow..
I guess what I would see as God speaking "through" man at times like that is what you mean?

I have a hard time when people try to say what God thinks about what's going on in Iraq. That's what I was hung up on.

Or who God is to whom, or that a certain faith makes one better than anyone else. If I believe in a source of energy or light, and I take from that light faith, strenghth and love, true peace and meditation..well..that's about as good as it gets.

Peace out.

Mo

(We can lace up our gloves again now for the next round over Bush.)

3Great, you have a great point about humility. Every campaign year has some people at eachother's throats..but this one is different.

Yes, my children - you may be True Believers in the One God who does indeed have many names...

But you must remember, that He chooses to speak not for Himself, but through mortal men - and those guys, they make mistakes! Hoo boy, do they!

And such egos! They think because He spoke with them, everything they say is from Him! As if!

You must understand, the Bible is merely His word as related through stories told by men. And then those written-down stories were translated by more men, and poorly so if you want my opinion! Ho! Ho! ... er, well, actually it's not that funny.

So, you see, His True Word can only be found in your hearts.
Do not let anyone - no matter what they think their assignment is - tell you that they are the only channel to The Truth.
That's baloney! He speaks to all equally. We must but listen, and act.

Now I must return to my nap. Be Good!

[This message has been edited by Santa (edited 14 September 2004).]

Posts: 12 | From North Pole | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged | 

You are asking excellent questions. I'm no great theologian. I think it's time you get yourself a study bible and read the Old testament and find out about the God of the Jewish people. You see him pretty much commanding the isrealites to wipe out their enemies. He wasn't very P.C., but He had his reasons. He wanted his people pure of heart. He didn't want them mixing and matching religions. He called that idolitary. He promised Abraham's seed a land! He wanted to deliver that promise. It was to be taken by force. They had to trust God that he would win the wars for them! This kinda gives us the false picture of a pretty mean, thunder-bolt throwing God. Well, He blesses those who love and follow him. And, kinda not so nice to those who don't. pretty black and white here.

If you have the calling, then read the New testament. Many of us Christians believe Jesus is the God of Abraham, Issaic and Jacob. He is the Law giver to Moses -- why we call him the Word made flesh. the whole God Head things is kinda hard to explain so let's not get there yet.

So, why then did Jesus come to Earth preaching peace when the Jews of that timne expected their savior to be man of war who will rescue Isreal from Roman rule? Well, He came to show us the Father for one thing (Not a thunder-bolt throwing dude but a loving father who loves his people). We believe that Jesus will come back again a little bit more militant the next time.

This is stuff ya gotta study for yourself. I think you will find it fun and exciting to study on your own! God is your Father. he will home school you if you ask Him to.

quote:

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Originally posted by Lisa in Arizona:
Tree, I appreciate your taking the time to write this out, but I have to admit to you I don't totally understand it. Is there any way you or Sent or someone can explain to me in laypersons words when Jesus approved of war and when he didn't? Or when it was/is ok to kill and when it isn't? Or is it just not that simple?
It seems very confusing to me which is why I asked about it. I have a friend who is of some Christian religion (I think menonite?) and they don't believe in violence under any circumstance. They are complete pacifists which is more my belief.
How can so many have different analyses of the Christian faith? I'm asking because I want to know-not to bait or argue, honest.
Lisa

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I have to say this first.
Its from the apotle Paul in a chapter called Romans. We are right now in the grace age some of the stuff I showed you above is from revelations which is the complteing of the age.

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[5] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile--the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[6]
14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?
-------------------------------------------

Now for you question God speaks to people through bible and his spirit.
If really want to understand ask Jesus to help He will.
He wrote the book through men divinely inspired so why not ask him to help with the understanding of it?

Corinthians 10:4
The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds.

