To me..Rumsfeld's answers are NOT
good enough for our men and women in Iraq!

This really steams me, and should anyone concerned about the soldiers. Take a look at the conditions and comments made in return.
Keep on mind they've known this for over a year.

All over the news today..

Mo

December 8, 2004
Iraq-Bound Troops Confront Rumsfeld Over Lack of Armor
By ERIC SCHMITT

AMP BUEHRING, Kuwait, Dec. 8 - In an extraordinary exchange at this remote desert camp, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld found himself on the defensive today, fielding pointed questions from Iraq-bound troops who complained that they were being sent into combat with insufficient protection and aging equipment.

Specialist Thomas Wilson, a scout with a Tennessee National Guard unit scheduled to roll into Iraq this week, said soldiers had to scrounge through local landfills here for pieces of rusty scrap metal and bulletproof glass - what they called "hillbilly armor" - to bolt on to their trucks for protection against roadside bombs in Iraq.

"Why don't we have those resources readily available to us?" Specialist Wilson asked Mr. Rumsfeld, drawing cheers and applause from many of the 2,300 troops assembled in a cavernous hangar here to meet the secretary. Mr. Rumsfeld responded that the military was producing extra armor for Humvees and trucks as fast as possible. (????)

A few minutes later, a soldier from the Idaho National Guard's 116th Armor Cavalry Brigade asked Mr. Rumsfeld what he and the Army were doing "to address shortages and antiquated equipment" National Guard soldiers heading to Iraq were struggling with.

Mr. Rumsfeld seemed taken aback by the question and a murmur began spreading through the ranks before he silenced them. "Now settle down, settle down," he said. "Hell, I'm an old man, it's early in the morning and I'm gathering my thoughts here."

He said all organizations had equipment, materials and spare parts of different vintages, but he expressed confidence that Army leaders were assigning the newest and best equipment to the troops headed for combat who needed it most.

Nonetheless, he warned that equipment shortages would probably continue to bedevil some American forces entering combat zones like Iraq. "You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time," Mr. Rumsfeld said.

Moreover, he said, adding more armor to trucks and battle equipment did not make them impervious to enemy attack. "If you think about it, you can have all the armor in the world on a tank and a tank can be blown up," he said. "And you can have an up-armored Humvee and it can be blown up."

It was difficult to gauge the scope and seriousness of the equipment problems cited by the two soldiers and by several others in interviews after Mr. Rumfeld's remarks and the question period. A senior officer in Specialist Wilson's unit, Col. John Zimmerman, said later that 95 percent of the unit's more than 300 trucks had insufficient armor.

Senior Army generals here said they were not aware of widespread shortages and insisted that all vehicles heading north from this staging area 12 miles south of the Iraqi border would have adequate armor. "It's not a matter of money or desire," Lt. Gen. R. Steven Whitcomb, the commander of Army forces in the Persian Gulf, told the troops after Mr. Rumsfeld asked him to address Specialist Wilson's question. "It's a matter of the logistics of being able to produce it."

But the complaints voiced by the soldiers here are likely to reinvigorate the debate that the Bush administration failed to anticipate the kind of tenacious insurgency now facing troops in Iraq, and that the Pentagon is still struggling to provide enough such basic supplies as body armor and fortified Humvees and other vehicles.

In October, members of an Army Reserve unit disobeyed orders to deliver fuel to a base in Iraq, complaining that their vehicles had not been properly outfitted. Earlier this month, the Army raised its goal for replacing regular Humvee utility vehicles in Iraq with armored versions, to 8,000 vehicles from 4,000.

The soldiers' concerns here may also rekindle deep-held suspicions among many National Guard and Reserve troops that they are receiving equipment inferior to what their active-duty counterparts get, despite assurances from senior Army officials that all Army troops are treated equitably.

Some 10,000 soldiers, many of whom are reservists from Oregon, Pennsylvania, Georgia, Tennessee and North Carolina, are here on their way to one-year tours in Iraq or passing through this camp on their way home after serving their stints.

That some soldiers would dare confront Mr. Rumsfeld directly on the readiness and equipment issue in such a public setting was highly unusual. In his town-hall style meetings with troops, Mr. Rumsfeld usually gets general policy questions or very specific complaints about pay or benefits.

But in interviews afterward, the equipment issue resonated with many soldiers and commanders here. Specialist Blaze Crook, 24, from Cleveland, Tenn., said he and other members of his Tennessee National Guard felt shorthanded going into their mission in Iraq. "I don't think we have enough troops going in to do the job," said Specialist Crook, who is a truck driver.

In an interview, Specialist Wilson said the question he asked Mr. Rumsfeld was one that had been on the minds of many men in his unit, the 1st Squadron, 278th Regimental Combat Team. "I'm a soldier and I'll do this on a bicycle if I have to, but we need help," said Specialist Wilson, 31, who served on active duty in the Air Force for six years, including in the 1991 Persian Gulf war, before leaving the military, and then re-enlisting in the National Guard after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

Col. John Zimmerman, the staff judge advocate for the 278th combat team, said in an interview that the unit's Humvees were sufficiently armored, but that most of its heavy trucks were not. He said that Army supply officials had given the unit 70 tons of steel plates to attach to their vehicles, but that it was not enough.

Colonel Zimmerman suggested that the Army would not have let this happen to an active-duty unit about to deploy into Iraq. "We've got two Armies," he said. "We've got the active-duty and we've got the National Guard. We're proud to serve. We just want what everyone else has. We're not asking for anything more."

When asked about the soldiers' complaints, General Whitcomb's deputy, Maj. Gen. Gary Speer, acknowledged in an interview that many vehicles would head north from here into Iraq without the bulletproof windshields or the Kevlar flooring that protect against bombs exploding underneath Humvees or trucks. General Speer said many vehicles were not armored because they would be assigned duties inside headquarters compounds where there was virtually no threat of roadside bombs.

General Speer said a special unit here at Camp Buehring removes the extra armor on vehicles that have left Iraq and re-attaches it to vehicles going into the country. "We've got a lot of work to do," he said. "There's a lot of people working around the clock to meet the concerns those soldiers raised."

Colonel Zimmerman said he appreciated the efforts by Army supply officials here, but he and his troops said they could not help but fume at the sight of the fully "up-armored" Humvees and heavy trucks set out on display here for Mr. Rumsfeld's visit.

"What you see out here isn't what we've got going north with us," he said.

Copyright 2004

The topic is the issue of the best army in the World suffering neglect from the best Defence Council in the World..these are concerns voiced by our men and women going to and from Iraq.

Hopefully anyone choosing to post on the thread will stay on point from here on in, without derrogatory or inflammatory comments toward any individual.

Mo

With all of the proper paper work and all of the red tape they have to go thru it would take plenty of time to get the right parts anyway.

Man ,those guys are something,using whatever parts to make it better.Figures,the top brass,and big wigs,wouldn't know a nut from a bolt.That must be really frustrating!And the homefront protestors are bad for moral?

Now, before we hear it,yes it is being said that an embedded reporter was there assisting with the questions.Spec.Wilson's wife was on TV and said she did not care and only wanted answers.Yes.That would be the right thing.

Logistics?Being able to produce it?Well, Rummy,should have weighed this into the war equation.BULL!

This in unbelievable, they have heard these complaints for over a year..and the fact that our men and women have lost limbs and lives due to completely inadequate equipment is criminal neglect, IMO.

That on top of the fact they are asking our military to excecute this "mision" with too few troops.

quote:

---

Originally posted by 24bit:
Here we go again.

---

They've been complaining for a long time, and will get louder and heard more now, I hope.

This is the first confrontation direct to the top PUBLICLY, and widely publicized.

For them to have rallied behind this question at the conferance speaks volumes.

Allit of these kinfds of problems our troops suffer has been borne out of his and the admin's assurances from the get go that they could glide through this thing with relatively light military personnel and equipment.

Rumsfeld and Bush and Co. talk allot about supporting our troops..someone should have pointed out to them earlier that part of that would mean respecting them and telling them the truth.

Mo

if you want to make a buck off the pentagon and support the troops at the same time here is the info.

hot tip!!!

Stock Symbol : AH
Name : Armor Holdings
Last : 42.88 per share
Change : +5.18%

http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=AH

�

quote:

---

Originally posted by Pepster:
I stay away three days on purpose because of all of the negativity and mean spiritedness. Now I log on and look at this--the very first post I open. Unbelievable.

---

A serious faux pas for the Bush admin....it was a great setup by the guy asking the question. Apparently he was asked to ask that question by a newspaper!

Don't ya just love watching a politican squirm when they are caught? Rumsfeld looked pathetic....

These people should be kept as safe as they possibly can - this should have been taken care of within months of the invasion....
cootiegirl

Yes. This is unacceptable.

Almost as outrageous is that the likes of Rush Limbaugh and all IMMEDIATELY balked about the idea of the question being "planted"..

Pointing fingers at THAT..unbelievable.

The FACT is the guys are with very poor equipment .. this has been known and complained about for a long time..and regardless of where the question came from..2000 some odd troops responded with applause... anger and concern.

Hundreds of our soldiers have been injured and/or died BECAUSE of this..and Rumsfeld's insensitivity when they confronted him..
the statements on how they will get more vehicles over there NOW..(only now that it has become "public") is dispicable.

Thr White House also acting as though they just found out about this. They have KNOWN, the humvee manufacturers are sitting here saying they could have had the stuff over there..but NO ONE ordered it.

A shaving off RNC spending for the convention and countless other spending prorities could have taken care of this. What gives?

It is a striking example about how out of hand political rhetoric has gotten in the far Right media response (they guys don't matter..it's that darn reporter who got them to speak up who's the problem!), and another example of how poorly planned this War has been for our soldiers on the frontlines.

Bush's comments have been unreal..
each one tagged with the catch phraze "as they fight for freedom and peace"..

My @$$.

Disclaimer: This is a rant toward our admin..not anyone here.

Mo

This subject means a great deal to me. I am herxing terribly so my mind is limited but I also am really concerned that our troops don't have all they need. I have been trying to read up on this and gonna read more.

I understand that alot of money has been alloted towards this, it is in the works. That it is a matter of manufaturing right now. Before you jump I am not saying this is all correct. I still have alot of digging to do. I am aware that many feel that it should have been anticipated that it would have been needed sooner. Probably right. I am gona look some more when my brain can read more.

But the implications beyond that are imoportant as well.

The point diven by some who say "if we don't support the administration, we are not supporting the troops"

..."the administration is not supporting our troops, as voiced by the troops themselves, not just on this major issue, but also on the planning and executiion of this "War", and lack of sufficient troops to accomplish these "plans"

..not to metion the lies around going in.

Soldiers have been telling their Generals for over a year that the vehicles they have, and have been forced to cover with what they refer to as "hillbilly armour" are putting their lives in danger..just the fact that they are using these instead of armoured vehicles and they drive through areas where road bombs are set..and the generals have told Washington.

The administration has been alerted, and contacted..for over a year.

The fact that there is no response until the public knew is an outrage. This has been kept from the media, and military FAMILIES have been sending their loved ones what equipment they can locate here by mail for personal protection. (vests and other)

Months ago, that story did make it to the media where that troops on a mission to travel a dangerous route in Iraq, refused to go. They flat out refused a mision because they had these "hilbilly armour" trucks and would not risk their lives because of it. This was months ago. The problem was not restricted to their group, and many military Generals have spoken out.

What is MIND BOGGLING is that this is the very same admin who aserts this mission is for American and Iraqui freedom and Peace..
as well as [THE WAR AGAINST TERROR?[/i]

That is it SOO important that we had to bag the UN, and go it alone.

That is is SOO important, and yet, they will not admit that they assured the troops this would be a short stay, with "smart bombs"..and now the soldiers are on foot in a guirilla style battle, with their stays extended well beyond their limit, AND this equipment being given them to use under conditions where road bombs are common.

Why in the world is this administration building 15 permanent military bases (and thier cohorts profitting off them) in Iraq..and yet has not funded the military to protect the soldiers fighting there for the past YEAR?!

We should be fighting for our soldiers. They fight for us with their lives on the line.

As one soldier said above "I'd do this on a bicycle"..and then went on to cite the danger and the concerns.

Do they deserve any of this?

Do they deserve to be lied to, set up, sent in to fight Terror that is not the terror that threatens America..stuck fighting insurgents in what they see as a Holy War protecting their homeland..
with nothing but regular humvees to do it in?

Cindy, yes they say we could have bought, or manufactered..all of the needed equipment.
NO one ordered it.

Mo

Here's the response from Rumsfeld to the troops initially, at the first PUBLIC confrontation, unreal:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mo:
"Now settle down, settle down," he said. "Hell, I'm an old man, it's early in the morning and I'm gathering my thoughts here."

"You go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time," Mr. Rumsfeld said.

Moreover, he said, adding more armor to trucks and battle equipment did not make them impervious to enemy attack.
"If you think about it, you can have all the armor in the world on a tank and a tank can be blown up," he said. "And you can have an up-armored Humvee and it can be blown up."

It was difficult to gauge the scope and seriousness of the equipment problems cited by the two soldiers and by several others in interviews after Mr. Rumfeld's remarks and the question period. A senior officer in Specialist Wilson's unit, Col. John Zimmerman, said later that 95 percent of the unit's more than 300 trucks had insufficient armor.

---

That's a new and interesting angle

I don't think concern over the War our country is in, as the soldiers and their families and Iraquis suffer profoundly.. exactly qualifies as an "obsession"..

I'd find it disturbing if many Americans felt the way you do about what's going on.
That it's better to ignore it.
..most of us, ill or not..are better off than they are at this time.

Rather than an (albeit slippery) repeated attempt to degrade and dismiss, why can you not either address the topic, or scroll on by? Anyone not wishing to deal with current events certainly has that choice.

Mo

Is there no end to this madness?

I agree, there is a long line of mind boggling, simply terrible short sited ecomomic choices made by this admin that go beyond the hit our country suffered from Terrorist attacks..

We had a 5 trillion dollar surplus, now, as much a deficit.

There have been numerous policies enacted that have contributed to this, NOT just the "War".. NOT all having to do with the effects of 911. In fact, most of the destructive economic policies by Bush admin have nothing to do with 911.

At the same time, within the War costs, they are building fifteen permanent military bases in Iraq,

..and yet did not pay to protect the soldiers for the past year.. of whom they demand double and tripple time tours from, to accomplish something in Iraq that is near impossible given the lack of manpower and equipment..not to mention based on lies and setting back our standing in the World considerably.

Meantime, the threat of Terror attack remains stronger than ever.

Mo