Topic: Pentagon to review possible database misuse
LabRat
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posted
Boy! It's hard to get all the way through one of your post. OK, I'll get some drain-o next time I'm at the store.
The founding Fathers, hmmm! I got a good one for you. Ever see a law library? How did all those books come from one sheet of paper? At least one of the framers refused to believe that a rock could fall from the sky! What has remained constant since they sat down and wrote the constitution? Only thing that comes to mind is the bayonet!
Ohhh, I see! This is why the big fight over supreme court justices. These guys can look at the constitution and see that the founding fathers wanted everyone to have socialized medicine and a mar-sadies Benz! The shortest distance between two points is a line with the least amount of curve in it! So if the country is here and you want to take it over there and you know the people will never go along with it going through congress, and then you let the Supreme Court find the change constitutional. Pretty savvy no!
If the founding fathers were alive today they wouldn't last ten minutes, what with jaywalking, littering and no smoking laws! I'm not supporting change, I don't like change, if you do, don't leave your car keys in the same place twice!
Now what about those rules the terrorist have to follow.
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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quote:Originally posted by lymedad: [QB] tequeslady,
[QUOTE]Since you mention the WAR ON TERROR... I might have missed it somewhere... did Congress ever declare War?
You can throw up a wall of semantics if you wish, but yes Congress did declare war on terror:
Posts: 856 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Actually, I think they would have done just fine. They would have had the guts to not allow the crap to happen that we have so willingly accepted. Do you believe for one minute that they would have accepted the Patriot Act?
By the way, I think we have WAY too many laws.
quote:Originally posted by LabRat: If the founding fathers were alive today they wouldn't last ten minutes, what with jaywalking, littering and no smoking laws! I'm not supporting change, I don't like change, if you do, don't leave your car keys in the same place twice!
Now what about those rules the terrorist have to follow.
posted
So, what's the plan, LabRat? Take over the entire world?
quote:Originally posted by LabRat: Sooo, ya figure Iran will mature into a civilized society and will act more responsible once they have some nukes? I don't believe I agree with that.
LabRat
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posted
I don't think that is true. Different time, different men, different weapons. This isn't ment as a reflection on them, we couldn't fend for ourselves either! They will always be great, right time, right place, right men and they had some luck!
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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LabRat
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That would be a good topic for a fireside chat. First off, I'm not Mo. I don't know what's going on right this minute. The goal is to defeat terrorism and those that support and finance it and allowed it to come about. How we get there, and this is just my thoughts, is any way we can by any means we can and as soon as we can, however long that takes.
The riots that are taking place were sparked by a cartoon character of Mohammad saying ``stop the jihad, we're out of virgins''! I use to think more of muslins before I knew anything about them!
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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lymie tony z
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Just a thought which is not on topic but relevent to muslims behavior...
If the majority of muslims condemn the behavior of the extremists and remark that it is not in line with the muslim faith...
Why don't the majority of muslims police their religion? Why don't they stop harboring the extremists?
Why does'nt the main muslim make it a religious crime to keep acting the way the extremists are acting and declare a jihad against this behavior?
Then the rest of the world could live in peace!
I suspect the muslim majority is talking out of both sides of it's collective mouth.
In reference to the U.S. taking over the world... It would never happen...but something like it should happen.... America is'nt perfect but it's a dang site better than ANYWHERE else I've ever been.
zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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LabRat
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Yes Tony, that question has been ask, the answer has always been too little, too late!
Hey Tony, have you seen a rule book for the terrorist? I think Mo's looking for one. The Democrats haven't come up with one, leastwise no one has mentioned it. I'm beginning to think we're the only ones fighting with a gun in one hand and a rule book in the other! Hmmm! Haven't given it much thought but seems like something a terrorist or a leftist would come up with! Anybody seen one?
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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quote:"Once war is forced upon us, there is no alternative than to apply all available means to bring it to a swift end; in war, there can be no substitute for victory."
General Douglas MacArthur
I'm sure that every president in office during a major war has had detractors. I imagine that FDR, Harry Truman, etc. all had their political counterparts criticize their policies and actions during their war.