Qoutes
Revelation 17:14
They will make war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will overcome them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings-and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers."
------------------------------------------
Revelation 19:11
I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war.
----------------------------------------
Revelation 19:19
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.
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The above statements are from a chapter called revelations and the person on the horse and the lamb is Jesus.
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The war above started way back when in genesis when satan talked eve and adam into eating the fruit.
He God didnt start the war but will finish it.
-----------------------------------------

Your other ?
How can so many have different analyses of the Christian faith?
--------------->>>>
But most important, study to show yourself approved unto God as a workman that does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth, that is, understanding God's word to you and where you fit in God's plan and purpose.
Thats the reason most"people" fail they do not study the bible in the light. The best thing I think I can tell you is brfore I asked Jesus to save me,When I read the bible it made no sense to me some of oit did but could not grasp it. But after I asked him to save me it was like a light going on and I could see better.
As I found out later

Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

Sin blinds us when you get saved God removes the sins and you see better.All have sinned but Jesus payed the price for us.So that we can be with him and have fellowship actually become part of his family again.

I hope that helped some.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.
-------------------------------

The Bible is pretty clear on what you have to do to have a relationship with Christ: (Romans 10:9-10 NIV) That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. {10} For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.
--------------------------------------

Proverbs 8:17 NIV) I love those who love me, and those who seek me find me.
------------------------------------
Jeremiah 29:13 NIV) You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart.
------------------------------------------
Romans 10:17 NIV) Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
--------------------------------
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

God Bless

Heres a good place to check out. http://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/articles/

Lisa

Great honest question. Part of the "problem" with Christ was that He was a living paradox. He was God and Man at the same time. So while his perfect humanity made perfect sence when He spoke His divinity made no sence at all (God's wisdom is foolishness to men). In understanding this it is easy to see how even His diciples often had a hard time understaning Him, that is why we have quotes from Jesus like "...have I been so long with you and you still don't know who I am.." and the like.

But back on topic. War. When is it "right" to commit acts of agression? Well to ME I find the answer in this: "Greater love has no man than this, that he would lay down his life for his friend" So in defence of another I can raise up in arms, and have putting my life on the line to defend others.

Looking at the "whole council of God" meaning the Old Testament as well as the New Testament is important. Because Christ did not do away with the old but built upon the "sure foundation". We can see in Joshuah, Judges, 1,2, Samuel, 1,2,Kings 1,2,Chronicles, Neihima, Ezra the causes for war and the way that God and his people conduct war. This was often, but not limited to invading forces. There were some pre-empteve strikes, but not everything every King did was "right in the eyes of the Lord".

Jesus is the "Prince of Peace". Yes. No doubt. But that is an inner peace that He give to an individual, because He is also the Lord of Hosts (basically the Ruler of the Army of God) There is a constant Spiritual Battle going on, but there is a time for all things. Eccleasties teaches us that.

So we should strive to live at peace with eachother, but not at the cost of our lives, our freedoms, our nations. Fighting to liberate the defenceless is also called for in the psalms, so even if there were no WMDs freeing these peple from Saddam was enough, some then say well what about the people over here or there. I say lets go there too then.

So it is a hard paradox to discern. When does the price of peace become the mighty warrior?? The twelve wrestled with this very same question Peter even cut off the Roman's ear the night they took him away. All we can do is study, pray and hope we are doing the right thing. I wonder which is worse to do something and have it be wrong or to do nothing and have susuposed to have acted???

For him who knows to do good and does it not, to him it is sin...

I hope this helps, I know this is a truly confusing question and there really is NO simple answer because war and peace often come at great prices.

Sent

Didn't know you were studying Tora. It would have changed my answer or rather HOW I would have answered. guess I should have continued reading all the posts before I replied but I liked the way you asked so much I though I would venture an answer.

So concider this. If Jesus was such a pasifist and peaceful man why do you think He stirred things up like He did? Actually quite the contary is true He was a man of Great confrontation, strict orthodoxy (a pharasiee) and argued like a Yeshiva student. You see him doing this even at a young age when he was left behind at the Temple He was arguing for three days with the scholars before his parents came and got him and all present were astounded at his teachings. They called him a boy so he was not even bar-mitzvaed yet, however they permitted him to speak because he was so strong and so knowledgeable about the Tora. And this wasn't at just any small synogog or an insignifigant Yeshiva it was at THE Temple itself. Chew on that for a while, think of the implications of a twelve year old boy arguing tora/talmud with the top scholars in the world for three days and having them astounded. Quite a feat huh? These were pharisees too, think ulrta orthodox, hasid type.

