Topic: New Orleans in chaos, rescue plan under fire
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
I think now at this time in the operations its better to help than to blame at this time. The refugees need help concentrate on helping. Plenty of time later for blame game. Organize a food and water drive in your home town or give to a charity that will get the help there now.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
I agree to an extent but think we (the nation) really have to do both..
after 911 investigations were fought by the govt for a long time.. under the guise of 'lets move forward'.. so I think we have to move forward, however the issues are too enourmous to ignore and have anything like this happen again.
Aide to the victims we all must do what we can.
But the fact our govt is responsible for thousands of deaths and how they were responsible and failed has to be faced.
Troutster.. I wasn't talking about the military themselves..they are doing an amazing job, I was talking about the powers that be able to move them.
A major missing piece was response time and number of troops deployed.
After a certain point, it moved into Federal disaster catagory. I'm sure if a bomb hits.. and the officials know -- they aren't going to wait for someone local to give a call? I hope not! and in this case they had advance and real time notice on ALL of this.
The White house had every reason to declare NATIONAL disaster and Marshall Law as well. God knows we needed that too.
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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24bit-moderate
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Mo, you don't understand constitutional law regarding states power. Only if a state is in almost literal revolution can the president overide the state governor and come in. It's not a Fed situation until the governor formally declares/requests it. She STILL has not federalized the national guard....she still has control of any national guard that are in that state. Amazing.
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Softballmom
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posted
The same thing happened in Dade County after Andrew. Bush was blamed for late responce, however the help was not requested. Bush Blasted for folowing policy. He was also blasted by the very person that was to make the request.
What do we have policy for if we are not gonna use it. Also if this policy is hurting our country why not look to change it.
More troops were not requested by Blanco until Wed..Missisippi also devestated with phones down. got their requests in for more guard troops a day before Blanco did.
Yes we had problems all around but where would New Orleans be today had their local and state government managed this better from the beginning.
As far as government funding for the levees, you can't tell me that there was no state and local money to beef them up. While they were waiting for money they could have done something but the bottom line is they spent the money elsewhere.
We had an old bridge fall after the flood killing a wamon who was crossing it at the time.
Is is the Fed. Governments job to secure our local bridges or state funding? Those levee's are a part of that state just like our highways and bridges.
Don't tell me that state does not have a levie fund. As much money they have coming into that place with casinos and tourism don't tell me that they counldn't have done anything prior to this because federal funding was not available. I don't believe it.
-------------------- It's not the Lyme, I just can't spell! Posts: 1331 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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It is not politicizing for citizens, on BOTH 'sides' politically, to be holding the givernemt ACCOUNTABLE for it's part and it's failures.
And, yes, it was a system brake-down.. and there are finger pointers..
however
The majority of the public and some of the media are focusing on the disaster, and inadequate responses / government failures that caused thousands and thousands of deaths beyond the actual hurricane.
It is politicizing to excuse the government and not even look at that, and surprise, surprise.. at who is. Here and everywhere.
This is not an election, this is a matter of National Security and safety, and their responsibilities are what they are.
In my opinion any adament Bush administration supporters who have chosen not to look at certain elements of the War were also politicizing at the nations great detriment in this regard.. and any that continue to do it regarding this disater need to really get introspective about human values, and why they choose to avoid looking at certain things.
Republicans in Congress and all over are shifting to view this admin as administrators, and no longer giving carte blanche because they are their 'party leaders'.
That's what's needed now. How many have to die before more people will become objective about effective 'leadership'?
Broadcast on MSNBC:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The 'City' Of Louisiana By Keith Olbermann MSNBC 9-7-5
SECAUCUS - Secretary of Homeland Security Michael Chertoff said it all, starting his news briefing Saturday afternoon: "Louisiana is a city that is largely underwater..." Well there's your problem right there.
If ever a slip-of-the-tongue defined a government's response to a crisis, this was it. The seeming definition of our time and our leaders had been their insistence on slashing federal budgets for projects that might've saved New Orleans. The seeming characterization of our government that it was on vacation when the city was lost, and could barely tear itself away from commemorating V.J. Day and watching Monty Python's Flying Circus, to at least pretend to get back to work. The seeming identification of these hapless bureaucrats: their pathetic use of the future tense in terms of relief they could've brought last Monday and Tuesday - like the President, whose statements have looked like they're being transmitted to us by some kind of four-day tape-delay.
