One of our neighbors is moving. I've been in this neighborhood for about six years now, but didn't really know them very well at all - just waves and nods, mostly.

So I heard the moving van pull up this morning. When I got home this evening I happened to spy my neighbor (he's like 85 years old - I don't know exactly, but he's old, talks and moves very slowly) standing on the sidewalk next to the van. I walked over and shook his hand, and we started talking. I asked him where he was moving, and he said, "Back to Germany."

I had been stationed in Germany for two years while in the military, so I lit up, and commented about how beautiful the country was, and inquired if he was going back because he missed it.

"No," he answered me. "I'm going back because I've seen this before." He then commenced to explain that when he was a kid, he watched with his family in fear as Hitler's government committed atrocity after atrocity, and no one was willing to say anything. He said the news refused to question the government, and the ones who did were not in the newspaper business much longer. He said good neighbors, people he had known all his life, turned against his family and other Jews, grabbing on to the hate and superiority "as if they were starved for it" (his words).

He said he was too old to see it happen right in front of his eyes again, and too old to do anything about it, so he was taking his family back to Europe on Thursday where they would be safe from George W. Bush and his neocons. He seemed resolute, but troubled, nonetheless, as if being too young on one end and too old on the other to fight what he saw happening was wearing on him.

I gotta tell you - it was chilling. I let him talk, and the whole time, my gut was churning, like I had mutated butterflies in my stomach. When he was finished, he shook my hand, gripping it really hard, until his knuckles turned white and he was shaking. He looked me in the eyes, hard, and said, "I will pray for your family and your country." He let go of my hand and hobbled away.

I have related this event to you in the hopes it will serve as a cautionary anecdote about the state of our Union, and to illustrate the path we Americans are being led down by a group of fanatics bent on global economic and military dominion. When a man who survived the fruits of fascism decides its time to leave THIS country because he's seeing the same patterns that led to the Holocaust and other Nazi horrors beginning to form here, it is time for us to recognize the underlying evil inherent in the actions of those who claim they work for all Americans, and for all mankind. And it is incumbent upon all Americans, Red and Blue, Republican and Democrat, to stop them.

Thanks for posting this. I haven't been on lately, working f/t for now and I am really tired when I get home. I also am not feeling well at all. I have got to get back on abx. I am moving 1st of July into Vancouver and hopefully then I can start to put a plan together.

Back to your article, I have been doing lots of reading, thinking, and praying lately. I read something on Monday, this is not the actual quote verbatim, goes something like "People only believe what they want to believe". My take on that is, no matter what is said and done, as awful as that can be, people have their own agenda and don't really care about others. I have always believed that for a certain group of people, no matter what happens in America and the rest of us worldwide, they will just sit on the sidelines and glory in all the death and corruption. Why? Because they are evil, I do believe.

When one has actually seen and/or been on the suffering and death end of a war, that person never forgets the events leading up to the war. There were many in Britain at that time and elsewhere who could actually see how events were being played out, knew about the holocaust and did nothing. Much the same as today. What goes around, comes around. When are people going to wake up? The american and canadian people and others stand to lose much more than they did in the 30's depression, so many other countries suffered at the hands of militarists and empire builders. Civilians were not part of the equation, except as collateral. The world as we know it today is not the same as it was then.

Keep on spreading the word, there are some who are actually listening.

I have another question that perhaps someone can answer.

I heard on the CBC radio the other day that most of the opium coming out of Afganistan (sp?) actually goes to the u.s.a. and is sold here. If security is so great, how is this getting by the border guards, etc.? Who are the big dealers on american soil dealing and selling this stuff? Someone in the u.s.a. is making billions. I wonder who that might be? Any answers/opinions?

Look em up.

Those would be referred to as parallels.

The criteria for being 'immediately cast aside and considered irrelavant' is quite broad, it seems.. and ever broadening.

It must be nice to know everything.

Mo

It is till u meet an idiot, then do you pick up a stick and end it's misery, or torment it some more?