Quite a long PS isn't it? A non-jew might not get the implications of that but seeing how you are studing Tora/Talmud I though it might intrigue you.

Sent

Do I agree with those guys saying Jesus is coming back Rambo style. Well, the easy answer is yes. But, it takes some understanding first.

Basically, Christianity (and For some part Judism too) is your basic good versus evil scenerio. Either you are for God or against Him. Again, the Bible is not P.C. or even very gray in these matters. Sounds simple. It is. Now, what exactly constitutes being FOR GOD is another issue that will create even greater division (especially amongst Christians) on these threads! I choose to play it safe and not go there.

Basically, Jesus came to help us choose sides. He taught about the Kingdom of God!

But, who is this war against? is it against people? Is it against the Arab empire? Is it against liberals? Is it against Ceos? Is it against Mother-in-laws? Is it against doctors, lawyers and fox news?

Ephes. 6:12 (KJV)
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

Our war is against evil. Pure and simple. Does this all sound very medevil to you. Well, things haven't changed for a few thousand years.

Once Satan is kicked out, there will be peace. Don't worry, even most Christians don't believe in a literal Satan. Well, Satan in sneaky and has an excellent P.R. machine.

Right on about the Humble leaders! Look at the difference between King David (quick to repent) and King Saul! Lord, we need a David in the whitehouse! Too bad ain't one in the race.

As far as I can see, there is nothing we can take from the Bible to see as direct support for the long time War, death, destruction, starvation our administration has waged on the Middle East.

Good, Evil, our involvement and actions past and present, freedom, consequences, results and motivations are not defined, presented, confirmed, or acknowledged in truth..therefore the cruxt of the matter..that this is a "right" and "good" War waged for the greater good, resulting in the greater good, (one example: any decrease in Terror..quite the opposite has happened)..is far from being clear or true.

Our "good" against their "evil" is not clear, is not established, and IMO is entirely subjective,
and God's Word cannot be used to support this situation.

IMO, my best guess, based on what I see..is God is more likely very distraught and saddened by all of this..and perhaps even angry at those men using His name in these actions...

for God as well as Jihad have been used to justify mass murder, destruction, and longtime suffering of innocent people for many, many years..with no truthful intention for good, and clearly no result of it.

American action in the Middle East, in truth and reality, has been abhorrent. It can be argued that as many or MORE deaths of innocents with no resolution or certainly any gain of "peace" have resulted than even at the hands of Saddam Hussein, especially considering our support of him, the sanctions, and now the occupation.

Bottom line is, we are not fighting the "good fight" we are led to believe we are. Both the reasons and the results are cloaked in outright lies.

Many of the death and suffering has resulted in political and financial gains for America.
On top of all that..Al Queda is alive and ever stronger.

I think God is sobbing for ALL of us now.

Mo

I just don't like that Rambo Jesus!

I prefer to read the New Testament and learn
about the new (at his time) moral high road that Jesus spoke of.

Seems to old shoprat that Jesus was more concerned with the after life than wars, and power struggles here on earth.

Yes, he threw the money lenders from the Temple, but that's because they were mixing the spiritual realm with the material--and I have to admit he made a good point.

Televangelists take heed!

But even if I say, "OK, I'll join a Christian Church so I may engage in peaceful prayer"--that Rambo Jesus always rears his head.

I don't know who made the decision to include the Book of Revelation in the final draft, but I wish they had not.

So, since I'll be told I can't pick and choose what parts of the Bible I take to heart, because some grand poobah somewhere will say-- NO! I can't.

I'll will remain agnostic so I will always be able to say--Yes, I can, because I do not call myself a Christian, Jew or Muslim. So I can be as flighty as I want, and I prefer the gentle Jesus who says that the meek shall inherit the earth.

Underneath it all old shoprat's VERY meek. Don't ask for much in this life--roof over head, family safe--food--work-- an occasional cat or dog--trip to the ocean once in awhile.

Injustice hurts me personally tho--always been a problem.
At about 7 or 8 years old, I used to play act that I was a slave girl newly brought to Georgia from west Africa, and I couldn't speak English, and I was beaten for singing the old African songs. Strange for a white kid from the mid-west, eh?
Other kids wanted to play cowboys and Indians. I wanted to play poor children from Bombay (the real India) begging and sleeping on the street. Perhaps this was because my Mom was a social worker, and I'd read her text books sometimes. LOL!

I do what I can in my own little way, but I'd like to see a just government for everyone in our country as well.

I remain optimistic.

sr

(...with most of it)

yes, there are some fundamendalist CHristians like me who are also Democrats.

Oh, man, i really wanted to stay out of this one....... Well, we all have opinions and sometimes we can't help giving them....

Rambo Jesus might have been a harsh analogy. But, to get the New testament we have to look at the Old too. But, yes, first and formeost, God is Love!

quote:

---

Originally posted by shoprat:

I remain optimistic.

sr[/B]

---

You might like this shop.

By: Charles Swindoll

I find it amazing that we as a nation will fight other nations for our national liberty, and that we as a people will if necessary, fight one another for the freedom of those within our borders, but when it comes to the living out of our Christianity, we will give up our liberty without a fight. We'll go to the wall and square off against any enemy who threatens to take away our national freedom, but we'll not be nearly so passionate as Christians under grace to fight for our rightful liberty. Let enough legalists come aboard and we will virtually give them command of the ship. Peace at any price leads to slavery.

If Patrick Henry had the courage to say "Give me liberty or give me death," then the Christian ought to have the courage to say, "Give me freedom because of Christ." Bondage is bondage, whether it is political or spiritual. Give me the liberty that He won at Calvary or I am still enslaved. To live in slavery is to nullify the grace of God.

Grace brings a freedom to enjoy the rights and privileges of being out from under slavery and allowing others such freedom. Its freedom to experience and enjoy a new kind of power that only Christ could bring. It is a freedom to become all that He meant me to be, regardless of how He leads others. That freedom is then released to others so they can be who they are meant to be � different from me! God isn't stamping out little cookie-cutter Christians across the world so that we all think alike and look alike and sound alike and act alike. God is pleased with variety.

Freedom to be who we are is nothing short of magnificent. It is freedom to make choices, freedom to know His will, freedom to walk in it, freedom to obey His leading me in my life and you in your life.

It is a liberty you will have to fight for. Why? Because the ranks of Christianity are full of those who compare and would love to control and manipulate you so you will become as miserable as they are. "Misery loves company" is the legalists' unspoken motto.

The one place on earth where we would most expect to be set free is, in fact, the very place we are most likely to be placed into slavery: the church. Surely, that must grieve our God

I know this is delicate and confusing territory for many of us. I'm confused.
Not so much by your posts, but by others and some of the parallels that have been drawn.

I'd wager your instincts were right on to stear clear of this..

..now..run like the wind!

I appreciate your faith and your insight.

Mo

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lisa in Arizona:
Thanks everyone for your explanations.

I also see very little good in this war. I cannot think of it as a war between good and evil. I do believe in fighting terrorism and protecting ourselves and Israel. But I think we are going about it in the wrong way-creating enemies, creating more terrorists and killing many innocents.

Also I asked several friends of mine about the notion of "Jesus as warrior" and they were shocked to put it mildly.

Right now I'll say a prayer for our country and all other nations involved in this awful war. My prayer is that someday all of us can respect each other's cultural diversity, religious and political differences. That we can have peace and harmony and learn about and live with each other with open-mindedness and kindness. That we can stop the hatred, bigotry and bloodshed. I see many in our country also becoming more hateful, angry, racist and embracing bloodshed and that is sad. I pray for a more mindful, socially conscious country and world for our children. Lisa

---

Lisa thats a nice prayer.

Now - don't shoot me! I did not say this, am only passing on something I read (and no there's no link, because I read it in a magazine or paper, can't even remember where). I am not pro-Bush, but I also don't sit around drawing up possible conspiracy theories. But, this one caught my eye anyway.

Respecting you opinions allow me to suggest this to you. While you are reading you NT and reading the "moral high ground" that Jesus spoke of, please keep in mind that he was building on the foundation of and destroying all that God had done before that point in time.

Mo was it who said, "God is looking down and weeping". But of course. This is not how he would have it, but this is how it has become, so yes I would agree it grieves him. Take King David for example. The Bible calls him a "man after God's own heart". Yet he was a great warrior and won many battles against the enemies of Israel. He desired greatly to build a beautiful temple for The Ark of the Covenant which still was in the tents that Moses had made. David felt it wasn't right that he should dwell in a palace while the presence of God should live in a tent. But God would not allow him to build a Temple, because he had shed too much blood; yet he had shed that blood at God's own command, in defence of God's own land and people. It wasn't until Solomon, David's son took the throne that a Temple was built. Solomon enjoyed a great peace during his reign, but that peace was bought at a great price, the price of many lives.

So while war may be required at times, it is never a joy to God and I hope I didn't give that impression. Christ is a warrior but a Man often does things because he HAS to not because he wants to. Justice demands judgement and God is just as well as merciful. This is why we have the space and time to repent and have all that is offered. Not forced contrition but what a better way for God to show his love for us than to mete out His justice for us on His own Son? How foolish a person to not accept such a generous offer? But this is not a thread about God's grace or His atonment it was about Crist as a Warrior. He is not a pit bull barking on the end of a leash waiting to be let loose from heaven to devour all in His path. None the less He IS King of Kings and Lord of Lords who WILL dole out justice on earth according to perfect righteousness. But be assured of this every chance has been given to mankind to find redemption and salvation, I mean what more can God do than suffer and die Himself???

What if, in fact, He is doling out justice toward American selfish greed and domination, supremecy, favoritism toward the wealthiest countries, with little consideration (and outright abuse) toward other lands and their people..for so long.

I'm not entirely sure it is We
(our Government) who are the ones on His "good side".

Mo

I think as a nation we have been cursed with leaders who consider themselves all powerful and in that respect can do harm to a nation, rather than using that power to solve the problems for the good of mankind they are using their power for their own economic security.

I am as yet unwilling to take the leap of faith to believe that, Sent.

At this point I do not accept Jesus of Nazareth as Messiah. I accept him as martyr and prophet. A man who expanded the tenets of Judaism to all of humanity--opened the possibility of salvation to all-- made us all the chosen people.

Just as the Jews made the giant leap from the God of the Hebrews to the one universal God.
Jesus (or his followers after his death--murky to me) made the giant leap to that anyone, born a Jew or not,may live and die with the grace of the God of Abraham and Isaac.
I think that's very loving.

So, all on my own (I got my own ideas on such metaphysical complexities) I choose to even go further and believe that grace is granted to all humanity--regardless of rigid rituals of conversion--baptism--adult or infant etc. (LOL!! I just etced. the majority of the major religions)
And not even dependant on whether one believes Jesus is God rather than man.
It's just not that important to me to dwell on unearthly power.
If I'm wrong, boy oh boy will I GET IT on Judgement Day!
Sent might be there to say I told you so.

In shoprat's tiny little brain is a grain of a thought of what happens to the spirit after death--no heaven or hell--but I won't share this--it's personal.

Meanwhile back on earth, try to live by the good rules.

Think the camel and the eye of the needle and the rich man story.

Think forgiving tresspasses.

I too am shocked at the agressive posturing of some of the Christians I hear. Of course, look at history--Crusades and all that--nothing new.

Think of humility--for that is what turning the other cheek is. It gives the aggressor a chance to back off and save face. One blow need not escalate to a battle to the death.
Put pride aside--take a risk.
Of course, if the blows continue one must defend oneself.
Martyrdom is not required.

Call this shoprat channeling Jesus.
That's my own PERSONAL Jesus!

Peace out everyone.

Lisa,

Mr. shoprat is Jewish--or he was born and raised Jewish--he doesn't practice now.

I think his bar mitzvah was the last time he set foot in Temple.

I think about religion quite a bit, because we decided to raise our two sons without any.

No baptism, no bris, no bar mitzvah.

It caused some problems with my in-laws, but not much.

My sons seem to have turned out just fine!

They always asked questions when they were kids about the differences in religions, so I'd have to read up to answer thoughtfully.

I was just at a Conservative service last weekend for a special family occasion, and--Wow! The place has changed since my last experience, which was probably 10 or 12 years ago.

Girls were reading the Torah! And toddlers had free run during the service--only to fall asleep on Mom or Dad's lap when they becamde exhausted. They were well behaved, but they just got up and walked around when they felt like it, and they seemed to be encouraged to do so.
Well, in a two hour service it's understandable.
It was pleasant. (wouldn't want to do it every week though) The sermon was interesting.
Lots and lots of chanting and praying.

I've done enough soul searching recently to last me several months.

shoppie

"I am The Way, The Truth and The Life". John 14:6 (Jesus speaking)

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (I Tim. 2:3-6). (Apostle Paul speaking)

"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son: In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the forgiveness of sins" (Col. 1:13,14).
(Apostle Paul speaking)

"But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" (Rom. 5:8,9). (Apostle Paul speaking)
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And now on the lighter side.

Important Recall Notice
The Maker of all human beings is recalling all units manufactured, regardless of make or year, due to the serious defect in the primary and central component of the heart. This is due to a malfunction in the original prototype unit code named Adam and Eve, resulting in the reproduction of the same defect in all subsequent units.

This defect has been technically termed "Subsequential Internal Non-Morality" or more commonly known as SIN, as it is primarily characterized by loss of moral judgment. Some other symptoms are:

(a) Loss of direction

(b) Foul vocal emissions

(c) Amnesia of origin

(d) Lack of peace and joy

(e) Selfish or violent behavior

(f) Depression or confusion in mental component

(g) Fearful

The manufacturer, who is neither liable or at fault for this defect, is providing factory authorized repair and service FREE of charge to correct the SIN defect. [The number to call in your area is F-A-I-T-H. Simply believe that Christ died for your sins, was buried and rose again, and your unit will be regenerated. No matter how big or small the SIN defect is, Christ will repair and replace it with]:

(a) Forgiveness

(b) Love

(c) Joy

(d) Peace

(e) Longsuffering

(f) Gentleness

(g) Goodness

(h) Faith

(i) Meekness

(j) Temperance

Please see operating manual HOLY BIBLE for further details on the use of these fixes. [See sections I Cor. 15:1-4; Eph. 1:7; and Gal. 5:16-26].

WARNING: Continuing to operate the human unit without correction voids the manufacturer's warranty, exposing the owner to dangers and problems too numerous to list and will result in the human unit being permanently impounded. [For free emergency service before it's too late: call upon the Lord Jesus Christ who loved us and gave Himself a ransom for our sins].

DANGER: The human units not receiving this recall action will have to be scrapped in the furnace.

This action was authorized by the Creator.

Please join our prayer circle thread also on Off Topic.

The ability to repent from sin is God's loving grace and mercy. Do you celebrate Yom Kippur? Sin doesn't mean merely robbing banks and orgies, but falling short of God's best. I'd say hating our mother-in-laws, kicking the dog and writing flaming emails are definately short of the Glory of God. If I hurt your felings, I'd repent.

When I was married (Lyme stole that too), and I hurt my wife by an action or a lack or proper action, i was quick to repent. Why? Cause people in relationship do that. We are in relationship with God thus we apologize when we do wrong.

Repenting means turning away from this stuff and turning back to God. Some sins and additctions are hard to break. that's why we need God cause willpower alone usually doesn't cut it.