But no. The incompetence and the ludicrous prioritization will forever be symbolized by one gaffe by of the head of what is ironically called "The Department of Homeland Security": "Louisiana is a city"
Politician after politician - Republican and Democrat alike - has paraded before us, unwilling or unable to shut off the "I-Me" switch in their heads, condescendingly telling us about how moved they were or how devastated they were - congenitally incapable of telling the difference between the destruction of a city and the opening of a supermarket.
And as that sorry recital of self-absorption dragged on, I have resisted editorial comment. The focus needed to be on the efforts to save the stranded - even the internet's meager powers were correctly devoted to telling the stories of the twin disasters, natural... and government-made.
But now, at least, it is has stopped getting exponentially worse in Mississippi and Alabama and New Orleans and Louisiana (the state, not the city). And, having given our leaders what we know now is the week or so they need to get their act together, that period of editorial silence I mentioned, should come to an end.
No one is suggesting that mayors or governors in the afflicted areas, nor the federal government, should be able to stop hurricanes. Lord knows, no one is suggesting that we should ever prioritize levee improvement for a below-sea-level city, ahead of $454 million worth of trophy bridges for the politicians of Alaska.
But, nationally, these are leaders who won re-election last year largely by portraying their opponents as incapable of keeping the country safe. These are leaders who regularly pressure the news media in this country to report the reopening of a school or a power station in Iraq, and defies its citizens not to stand up and cheer. Yet they couldn't even keep one school or power station from being devastated by infrastructure collapse in New Orleans - even though the government had heard all the "chatter" from the scientists and city planners and hurricane centers and some group whose purposes the government couldn't quite discern... a group called The U.S. Army Corps of Engineers.
And most chillingly of all, this is the Law and Order and Terror government. It promised protection - or at least amelioration - against all threats: conventional, radiological, or biological.
It has just proved that it cannot save its citizens from a biological weapon called standing water.
Mr. Bush has now twice insisted that, "we are not satisfied," with the response to the manifold tragedies along the Gulf Coast. I wonder which "we" he thinks he's speaking for on this point. Perhaps it's the administration, although we still don't know where some of them are. Anybody seen the Vice President lately? The man whose message this time last year was, 'I'll Protect You, The Other Guy Will Let You Die'?
I don't know which 'we' Mr. Bush meant.
For many of this country's citizens, the mantra has been - as we were taught in Social Studies it should always be - whether or not I voted for this President - he is still my President. I suspect anybody who had to give him that benefit of the doubt stopped doing so last week. I suspect a lot of his supporters, looking ahead to '08, are wondering how they can distance themselves from the two words which will define his government - our government - "New Orleans."
For him, it is a shame - in all senses of the word. A few changes of pronouns in there, and he might not have looked so much like a 21st Century Marie Antoinette. All that was needed was just a quick "I'm not satisfied with my government's response." Instead of hiding behind phrases like "no one could have foreseen," had he only remembered Winston Churchill's quote from the 1930's. "The responsibility," of government, Churchill told the British Parliament "for the public safety is absolute and requires no mandate. It is in fact, the prime object for which governments come into existence."
In forgetting that, the current administration did not merely damage itself - it damaged our confidence in our ability to rely on whoever is in the White House.
As we emphasized to you here all last week, the realities of the region are such that New Orleans is going to be largely uninhabitable for a lot longer than anybody is yet willing to recognize. Lord knows when the last body will be found, or the last artifact of the levee break, dug up. Could be next March. Could be 2100. By then, in the muck and toxic mire of New Orleans, they may even find our government's credibility.
I want to congratulate you on your Monday night editorial "The 'City' of Louisiana." I believe it is the finest broadcast editorial I've heard in my 59 years in radio & TV, in a league with Murrow and Severeid, and certainly deserving of a Peabody. I felt the same astonished pride I felt listening to Ed Murrow bury the McCarthy witch hunters in the hard clay of reason and sensibility some 40 years ago.