The poor man, again if he exist, would be a victim of the left. They see things in the dark and hear voices. Actually they spread unbelievable propaganda, which is a waste of time on a normal human, but weaker and more trusting do fall pray to it.

So what did she say? Nothing! One lousy course in writing propaganda and this is the best she can do. (probably had help at that)

Pay close attention as I may ask questions! What Mr.Bush is putting in place is ground work for democracies to flourish in the middle east. If you think this is a waste of time, only hindsight will tell. If it works there will be a chance for the region, if it doesn't, there won't be. Pretty damn simple if you ask me. The temperament, the weapons, the screwed up raghead religion and them Jew boy's attitude of never again!

How does the board handle something like that?

Quest...

These are some of the elements of our new regime that can't be denied, I'm sure the response will be case and point from our resident Rightsters, this is for everyone else who might be reading over here..

Tho - before you guys diss the 'old guy' (the holocaust survivor) and brand him senile,

you might take a look ar the parallels that remind him of Nazi Germany:

14 points of fascism under george bush in the united states:

In "Fascism Anyone?," Laurence Britt identifies 14 characteristics common to fascist regimes. His comparisons of Hitler, Mussolini, Franco, Suharto, and Pinochet yielded this list of 14 "identifying characteristics of fascism."

1.) Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

and let's not forget the failed "Bring 'em on!"

American Nation Brainwashed: I spoke to some 2,000 students during their annual lecture at a Baptist college in Pennsylvania. After a short prayer service for peace centered on the Beatitudes, I took the stage and got right to the point. ``Now let me get this straight,'' I said. ``Jesus says, `Blessed are the peacemakers,' which means he does not say, `Blessed are the warmakers,' - With that, the place exploded, and 500 students stormed out. The rest of them then started chanting, ``Bush! Bush! Bush!'' Some may remember Duce! Duce! Duce! -ed.


2.) Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights

Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

Cheney comes out in favor of keeping Gitmo
Bush, Cheney Attack Amnesty International
"For Amnesty International to suggest that somehow the United States is a violator of human rights, I frankly just don't take them seriously.":

Bush calls Amnesty International's "gulag" report absurd (three times in two sentences)

Guantanamo Judge: ``I don't care about international law. I don't want to hear the words `international law' again. We are not concerned with international law.''
Rumsfeld to approve new guidelines that will formalize the administration's policy of imprisoning without the protections of the Geneva Conventions and enable the Pentagon to legally hold "ghost detainees,"

US 'preparing to detain terror suspects for life without trial'

U.S. oks evidence gained through torture.

The Bush administration has concluded for the first time that some non-Iraqi prisoners captured by American forces in Iraq are not entitled to the protections of the Geneva Conventions

July 1, 2003: U.S. Suspends Military Aid to Nearly 50 Countries: because they have supported the International Criminal Court and failed to exempt Americans from possible prosecution.

US has at least 9000 prisoners in secret detention

U.S. listed as cause of most human rights abuses

3.) Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause

The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial, ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Slander: Liberal lies...

"How to talk to a liberal (if you must)"

"Deliver us...defeating terrorism, despotism, and liberalism"

The Enemy Within: Saving America from the liberal assault in our schools, faith and military Reckless Disregard:
How Liberal Democrats Undercut Our Military, Endanger Our Soldiers, and Jeopardize Our Security

Persecution: How Liberals Are Waging War Against Christianity

Congressman: Muslims 'enemy amongst us'
SB 24, Ohio law to muzzle "liberals"
Britain's War On Islam: "We Will Blow Your Son's head Off" they say. File may take a moment to load. Flash presentation.

World history textbook used by seventh-graders at Scottsdale's Mohave Middle School was pulled from classrooms mid-semester amid growing criticism of the book's portrayal of Islam

How U.S. Attorney-General, a Christian Evangelist With Anti-Islamic Views On Record, Is Waging War On American Muslims
Dr. James J. Zogby: A co-ordinated and bigoted assault The anti-Arab campaign being waged today in the U.S. is an organised multi-pronged effort targeting a variety of Arab leaders, institutions and Islam.