Yes, religion has made mucho laws and taken us from true fellowship with our Father. The religious laws thatwere man made (Talmud traditions that were not in the bible)were the first Jesus taught to get away from. Christians over the years have made some nasty laws too. There is no excuse.

I suggest you ask your Rabbi about the azezial goat the ancient Jews used to take on their sins. Repenting was and still is a very important part of our (Jewish and Christian) fellowship with God.

This action was authorized by the Creator.

It's the furnace for me then!

Because I won't follow the written rules.

Seems strange that G.W. Bush whose actions have caused the deaths of so many, will be prancing in Paradise with the Angels, while old shoprat who's never physically harmed a single soul will burn in the furnace merely due to lack of a certain personal relationship with the Diety.

Oh well. Hope you righteous ones have fun in heaven--I'll try to do my best not to cause undue harm in the material world.

shoprighteous

They shook their heads at the people who sinned the most during the week and went the most to church and then repeated the whole circle again...not learning a thing..Not all like that...but boy it sure does happen alot now!! Get the big deal done..stab them in the back...run and go to church to wash me of my sins...if it works for ya then at least you get a little praying done.

That's why I live by my Great Aunties'way and am frowned upon by the ones that have perfect attendence at church.

By attending everyday Sunday whenever..I don't think that will mend my heart if because of recall.

I like my heart to reach out in the way my Aunties taught me..with forgiveness, love,Joy,peace,gentleness ,Faith,meek and temperance.

It's got to be released from the state of mind and put into action as a way of living.
Those ladies did just that..what life,what way ,what manner in which they were released from this world I don't know..but I do know in living those FAITH requirements...They HAVE HIT IT BIG!!!!!and they deserve it!!!

quote:

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Originally posted by shoprat:
[b]DANGER: The human units not receiving this recall action will have to be scrapped in the furnace.

This action was authorized by the Creator.

It's the furnace for me then!

Because I won't follow the written rules.

Seems strange that G.W. Bush whose actions have caused the deaths of so many, will be prancing in Paradise with the Angels, while old shoprat who's never phyically harmed a single soul will burn in the furnace merely due to lack of a certain personal relationship with the Diety.

Oh well. Hope you righteous have fun in heaven--I'll try to do my best not to cause undue harm in the material world.

shoprighteous
[/B]

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If W believes that Jesus is God,he will go to heaven--according to THE RULES.

But if I refuse to believe that Jesus is God, no matter how humanitarian I am--no matter how I've sacrificed my own interests for those of others--no matter how hard I try to live my life according to Jesus' generous words--then I burn in hell. (not saying I'm such a wonderful person--it's hypothetical)

Or

If a murderer repents and embraces Jesus as God before his death, he will go to Paradise.

If his victim--say a young mother--who has led a kind and loving life, but maybe she's a Jew or maybe Muslim--or maybe she's just not SAVED (her death coming so suddenly and all)--she will burn in the furnace.

That's the way it works isn't it?

I don't know if all Christian denominations teach this, but it's the basic tenet of all of the Christian Churches I'm familiar with.

This is why I can't be a Christian--in the official sense.
You would call it being a true Christian.
Whether I believe Jesus is man or God--the fate of my eternal soul depends on this--this is what I will never be able to accept.

So, as Huck Finn said, if I have to go to the Bad Place then at least I'll have plenty of company.

My family (not my brother's family tho--they'll be in the
Good Place with you and Sent) will be there with me.

What's so funny 'bout peace luv and understanding? (Elvis Costello)

From:
shoprat on the road to perdition.

You bring up the interesting question that divides many CHristians about "Once saved, always saved".

Does it mean if someone accepts Jesus and lives like a devil, he or she will go to heaven. Is your "salvation" always a given???

I believe not. Many Self professed Christians may have a biiiig surprise at the pearly gates.

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

The answer to the other questions means evangelizing which I don't feel is kosher to do on Lymenet.

1. Although I tried regularly/often, I was unable to "feel" that I had a "personal relationship with God". Bible reading most of the time felt like a chore and apart from the odd "wow", it really was NOT "speaking to me", and I DESPERATELY didn't want it to be that way. I definitely wanted to feel and experience all the wonderful things people were telling me about having a "personal relationship with God". Prayer time, well, I just felt silly sometimes, like I was talking to the four walls.

