When we were teenagers and early twenties - I was living it up, while she was going to church and drinking coca-cola for fun (I was drinking stronger stuff).... She was very religious (and I don't mean that so much in the ritual-religious sense as just a devout Christian).

When she was 23, she just dropped out of church/organized Christianity. She essentially came to the same conclusions about it as I much later have (after I joined the church and then un-joined, see my other post on other countries want Bush out).

Even though she dropped out of church, she said she still "had her faith" and believed in God but could not agree with a lot of things and did not like the narrow-minded ness of those in her church she'd spent years with.

Fast forward to last week. She's died 10 months ago. She died not a "practising, church-going-Christian" but one who still retained her faith (she said) without being active I guess you could say. (no church going etc). And, she'd committed her share of sinning in the last 10 years (sex before marriage essentially).

I got a call from her mother, my aunt, the other day. She has been to a psychic medium this past weekend. I've always been a bit sceptical on that topic also, especially after I found Christianity myself, and then again leaving it in away - I am still stuck with the feeling that if I ever went to a psychic I would go to hell (or even if I read any non-christian spirituality books, etc). I have been to several psychics in the past, but after joining and quitting the church the fear-thing has stuck with me in that department for some reason.

After the conversation with my aunt, about her session with this medium - I cannot help but be convinced that A. it is real and her soul is obviously still out there and speaking to us and B. there is an afterlife even for those who've turned away from organised Christianity.

The things that were said (and my aunt has it all on cassette tape) could have come from none other than my deceased cousin. They were not predictions or anything, but more about herself when she was alive and how she died, etc.

(OK< my christian friends would say that the source of this information/voice is the devil - that's always an answer when I challenge them)......My cousin essentially expressed that she's happy and settled and has a "job to do" in her new world. She even said she goes to church, but that it's not like church on earth.

Going back a bit now - about 3 days after she died last year - I turned on the radio in the car and got this weird feeling that the next song was for me from her. When it started playing it was James Taylor - "You've Got a Friend". It made me cry, but I also did not understand why THIS particular song made me cry or why it would be directed to me from her - even though I really felt it was.

After that, every time I think of her, that song pops into my head. It is a song which I've never been "into", nor my cousin who was younger - as far as I knew.

Recently, when I spoke with my aunt and told her this "story" about this song, she just said "She was always singing that song when she was alive". (well, I'd never heard her sing it but then in recent years we didn't get to see each other much).

During my aunt's session with the medium, my cousin had apparently said/sent the message that she's been sending tunes/music to people to comfort them. Also dolphins, and that's a whole nother story - but essentially some dolphins appeared in a very unexpected place right after her death, in the river of a city where my aunt had flown as my cousin was at the morgue there. My aunt couldn't believe her eyes seeing these dolphins jumping out of the river. She asked a local man if there were dolphins in the river and he'd answered "folklore has it that if anyone sees a dolphin in the river it's a message from the dead". She also asked at reception of her hotel - they just laughed at her and said she could not possible have seen dolphins there.

There were a number of other things she went into, but none would be interesting to any of you. But, it was enough to convince me. Of course, there is now an underlying feeling that perhaps it was just the devil speaking - see the church has had this effect on me.

When I was a church member I even chucked ALL my books, and I had many, on medication, spirituality etc because I was told that to keep them was BAD. Just like psychics are BAD and going to them is BAD.

So, is it really bad?

Has anyone had a similar experience with a loved one?

Here is one interesting thing to consider, while it was considered a sin of his Saul did consult a medium and did contact the soul of Samuel who then promptly rebuked him for it. Scared the begeezes out of the "witch" because she then realised it was Saul who she had in her room and he had ordered the death of all mediums.

Just something to think about. I have heard all sorts of agruements about this and what it "really" is. My thinking is when we get there we can ask Him. But for Christians it is one of the things that is discouraged, but remember we are under grace and not law so nothing is actualy FORBIDDEN again one of the paradoxes of Christianity, But I am too tired to get into it. Read 1 John about sin for insight into the subject also note in Ezekiel, I think 18, where the new covenant is where the law is written on your mind and your inner parts. With true salvation God's desires become yours and are not superimposed upon you so the idea is that you don't want to do those things that are displeasing to God....But how did I get off on that, crimminy I am tired...g'night

Also remember there were real prophets of God.
But there abilities to predict were from God.
They use to stone false prophets pretty serious offense I would say.