America's freedoms are being challenged by anti-Muslim hysteria and abuses of the Patriot Act, said a convert to Islam and former Army chaplain

4.) Supremacy of the Military

Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

If you haven't seen the Oreo flash animation yet, see it here

Bush budget: Military wins: Bush proposed a $2.57 trillion budget for 2006 on Monday that would erase scores of programs, cull savings from Medicaid and cut housing for the disabled and many other programs. Its fate will be decided by Congress over coming months.
Bush's Domestic Program Hit List
CIA in decline, Pentagon on the rise: The recent revelation that the Department of Defense has been operating its own espionage arm for the last two years confirms Rumsfeld's success in sidelining the CIA.
Three cable channels now feed news, information and entertainment about the armed services into millions of living rooms 24 hours a day, seven days a week: The Military Channel, the Military History Channel and the Pentagon Channel.
Pentagon to spend 75 billion for three new brigades
President Bush Wipes Out Vocational and Gifted Education; Gives Special Education Short Shrift. "Under this budget, our children with disabilities and our children with gifts and talents will be left behind."
The New American Militarism: How Americans Are Seduced by War

5.) Rampant Sexism

The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

It's legal again, to fire gov't workers for being gay

Bush calls for Constitutional ban on same-sex marriages

Bush refuses to sign U.N proposal on women's "sexual" rights

W. David Hager chairman of the FDA's Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee does not prescribe contraceptives for single women, does not do abortions, will not prescribe RU-486 and will not insert IUDs. Hager believes that headaches, PMS and eating disorders can be cured by reading Scripture.

The State Department has awarded an explicitly anti-feminist U.S. group part of a US$10 million grant to train Iraqi women in political participation and democracy.

6.) Controlled Mass Media

Sometimes the media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives.

Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

Smoking Gun Memo? Iraq Bombshell Goes Mostly Unreported in US Media
FOX NEWS ADMITS BIAS Scott Norvell is London bureau chief for Fox News, and on May 20 he let the mask slip in, of all places, the Wall Street Journal. So far, the damage has been contained, because Norvell's comments -- in an op-ed he wrote decrying left-wing bias at the BBC -- appeared only in the Journal's European edition.

Free Press details recent governmental propaganda efforts, from faux-correspondent Jeff Gannon to paid-off pundit Armstrong Williams, and from the demise of FOIA to video news releases passed off as news. also... See a Whitehouse fake news release here (opens realplayer)

onservative columnist discloses CIA operative's name, liberal reporters face jail time

Chain of TV and radio station donates $300,000 worth of airtime to GOP candidates for free last-minute political ads
US seizes webservers from independent media sites

Bush's war on information: US editors forbidden to publish certain foreign writers

Bush administration violated federal law by producing and distributing television news segments about the effects of drug use among young people. The GAO said the videos "constitute covert propaganda" because the government was not identified as the source of the materials

7.) Obsession with National Security

Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses

Bush Aides ADMIT 'stoking fear' for political gain

GOP convention in a nutshell

The Bush administration periodically put the USA on high alert for terrorist attacks even though then-Homeland Security chief Tom Ridge argued there was only flimsy evidence to justify raising the threat level, Ridge now says.


Bush nominates new commissioner of FDA in attempt to combat "food terrorism"

Wolfowitz sees his placement as head of World Bank as way to fight terrorism

U.S. Set to Test Missile Defenses for Commercial Airliners

Cheney warns that if Kerry is elected, the USA will suffer a "devastating attack"

Former counterterrorism chief claims that the now- discredited documents that showed Iraq trying to purchase uranium were fabricated right here in the United States

"We don't do politics in the Department of Homeland Security," Ridge said last year.

Evidence suggests otherwise
Senate to pass a bill exempting Department of Homeland Security from all judicial oversight.

Picking up where Tom Ridge left off, Dept of Homeland Security issues another vague, non-specific warning

A scared populace is a compliant populace Terrorists are likely planning U.S. attacks, a U.S. Homeland Security official said Friday.

8.) Religion and Government are Intertwined

Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion.

Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

NC congressman proposes law making it ok to preach politics from the pulpit

Texas Governor Mobilizes Evangelicals

Family research council: Justice Sunday
Law would put 'In God We Trust' in schools: A proposed law, now awaiting action in the state House, would require the motto to appear in every public school classroom, auditorium and cafeteria in Pennsylvania
New York Times reports on conference "Confronting the Judicial War on Faith

Christian conservatives, led by some top Republicans, are stepping up their assault on the U.S. judiciary, saying judges are attacking religion and must be reined in
Tom "The Hammer" DeLay says U.S. need not separate church, state

Thou shalt be like Bush: What makes this recently established, right-wing Christian college unique are the increasingly close - critics say alarmingly close - links it has with the Bush administration and the Republican establishment.

Park Service Continues to Push Creationist Theory at Grand Canyon and other nat'l parks

9.) Corporate Power is Protected

The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Bill would shield mad cow outbreak from Freedom of Information Act.

Supreme Court overturns Arthur Andersen conviction

Congress rejects proposal to investigate Iraq's war profiteers

ff the Hook: Deferred Prosecution

Agreements On the Rise: Ten major American corporations settled serious criminal charges with deferred prosecution, no prosecution, or de facto no prosecution agreements over the last two years
Shadowy lobbyists ignore rules and exploit connections -- and their industry of influence nets almost $13 billion.

Fortune 500 companies that invested millions of dollars in electing Republicans are emerging as the earliest beneficiaries of a government controlled by President Bush

The Supreme Court overturns the conviction of the Arthur Andersen accounting firm for destroying Enron Corp.-related documents before the energy giant's collapse

White House helps Halliburton send their audit through the wash before presenting it to the UN

Bankruptcy ''reform" bill written by credit card companies: The bill makes it harder for ordinary people crushed by debt (often medical debt) to start anew. It leaves intact dodges used by wealthy people, such as asset-hiding trusts, and the corporate ability to use bankruptcy to slash wages, evade pension responsibilities, and stiff creditors.

10.) Labor Power is Suppressed

Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

chwarzenegger steps up attacks on labor unions in California

Labor Department warns unions against using their money politically

Basics on New Financial Reporting Rules for Unions Proposed by the Department of Labor
Organized labor locks horns with White House

President Bush Attacks Organized Labor Bush attacked organized labor Saturday, issuing orders effectively reducing how much money unions can spend for political activities and opening up government contracts to non-union bidding.

March 2001: President Bush signed his name to four executive orders on organized labor last month, including one that cuts the money unions will have for political campaign spending.

Congress and the Department of Labor are trying to change the rules on overtime pay, eliminating the 40 hour work week, taking eligibility for overtime pay away from millions of workers, and replacing time and a half pay with comp days.

11.) Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts

Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested.

Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Bush's new economic plan cuts funding for arts, education

Artists from all over the world are being refused entry to the US on security grounds.

Jeb Bush calls author of bill banning professors from being too liberal as a "freedom fighter"

A group of more than 60 top U.S. scientists, including 20 Nobel laureates and several science advisers to past Republican presidents, on Wednesday accused the Bush administration of manipulating and censoring science for political purposes

(and now PBS)

12.) Obsession with Crime and Punishment

Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations
Snitch-or-Go-to-Jail bill will make pretty much anything short of reporting on everyone you see for doing just about anything a jailable offense. With minimum sentences, up to and including life without parole.

Report: Thousands wrongly convicted each year: Thousands of suspects unable to afford lawyers are wrongly convicted each year because they are pressured to accept guilty pleas or have incompetent attorneys, the American Bar Association says in a report.