However, the venom of those who oppose George Bush is really remarkable. To suggest that George Bush is more of a threat to our way of life than our enemy is really astounding.
I wish someone would publish the names, addresses and phone numbers of those American citizens who have had their civil liberties stolen by George Bush and his "cronies". I'd really like to talk to them personally.
Our enemy is currently showing its true character on television every night. Those folks we see throughout the world burning our flag, along with the flags of Israel and Denmark, are the people we are at war with, not our president.
[ 08. February 2006, 11:54 PM: Message edited by: lymedad ]
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Do "the guys" agree that President Hillary Clinton should be able to disregard all laws and render the judiciary and congress irrelevant if she hoodwinks congress into declaring hostilities against a foreign entity? Actually, I kind of like it.
There is a political bumper sticker that is being used by both Democrats and Republicans:
"RUN HILLARY RUN"
Its placed on the back bumper of Democrat's cars and on the front bumper of Republican's cars.
(I just couldn't resist)
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
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I missed your comment in my initial reading of your post:
quote:NO one branch is supposed to have ultimate power over all the others.
I disagree.
The executive branch of our government is given the sole authority/responsibilty to conduct the foreign affairs of our nation. The president is the Commander-in-Chief of the military and the primary focus of the CINC is to wage war.
Although not a declared war, Congress did abdicate that necessity:
The Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002 (Public law 107-243, 116 Stat. 1497-1502)
The balance of powers has nothing to do with our need to win this war at any cost.
On September 12, 2001 the Iraqi government made the following statement:
"The attacks on the United States serves as a lesson for all tyrants and oppressors"
As for me, that statement alones stands as sufficient provocation for the war in Iraqi.
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
When I get a chance, I'll try to find a story or two about individuals.
The point is... you've given them the POSSIBILITY to trample your civil liberties. You're merely trusting that they won't. I don't think this is a wise move.
quote:Originally posted by lymedad: [QUOTE] [b] I wish someone would publish the names, addresses and phone numbers of those American citizens who have had their civil liberties stolen by George Bush and his "cronies". I'd really like to talk to them personally.
Noone but the President, Gonzales, and the heads of NSA know how many American citizens have been spyed on..noone else knows if it was five citizens or 50,000, or if this is a dragnet operation. ..and they are refusing to tell ANYONE else for purpose of oversight.
not having any oversight whatsoever is not OK.. further, if it was only suspected AlQaeda communications, as they claim and reporters wrongly echo.. (no proof of that).. if it was/is..then what's the problem with describing the programme to the secret FISA court as Spector urges along with several Republican collegues?
What of the President and Gonzales simply stating this is legal, yet not answering any questions to that effect?
This is well beyond the intended 'inherant powers' during 'wartime' and has pushed well past established statutes and proceedural guidelines.
The Congress and Judiciary branches, since 911, have given the Bush administration everything they have asked for by way of funding and revisions to legislation, ammendments, ect, ect ect all along the way. The excecutive branch kept this from them and never appealed for approval, which they may well have gotten, so long as the operation was deemed necessary.
The pure power play asserted by the White House here is way out of line. That's what has allot of moderate Republicans upset as well.
"The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many.... may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny." America must always maintain our constitution with the deepest vigilance. A determined effort is needed now to protect our most sacred liberties and to ensure that our Constitutional democracy will be preserved for our children and grandchildren."
- James Madison, Federalist Papers 47Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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LabRat
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Now MO, about these rules our enemies have to play by, your oddly silent on the subject. I get the picture of you holding on to one of America's sleeves to prevent a good solid punch being landed, all the while leaving an opening for a hook to come out of nowhere and land squarely on our chin. Can't you be more fair, give our government & soldiers a downhill playing field in this war. If you could just spend half your time and energy critiquing the action of our raghead opponents, maybe you wouldn't come off so anti-American! You don't seem to accomplish much, just shuffling papers and trying to dress a minnow up as a whale! (Aside from driving the rest of us nuts!)