I tried desperately for a long time to look for answers through praying and the Bible - either no answers arrived or I was/am unable to interpret them because as I said in my other thread - I failed unlike some people to ever feel God was speaking to me through his Bible, or through anything else.....I felt the whole personal relationship with God concept was empty for me because I felt like this did not apply to me - I did not feel God.....I find it hard enough to have relationships with people and to have one with someone/something invisible - well, I felt just plain silly to be honest. I've given it up. As I said, I still believe in God, but I don't feel comfortable with "forced" bible reading (even though I didn't want it to feel forced, it always did), etc.

But, who does God consider to be the sinners (everyone, I know) but the most sinful - the customer or the psychic?

Anyway, I went into more of my personal experience and opinions on all that in another thread on here yesterday.

Nevertheless, your comment is appreciated and I know, well-meaning.

DLL

We look up and down and over and under all around NO BUBBA.

The next morning,as I was waking up,I had an extremely clear Vision..I could see the little rascal sitting on a porch surrounded by people,the house was brick,sat on a hill not to far from where I was living.As a matter I fact we called it the Wino house...that is what usually occurred there during all hours of the day.

I called out to my hubby...Get in the car,,I know where Bubba is ..I saw it.

Well lo and behold as we drove up to the house of wine and sin...there he sat..having a big time ..eating up all the attention sitting beside lady love Lucy dog.

I know by now you are thinking this one has done lost her marbles...it really did happen and I am still in awe that such a thing occured in the manner it did.

I can't see how it can be wrong, or from an evil source if you hear a song that gives you comfort and it reminds you of your cousin. Isn't that just a reminder of what we are all striving for, continuing on into our next life. You're not seeking this out (like going to a medium), so I don't see how you have done anything wrong.

Christ's birth was hailed by three Chaldean Astrologer's, you can call them wise men if you want, but they were astrologers. They read the signs in the sky, they didn't look to the skies in divination. G-d wanted the signs read, it was a natural occurance.

Tarot cards, astrology, etc. aren't bad per say, it is when people depend on them as gospel that it becomes a problem. When things out of your control happen and they are of a supranatural nature, your having a gnostic experience. Not a bad thing, what better anchor to a belief system than a G-d moment. I think you're blessed.

I know many wonderful Christians who can not attend church for whatever reason. It doesn't make them any less in the eyes of G-d. Maybe it was a good thing you left that Church. A church is only as healthy as its congregation. Sometimes it might be better to leave a church if you think they have lost the way.

You're cousin has been coming to you without you going to a medium. I'm not a big fan of mediums. I have a problem with any supranatural occurences which can be performed at will. Just like I don't believe ghosts appear on schedule. These things happen naturally and case specific, if we are open to them. I bet you feel reassured after you hear that song.

I don't think you've lost your marbles at all.

In fact, in about May-time last year, six months before my cousin died - I woke up feeling "sick" because I'd just had the most awful dream and I just wanted to "snap out of it".

I dreamt my cousin had died and I was going to her funeral. (same cousin).

Little did I know.........

Thanks for that insightful post.

quote:

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Originally posted by dontlikeliver:
Hi Treepatrol,

I tried desperately for a long time to look for answers through praying and the Bible - either no answers arrived or I was/am unable to interpret them because as I said in my other thread - I failed unlike some people to ever feel God was speaking to me through his Bible, or through anything else.....I felt the whole personal relationship with God concept was empty for me because I felt like this did not apply to me - I did not feel God.....I find it hard enough to have relationships with people and to have one with someone/something invisible - well, I felt just plain silly to be honest. I've given it up. As I said, I still believe in God, but I don't feel comfortable with "forced" bible reading (even though I didn't want it to feel forced, it always did), etc.

But, who does God consider to be the sinners (everyone, I know) but the most sinful - the customer or the psychic?

Anyway, I went into more of my personal experience and opinions on all that in another thread on here yesterday.

Nevertheless, your comment is appreciated and I know, well-meaning.

DLL

---

The carnal mind and the flesh need to be shed which is its self hard at times dont give up this is a race run a good one keep on trying.

Talk to God he is listening but remember answers you get or dont percieve to get are answers not always what you want to here. So alot of times we just ignore them.
Remember its all faith.

Your saved by grace through faith. Good luck DLL

As for the psychic stuff--it's real enough--just look what Yogis can do. I think it's a natual part of humanity.

MYy youngest son always knows when something is wrong with me--physically or spiritually, and he will call and ask about it.
He lives in San Francisco--old shoprat's back east.
He's always right too. Even if it's something I don't care to talk about, I let him know he's right, but it's no biggie and I can handle it.
He's a great comfort to me. He can do the same with his brother, but not Papa shoprat.