The problem with Gonzales is that he has been deeply involved in developing some of the most sweeping claims of near-dictatorial presidential power in our nation's history, allowing him to imprison and even (at least in theory) torture anyone in the world, at any time

Police officers don't have to give a reason at the time they arrest someone, the U.S. Supreme Court said in a ruling that shields officers from false-arrest lawsuits.

13.) Rampant Cronyism and Corruption

Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Bush Cronyism: Foxes Guarding the henhouse
I
ran-Contra Felons Get Good Jobs from Bush

Big Iraq Reconstruction Contracts Went To

Big Donors

Bush Wars -- Crooks Get Contracts : The main companies that were awarded billions of dollars worth of contracts in Iraq have paid more than $300 million in fines since 2000, to resolve allegations of fraud, bid rigging, delivery of faulty military equipment, and environmental damage.
US Coalition Provisional Authority (CPA) lost track of $9 billion

14. Fraudulent Elections

Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

The Conyers Report (.pdf)

The complete POAC collection of 2004 election stories

Consultant who destroyed Democratic voter registration forms says his GOP clients are "very proud" of his company's actions
RNC funds voter suppression efforts in at least 5 states

Republican judge upholds RNC efforts to supress Democratic party voters
Bush campaign chairman quits over illegal phone jamming
the 2000 election

How To Rig An Election In The United States
Scoop: Diebold Memos Disclose Florida 2000 E-Voting Fraud

Because of a Help America Act passed after the 2000 election, by 2006, every state will use e-voting.

Election officials all over the country are erecting illegal barriers to keep young voters from casting ballots. From New Hampshire to California, officials have designed complex questionnaires that prevent college students from registering, hired high-powered attorneys to keep them off the rolls, shut down polling places on campuses and even threatened to arrest and imprison young voters

Florida 2000: "I'm with the Bush-Cheney team, and I'm here to stop the count."
This picture is what stopped the ballot recounts in Florida shortly after it seemed that legitimate President Gore had a lead. The "citizens" started what was later called "the preppy riot". Screaming, yelling, pounding on the walls, these "outraged citizens" intimidated the polling officials to halt the court mandated recount. A closer look reveals who they really were. They were bussed and flown in at Republican lawmakers expense. Some even flew in on Tom Delay's private plane.


If Mussolini defines fascism as "the merger of corporate and government power" what does that make the Republican party?


� 2003-2005 OLDAmericanCentury.org and OLDAmericanCentury.com

And seeing as how your coming on so strong and we're being brutally honest with one another, there's a few things about you that I'd like to take up with you! Your unwavering support of Durbin is offensive to me. I'm not into torture for the sake of torture but if it works and there is information you need to save American lives, I'm not too fussy about where that information comes from or if someone had to listen to the dixie chicks all night. You come on as a ``hand ringer'' that thinks we should tie one hand behind our back in this war. The rule in this war seems to be that there are no rules in this war. If given your choice of being an American prisoner or the insurgency's prisoner, I think you'd hop in America's arms in a heart beat! If you post trash, someone will throw it back at you! Ask Mo!

Mo, would you try that stuff on pre-schoolers. You know I'm not going to bite, (or read that crap).

I like to see differences of opinion and logic extended. It is healthy and stimulating and makes people think. I like to listen to people who use logic and reason... particularly if they disagree with me! And if they have good data and logic they can change my mind.

But ethnic slurs are the language of hate and are used most often to promote non-thinking responses. (as opposed to logic and reason) Ethnic slurs also promote brutality because they dehumanize the "other". (various studies have shown this) You used ethnic slurs and that is what I objected to and that is why I objected. You did ask didn't you?

Personal attacks are another tactic used by those can't use logic & reason or who wish to change the topic because they can't argue the current one on its own merits. They use the "you" word...instead of the "I" word. Some politcal parties (current & historical) stoop to this tactic also: that way the real issues can be ignored and emotions can be inflamed so people don't think.

The torture of prisoners of war is the antithesis of our democratic principles and the Geneva Convention and civilized humanity. It just isn't ethical to torture people for any reason. But if one doesn't want to look at the ethics of it....maybe one could look at the practical side: All the studies I have heard of say that torture of prisoners is quite useless. That human nature being what it is people give "false" evidence under torture time after time. Ergo... the use of torture is reduced to the essence of evil if it doesn't even get results. If you want to argue in favor of torture please find the studies that find it to be of a significant benefit and start a new thread. I would be most interested. But...If you can only find studies that prove that torture is useless, then... if you are logical and honest to yourself, you will join me in speaking out against the evil of torture.

I do agree that if one is in a war protecting one's country one should go all out. But our country is not doing either...are we? (Iraq never attacked us and never had the capacity to do so and definitely had nothing to do with 9-11...so we are not defending our country with this "war"....and we have never reinstituted the draft which is what we would do for a real war if we were "going all out") So...Maybe we are not really at war? Maybe this really was all about a regime change and oil. Maybe we were duped and lied to by the Corporate Powers running our government? And maybe now the ones who got us into it (Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld & Chaney etc...) don't know what to do.... becaue the "war" is growing and their preinvasion memos indicate they thought it would be a slam dunk.

As to us bringing democracy to other countries...why would we choose little ineffective oil-rich Iraq to "help" by invading their country, instead of belligerant atomic-rich N. Korea? (someone said that if Iraq only raised broccoli instead of oil, we wouldn't be there..)

And remember our own revolution?: Democracy comes from within, not from without. That is because you have to change ideas to create democracy...and ideas are not readily changed by bombs and killing. Except perhaps to create more animosity and more enemies.

CA, good of you to reply in your own words. That was time consuming and I appreciate not being cut and pasted into oblivion with someone else's thoughts. I'll get back a little later today, gotta weed before the heat of the day.

I like to see differences of opinion and logic extended. It is healthy and stimulating and makes people think. I like to listen to people who use logic and reason... particularly if they disagree with me! And if they have good data and logic they can change my mind.

I say:

I'm not interested in changing my position on anything that I can think of. I don't enjoy arguing and think it a waste of time by and large. This is my country right or wrong and we have served each other well! I can general find something lacking in the character of anyone who bad mouths America whether it is a direct attack or round about or even an off hand slight! You refer to ``good data'', well that can be manufactured and manipulated pretty much on demand as you have seen recently. I have mentioned many times on here that for the price of a second hand tank, you can throw up a net work of web sites each referencing one another. Words have power whether they are true or not! A person not well grounded in reality without a strong trust in his country would be easy picking for a propagandist they put their faith in. News is not always good, nor is it always bad. To believe in something (your country) you have to go with the average, leveling out the peaks and valleys. What comes out steady is what you put your faith in!

You said

But ethnic slurs are the language of hate and are used most often to promote non-thinking responses. (as opposed to logic and reason) Ethnic slurs also promote brutality because they dehumanize the "other". (various studies have shown this) You used ethnic slurs and that is what I objected to and that is why I objected. You did ask didn't you?
Personal attacks are another tactic used by those can't use logic & reason or who wish to change the topic because they can't argue the current one on its own merits. They use the "you" word...instead of the "I" word. Some politcal parties (current & historical) stoop to this tactic also: that way the real issues can be ignored and emotions can be inflamed so people don't think.

I say:

Who are we having trouble with, the Norwegians? Political correctness sucks! If you want to couchy-coo the ragheads, that's up to you. You will do it without me! They killed 3000 of my friends and neighbors in a sneak attack and the fight is still on! Why are all the terrorist muzzzlums? I hope you are aware of that when you post anything that could be remotely discrediting to our country such as the Getmo post. Now the personal attacks. I have seen this tactic used where someone post the most outrageous post and when you criticize (or question their ancestry) they accuse you of personal attacks. When you post something, it should at least sound somewhat reasonable.

You said:

The torture of prisoners of war is the antithesis of our democratic principles and the Geneva Convention and civilized humanity. It just isn't ethical to torture people for any reason. But if one doesn't want to look at the ethics of it....maybe one could look at the practical side: All the studies I have heard of say that torture of prisoners is quite useless. That human nature being what it is people give "false" evidence under torture time after time. Ergo... the use of torture is reduced to the essence of evil if it doesn't even get results. If you want to argue in favor of torture please find the studies that find it to be of a significant benefit and start a new thread. I would be most interested. But...If you can only find studies that prove that torture is useless, then... if you are logical and honest to yourself, you will join me in speaking out against the evil of torture.

I say:

Grow up schoolboy! It's easy to be abstract when there's nothing chewing on your butt! What if,,,, you had lost seven men before lunch and you had two prisoners. I suspect you would quickly develop a certain ``flexibility'' in your thinking! I personally have no experience in such matters but have heard if you strap two prisoners to the helo skids and cut one loose, the other turns into a magpie by the time you land. You can hear anything but like I say, I have no personal knowledge if anything like this ever happened.

You said:

I do agree that if one is in a war protecting one's country one should go all out. But our country is not doing either...are we? (Iraq never attacked us and never had the capacity to do so and definitely had nothing to do with 9-11...so we are not defending our country with this "war"....and we have never reinstituted the draft which is what we would do for a real war if we were "going all out") So...Maybe we are not really at war? Maybe this really was all about a regime change and oil. Maybe we were duped and lied to by the Corporate Powers running our government? And maybe now the ones who got us into it (Wolfowitz, Rumsfeld & Chaney etc...) don't know what to do.... becaue the "war" is growing and their preinvasion memos indicate they thought it would be a slam dunk.
As to us bringing democracy to other countries...why would we choose little ineffective oil-rich Iraq to "help" by invading their country, instead of belligerant atomic-rich N. Korea? (someone said that if Iraq only raised broccoli instead of oil, we wouldn't be there..)
And remember our own revolution?: Democracy comes from within, not from without. That is because you have to change ideas to create democracy...and ideas are not readily changed by bombs and killing. Except perhaps to create more animosity and more enemies.

And I said:

On the subject of democracy you over looked Japan and Germany and the other stuff someone told you or you maybe read it and it is now your belief and please don't waste my time trying to convince me of it!

OK, it's been fun but time consuming, let's not do it again.

Good going. Ya gotta keep rattling cages.

How else will folks ever realize they're in one?

I had problems with some of what Bill did, too. Some here assume I'm a 'democrat' simply because I call out this administration, I guess..
but fact is..noone ever asked me

No - I didn't write the above piece..and I almost always put links to what I post.

Now I can't remember the source of this..
it did not have an authors name, tho -
I do remember that much.

Chilling story, really.

Mo

IMO, cohorts his age who are still alive still feel the same way about Jews. One manifestation of this is the vehment rejection by her town, to have a street named the German-borne actress Marlene Dietrich, about 5-7 yr. ago.

There is a substantial, if not overwhelming immigration into European countries from countries where anti-semitism is very strong.

Alone, the heterogeneity of this country, IMO,confers a hidden best defense against genocide;ours laws help too.

Anti-(any race,nationality,cultures etc.) has a better chance of not getting out of control in this country than most others, as the heterogeneity waters this down.

I'd bet this guy is fleeing from something.
He could be an ex-nazi in hiding,and was found-out. He probably had his Swiss bank account closed.

I think he is panicked about something other than the reason he stated.

This doesn't smell right.

With this latest decision on property rights and eminent domain.Wow,let's keep corporate America happy and the top brackets will be sittin in Tall COTTON.

Sandra Day,thanks for stickin by the little guys.

I believe what the man is referring to is not happening on our soil, borne out of dishonest manipulation of the public, and abuse of our military..
the current administrations policies, outright lies, exploitation of 911, public divided and conquered, ect, ect..
the cruxt of it is in the bolded paragraph in the topic post..

it's about genocide in the Middle East, for reasons of oil industry control.

I don't imagine the government ever behaving as Hitler did in our own country -
tho - I do wonder about possible Terror attatcks incited by Bush actions in Iraq,
and how Americans will respond to Middle Easterners after that.

Our 'leaders' are major catalysts in that sinario as well.

The moral of the story is the elderly German man can't take again being a citizen of a country whose leaders perpetrate such atrocities.

Many Americans share that view. We're trapped until the public and congress take needed action.

If the Downing Street memos are not at least investigated..the message is clear that we have already been taken over.
It is proposterous that such information has been ignored by much of the media.

Think about it.

The memo is posted here. Many Americans have immediately dismissed it.

Something is really wrong in this country!

Mo

Blatant dissmissal of facts, government investigation, documentation, cause, efffect and actual occurances to date is at this point direct abuse of our troops and support of known atrocities that effect us all.

You may be OK with that, for no better reason than pride..but MANY, many are not.

What you and those of like mindset at this point choose to ignore is incomprehensable.

Mo

Another friend writes speeches professionally & is moving to Italy for the same reason,

John was a Scientist @ NASA & a member of MENSA;he warned me about the One World Order before I was even old enough to understand.

Point is, these people ALL have great minds & they're not being alarmists nor naive!

G.W. recently gave a speech @ Penn State to the Future Farmers of America. He wasn't invited. They just called & announced he was coming...how arrogant! Luckily, classes were over for the Summer--there was a protest during the Election.

Mo

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PQ, good point! Bet the old fart failed to think this thing all the way through, (if he exist).

Didn't gwb say something like, "you are either with us or agin us". I don't think old georgie is doing anything to protect the american people, only his and his cronies interests (lining their pockets with tax payers' money and blood money from overseas). From everything that is coming out and more will eventually out in time, I would say that old georgie and people who think like him are against the american people. Wait and see.

quote:

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Originally posted by Corinne E:
24bit,

Didn't gwb say something like, "you are either with us or agin us". I don't think old georgie is doing anything to protect the american people, only his and his cronies interests (lining their pockets with tax payers' money and blood money from overseas). From everything that is coming out and more will eventually out in time, I would say that old georgie and people who think like him are against the american people. Wait and see.

Corinne

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It's pretty sad that you have such a dark outlook on people just because they have a different political philosophy than you. Just because someone honestly thinks their way is the right way to make this country safe doesn't mean that they're evil and don't care about Americans. You're completely off the chart with your hatred. Get it under control why don't you. You have absolutely no credibility when you think and speak like that.

quote:

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Originally posted by 24bit:
I think Mo needs a lesson in reality, and quick.

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That is yet another example; I see there are some people correctly observing the dynamic here, in some of the previous posts of this thread--. when anybody should stand up for real democracy, compassion, and logical thinking around here, he or she is attacked as somehow ...'anti-american' , dismissed as ...'needing a lesson in reality'... (by those who refuse to face reality-- is that the ... ...'lesson'... they are trying to give us that reality should be ignored?) and what he or she is saying is ignored as much as possible (since usually it is true, and is being bolstered by more and more evidence.) The hardest thing in the world to do is admit you're wrong. That is well known. It is also one of the the most rewarding things to do, and opens the way for further development and TRUE SUCCESS in life. If you're never wrong your not thinking enough.

Kudos to Mo and others, who illuminate truths, however disconcerting they might be, about the sorry state of our nation.

As for fighting for democracy, I suggest that we might start a bit closer to home than Iraq-- like, Washington, DC, for instance...

Veterans for Common Sense has a few thoughts worth reading (or, uh,..'viewing'..,if that's as much as the reader can do at this point...).

Free speech is almost dead- having died a most insidious death! Yeah, you can say anything you want; you can even speak the truth. But not anywhere that, or to anybody who, would matter! Yes, we've been had. Those of us who refuse to shut our eyes to this fact will win some day. But until that day much misery shall transpire. Let us minimize that misery!
DaveS