2. Things were also bothering me like - what about those millions or billions of people in the world who've never even heard of Jesus - do they go to hell by default? Well, I know we're not supposed to have all the answers given to us - but that just seems cruel....not playing fair.

3. Hipocrisy. Nobody's perfect, I know that. (including myself).

4. Being sick, I constantly prayed for a way to get well and find out what was wrong with me for the last decade or so (at the time). People told me that if I "had enough faith" I'd be healed. I was also pretty much encouraged to keep a stiff upper lip and quit whining when I felt I needed to vent about my chronic state of being ill. So, that's a big guilt-trip that's laid on a lot of people - "the reason you're sick is you just don't pray enough, or believe enough, etc".

5. Humans use the Bible (or whatever their religion/book of choice really) as a springboard for war, etc.

At the end of the day though, I do believe in God and that Jesus is some part of that equation. What I do have more of a problem with is that most of christianity seems "fear-based". I know, I was taught then that as long as I accepted Jesus as my saviour, I was GUARANTEED a ticket to eternal life and that all the rules and regulations of being a Christian, were a myth.

However, in reality, there is still the constant fear (of going to hell) and guilt (a result of fear of going to hell). So, in a way it's blackmail (to me).

The Bible. I really don't know, but I do tend to believe that some part (large or small, Idon't know) is not God-breathed, but human opinion and a way for the humans at the time to get people on board (by using fear of hell, etc) and to get them to behave well (for fear of going to hell).

I know things aren't that simplistic, but I am now in a hurry and tired.

But, I do wonder what happens to someone like myself, who once accepted Jesus as saviour, etc, but now is not "following the rules" by the book, or even opening the book. Is my ticket to heaven still good (my church told me it would be forever once I'd professed faith - EVEN IF I later murdered someone as I'd already been forgiven for my sins, past and future).

Shoppie, I'd be more than honored to meet you in THE BAD LANDS along with HUCK!BY GOLLY!

..so if I want to do my spiritual thing my way ...so be ..it ..at least I'm doing it and not keeping it pented up in my MIND!! I'm LIVIN IT!and I don't think I will be passed over when the time comes..my heart is not heavy with hypocracy or evil.

This one has always puzzled me??? Is it really Gambling in disguise or does it really provide the needed funds for the districts that thrive on that income to provide need services?

My half-sister is born Jewish, identifies herself as a Jew, but is not a practicing or religious Jew.

Her childrens father was a non-Jew - they are divorced and HATE each other now.

What I cannot understand is my sisters views. She is half-heartedly raising her kids Catholic (even though there are no Catholics in the family on either side - fine!).

It is as if she's bought an off-the-shelf religion because she says "she believes they should have a religion" - obviously totally missing the point of it.

She does not know or teach them anything about Catholicism at home nor do they attend church, but my niece has recently had her communion, which my sister made a big hoo-haa about when the rest of the relatives were thinking "what on EARTH is she doing" as she's not a believer herself. Not that anyone considers Catholics or Catholicism a problem - BUT, it is obvious to everyone else that this (religion/faith) is not something you can "arrange" or "buy" for someone else, not even your children. ESPECIALLY, when they have no adults around them to speak with or identify with, with the same faith.

OK< off my soapbox now on that one.

I've been too achy to do much..herxing so you have added enjoyment to the day..

I would rather dwell on His blessings in my life and those He has for others. Paul taught that it is His kindness that leads us to repentance. Catholics are a WHOLE other thread,,,,,lets not go there.

Happy NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!

In any event, I feel blessed he is treated for sure..for absolute sure..

but he has appendicitus it seems, I will be out for a while..but am on tonight on OT tonight standing watch for any increased pain.

Just was reading this and felt compelled to say that this thread has gotten into some great discussion and points, IMO..

I like this..when the threads go long and deep..they used to do this more often..good discussion.

Peace Out..

Mo