I also commend you for announcing in advance that it was an editorial--too many today present their opinions as "news" based solely on being in a position to do so.
The build-up to the message (I also commend Lisa Myer for bringing to mainstream news the "horse-counseling" background of MD Brown and his "good ol' boy" appointment to FEMA by his college room mate and near equal in competency, Joe Allbaugh), the emotional piece featuring the President of Jefferson Parish, and the interview with the former FEMA director Haddo laid the groundwork and set the stage for an editorial I will remember as long as I live.
And speaking of horse counseling, I hope the powers to be at NBC were as impressed as I was for, just as there are far better qualified people for federal agencies than those currently in place, there are far better qualified newsmen for three recently-weakened anchor chairs than the asses currently therein.
Thank you and congratulations on a job well done.
Bob Barnes Voice Artist
[ 07. September 2005, 12:18 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
-------------------- life shrinks and expands in proportion to one's courage -- anais nin Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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troutscout
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3121
posted
Mo...why are insisting on bringing in the war on this? huh.
Anyway.....
Trust me...you never want marshall law unless it is necessary for population control. It is a last recourse.
To use that one on here is a desparate attempt at making your point.
Heck....who's excusing anybody from their responsibility in this? I don't see that here.
Negativity, negativity, negativitiy.....find solutions NOW...fix the machine later...focus energy on what needs to be done now.
The facts posted above by others actually show that the lion's share of fault does NOT lie in the lap of the Feds....what next...should we become communist or something....let the gov't be responsible for EVERYTHING? Including controlling unruly people such as you aand I for posting our thoughts in public?
Come....what I said above is to show you the magnitude of knee jerk reactions....please Mo. Slow down.
You mean wellhere...but at the same time...it sounds as if you can't stop bashing the Repubs.
Even when the blaim falls short of party affiliation.
Please...go write a paper on the multiple cures people are finding on Lyme...you are such a talented lady....put that talent, energy and time to GOOD use.
I have spent way too much on this subject myself.
Have a Good One...see another post.
Trout
-------------------- Now is the time in your life to find the "tiger" within. Let the claws be bared, and Lyme BEWARE!!! www.iowalymedisease.com [/URL] Posts: 5262 | From North East Iowa | Registered: Sep 2002
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Have to hope that levels out to more objectivity and less of the useless stuff.. The MSNBC broadcast Olberman editorial I just posted was a sobering shift. Hope it sticks.
So was every Sunday morning news show, even the conservative ones.. and most news on the subject.. 'cept one network, of course.
Point being, this ain't just my concern, it's everyones.
The White House is trying very hard to shift ALL blame to the State and locals.. even the victims.
That can't be tolerated.
Starting Friday, the White House started to blame state and local officials and even the victims who were stranded without transportation when the Hurricane arrived.
Timeline
Friday, Aug. 26: Gov. Kathleen Blanco declares a state of emergency in Louisiana and requests troop assistance.
Saturday, Aug. 27: Gov. Blanco asks for federal state of emergency. A federal emergency is declared giving federal officials the authority to get involved.
Sunday, Aug. 28: Mayor Ray Nagin orders mandatory evacuation of New Orleans. President Bush warned of Levee failure by National Hurricane Center. National Weather Service predicts area will be "uninhabitable" after Hurricane arrives. First reports of water toppling over the levee appear in local paper.
Monday, Aug. 29: Levee breaches and New Orleans begins to fill with water, Bush travels to Arizona and California to discuss Medicare. FEMA chief finally responds to federal emergency, dispatching employees but giving them two days to arrive on site.
Tuesday, Aug. 30: Mass looting reported, security shortage cited in New Orleans. Pentagon says that local authorities have adequate National Guard units to handle hurricane needs despite governor's earlier request. Bush returns to Crawford for final day of vacation. TV coverage is around-the-clock Hurricane news.
Wednesday, Aug. 31: Tens of thousands trapped in New Orleans including at Convention Center and Superdome in "medieval" conditions. President Bush finally returns to Washington to establish a task force to coordinate federal response. Local authorities run out of food and water supplies.
Thursday, Sept. 1: New Orleans descends into anarchy. New Orleans Mayor issues a "Desperate SOS" to federal government. Bush claims nobody predicted the breach of the levees despite multiple warnings and his earlier briefing.
Friday, Sept. 2: Karl Rove begins Bush administration campaign to blame state and local officials--despite their repeated requests for help. Bush stages a photo-op--diverting Coast Guard helicopters and crew to act as backdrop for cameras. Levee repair work orchestrated for president's visit and White House press corps.
Saturday, Sept. 3: Bush blames state and local officials. Senior administration official (possibly Rove) caught in a lie claiming Gov. Blanco had not declared a state of emergency or asked for help.
Monday, Sept. 5: New Orleans officials begin to collect their dead.
Those are the facts. State and local officials asked for help as people in their city suffered. The Bush administration didn't get the job done and when their failure became an embarrassment they attacked those asking for help.
The New York Times reported on Friday that Karl Rove and White House communications director Dan Bartlett "rolled out a plan...to contain the political damage from the administration's response to Hurricane Katrina." The core of the strategy is "to shift the blame away from the White House and toward officials of New Orleans and Louisiana."
This is the same pattern of smearing that the used now for a decade. Now, Hurricane victims are attacked when the Bush administration failed to do their duty to help them.
It isn't just the Bush administration. Republican Senator Rick Santorum blamed victims in a TV interview and House Speaker Dennis Hastert suggested New Orleans should not be rebuilt.
Mo
[ 07. September 2005, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
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troutscout
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3121
posted
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
-------------------- Now is the time in your life to find the "tiger" within. Let the claws be bared, and Lyme BEWARE!!! www.iowalymedisease.com [/URL] Posts: 5262 | From North East Iowa | Registered: Sep 2002
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24bit-moderate
Unregistered
posted
Mo, the contents of your timeline is pure propaganda. I'll post the correct one later when I have more time. When are you going to answer my questions? Afraid to? You can't find any excuses can you.
Mo, you're the most politically biased person I've ever come across in my life and it affects every single breath of yours. You can't find anything good in Bush, nothing. Yet when you call me a righter winger Bush groupie, which isn't true, I can say good things about Clinton or other Democrats. Why is that? Could it be that I'm a moderate Republican and you're a far left extremist? Yeah, I think so.
Like I predicted a few days ago, when the public found out the truth as to how badly the governor has and continues to botch this operation, they would realize that the blame game was initiated early on by the press and Democrats to cover for their own because they knew how bad they messed up. Now that the truth is coming out, a CNNUSATODAY poll today says that only 13% of Americans hold Bush accountable for the relief problems in New Orleans. I think it was around 50% a few days ago, now down to 13%. And I'm not saying the feds didn't screw up on there ned a bit. They did, but nothing compared to the before and after responsibilities of the state and local folks.
You make it very clear to all that you still haven't learned Civics and the responsibilities of government and the constitution. You have made it clear that you don't hold people accountable for bad decisions unless they're white and Republican for the most part, especially if the white person has money. You don't hold the governor and mayor accountable, both democrats, nor do you hold the people that stayed accountable for their poor decisions, almost entirely democrats. All get a big Mo pass.
I do hold Bush accountable for having a complete moron running FEMA. Brown is incompetent plain and simple. Wow, I criticized Bush Mo, looky there. I'm fair and balanced unlike your viewpoint. But even though Brown is a moron and caused a 24 delay, it's a small screw up compared to the monster state and local mistakes. The mountain of incompetence has been with the governor and the mayor, period. And if you disagree with that, then you don't know the law and you don't have your facts straight. The facts are all there, and that's why you can't answer my questions!
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posted
24, wipe the foam from your mouth every now and again, OK?
I and noone writing, resporting, looking at this huge disaster has ever said the state and locals did not make mistakes ...
of course they did..
But the government failures did not only lie with appointing Brown..
You've got allot of scew and spin here, and I have no interest in figuring out why it is so important to you to try and bully valid concerns by dubbing them as 'Bush bashing'
Since when did holding the acting government officials acountable for major failures resulting in death become partisan?
I guess it has been for a long time, but to my mind the deaths of many thousands superceeds any of that kind of denial and supression..
When state and local authorities ran the evacuation of New Orleans, did they consider that 100,000 to 200,000 people might not have transportation? Appahrently not. Did they know that more than 25 percent of the city lived below the poverty line? Yes. Did they consider that a lot of those folks are sick or elderly? Appahrently not.
When local authorities put out word that food, fresh water and other help would be available at the city's Convention Center, did it occur to them that more than 15,000 people would show up, only to discover there was no help at all? When city streets sunk into a lawlessness too frightening to allow rescue workers to perform their work, why was neither the National Guard or the regular Army already prepared to swoop in?
It's not as if the govt. authorities were not warned. President George W. Bush was simply wrong when he asserted that, "I don't think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees" in New Orleans. In fact, the breach of the levees was widely anticipated. Unfortunately, government at the state, local and federal levels was not always listening.
Last year, as the cost of the Iraq war SOARED, Bush cut about 80 percent of what the Army Corps(engineers) requested for levee improvement. The Federal Emergency Management Agency listed a hurricane strike on New Orleans among its top three most likely catastrophic disasters facing America...
You might think --- with the fourth anniversary of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks possibly fast approaching, that the Feds would have a better handle on how to manage a large urban disaster. You might think they would have become better coordinated with local governments and beefed up electronic communications, a critically serious problem during 911.
You might think that, and you'd be wrong...
That's why, I'm more outraged by how sluggishly our government, the world's most powerful, responded to the crisis. Katrina was the first big test of Bush's Department of 'Homeland Security', and it FAILED.. big time.
The amount of death as a result of that is staggering..
Sure, if you really must..take a chunk of it and place it on the State. go ahead if it makes you feel better...
that doesn't erase enourmous isues and concerns for Americans.
About the almighty 'poll'.. which is a direct result if intentiinal media manipulation, some of them focus on moving the poll, however I have seen other 'polls' with drastically different results than you post.. and I contend that polls matter little in truth. We also cannot poll the dead and traumatized, or thise on the scene..can we? Only the politician is interested in polls.
It also, IMO, is a terrible disrespect of those who died to be so hell bent on protecting your party interests. Thought maybe this would change that for folks to our countru's betterment.
Moderate? I dunno, whatever you say, man..it matters little, and means nothing in this.
I know I feel posting with you is like talking to Bill O'Rielly..
I know that Joe Scarborough (avid media Bush supporter) just as one example -- has raised some tough questions, appropriate ones..along these lines and more, actually -- regarding the issue of FEDERAL performance. He's right to do so.
Even if we imagine the state and local governments were total and complete buffoons .. it is the Federal response that moves big troops, big boats, big money..they are the only ones that can do that and Pres can do it with one phone call, even from vacation..think about that. The kind or relief and response needed to meet this KIND OF disaster..
--one they knew about, and one that they also knew of the state 'failures' surrounding.
Blaming State with 'most' of it is cowardly, saving political face.. and criminally negligent.
Some will refuse to see that, some won't..
Either way all our future's and children's at stake..regarding a compassionate and objective WAKE UP of American people -- and that's about all I care about..
Mo
-------------------- life shrinks and expands in proportion to one's courage -- anais nin Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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24bit-moderate
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posted
I'm just interested in the truth, whatever it is. You certainly did jump on the initial bandwagon of bashing the feds and say nothing about the state because you didn't know how the hierarchy of government worked. Now that the evidence is overwhelming, you're back tracking to admit there was state fault. I'm emphasizing the state/local fault so much for two reasons:
1. Initially it was ignored by the press, and the far left whacko's went to town with it......until they got a lesson in civics. So I was countering that ridiculous left wing charge.
2. Because it truly is at the heart of why so much is screwed up and why so many people are dead.
Even today, the mayor and governor are having a little cat fight power trip struggle over declaring that people will be forcably removed from N.O. The governor definitely has a huge attitude and has a power trip. Her political career is over. Why aren't you talking about these two goofballs and their continued circus?
I don't agree with O'Reilly on a lot of things. I'm about 95% with him on the Katrina issues though.
My main problem with your response is that you immediately came in and blamed the feds like they were supposed to be initial repsonders. Now you know it's not designed to be that way.
The mayor didn't even follow his own plan to bus people out. The local and state plans didn't include a scenario in which the levee's would break. A logical person who doesn't know anything about N.O. would conclude that it must not be expected to break if it's not even in their emergency plan right? Newspaper reporters doing stories on doomsday events don't define the local governments view on the levee's....their emergency plan does. Bush sees that they didn't expect it to happen in their plan, and he's right. They didn't expect it. Should the local/state government have expected it? Yes. So why in the world is that Bush's problem or fault?
Regarding the bill to pay for improving the levee's, you know darn well those bill's have all kinds of pork attached and are often just unacceptable. The state of LA has had decades to get this funded, even 8 years under Clinton couldn't get a clear bill through to get this done. Like I said, LA hasn't been serious about getting this done as they've blown huge money on other major projects like casino's, etc. The state certainly could've worked out a long term fianacing deal to get it done and been creative on top of all that. Blaming a 20 billion dollar bill full of pork not getting passed by Bush is hardly credible criticism.
You may believe the war on terror is a joke, but most people don't. The money spent on that is pennies compared to the dollars we'll be spending if we get attacks here.
Imagine how easy it would be to pack five boats full of high explosives and set them off next to even Level 5 strength levee's. During a normal business day in N.O. when everyone was there working, city full, and having the levee's catastrophically fail.......could you imagine the death toll??? Imagine the cost. Imagine nuclear dirty bombs going off in other cities on top of that where people could never return to the city because of the radiation. Imagine the cost!! And we still get hurricanes on top of that!!
No, the money spent on defeating terrorism is money well spent, but I know you don't see that.
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I never said I expected Feds to be first responders..
I said they needed to be FED responsers, and proportionally due to thier ability and manpower their inadequacy caused massive death and anarchy. Things that the State could not have done or controlled even of they were the best at the game in the moment.. Things that we need to rely on nationally.
I repeatedly said that State also made mistakes..
This has nothing to do with my previous issues with this administration, I have not tied them other than the media and public response... at least not tied them yet.
This is horifying, and the stories from the survivors and leaders on the ground are horrific. None of us know the full story.
Simply...proportionally.. our Fed government has powers and ability far greater than the State..and this disaster certainly required those powers much sooner.. and they KNEW about it.
Mo
-------------------- life shrinks and expands in proportion to one's courage -- anais nin Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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Softballmom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6235
posted
I might regret this but I want to say how I feel. It seems most are.
Mo,
You keep claiming Budget cuts on the Bush administration.
In 1999 106 million dollars to the New Orleans District Army Corps of Engeneers. The Local and state only added 41 million of their own money with that in 2001. Spending 147 million. Don't tell me that they couldn't have added more. Wish I could find a figure in 2001 of how much they spent on unnesary things just to try to bring in more money to their state rather than ensuring safety. I didn't even look past 1999 but I am sure money was there The questioned, was it used properly?
Those levies could have been repared well before the budget cuts during the Bush administration.
They were dipping into the Levee fund to fund new casinos. Yet here we still are blaming Bush. Yes you blamed Bush directly.
Yes all parts are accountable for a breakdown yet you continue to try to pull in spacifics to point the finger at Bush then also say that you are not bringing polotics into this and others are.
You can't keep bring up the Bush administration and also at the same time say this is not a political thing.
The finger pointing started way to early and where was the majority of that fingerpointing coming from.
Flat out Bush Haters was where it was coming from.
Which is not suprising to me and should be expected from everyone. That is the Dems track record.
But it seems the republicans are always doing it in defence not just doing it outright due to peronal opinion and politics.
I didn't know whether the Govoner and Mayor were republican or Democrat and don't even care. I just look at the facts and come to my conclusion.
The biggest breakdown was state and local Government and this horrible tradgedy could have been minimised BY THEM well before Bush ever took office.
So why do we want to bring up Bush's budget cuts? Huh? Tell me please. Why won't you look at the fact that alot of this could have been prevented years if not decades ago. They just kept on with what they had and hoped for the best.
Don't mean to offend anyone I am just calling it as I and a whole lot of Americans see it.
So when are we going to put this aside and focus on the human suffering at this time just as you have pointed out in past posts.
Then when things get better put action to the fingerpointing. Quit talking and do something about it.
Quit all the nail biting and bashing and actually try to add some subtance to all this bitterness.
IMO, that is what I am seeing sheer bitterness, not all on the lost lives but the lost election.
Can you imagine what would be said had Kerry been then Pres and this happened. A whole different senario.
I wish for once in our nation we can be Americans and not Republican or Democrat. And not matter how you sugar coat it that is what it is all about.
-------------------- It's not the Lyme, I just can't spell! Posts: 1331 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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my concerns and other's from all walks of life are not 'flat-out Bush hating concerns'.. in this disaster, and other things, certain concerns just cannot and should not be dismised with that worn out phrase..
Since when are citizens not to hold an acting governemtn (not just one man, I address the system acting today) responsible for what they do and don't do, especially when massive death is involved in the issue?
Yes, I agree..
the government has been informed ot the Levees a looooong time, pre-Bush.. and allot of folks along the line could have and should have done more.
The concern relating to our current administration is that they told the public this was a surprise, and anly their part in all the cut backs and denial of funding.. only as applied to what they knew, and what appeals they themselves denied, specifically.
That can be acertained by the appeals and reports given them over the past five years.. and then the fact that they are claiming they did not anticipate what would happen in a CAT 5.
Something on the blame game between repobs and dems (which I wholeheartedly agree is not only useless, but dangerous..because huge issues are going unaddresed by the public as we all fight with eachother)
The accusations of me personally would be humerous if this topic was funny, I did NOT agree with everything about Clinton, OR Kerry.. but some will assert that of anyone raising real time issue with this admin's ACTIONS.
I believe that SOME of the Republican party, and SOME of the media have influenced that fervent and automatic view and response. They have trained some of the public ro view individuals raising any concerns about government activities that way, and that frightens me for us all.
Am I upset and angry with this administration? uh -- ya.. But I also have posted very valid reasons here for a couple of years now, and many just call me a Bush hater, and that is that. Therefore, nothing (or others speaking out in any position, or stature) nothing raised is heard. Don't you think that is to our detriment as a society? To have so many fallow cirizens be dubbed as not to be listened to at all? And to rareky if ever look at what the concerns or issues really are? And these are big issues, not just picky politic stuff.
I also have to raise the issue of the response to Clinton's affair and LIE about it.. with an intern..
incited such public outcry and such that he had impeachment on the table..
and you know what?? I agreed at the time!
Back when I could afford to be idealistic..believe it or not I was waaaay more idealistic years ago.. pre-Lyme, pre-911, and pre-Bush administration.. pre-allot of things..
I was outraged and felt a lie was a lie was a lie..
But now I am dumfounded and reeling in my mind over HOW in the World so many lies that have caused HUGE detriment.. to so many human beings, to our financial state, to the environment, you name it..
Things documented in valid question, oncluding but not limited to:
Documented financial ties, long time old boy networking and actions around those interests, the 911 commission, the communications with Blair pre-War.. and on and on ...
Before anybody gets all in a huff.. and will also say I am upset with those 'liberals' who are unfair in their 'spin' of this and other things..that is no better than the other spin.
I'm not even saying impeachment, tho that would be my personal choice if I had it..honestly..
but no inquiries? No accountability?? No objectivity???
The Bush admin is not being help to near the same standard???
WHY?
intern vs ALL these other issues..
Impeachment proceedures vs. no accountability, no investigation, or holding findings of investigations far more serious that lying about an affair..no action whatsoever..
Will you tell me that is fair and balanced?
I may sign off here soon because this discussion isn't in exchange, hope that changes one day
But I would be interested in thoughts on this post....
Mo
[ 08. September 2005, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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Softballmom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6235
posted
Sometimes I wonder if we are watching the same television set.
I am going to try to back out of this topic because it becomes more political with every post.
Once again we find ourselves in a political tug of war. To our detriment I am sure that will never change, No matter what this country suffers.
Also if things don't change the country will suffer more and more for generations to come in the name of politics not just to terrorism and natural disasters or what ever else may arise. That is sadest thing.
-------------------- It's not the Lyme, I just can't spell! Posts: 1331 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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