posted
Here I hope is a subject that we, as students of health and recovery.. can discuss and share concerns on. This seems to be both a knee-jerk (post Katrina criticizm) political reaction, as well as cow-towing to PHARMACEUTICAL INTERESTS. We can at least agree on the evils of the drug company monry interests and their influence has perhaps brought the Pres to making a BAD (and ineffective) decision.
Bush just announced 7 Billion to fight a pandemic (therefore eluding to the idea there definately WILL be one..)
Yet there is no data, no info, nothing solid to base this on..or to educate ourselves in.. yet pharmaceuticals are being given mega bucks to develop vaccines and get meds ready.. neither of which can be prooven to work against the 'what if' and unidentified strain!
(yet we have EXISTING health epidemics ignored)
I hope some on both sides of the political spectrum can weigh in on the topic of health..
Here is some writing, obviously not Bush fan, but again, maybe we can stick yo the 'meat' on this one? This is similar to Lyme debacles IMO.
I am concerned this is fear based manipulating and poor choice in spending and health. It has been studied that the 1918 flu pandemic was largely contributed to by VACCINES. (live virus injection of that strain)
Mo
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AVIAN FLU HYSTERIA REACHES NEW PEAK
by John Rappaport
OCTOBER 8, 2005. The Bush administration is climbing on the bird-flu bandwagon with all hands and feet, suggesting a larger role for the military in the "inevitable" global pandemic that will lay the US low.
Quarantines are high on the list of strategies.
If you read The NY Times article below, you'll notice several things.
The GLOBAL toll for human bird flu now stands at about 100 cases, with 60 deaths. In other words, more people have died from being hit by phone books dropping out of 10th-story windows. To infer a global pandemic from these stats should earn any scientist a quick trip to a job washing dishes at Burger King.
The US Secretary of Health and Human Services states (far down in the Times piece) that the current avian flu strain is not likely to be the bug that does the job.
Massive production of vaccines is urged---despite the fact that such vaccine would not be able to target the eventual killer strain of the flu virus. (And of course, such vaccines aren't effective and safe anyway.)
The "debate" about who gets the vaccine first, the debate about which government agencies should lead the response to a pandemic that will kill millions, the debate about how extensive the quarantines should be---all of these sober deliberations put the PR cherry on the cake: "Well, if they're arguing about those factors, the pandemic itself is certainly a done deal, it's going to happen."
Yeah. That's the whole point of PR. Sell the core fantasy behind a welter of weighty and official statements.
The Times article doesn't mention that even these 100 cases of human bird flu and the 60 deaths have never been accorded the public scrutiny they deserve. What tests were run to find the virus in the patients? How accurate were the tests? Did they locate antibodies or the actual virus? If the actual virus, in what quantities did the virus reside in the bodies of the human beings?
These are all absolutely key questions, and they have not been answered.
It's quite possible that there are NO cases of human bird flu.
Further, what was the PRIOR condition of the patients before the supposed flu virus attacked? Were these people already suffering from weak immune systems? In that case, any old germ can sweep through and cause severe or lethal infections.
Beyond even these considerations, there is the background premise that animal germs can and do mutate to allow them to infect and kill humans.
((** note from Mo -- we know this can happen, tho))
This is a shaky piece of science, and it can only be confirmed or denied by actually investigating every single presumptive human case in great depth. We have no evidence that this has been done. Then, on top of that, proof would have to be offered that the germ in question really did mutate from animal hosts.
Some time ago, I published official figures from both the CDC and the American Lung Association, which showed that the canned figure of 36,000 annual flu deaths in the US is a lie. The figure is more like 800-1000. And then, we would need that same in-depth study of the patients to confirm even such low numbers.
If evidence is any indicator, as opposed to PR and scare tactics, there is no reason to suspect that avian flu is going to cause human problems.
As for all the animals that have been killed worldwide, most of them of course have been slaughtered to PREVENT the spread the avian flu. They haven't died FROM the flu germ. And the real reason for epidemics among farm animals (there are ALWAYS such epidemics on the march) is: these animals are raised in the most desolate and repellent conditions imaginable: overcrowded pens; feces everywhere; huge dusting with toxic antibiotics...
In such conditions, any old germ can spread and finish off large numbers of animals.
Huge presence of the military; widespread quarantines; government commands to citizens; compulsory vaccines; all based on no facts. What does this sound like to you?
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October 8, 2005
Bush Plan Shows U.S. Is Not Ready for Deadly Flu
NYT
By GARDINER HARRIS
WASHINGTON, Oct. 7 - A plan developed by the Bush administration to deal with any possible outbreak of pandemic flu shows that the United States is woefully unprepared for what could become the worst disaster in the nation's history.
A draft of the final plan, which has been years in the making and is expected to be released later this month, says a large outbreak that began in Asia would be likely, because of modern travel patterns, to reach the United States within "a few months or even weeks."
If such an outbreak occurred, hospitals would become overwhelmed, riots would engulf vaccination clinics, and even power and food would be in short supply, according to the plan, which was obtained by The New York Times.
The 381-page plan calls for quarantine and travel restrictions but concedes that such measures "are unlikely to delay introduction of pandemic disease into the U.S. by more than a month or two."
The plan's 10 supplements suggest specific ways that local and state governments should prepare now for an eventual pandemic by, for instance, drafting legal documents that would justify quarantines. Written by health officials, the plan does yet address responses by the military or other governmental departments.
The plan outlines a worst-case scenario in which more than 1.9 million Americans would die and 8.5 million would be hospitalized with costs exceeding $450 billion.
It also calls for a domestic vaccine production capacity of 600 million doses within six months, more than 10 times the present capacity.
On Friday, President Bush invited the leaders of the nation's top six vaccine producers to the White House to cajole them into increasing their domestic vaccine capacity, and the flu plan demonstrates just how monumental a task these companies have before them.
In the wake of Hurricane Katrina, the Bush administration's efforts to plan for a possible pandemic flu have become controversial, with many Democrats in Congress charging that the administration has not done enough. Many have pointed to the lengthy writing process of the flu plan as evidence of this.
But while the administration's flu plan, officially called the Pandemic Influenza Strategic Plan, closely outlines how the Health and Human Services Department may react during a pandemic, it skirts many essential decisions, like how the military may be deployed.
"The real shortcoming of the plan is that it doesn't say who's in charge," said a top health official who provided the plan to The Times. "We don't want to have a FEMA-like response, where it's not clear who's running what."
Still, the official, who asked for anonymity because the plan was not supposed to be distributed, called the plan a "major milestone" that was "very comprehensive" and sorely needed.
The draft provided to The Times is dated Sept. 30, and is stamped "for internal H.H.S. use only." The plan asks government officials to clear it by Oct. 6.
Christina Pearson, a spokeswoman for Health and Human Services Secretary Michael O. Leavitt, responded, "We recognize that the H.H.S. plan will be a foundation for a governmentwide plan, and that process has already begun."
Ms. Pearson said that Mr. Leavitt has already had one-on-one meetings with other cabinet secretaries to begin the coordination process across the federal government. But she emphasized that the plan given to The Times was a draft and had not been finalized.
Mr. Leavitt is leaving Saturday for a 10-day trip to at least four Asian nations, where he will meet with health and agriculture officials to discuss planning for a pandemic flu. He said at a briefing on Friday that the administration's flu plan would be officially released soon. He was not aware at the briefing that The Times had a copy of the plan. And he emphasized that the chances that the virus now killing birds in Asia would become a human pandemic were unknown but probably low. A pandemic is global epidemic of disease.
"It may be a while longer, but pandemic will likely occur in the future," he said.
And he said that flu planning would soon become a national exercise.
"It will require school districts to have a plan on how they will deal with school opening and closing," he said. "It will require the mayor to have a plan on whether or not they're going to ask the theaters not to have a movie."
"Over the next couple of months you will see a great deal of activity asking metropolitan areas, 'Are you ready?' If not, here is what must be done," he said.
A key point of contention if an epidemic strikes is who will get vaccines first. The administration's plan suggests a triage distribution for these essential medicines. Groups like the military, National Guard and other national security groups were left out.
Beyond the military, however, the first in line for essential medicines are workers in plants making the vaccines and drugs as well as medical personnel working directly with those sickened by the disease. Next are the elderly and severely ill. Then come pregnant women, transplant and AIDS patients, and parents of infants. Finally, the police, firefighters and government leaders are next.
The plan also calls for a national stockpile of 133 million courses of antiviral treatment. The administration has bought 4.3 million. The plan details the responsibilities of top health officials in each phase of a spreading pandemic, starting with planning and surveillance efforts and ending with coordination with the Department of Defense.
Much of the plan is a dry recitation of the science and basic bureaucratic steps that must be followed as a virus races around the globe. But the plan has the feel of a television movie-of-the-week when it describes a possible pandemic situation that begins, "In April of the current year, an outbreak of severe respiratory illness is identified in a small village."
"Twenty patients have required hospitalization at the local provincial hospital, five of whom have died from pneumonia and respiratory failure," the plan states.
The flu spreads and begins to make headlines around the world. Top health officials swing into action and isolate the new viral strain in laboratories. The scientists discover that "the vaccine developed previously for the avian strain will only provide partial protection," the plan states.
In June, federal health officials find airline passengers infected with the virus "arriving in four major U.S. cities," the plan states. By July, small outbreaks are being reported around the nation. It spreads.
As the outbreak peaks, about a quarter of workers stay home because they are sick or afraid of becoming sick. Hospitals are overwhelmed.
"Social unrest occurs," the plan states. "Public anxiety heightens mistrust of government, diminishing compliance with public health advisories." Mortuaries and funeral homes are overwhelmed.
Presently, an avian virus has decimated chicken and other bird flocks in 11 countries. It has infected more than 100 people, about 60 of whom have died, but nearly all of these victims got the disease directly from birds. An epidemic is only possible when a virus begins to pass easily among humans.
Lawrence K. Altman contributed reporting for this article.
[ 01. November 2005, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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Today's British Medical Journal features an editorial on the bird flu in which they state the following: The lack of sustained human-to-human transmission suggests that this AH5N1 avian virus does not currently have the capacity to cause a human pandemic.
While they do go on to say the virus could mutate with a influenza A virus and has the potential to acquire the means for rapid human to human transmission, it does NOT have this ability now. All the preparation and fear being created in the media is about a theoretical speculation.
OK -- I fully believe in being prepared, but this is nothing even close to following recommendations made by experts to New Orleans that if implemented would have saved 1,000 lives, 500,000 homes and well over $100 billion from Hurricane Katrina.
No, this is all about creating fear and panic to benefit the drug companies. Now, I am still not opposed to being prepared for this potential bird flu pandemic. It is POSSIBLE it might materialize. But if it did, there is no way that the flu vaccine or Tamiflu will mitigate its damage. No way!
We are spending billions on a disease that has not even mutated to human-human transmission yet, right now you can only get it by handlind infected birds or their feces..
and they are ignoring SO MANY EXISTING infections and health concerns..
Mo
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November 1, 2005
Bush Calls for $7.1 Billion to Prepare for Bird Flu Threat
By TIMOTHY WILLIAMS
President Bush today unveiled a strategy to combat the threat of an avian flu pandemic, calling for $7.1 billion in emergency spending to stockpile reserves of medicines and to press ahead with the development of a new vaccine.
While no cases of the H5N1 avian flu virus have been detected in the United States, more than 60 people have died from the virus, all of them in Asia, and 140 million birds have been killed worldwide to try to stop its spread.
The virus has recently been found in birds in Europe, though there is no evidence that the flu has been spread from one person to another. Those who have contracted the virus have had direct contact with an infected bird, which could include poultry as well as wild birds, including ducks.Experts fear that if the virus mutates into a form that can be easily spread through human-to-human contact, the result could be a global outbreak, potentially including many deaths. Almost half of the approximately 120 people who have contracted the virus have died so far.
"There is no pandemic flu in our country, or in the world, at this time," Mr. Bush said in a speech at the National Institutes of Health in Bethesda, Md. "But if we wait for a pandemic to appear, it will be too late to prepare, and one day many lives could be needlessly lost because we failed to act today."The president's strategy calls for building national reserves of antiviral medicines like Tamiflu and Relenza, which can help reduce the effects of the flu though they cannot prevent flu from occurring. The stockpile of antiviral drugs would be reserved for first responders, like police officers and health-care workers, as well as at-risk populations during the first stages of a pandemic, the president said. The Bush administration is seeking to have enough antiviral medication stockpiled for about 20 million people.