Well, he's a very strong willed man. Difficult to enter his subconscious--hard nut to crack.

Interesting subject.
I have one slight talent. It's by no means fool proof--so I never tell anyone--but if I dream that someone I know is pregnant or about to become a parent, or if I dream they have a newborn baby--that person often becomes ill or even dies.

If I dream that a person I know becomes ill or dies, then often I wiil soon learn that a blessed event (baby)is on the way.

The State of the Dead

1. How did we get here in the first place?
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ans: God made us from the dust in the beginning

2. What happens when a person dies?
Gen 3:17-19 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed [is] the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat [of] it all the days of thy life; (18) Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; (19) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou [art], and unto dust shalt thou return.

Ecc 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

Ans: The body turns to dust again, and the spirit goes back to God, who gave it. The spirit of every person who dies - whether righteous or wicked - returns to God at death.

3. What is the ``spirit'' that returns to God at death?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Job 27:3 All the while my breath [is] in me, and the spirit of God [is] in my nostrils;

Ans: The spirit that returns to God at death is the breath of life (re-read Gen 2:7). Nowhere in all of God's word does the ``spirit'' have any life, wisdom, or feeling after a person dies. It is the ``breath of life'' and nothing more.

4. What is a soul? Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Ans: A soul is a living being. A soul is always a combination of two things: body plus breath. A soul cannot exist unless body and breath are combined. God's Word teaches that we are souls.

5. Do souls die? Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Eze 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Rev 16:3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead [man]: and every living soul died in the sea.

Ans: According to God's Word, souls do die! We are souls, and souls die. Man is mortal:

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Only God is immortal:
1Ti 6:14-16 That thou keep [this] commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: (15) Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; (16) Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom [be] honour and power everlasting. Amen.

The concept of an undying, immortal soul goes against the Bible, which teaches that souls are subject to death.

6. Do good people go to heaven when they die?

Joh 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, (29) And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Act 2:29 Men [and] brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.

Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Job 17:13 If I wait, the grave [is] mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.

Ans: No, people do not go either to heaven or hell at death. They go to their graves to await the resurrection day : 1Th 4:13-18 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. (14) For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. (15) For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive [and] remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (18) Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

7. How much does one know or comprehend after they die?

Ecc 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

Ecc 9:10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do [it] with thy might; for [there is] no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Psa 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Psa 146:3-4 Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help. (4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Ans: God says that the dead know absolutely nothing.

8. But can't the dead communicate with the living, and aren't they aware of what the living are doing?

Job 14:12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens [be] no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Job 14:21 His sons come to honour, and he knoweth [it] not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth [it] not of them.

Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any [thing] that is done under the sun.

Ans: No, the dead cannot contact the living, nor do they know what the living are doing. They are dead. Their thoughts have perished (Re-read Psalms 146:4).

Jesus called the unconscious state of the dead ``sleep'': Joh 11:11-14 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (12) Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well. (13) Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. (14) Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

Death is a state of total unconsciousness.

10. What happens to the righteous dead at the second coming of Christ?
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

1Th 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive [and] remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Co 15:51-53 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (53) For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal [must] put on immortality.

Ans: The righteous will be raised to life and given immortality at Jesus' second coming.

11. What was the Devil's first lie?
Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

Ans: Satan told Eve that sin would not bring death. ``Ye shall not surely die'', he said.
12. Why did the Devil lie to Eve about death? Could this subject be more important than many think?

Ans: It is one of the cornerstones of the devil's kingdom. He has worked powerful miracles down through the ages through people who claim to receive their power from the spirits of the dead. Read about the magicians of Egypt in Exodus Ch 7, and the Witch of Endor in 1 Samuel 28:3-25, and notice in verse 14 that Saul PERCEIVED that the spirit brought up out of the ground was Samuel: 1Sa 28:14 And he said unto her, What form [is] he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he [is] covered with a mantle. And Saul PERCEIVED that it [was] Samuel, and he stooped with [his] face to the ground, and bowed himself.

Just because the spirit looked like Samuel does not mean that it was Samuel

Read about the sorcerers in Daniel 2:2; read about the damsel in Acts 16:16-18.

2Co 11:13-15 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. (14) And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. (15) Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Notice in 2 Corinthians 11, that demons will pose as godly loved ones who have died, and saintly clergyman who are now dead, or even Bible prophets or apostles of Christ. Those who believe the dead are alive, in any form, will most assuredly be deceived.

13. Do devils really work miracles?
Rev 16:13-14 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs [come] out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, [which] go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect.