the sheeple, I mean people - should just take the White House's word for it.

Sorry, they lost that priveledge by lieing continuously to us and the rest of the world, resulting in massive death and destruction.

Me thinks they may not be a credible source?

The specific points of their Iraq success advirtisement speak for themselves.
Sheer propaganda.

Mo

SOCIETY
I see praise for a 'democratic' new gov. No mention is made that Christians were not allowed to run for office. Jews were not allowed to run for office or vote.

SCHOOLS
I see that School supply kits have been distributed to 1.5 million secondary school students, 808,000 primary school students and 81,735 primary school teachers."

What about American kids?? Sorry, but I could care less about funding Iraqi schools.

RECONSTRUCTION
"More than 77,000 public works jobs have been created through the National Employment Program."

Again, I ask...what about Americans?? Take care of your own first.

REBUILDING OF ISLAM
"The army was persuaded to pump an estimated $50,000 into reviving the mosque, hiring local Iraqis from the town of Taji to replace wiring, plumbing, doors and windows and landscaping the spacious courtyard. The result is an attractive but humble place Maj. Mohammed hopes will help Iraqis and Americans alike in better understanding each other."

What a minute!? Does the US Gov. fund individual places of worship here in the US?? Of course not. That is not the role of the US Gov. Nor should the American taxpayers pay for this building.

Americans have (for some reason) bought into the idea that if we put ourselves first, somehow that is inhumane, unfair, and alas 'unamerican'.

I assure you, Italy puts Italy first. Germany puts Germany first--and on and on.

I have no problem if individual Americans want to spend their money (and spill their blood) to help another country.

but it is not the responsibility of Americans to rebuild roads (destroyed by other countries),

rebuild schools (that teach Jews and Christians are dogs and pigs),

pay for schooling (while there are American kids who could use 'school kits'),

and pay for private worship areas (strictly forbidden in the US).

** All of this, while we have FAILED to get the person who even was responsible for 9/11.

Where is Osama? Do we know?? Do we even care??

I think if you asked the average American, they would tell you that Iraqi's flew the planes into the WTC.

this is the news from iraq i recieved im MY email this morning, from a (SADISTIC) relative - can't say anything for the source (the guardian), but here it is:

~~~ Gunmen take over Ramadi as bomb kills five marines

Rory Carroll in Baghdad and Osama Mansour in Ramadi
Friday June 17, 2005
The Guardian

Insurgents have taken over much of the Iraqi city of Ramadi and used it to launch attacks against US forces while terrorising the population with public beheadings.
A huge bomb killed five American marines yesterday and showered body parts on to rooftops, fuelling suspicion that armour-piercing technology is being developed and tested in Ramadi.

US troops recovered the remains and withdrew to their base outside the Arab Sunni stronghold, leaving masked gunmen to erect checkpoints and carry out what residents said was the latest of many executions.

A man described as an Egyptian spy was beheaded and his body dumped on a busy shopping street. Warned by the killers to leave it for five days, shoppers pretended not to notice the figure in the brown robe, its head resting on its back.

Four days ago two suspected Shia militiamen were beheaded in the marketplace in full view of traders, said a senior police officer who asked not to be identified. Two boys played football with one of the heads, he added.

Ramadi, 70 miles west of Baghdad, became an insurgent citadel soon after Saddam Hussein's regime fell two years ago. US and Iraqi forces claimed to have quelled it in February during Operation River Blitz, a sweep through restive towns and cities in Anbar province. ~~~

well it is news, right? for anyone reading that does not realize, ramadi is where MY son is (and many other mothers' sons and daughters are). he is IN that city every day, currently doing search and destroy of explosives and weapons caches, mainly roadside bombs.

his unit is assigned to the 2nd brigade marines, the ones in the above article, btw. also, a soldier in his battalion, (different company) was just killed and another critically injured last week while on a convoy security mission.

i am not trying to shut anyone's discussions down here, or to turn it into a discussion about my Chad. i just want to ground things a little and remind that there is true EVIL there. also that rosy as any publicist can make things sound re how well things are going, we must not forget the RAVAGES of war.

we did not cause this stuff by our occupation. the iraqi people (not all of them) have LIVED this way for ages. how else could they "ignore" a beheaded 'body' (PERSON!) in the parking lot of a busy shopping center for 5 days? that stuff has been part of their whole lives. they are used to that kind of violence and intimidation. how horrific.

just read that article 10 minutes ago, and am still reeling, so will leave further discussion to the rest of you. afraid i will start biting... frankly i don't see how anyone can draw any solid, clear conclusions in this 'multifacetted' mess.

There is absolutly nothing that we can do that will ever change this. Nothing.

The classical Muslim jurist al-Mawardi (year 1058) from Baghdad was a scholar who lived during the so-called Islamic "Golden Age".

He wrote the following, regarding infidel prisoners of jihad campaigns:

``As for the captives, the amir [ruler] has the choice of taking the most beneficial action of four possibilities: the first to put them to death by cutting their necks;
**
The Koran says specifically: Sura (chapter) 47 contains the ayah (verse): "When you encounter the unbelievers on the battlefield, strike off their heads until you have crushed them completely; then bind the prisoners tightly."

Intimidation really isnt part of it. A person who is beheaded has committed a crime against G=d. Part of this (from an Arab point of view) is that they are not to be given a proper burial. Thus the body is just a shell not deserving of any special care.

**
And our "friends" Saudi Arabia still beheads those who are guilty of serious crimes. Last year their court system cut the heads off of 52 men and 1 woman.

Are we going to stop Saudi Arabia from doing this?? I doubt it.

It is very hard for someone with my ethnic background to understand the ignorance of this administration. What part of infidel dont we understand?

No matter how many roads you build, no matter how many school kits you give out..you are still an infidel worthy of slavery and/or death. Period.

They dont want to 'catch up'.

Beheadings are practiced throughout the middle east. It is the norm, not the exception.

Saudi Arabia is not a third world country. Poverty has nothing to do with this form of punishment.

--to say differant is to disagree with G-d (who condones it in the Koran). And if you insist that they go against G-d, you have then proven yourself to be an infidel.

So you see, there is no way out of this thinking.

We must also understand that the Koran is not viewed as something that can be misinterpreted. Christians believe that the bible was written by human beings inspired by the Holy Spririt.

This is not the case in Islam. It is believed that the Koran is written by the hand of G-d. Literally. You cannot argue that verses are misinterpreted. If you do, then you have again proved yourself an infidel. And no one is ever going to listen to an infidel.

There was little forethought or consideration by those in charge of this debacle regarding many aspects of the region, it's history, the culture and beliefs and desires of the people.
Also, to the motivation behind the resistance.

All who are knowledgeable in this or who have studied and worked in or written about the region warned
of this very thing.

Disasterous results have occurred for all due to this lack of insight.

This is a Holy War to the insurgency (and the Terrorist groups borne out of and strengthened by this invasion). They kill and die for God.

What many Americans don't realize when they buy into the extremely limited and sort of pompous idea that the Middle East will be better off if they are 'modernized' (meaning, more like America)..
is that many there find our culture highly offensive, and were never interested in making these changes..and certainly not under an occupation run by a government they view as pure evil.

What's actually happened to Iraq as a result of this profound ignorance is just fueling that sentiment.

But then, I don't believe our current administrators were ever really interested in a comprehensive understanding of Iraq.
They blatantly ignored advise and information given from within the Pentagon and other sources along the way, from the inception of the idea to invade.

Our military and the innocent population there are paying dearly for it.

Mo

As Americans, we see only the benefits of 'modernization'. But there are many drawbacks to our culture.

Our system works for us. We have a history of the Magna Carta & we have a history of rebellion.

To the middle east 'modernizing' would be accepting Paris Hilton ads, MTV, Harry Potter (the use of magic), unacceptable clothing, partial birth abortion, ect. To them this what we are offering.

We have no moral highground here. We must first change our culture. Are we willing to do that for other people? Why not? We are asking others to change for us.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kara Tyson:
24,

They dont want to 'catch up'.

Beheadings are practiced throughout the middle east. It is the norm, not the exception.

Saudi Arabia is not a third world country. Poverty has nothing to do with this form of punishment.

--to say differant is to disagree with G-d (who condones it in the Koran). And if you insist that they go against G-d, you have then proven yourself to be an infidel.

So you see, there is no way out of this thinking.

We must also understand that the Koran is not viewed as something that can be misinterpreted. Christians believe that the bible was written by human beings inspired by the Holy Spririt.

This is not the case in Islam. It is believed that the Koran is written by the hand of G-d. Literally. You cannot argue that verses are misinterpreted. If you do, then you have again proved yourself an infidel. And no one is ever going to listen to an infidel.

[This message has been edited by Kara Tyson (edited 18 June 2005).]

---

Kara, there are plenty of modern educated Muslims in the US and all over the world that don't think this way. I disagree that they don't want to change. Most people do want a better life and each generation after will improve on this primitive mindset. Education=Civility for Christians, Muslims, etc. The problem is that the middle east has not been allowed to move forward. Saddam was Iraq's problem, the clerics in Iran are their problem, etc. When these countries get true democracy and people really can choose and be free, things will change. Afghanistan is well on it's way, but it will take several decades. This is a long term investment, no short term 100% modifications.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kara Tyson:
Sometimes I wonder if the administration has even take one sociology course.

---

Kind of an arrogent and high on your horse attack I must say Kara. One sociology course won't teach you what you really need to know in this world anyway. I took one too many in my two tours of duty in college, and they didn't teach me anything worthwhile or relavent.

At least Bush has been outspoken against the "downsides", as you put it, of our culture. His whole agenda is against that kind of materialistic garbage, so why bash him? I'd say he's a pretty good example of someone that's overcome drinking/partying and made something of himself.

There's a reason why so many students over there want to come here for school, and it's not because they're obssessing on our "downside". Our "downside" is pretty small compared to the "upside", and that's why so many want to come here.

There is no seperation from mosque and state. Ever. And what is said in English to an infidel is often not the same thing (it is ok to lie to an infidel).

There are plenty of educated Muslims in the middle east. Universitys are pouring out students. And yes they do come here...to learn how to defeat us.

Unless you are an American citizen you should be barred from our school system. There are plenty of Americans that would gladly take their place.

There is a great book on why the Muslim world wont enter the modern era. And it comes down to simply...the Koran. It is taken as the literal word of G-d with no mistakes.

Therefore,
Cardiology cannot be taught. The Koran states the heart is in the center of the body. Any medical school teaching otherwise are closed down.

Maps cannot be accurate. The Koran says the world is flat. In fact, in Saudi Arabia any teacher teaching otherwise will be arrested.

I agree that 'democracy' is possible (the rule of the many). However, many Americans think we have a democracy. We dont.

There are many many countries that oppress their peoples, are we then going to invest our money and blood in all of them?

One course in Sociology will teach you one thing...there are other societies that do not think the way we do.

And last I heard Bush invited a porn star to a White House dinner.

And it is NOT conservative to bankrupt this country to build schools for other people, build places of worship for other people, educate other people, build roads for other people, ect.

Just because someone causes themselves a conservative doesnt make them one.
Actions speak louder than words.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kara Tyson:

And last I heard Bush invited a porn star to a White House dinner.

Just because someone causes themselves a conservative doesnt make them one.
Actions speak louder than words.

---

I think this is pretty telling. You "heard". Why don't you find out the truth rather than go on rumor or loose irresponsible sound bytes. Check into it, and you'll find that Bush had no idea she was coming and didn't invite her himself. She got in because she was going to run for office in CA and had the money and connections. Kind of a slip through the cracks thing, big mistake. But making big mistakes happens on both sides. Hypocracy is on both sides at times.

Also, anyone that stands high on their judgemental horse better have their own act together regarding hypocracy if they're going to judge others so harshly. Otherwise it just becomes another example of hypocracy on their part.

And sorry, investing in another society and culture to ultimately result in making our country safer, and helping poor abused people in the process IS very much a conservayive ideal. Defense and compassion for the poor while providing defense.

Regarding your anti-Muslim rant, you clearly don't know very much about Muslims in the world. Sure, there are the fundementalists like you speak of, but the educated Muslims that are separated from their homeland propaganda and fundementalist spin see things much different. I know that first hand with my friend. I'm not a big fan of the Koran at all, and really don't like it. I think it's a messed up religion personally, but the truth is the truth. Not all Muslims think the way you present them. In fact most that are in the USA are very different from the people you speak of. Very insulting I think.

And again, the best defense is to go after the source that's stalking you. If someone threatens to kill the president, do you think the Secrect Service thinks "we don't want to take the chance of hurting anyone while we get this guy, and besides we can just protect him"? Of course not. They know that if someone really wnats to and they're good, they can get the president. So they go after the guy on the offensive. And that's what we're doing with terrorists. You have to have an offense and defense to stay safe.

So what would YOU do to control the out of control problems in the middle east? As long as we support Isreals right to exist, they'll always be gunning for us. Always have and always will unless we do something.

No one slips into the White House uninvited. There are lots of people who run for office
who never get invited to the White House.

And if they did, what does that say about our so-call security?

And I know plenty about the Muslim world. I have relatives who have lived in those countries.

What would I do? I would have had planes in the air within 24 hours of 9/11 and laid a few bombs. With a warning, next time...a nuclear bomb. And meant every word of it. Fever people would have died and the message would have been sent loud and clear.

And I say again, the Constitution of the United States of America says nothing about spreading our form of Gov. to other people.

Nothing. It is not our right nor is it our obligation.

The founding fathers were wise to know that there would then be no end.

What about the Sudan? Are we going to throw money into that mess?

What about Ethiopia? Libya? Iran? Sri Lanka? Pakistan? UAE? Saudi Arabia? Do you know how many countries dont have representative gov's?? Many.

Each as ruthless as the next.

We are going to save all of these people?? We are going to educate all of these people??

What if the choice is to educate an American child or a child in Iran? Would you choose the Iranian child? Would you ask the American taxpayer to choose the Iranian child?

Build all the roads you want, educate all you want, but dont ask the American taxpayer to pay for it. Get out your own checkbook and write the numbers as big as you want. Just dont condone the Gov. to steal it from the American taxpayer. They get enough already.

Regarding your foreign policy recommendations, I'll just let them speak for themsleves and not waste my typing discussing those. Pretty sad.

Oh, and you forgot to mention the Motley Crue girls.....oh wait, Motley are the greatest thing to you, so they're not so bad. We're all hypocrates to some degree, right? So why are you on your high horse judging others so harshly? Again, hypocracy on your behalf. Another glass house situation.

It is written by an Iraqi female computer programmer. The article, in short, is about how prior to the war more than half the Iraqi workforce were women, lots of them held professional positions. Lots of them CHOSE not to wear the hijab.

However, NOW many of those same women have not really got much of a choice and for their own safety, have to wear the hijab - as the author writes: "a long skirt loose shirt has become necessary. A girl wearing jeans risks being attacked, abducted, or insulted by fundamentalists who have now been.........liberated!".

Women/girls now now have to be accompanied, wherever they go, by male 'bodyguards' (fathers/brothers/uncles) for their own protection in the street.

Women have/are losing their jobs because employers (who are male) do not want to be responsible for the women safety (those women who are unable to have constant male 'bodyguards'). Girls are having to quit college and school.

Here is the site given at the end of the newspaper article to read more of the authors reports/blogs about life in Iraq, post-invasion.

"Girl blog from Iraq" as author calls herself:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/

There was/is gross and criminal negligence perpetrated under the guise of
'liberating Iraq' by force.

From an educated view it makes no sence, and that has been well proven with time.

Mo

If an individual American wants to spill their blood, by all means they should get on a plane and fight for the Iraqi's.

But dont expect me (or mine) to spill my blood for people that think I am a dog!

And any Arab Christian will tell you, there is only one form of Islam. It has always been a ploy from the earliest of days to fool people with, "oh, you are also a people of the book..we respect you". It's a ruse. Arab Christians arent fooled--they know better.

Reminder, we have a voluntary military. No one would ever ask you to serve, so don't sweat it.

Reminder, Arab-Christians only see the fundementalist wacko Muslims....the ones that will eventually fall in numbers over generations if the society is educated and modernized in the coming decades. Arab-Christians are the wrong people to ask about what all Mulims are capable of. They've never met civil Muslims from the West, have they? No, so what do they know about what Muslims are capable of in a modernized society.

24-sez:
We are doing two things in Iraq. Helping these people and also doing it to improve our national secuirty in the future.

List how, exactly.

Mo

If you are not a US citizen, you should receive no aid from the American taxpayer. Period. None. I dont care what your religion is.

We are being laughed at. We are fools. The whole world is laughing at us for falling for a ploy that has been used for 2000 years+.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Kara Tyson:

If you are not a US citizen, you should receive no aid from the American taxpayer. Period. None. I dont care what your religion is.

We are being laughed at. We are fools. The whole world is laughing at us for falling for a ploy that has been used for 2000 years+.

---

Anyone that thinks we should never help anyone else in the world is not only selfish to the ultimate extreme, this kind of hate for others borders on evil.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mo:
Again...the point was about forceably 'liberating' Iraq (translation, changing it to what our administration percieve/or rather proclaims.. is best), in the heart of the Middle East, and why it is failing miserably..what you are saying is irrelavant to the points made.

24-sez:
[b]We are doing two things in Iraq. Helping these people and also doing it to improve our national secuirty in the future.

List how, exactly.

Mo

[This message has been edited by Mo (edited 20 June 2005).][/B]

---

First, list exactly how you're going to suddenly now understand common sense and reality?

When all Americans are taken care of, then we can discuss foreign aid.

Americans should not be forced to ignore American children in order to fund foreign children,

ignore our roads to fund foreign roads,

ignore our unemployment to fund foreign unemployment programs,

ignore our health care system to fund foreign health programs.

"It is worse still to be ignorant of your ignorance." - Saint Jerome

I do believe you, 24bit, and charles05 are one and the same, spew the same hateful, spiteful ignorance.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corinne E:

I do believe you, 24bit, and charles05 are one and the same, spew the same hateful, spiteful ignorance.

Corinne

---

Well of course you do. You get everything else wrong about me, so why not this?

And you have a nice day too.

Since when is it hateful to put Americans first??

Those Americans who believe in foreign aid (which could be 100% of the population--which changes nothing) are free to open their wallets and write a check. Write as many as you want.

But they dont have the right to insist that the Constitution be ignored and the Federal Gov. STEAL money from Americans to give to other people.

The problem with foreign aid is that it never treats people the same. White foreigners will always get aid before those in the Sudan and/or Ethiopia.

Those who have oil will always get aid before those who dont.

"everyone is equal but some are just more equal than others".

Since when is it hateful to believe in the constitution (which says nothing about foreign aid)?

Conservative used to me a Constitutionalist. It doesnt any longer. It now means to spread our way of life throughout the world. If it means Americans suffer then that is just the price we pay.

When we give aid it doesnt go to the people you want it to.

We sent aid to India for the tsunami. Did everyone get treated the same? Of course not. The "untouchables" had no access to our aid.

We sent aid to Africa and their own gov.'s turned it over to the black market.

We are building this brand new Mosque in Iraq. Why are we not building a church? Why are we not building a Temple for Jews? Why are we not building a place for the Kurds to worship the green man who lives in ponds?

We want 'democracy'--everyone to be represented.

Why are we only supporting one part of the population? Because some people are more equal than others.

I'm not sure I understand that!