The proposal, which is scheduled to be released in greater detail tomorrow, also calls for the government to spend about $1.5 billion to purchase doses of flu vaccine that may provide some protection against the avian flu virus. An avian flu vaccine cannot be developed until a pandemic actually occurs, because researchers need samples in order to develop an antidote.
"It would not be a perfect match for the pandemic flu," the president said, "but would likely offer some protection."
The Bush administration has awarded two contracts worth a total of $162.5 million to two pharmaceutical companies to produce enough vaccine to protect 20 million people. Sanofi-Aventis, a company based in France that was awarded one of the contracts, has successfully tested a vaccine prototype against the avian flu virus, based on cases already seen in Asia.
Mr. Bush also said today that he would propose that Congress approve a $2.8 billion plan to accelerate research in cell culture, a technology that offers the possibility of finding a vaccine faster - and the ability to produce it in greater quantities more quickly - than does the current egg-based technology.
The goal, Mr. Bush said, was to have the capacity to [/b]"produce enough vaccine for every American within six months."
The president's speech came as international health experts were meeting in Australia to discuss the crisis.
In Canada, officials said it would take at least one week to determine whether the flu found in 33 wild ducks in Quebec and Manitoba is the H5N1 strain, The Associated Press reported.
While outlining his strategy, Mr. Bush said the government would continue to work with the World Health Organization and other nations to help identify outbreaks of the virus and to help stop its spread. Mr. Bush said that 88 nations and nine international organizations had joined an effort that requires members to immediately share information and provide samples to the World Health Organization. The president said he was asking Congress to allot $251 million to help other nations train personnel, expand surveillance and testing and develop plans in order to quickly halt the spread of any outbreak.
In addition, about $100 million would be spent by the federal government to help states and local governments develop their own plans. The Senate has already approved an $8 billion plan to help hospitals and health agencies prepare for a pandemic.
The president said that the threat of a global outbreak should be taken seriously in light of the high number of fatalities that occurred during previous pandemics, including the 1918 influenza pandemic, which killed 20 million people, including 500,000 in the United States. The 1918 outbreak, which decreased life expectancy rates in the United States by 13 years, was followed by influenza pandemics in 1957 and 1968, which killed millions around the world.
"If history is our guide, there is reason for concern," said Mr. Bush.
* Mr. Bush also urged Congress to approve legislation that would protect vaccine manufacturers from lawsuits, which the president said has led to a sharp reduction in the availability of vaccines. "This leaves our nation vulnerable in the event of a pandemic," he said.Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mr. Bush also urged Congress to approve legislation that would protect vaccine manufacturers from lawsuits, which the president said has led to a sharp reduction in the availability of vaccines. "This leaves our nation vulnerable in the event of a pandemic," he said.
Wow.
Hmmm..why do you suppose there are so many LAWSUITS regarding vaccines?? I am not at all comfortable with this tidbit either. Lergislation to curb lawsuits BEFORE we even get a chance to see what the vaccines do to people who take them??
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Hey yo Mo,
Can't you be positive about anything? Can't you read all your sources and then condense your opinion down to a palatable concise post? I know it's a girl thing that's why most men tune out their female partners halfway thru their stories of how their day went...or whatever.
Anyway, look we only have one lab that is capable of manufacturing a vaccine in this country. I know we can't do anything about it till it mutates but....when do you want the paperwork process to get started? It has to start now so we will have all the money and facillities to in and on line when needed...
Also, perhaps...just possibly the influx of these monies may pave the way for research for our lymie problem...
I don't think this is a scare tactic at all...there are ducks in Canada that have the avian flu even now......zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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lymeloco
Unregistered
posted
virus found in Canada CTV.ca News Staff
Wild waterfowl carrying the H5 strain of avian flu virus have been found in Quebec and Manitoba -- but there's no reason to panic, officials from the Canadian Food Inspection Agency said Monday.
"Preliminary testing has identified H5 influenza in 28 samples from Quebec, and five from Manitoba," Jim Clark of the CFIA told a news conference.
However, he added, because there are nine different H5 subtypes, "the chance of it being H5N1 are likely fairly remote."
That strain is behind the avian flu problem growing in Asia, where more than 60 people have died of H5N1 infection picked up from poultry.
Clark noted that the virus does not appear to be killing the birds.
"The evidence we have observed strongly indicates that these healthy birds were not infected with the same virus that is currently present in Asia," he said.
Health officials in Winnipeg conducting tests on the H5-infected birds won't know whether they have H5N1 until mid-week.
When asked why with no danger yet, this information was being released, Clark responded: "To make sure there's no misinformation and no panic in the Canadian public."
He added that Canadian officials wanted to reassure trade partners, especially the United States, so they won't stop buying Canadian poultry.
"Some countries are very much risk-averse and will take advantage of the situation to sever ties," Clark said.
Viruses endemic
The birds, which are migratory, are believed to be among thousands that have been tested in Canada.
Even if the Canadian birds are carrying the H5N1 virus, it does not mean they are necessarily related to the viruses behind the poultry outbreaks in southeast Asia.
"It is important to clarify that the avian influenza virus is not new to wild birds," Clark said. "Experts worldwide know that this virus, in one form or another, has circulated among wild birds around the world for hundreds, or perhaps even for thousands of years."
Indeed, it's not the first time that avian viruses have been found in North America. For more than a decade, parts of Mexico suffered through an outbreak of the H5N2 avian flu in poultry operations.
And last year in Canada, testing revealed that the avian flu found on a goose and duck farm near Abbotsford, B.C. was not the H5 variety. Instead, the CFIA said that the 37,000 geese on the Fraser Valley Duck and Goose Ltd. farm were exposed to the H7N3 strain of avian influenza virus.
The outbreak caused no major human health problems, but forced the culling of some 16 million poultry.
So far, the outbreaks in Asia have infected 121 people in Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia and Cambodia.
With the strain crawling through Europe as migrating fowl fly westward, there are mounting fears that the virus could mutate into one that can easily spread among humans and thus prompt a global pandemic.
Earlier in the month, Australia lifted a ban on live bird imports from Canada, after officials in Ottawa provided compelling evidence proving the country was free of H5N1.
Australian officials announced the ban after three imported racing pigeons from Canada tested positive for bird flu antibodies. The pigeons, which were later destroyed, tested positive for bird flu antibodies while being held in quarantine in the southern city of Melbourne.
That means the three birds weren't infected with avian flu, but rather that they had fought off a previous infection.
Antibodies help strengthen the immune system and, unlike the viruses they fight, aren't infectious.
Scientists re-create 1918 flu pandemic virus Could help to stop emerging strains By Scott Allen, Globe Staff | October 6, 2005
Scientists have re-created the virus that caused the horrific 1918 Spanish flu pandemic, then sickened mice with the synthetic virus to gain chilling insights into what made the 1918 flu such an efficient killer.
Article Tools Printer friendly E-mail to a friend Science RSS feed Available RSS feeds Most e-mailed Reprints/permissions More: Globe front page | Boston.com Sign up for: Globe Headlines e-mail | Breaking News Alerts Federal officials said the breakthrough, based on bits of DNA taken from tissue samples of the flu's long-dead victims, will help them detect signs that emerging flu strains could be particularly dangerous. But critics warned that the researchers may have inadvertently handed terrorists a potential weapon.
The 1918 flu, which killed 30 million to 50 million people worldwide, bears some similarity to the avian flu now circulating in Southeast Asia, said researchers with the Influenza Genome Sequencing Project. But in a telephone briefing, project leader Jeffery K. Taubenberger stressed that current flu strains would have to undergo several important genetic mutations to become as dangerous as the Spanish flu.
Officials at the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the agency that re-created the 1918 virus, said their work will allow other researchers to develop more effective medicines and vaccines.
''We have been able to unmask the 1918 virus, and it is revealing to us some of the secrets that will help us prepare for and predict the next pandemic," said Dr. Julie Gerberding, director of the CDC, during a press briefing on Tuesday.
But the resurrection of the 1918 flu in a federal laboratory -- where it proved at least 100 times more lethal to mice than other flu strains -- set off alarms among some public health specialists, who warned that the world remains unprepared for such an outbreak.
The 1918 flu ''went like Sherman went through Georgia" during the Civil War, said Barry R. Bloom, dean of the Harvard School of Public Health. If a similar strain of flu returns, he added, ''we are very, very vulnerable."
The Influenza Genome Sequencing Project, coordinated by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, has been controversial almost since it began in 1995. No samples of the Spanish flu virus remained, but Taubenberger and other researchers believed that they could still find genetic information about the disease if they could find remains of people who died from it.
They located preserved lung autopsies from victims of the flu as well as tissue from a female flu victim who was buried in the frozen ground of northern Alaska. Researchers from government agencies and New York's Mt. Sinai School of Medicine then painstakingly re-created the virus's DNA. The team published its findings on the last three virus genes in the journal Nature today, and placed detailed genetic information on the Internet.
A separate group, led by the CDC in Atlanta, used the genetic blueprint to re-create the virus in a lab, and test its potency against other flu strains. Their results are being published tomorrow in the journal Science. The researchers found that the Spanish flu could grow without a key chemical ingredient required by other flu viruses, allowing it to burrow deeply into the lungs with lethal results, especially among young, otherwise healthy people.
Critics said it was shortsighted to resurrect such a killer disease, warning that the genetic blueprint could potentially be used to create a bioweapon, and that the flu samples in the lab could be lost, stolen, or accidentally released to the public. ''They are throwing open a door that should remain shut," said Edward Hammond, US director of the Sunshine Project, a group concerned with the proliferation of bioweapons.
Federal officials said they minimized risk to the public by handling the virus under strict safety precautions, including self-contained breathing devices for the researchers. They noted that the Spanish flu is less dangerous to the public than it was in 1918 because people have built up partial immunity through exposure to similar, though less dangerous, flu strains. In addition, they said, two antiviral medicines not available in 1918 appear to be at least partially effective.
Flu viruses require constant monitoring because their genetic structure can mutate rapidly, suddenly allowing the disease to jump from animals to people or giving it new powers to infect or kill. Taubenberger, a geneticist at the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology in Maryland, said the 1918 Spanish flu probably became able to infect people only a couple of years before the global outbreak.
The avian flu strains in Southeast Asia ''could go down a similar path" to cause a major human outbreak, said Taubenberger, but ''they are early on in this process" of genetic mutation. Since 1997, global disease trackers have found strains of avian flu that contain three of the roughly six key genetic changes that launched the 1918 virus, Taubenberger said, but seldom more than one mutation in any single strain.
posted
I see a trend here with far lefty's. Whether it's terrorism or a deadly pandemic threat, the far lefty's don't feel there is a threat, and wouldn't recognize it until after the event occured. They aren't willing to look into the future for likely disasters and do something to prevent them right now. It involves time and money, but they aren't willing to invest in it.....and instead blame the government for being corrupt for doing thier best to deal with it. It's really quite amusing to hear these claims from the left, but it does make the day a little less boring I guess. LOL! Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
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"Whether it's terrorism or a deadly pandemic threat, the far lefty's don't feel there is a threat, and wouldn't recognize it until after the event occured. They aren't willing to look into the future for likely disasters and do something to prevent them right now."
Well...lets look at that.
On this issue, a hey factor to consider is that there is no proof that this IS a 'deadly pandemic threat' .. there is nothing to back that statement up.
It is a possible .. as have been many of the more virulent infectious threats in the past gew years.
So, ya..taking action is important as needed.
Of course the woefully inadequayr preparedness for Katrina and New Orleans' infrastructure..and the known threat and effect of a cat 5 comes to mind..
But then this idea of dealing with a threat before it is one, also brings to mind the drastic shift in American stance on War.. rather than what we have done for 200 years.. (work with the UN security council and present issue to invade, collaboratively) America now is a country that invades if we do not like the way a leader is working within his country.. and based on a possible threat from that country somewhere down the road.
Meanwhile...we have the real threat of Terrorism, natural disaster, healthcare, poverty.. and many disease conditions and epidemics (including Lyme, but there are many others).. and where is our government on those EXISTING threats?
--- including the threat of the Terrorist groups of the same ilk as thise who actually attacked us?
So, you support 7 billion for a germ that hasn't even mutated yet, and there's no evidence that it will?
(unless there's something they are not telling us, which is always a probability )
I dunno...
this thing makes no sence, I would think especially to the discerning Lyme patient..
what gives? It's similar to the hype and money spent on West Nile.
Naaah...
I see more obvious explainations for the hype and the move..
couldn't it perhaps be a knee jerk reaction to (attempt) to politically gain by posing as 'rough and ready for anything' .. after the sharp public image decline having to do with Katrina.. (and other domestic isues gone in the pooper)
..and perhaps a bit of a media 'sucker punch'.. in a desperate attempt to get Amarican's minds back in fear mode.. away from the War (this admin is bottoming out in public support there).. and the indictments if Delay and Libby and others.. and all that encompases.. the Supreme Court mess, ect, ect..
However, some of the news folks that have stated they thought the Bird Flu announcement was an intentional distraction.. are reporting (MSNBC) ..that it didn't work..
Senate went into a lock down last night over Iraq and the dealings between Cheney's office and Wilson..
Carter came out and stated publicly that the information pre-Iraq War was at the very least manipulated by this admin..
and yet another prominant member of the Republican Party spoke up and saod that he thinks Rove should be let go under the circumstances..
while Libby is getting ready for his araignment tomorrow.
So, if it was what it looks like it was.. a scare tactic placed also for politocal gain.. and to save face..
ut ain't working so far.
But ... I digress..
Moreover, where is the justification for 7 billion to 'prepare' for a POSSIBLE pandemic.. and create vaccines they already admit may not work (since they don't know the agent)
I don't think it's too outlandish to ask for justification.. and to ask why other real threats are left unaddressed.
Mo
[ 03. November 2005, 08:22 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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LabRat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 78
posted
``Well....lets look at that''. You know, she's right! Not much proof that a pandemic is just around the corner. There's only 60 or so deaths and another 60 or so sick. A lot of birds have been destroyed in the effort to contain it, course it hasn't but well, it might work a little later on. Spending all that money on the off chance it will really spread like wildfire on a dry grass pasture is really sort of like guess work isn't it. You get the best brains in the world to think about this and then decide if you want to spend the money to put the equipment in place to produce the vaccine in six months instead of a couple of years. We could let nature take it's course. Nature has a system of weeding out the old, sick and stupid that has work since time began. It's a harsh system but it works, sort of like communism.
And another thing..... The thought of lowering or eliminating liability for vaccine producers, I mean what were they thinking?? Where would it all end? Next the American aircraft industry, what's left of it, would want the same treatment. Having to set aside $80,000 per airplane before the first rivet is pounded, tends to make the manufactures squint just a might. (1990 figures)
So today I read where for the last 200 years we've been taking our problems to the UN. Have they really been around that long, if so what has been accomplished and will they be here in another 200 years, don't think so! Then there was her general synopses of the war on terrorism which I enjoyed very much and learned a great deal from as always.
I came away with the impression that we shouldn't rush into situations after being bitten on the *** , but wait and analyze the pros, cons, cause and effect and give the demonstrations time to organize and tell us what we should do. You know, forgive and forget etc.
I just hope that if they have to start burying the dead in pits, that I wind up with a lefties nose in each armpit!
Going on vacation for a week or so, (while there are no travel restrictions) see you all when I get back.
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
I watched a special on pbs last night about vector born diseases....
According to this program the west nile virus from africa hit New York and the cdc said it was st louis encephalitis...it took a vet working in the zoo to figure it out...after the cdc and the FDA told her to go pound salt...
I believe 800 folks have died from this disease nationwide...some just get the fever some the virus and some get the form that paralyzes folks...it has spread accross our country...
the powers that be are thinking of returning to DDT to erradicate it... Malaria is also epidemic in africa as well as in some areas the black fly transfers a parasite that causes blindness.....it's being treated thru free meds from Merc....
The follow up to this special will probably bring up ticks so I'm keeping an eye open for it...
We should not wait till death is at the door... Get things in place to act swiftly...
As far as the other stuff in your post that was'nt on the subject...well I think I've already addressed those issues in previous posts.....
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
it is clear to me that a politically strategic scare tactic is most definitely being employed here; just as member(s) of the administration are being sent to trial, and the truth of not only the CIA leak but the egregious lies given as justifications for attacking iraq become all too clear to mainstream america.
is there a threat? possibly. how the hell can we know for sure? who do you trust? yes, it's good to be prepared. but scare tactics work to immobilize and placate the public, which is precisely what bushie junior wants. keep the nation in a perpetual state of fear, terrorism, pandemic, whatever, and they'll be too scared to question your policies.
so, heads up. be cautious on both sides. think for yourselves.
(also, tony z, your comment about women is totally sexist and off topic.)
posted
Unfortunately I think that is a large part of the hype..
perpetual fear tactics (some now uncovered as outright lies) have been a primary mode of operation with this admin.. (one of their more facist qualities)
I also think it is a sucker punch sort of distraction --
this is typical, remember Clinton shot off a few missiles after Monica hit the fan.
(however, while I was disgusted at that and he certainly did lie, which was an issue to address.. it must be said that sex is not a crime... nor is it a War Crime, conspiracy, or failure to respond in National Security and/or disaster events. Nor does sex kill innocent bystanders and victims)
I think it's true we do have to be prepared.. but the bottom line is we cannot do much about a virus..
They can be virulant and can mutate quickly..
anti-virals can help some in some cases..
but I still believe the 7 Billion allocated largely to pharmaceuticals and the media hype (with nothing solid to back it..).. and the fact that a vaccine will be relatively ineffective at best..
Yo LabRaticus -- do we agree?? I thought we only did that once every leap year if you had a few too many..
but then I read yout post further and I'm not sure..
anyway, yes... where are the Science guys on this??
The money and the hype is well over the top of appropriate preparedness, and this admin has at the very least shown they are in need of scrutiny in their actions. They also need a distraction. Approval rating is down ro 35%.. not that polls make sence..but they are dropping precipitously.
I believe they are doing with the bird flu a milder version of the same thing they did with 911.
Milk it for all they can.. with no solid justification of the actions in 'responce'..or info.
and put too much money and efforts in the wrong place to deal with it. Pharma cronies.........
meanwhile ignoring existing threats, which is the biggest tradgedy in this.
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Would you ladies consider PBS media hype?? Cuz there was a special about bird flu on that this morning...
heirwlove...my comment about the differences of men and woman is straight out of the book "men are from mars woman from venus" I suggest you read it and not call me a sexist... let's see now...I've been called pathetic,insane,a trouble maker,someone who vomits on folks, a covert insulter, someone who has only been here a little over a year(I've been here at least three),someone who does'nt even have lyme disease and is just too lazy to find a job, and now a sexist.......all this would have killed a lesser man. Gee ladies ya got anymore false accusations and insults ya want to throw my way? [email protected]
I have tried to respect this venue and have kept my comments objective...it's you folks that take it personally and accuse me and others of attacking you personally...when it's just your opinions we disagree with...that is why I merely suggested that it was a man/woman kind of thing...cuz most men and women will readily admit that we don't think alike nor do we always understand where the other gender is comming from.
Even some of you who accuse others of "attacking" them have got to admit I have been attacked and insulted... There's my email if you would like to do more...just keep it off this venue.......zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I'm not saying nothing should be done.. just questioning the logic, motivation, real information and efficacy of what is being done.
Here is a piece posted on a Lymeblog (this is not the LLMD, btw) :
Bird flu-threat or hoax? Dr. Horowitz believes the current avian flu scare is highly suspicious
"The track record on vaccines is not encouraging. Many have led to horrific results. Remember swine flu vaccine? Then there was polio vaccine, smallpox vaccine, anthrax vaccine, hepatitis B vaccine and, more recently, Lyme disease vaccine that crippled close to 750,000 people within months after it was released and before its recall by the FDA. "
What is the truth behind the avian flu, and its real threat to public health?
Dr. Leonard Horowitz is an internationally known expert in the fields of public health, behavioral science, emerging diseases, and bioterrorism. His testimony before the Government Reform Committee of the U.S. Congress brought the hearing to a screeching halt. He forced the committee to acknowledge that a secret report showed a link between mercury [Thimerosal], found in many vaccines, and the spiraling rate of autism and behavioral disorders in American children.
Dr. Horowitz. believes the current avian flu scare is highly suspicious. In a recent article, he said: "If avian flu becomes more than a threatened pandemic, it will have done so by political and economic design. This thesis is supported by current massive media misrepresentations, profiteering on risky and valueless vaccines, gross neglect of data evidencing earlier similar man-made plagues including SARS, West Nile virus, AIDS and more; continuance of genetic studies breeding more mutant flu viruses likely to outbreak, inside trading scandals involving pandemic-savvy White House and drug industry officials, curious immunity of these pharmaceutical entities over the past century to law enforcement and mainstream media scrutiny, and published official depopulation objectives."
Dr. Horowitz. has dubbed what he calls this "physician-assisted mass murder" as "iatrogenocide." The term is a combination of iatrogenesis [physician-caused illness] and genocide, meaning the mass killing or enslaving of people for reasons of economics, politics and/ or ideology.
He recalled the period in which SARS, [Severe Acute Respiratory Syndrome] first appeared. For the first time, Horowitz said, Canadian response to the alleged threat was directed by the U.N. and the World Health Organization. He noted these organizations are tied administratively and financially to the Rockefeller family, Carnegie Foundation, and leading drug makers here and abroad.
"The truth about plagues," said Horowitz, "includes the fact that no grand pandemic ever evolved divorced from major socio-political upheaval. 'Experts' had been predicting the arrival of a super-plague for decades. What was highly suspicious about the mysterious and terrifying arrival of SARS, however, was its timing."
It arrived with the launch of the "War on Terror" and the invasion of Iraq. This provided a good distraction from the fact that the Bush I administration had furnished Saddam Hussein with the majority of his deadly biological weapons, including anthrax and West Nile virus. "SARS, and the current avian flu fright," said Horowitz, "is sanctioned by military-medical-pharmaceutical-petrochemical industrialists likewise operating above the law in many documented instances."
Richard Nixon's National Security adviser and prot�g� of Nelson Rockefeller, Henry Kissinger, directed foreign policy while weighing Third World population reduction, which he viewed as "necessities" for the U.S., Britain, Germany and other allies.
Kissinger chose the option to have the CIA develop biological weapons, or so states the U.S. Congressional Record for 1975. These weapons included some organisms far deadlier than avian flu.
Horowitz said conflicts like the "War on AIDS," the "War on Drugs," and the "War on Terror," need sophisticated propaganda campaigns to generate fear to gain social acceptance and public support for the legislated programs. These psychological operations, experts say, best support the new "Revolution in Military Affairs" (RMA). RMA's capabilities include a form of slavery in which the globe's captive populations would not even know they are enslaved.
Ailments generated for "iatrogenocide" include the many autoimmune diseases and newer cancers that were almost non-existent 50 years ago, Dr. Horowitz said. He added, "This fact alone strongly suggests a genocidal socio-economic and political agenda."
Pointed questions about the avian flu do not seem to be advanced. For instance, has anyone asked how lethal, how transmissible, and how treatable is this strain? Did you know that avian flu has killed "about 65 people" in Southeast Asia in the past two years? Most of these victims had compromised immune systems, and all the deaths were in Asia in countries with dubious health services.
Other forms of flu kill more than 40,000 North Americans yearly, mostly among the elderly.
Earlier this month, USA Today reported more than 140 million birds have died or been destroyed in an effort to contain the virus, but the significant statement was "The current virus, known as H5N1, has not yet mutated to the point at which it can easily spread from person to person." In fact, Dr. Horowitz said, it is likely it has never spread from person to person except when being handled in a laboratory.
Despite that fact, the U.S. Senate has authorized a $3.9 billion package to obtain vaccines and antiviral medications, and the Bush administration is readying a request for an additional $6 billion to $10 billion," according to an article in Business Week.
No human vaccine exists, so why is the Senate eager to spend all that money for an avian flu vaccine? Avian flu has never spread from person to person, nor has it spread from birds to humans. To get a human vaccine specific for this virus, it is necessary to culture the avian virus in human cell cultures and then inject the result into monkeys and, eventually, humans. Then, these guinea pigs are watched to see if they develop avian flu.
That virus is being either produced now in labs financed by industrialists with huge profit-incentives to "accidentally" release the virus, or it is already prepared and awaiting release to take the maximum advantage of the present fear and future sales when the virus is released.
The track record on vaccines is not encouraging. Many have led to horrific results. Remember swine flu vaccine? Then there was polio vaccine, smallpox vaccine, anthrax vaccine, hepatitis B vaccine and, more recently, Lyme disease vaccine that crippled close to 750,000 people within months after it was released and before its recall by the FDA.
Dr. Horowitz said vaccines contain ingredients that can increase human disease and death. Growing scientific evidence, he said, suggests vaccines are chiefly responsible for spawning cases of autism and learning disorders, chronic fatigue, fibromyalgia, lupus, MS, ALS, rheumatoid arthritis, asthma, allergies, type 1 diabetes, and many other pandemics. Dr. Horowitz added: "Vaccines and other pharmaceutical industry inventions are literally killing or disabling millions with little effort on the part of government officials and their drug industry cohorts to arrest this scourge."
posted
So there is a complaint that the, uh, ...'far lefties'.... wait too long to deal with a threat, Thus, they don't throw money uselessly at it, not having properly considered (and, in many cases, of course, not having the faculties to consider, but that's another matter....) the best way to deal with the threat in question. Repugnantans and fascists, on the other hand, borrow trillions of dollars from the children of America to mount their high- profile military response that inevitably turns into a money-sucking, human life destroying, fiasco that has no end in sight. To be prepared for whatever the future may bring we must keep democracy alive. We must keep discussion vital, and stamp out secrecey. We must use our minds, not our military. To be really ready for new health crises, as well as deal with those we have been failing to deal with (Lyme is one example), we musn't squander our resources frivolously. The repugnantan party is THE squander-our-resources-frivolously party. We should abandon ALL support for such thugs. DaveS
Posts: 4567 | From ithaca, NY, usa | Registered: Nov 2000
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These ways damn the planet and our kid's future.. oil, polution, unjustified War..
it's all about monetary gains in the present for a choice few.
There is NO forsight or concern for our children's safety and welfare as they inherit what we leave (or take from) them.. for better or worse.
The trillions spent now will rest squarely on THEIR backs, as well as dealing with global Terror networks, nuclear threats revitalized, a polluted planet, depleated natural resources, decrepid healthcare and social system.. global warming..
The interests in Washington being pushed forth are short-sighted and self serving, coorperate serving. Rape the land, spend, spend, spend..and cut anything and everything to support that regardless of the welfare of Americans now and in the future. About as corrupt as it gets.
Right now there is a bill up to protest that will strip social services .. so many things -- it's very hard to keep up with them!
The dive we have taken since the corrupt election in 2000 is mind blowing. The stuff revolutions are made of.
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
OK...
So can you'all give a solution?
What is your plan, party, or whatever to fix all the suffering etc...???
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
Expose the corruption, financial ties, and agendas.. divorce coorperate interests from government and reform the system. Checks and balances. Separate church from State..
No president shall betrothed to big business , such as oil, pharmaceuticals, insurance, ect.. nor tied to religious political interests.
Revamp the media system.. ALL media outlets should not be owned and run by SIX major coorperations..
Democracy is impossible when information is controlled, filtered, or rationed.. independant journalism is near dead.. this is stifling Democracy. If people are not informed, it is impossible to act as 'We the People' .. it becomes more like.. 'We the Sheep-le'
Secret governing should not be tolerated. This admin in particular has very few open press conferances, have controlled who is there and what questions can be asked.. and much of congress openly complain that THEY often don't know what the heck is going on..
Oh...and I'd uphold the Constitution.
Not only in War, but in a long list of other issues.. just doing that would reform much of what has happened in the past five years.
I would also require that ANY legislation taking us backward environmentally (or otherwise, social, school, health) be brought to open forum.. and the public well informed and given a voice in anything to do with our common -- air, water, and atmosphere and other major welfare issues. Inform us so we can write our congressmen. An unbelievable amount of major changes have been slipped through in the textx of OTHER legislations.. to avoid an 'open forum'.. the public finds out later..
Going to War should be decided upon by Congress, and in dealing with the United Nations and allies.
Even Pop Bush did that in Kuwait..GWB fueled by Cheney, Wolfowitz and the rest of the clan are running the show...it should never have been allowed that this admin took it upon THEMSELVES to act unilaterally without grounds or plans. Of course, then they would have had to justify it with FACTS and could not have goten away with thr dupe of the century.
Anytime ANY administration sends our kids off to War, they should be held accountable for solid information and planning.. never allowed to do this unilaterally.. and NEVER to conspire to go to War before bringing it to Congress..
Oh, ya.. these bozos did that too.. that's a big break in Constititional law right there..the one they will get formally nailed on eventually.
Just a few random thoughts..
Mo
-------------------- life shrinks and expands in proportion to one's courage -- anais nin Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
I could be wrong...but you said this was not about dems and repubs or USA...
How come you still bash this administration? If it were another admin would you be as critical?
The things you mentioned are probably shared by any regular American...
I believe checks and balances are already in place... Seperation of church and state is already in place... Going to war is already a decision of congress...
I am sure one could read any of the legistation if one desires to do so prior to voting...besides we elect officials to do that for us...don't we??
The media is bought and paid for...capitalism is the great american way of life...the individual has to make the decision as to whether an individual is to be led as sheep or not...NO?
Lofty goals...
What do you personally plan on doing about this reform?
The poor folks in France seem to be doing something...kinda reminds me of the Watts riots of the late sixties....and I know noone likes vilence... You made metion or "the things that revolutions are born from" did you not?
Lead on...what do you propose we the people do?
Just what way should we the people go? In your opinion...What should we do? What are you doing that we can back you on?
[ 09. November 2005, 08:31 AM: Message edited by: lymie tony z ]
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
I could be wrong...but you said this was not about dems and repubs or USA...
How come you still bash this administration? If it were another admin would you be as critical?
Absolutely I would, it is not 'bashing' an administration to hold them accountable for specific actions and policies and their effect.
It's not 'bashing' to expect crimes be investigated no matter if it's a senior official, the VP, or even the Presidant for that matter. Is accountablity not a requirement in today's government? Do you consider these things 'unfair'? Were talking about the White House, here for goodness sake. I am joined by a good deal of former Bush supporters both private and political figures
I believe checks and balances are already in place...
appahrently not
Seperation of church and state is already in place...
not exactly
Going to war is already a decision of congress...
in the case of Iraq, it was not
I am sure one could read any of the legistation if one desires to do so prior to voting...besides we elect officials to do that for us...don't we??
not if we are not aware of the nature of the 'legislations'.. which are disguised as as 'clauses' regarding BIG issues .. have been slipped in..especially ones that have been rejected historically in Congress, many of which SHOULD have an open floor in Congress, not small things...should be treated seperately, but this admin sneaks in the ones that they know have a good chance of being voted down. (like drilling in ANWR being passed as part of an energy budget bill, just as one example) The public cannot know to write if not made aware of legislations in the traditional way.. yes, then they would need to educate themselves and could speak up if necessary.. however the public is not likely to read through all pending legislations in order to 'catch' claused issues. (many if these have been issues folks would have had some concern over, had they known)
.and if the public relies on their Congresmen to do that, then they are not exercizing Democracy. Tho, the stuff is flying through in recent years..covertly..which makes things very difficult to keep up with, this shouldn't be happening. In addition, Congress is in constant 'deal-making' mode: 'you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours' --
Thet are ALL guilty of that, and often are not operating solely in constituent welfare or interests. But lots of contact from constituents can have an impact. It has, finally..on some counts.
The media is bought and paid for...capitalism is the great american way of life...the individual has to make the decision as to whether an individual is to be led as sheep or not...NO?
Well, tes...anyone that chooses to read from multiple sources (mainly on the web, or public media sources).. can have a good grasp on what is going on in general. However, most Americans look to their evening news ro see what's happening.. and the point is, how can they make a decision not to be 'led' if they do not have any information before them that raises question on issues? and no, it has not always been like this..regulations in this area were lifted in the recent past, and with it independant journalizm had died. The News is very different these days
Lofty goals...
I see them as essential changes
What do you personally plan on doing about this reform?
The poor folks in France seem to be doing something...kinda reminds me of the Watts riots of the late sixties....and I know noone likes vilence... You made metion or "the things that revolutions are born from" did you not?
Lead on...what do you propose we the people do?
Just what way should we the people go? In your opinion...What should we do? What are you doing that we can back you on?
That's an awful lot of responsibility you put on me there, bub..
I'm not going to respond to anymore taunting.
I think we all have a responsibiliy to do what we can as individuals and as a group not tolerate corruption and lies of this magnetude in governmet.
Like I said, at least pointed investigations on several fronts have been accelerated of late. Did you catch that press conferance yesterday? No questions would be answered, and McLellan actually pulled the 'you are un-American for asking these questions' retort with the press core. Unreal.. I know the guy is under allot of pressure, but if that is going to be the White House stance on questions like that (the question was regarding Bush's statement of 'We don't do torture' and the press core asked why then Cheney has gone to the Pentagaon for exemptions in certain instances where torture was used.. Bush said 'We don't' -- whilst Cheney is asking for exemptions..legitimate to ask why.. and he would NOT answer it, at all.. and called then unAmerican for insisting on an answer. Sound familiar? I would expect it from Rush -- But at this level, the press secretary to the White House has never stooped that low before.. This is just one example related to all the 'stuff')
I hope all of the recent investigations are attended to adequately by those involved, and Congress.
Otherwise, read..find out what's happening, and decide whether Facism is something you want in American government.
[ 09. November 2005, 04:17 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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quote:Originally posted by lymie tony z: [QB] I could be wrong...but you said this was not about dems and repubs or USA...
How come you still bash this administration? If it were another admin would you be as critical?
--Even more so! One tends to have sympathy for nush-- he clearly has "lyme- brain", or maybe the disability is the result, as some have suggested, of alcoholism. I've even hear people say about dubya, "he's not much of a speaker.., but, you know, that makes him seem more like one of us...". One tends to be much harder on presidents who "know better". The thing that we need to be more cognizant of is, though, that bush is NOT running the show. His magnetism for a remarkably large percentage of amerikans has made him a perfect "tool" for numerous real crooks and despots to USE! To be sufficiently critical of this administration one MUST keep this in mind, but we tend not to do so. bush himself is a very small part of the "bush administration", I suspect. DaveS
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Gee, I just heard this morning that the bill for drilling in ANWAR was voted down...
Ya hoo!
Also there's bird flu in fowl in Kuwait...bummer...
Hope the troops don't bring it home like in 1918......
I did'nt expect you to actually have a plan...other than complaining and calling our nation "facists"....oh well...
It figures
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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The force behind the War and other coorperate interests running the country is really on Cheney, Wolfowitz, Abrams, Rumsfeld, Rove and Libby.
They are following an agenda they all publicly endorsed through the nineties. Bush is a front man.
The first time in 130 years we have a White House official indicted, and the VP's office involved in some very disturbing and felonious 'activities' that threaten National Security..not to mention the War handling.. surely if Congress follows through in their investigations as well, and the Dems don't sell out with political bartering.. this whole crew will be exposed, they have done too much not to be.
Really -- what more do these guys have to do??
Bush will only be held accountable for how much he was aware of, which I imagine is allot (in addition to the documented pre-War conspiring with Blair), but he is not the 'brains' in the operations by any means - more of an 'accomplice'..he appeases the 'croud' posing as a regular guy..he dispells the lies to middle America -- and says 'Freedom and Peace' and 'evil-doers' allot. During the campaign debates you could actually see the strings I swear that lump on his back was a device which fed prompts from Rove in his secret jet circling above ..
Seriously, Bush is also there to placate the religious right. Big mistake pissing them off with Meiers (they couldn't bank on Roe overturn with her) But they are lovin' him again with the Olito nomination.. as they have their own independant agenda.
Pro-life sites are openly talking of expectations that this Court (if Olito is on board and with Roberts) will overturn Roe v Wade, and ban gay marriage.
Meanwhile...in Iraq................... Things aren't very 'pro-life' over there.
Mo
[ 10. November 2005, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
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posted
Hey, when i see Big Bird go "down for the count" on tv then i'll worry. watching those public tv ads, that dam bird has been all over the world, including the moon! ....bound to bring somethin' back! Posts: 2708 | Registered: Feb 2005
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
I thought this was a topic about asian bird flu...
hmmm...
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
z-man, you went through all this just to remember what the topic was? That is really funny.
Haven't been around here lately (which is good, means I'm feeling good). But even feeling much better than a few or even one month ago, I had a hard time trying to read this entire thread.
Cut to chase, short, sweet, "keep it simple stupid" does it for me
and I'm a woman
-------------------- Lymester Posts: 519 | From CT | Registered: Jun 2004
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lymie tony z
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Member # 5130
posted
Well ya know it's good ole MO who is always harping on staying on topic...
I do believe it's a bit of the pot calling the kettle black...
how's that for short and sweet lymester!!
Everything seems to have some sort of alternative political agenda...holy conspiracies batman!!!.....
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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