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
LabRat, I would say to you... Do you think anyone American is perfect? Do you think they always have America's best interest in mind and always place it above their own self-interests?
If I believed that, I would agree with you. Thing is... I do not.
By the way, I think Mo pointing out where we are going against the very foundations of what this country was built on is VERY American and patriotic. It takes guts. It would be much easier to do what most people do... go along with the masses. Closing ones eyes to Constitutional infringements and just trusting those in power, after they have done this, to not abuse this power, is of course, much easier.
But, in my opinion, that's also how we're going to wake up one day with our Constitution gone and a World Government in power. I personally do not want that.
quote:Originally posted by LabRat: Now MO, about these rules our enemies have to play by, your oddly silent on the subject. I get the picture of you holding on to one of America's sleeves to prevent a good solid punch being landed, all the while leaving an opening for a hook to come out of nowhere and land squarely on our chin. Can't you be more fair, give our government & soldiers a downhill playing field in this war. If you could just spend half your time and energy critiquing the action of our raghead opponents, maybe you wouldn't come off so anti-American! You don't seem to accomplish much, just shuffling papers and trying to dress a minnow up as a whale! (Aside from driving the rest of us nuts!)
posted
Osama was NOT in Iraq!! I too think that we should rip his head off. However, doing that has NOTHING to do with our invasion of Iraq.
You're doing the same thing that the media and the Bush administration did when we first invaded Iraq. Equating the two.
quote:Originally posted by lymie tony z: NO Teuqes, It is not because you don't agree with me that I question your and others patriotism.
The fact that this administration made mistakes and got us in this war is not the issue anymore...
we're there...and no amount of belly acheing is gonna change that. What it does do is undermine the efforts of the military. This is why I question your patriotism.
The constant barrage of mute points about the administration is exactly what Osama and the other extremists are counting on...
When one is engaged in war one must take care of that first....then deal with the why's and wherefore's after it is won...not durring.
Ya get it now?.......I can't make it any plainer than that for ya'll......zman
LabRat
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posted
Is that the best you can do MO. 3-4 small half hearted sentences and even while your doing that, you find a way to smear and insult America!
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Not agreeing with what the administration is doing, does NOT equate with smearing America.
What would it take for you to say ENOUGH... I don't like how our government is twisting the Constitution and we need to do something about it? What would have to happen?
I'm just interested in what your litmus test is?
quote:Originally posted by LabRat: Is that the best you can do MO. 3-4 small half hearted sentences and even while your doing that, you find a way to smear and insult America!
quote:Do you think anyone American is perfect? Do you think they always have America's best interest in mind and always place it above their own self-interests?
I know your question wasn't addressed to me, but I didn't think you'd mind if I commented anyway.
I feel like I need to look beyond the imperfections of my country in these times. On boards like these and in other forums, there are so many people running our leadership into the ground, comparing our president to Adolf Hitler, making assinine comments like:
quote:If there was a 'Terrorists' rule book, I would expect the United States government and military commanders to follow it as well.
quote:However, I am working on a "Plan B." Jews with their eyes on the horizon got the hell out of Germany before 1933. I am holding that lesson close to my heart.
This type of rhetoric demands rebuttal. We do not have a perfect society or a perfect government. However, I've lived in other countries governed by other than democratic leaders and although we're not perfect, we're heads and shoulders above anything else I've seen.
Bottom-line, it's hard for me personally to find much fault with our elected leaders when I feel so compelled to protect them against such hatred.
George Bush is a human and as such is imperfect. I believe he is doing what he feels is the best for America. He was elected to his position on two occasions (we can argue the way the elections were handled another time)and I believe we owe him the opportunity to win this war, regardless of the cost.
We are at war. My son is fighting in that war. Whatever our president and congressional leaders need to do to protect him and his comrades is okay by me.
I'll worry about whether my phone is tapped when the war is won.
I'll worry about whether George Bush had the right to order surveillance against suspected terrorists without a warrant when my son is home victorious.
I'll worry about whether the executive branch of our government gained too much power after the Islamic radicals are in their heaven surrounded by their own personal 40 virgins.
Until we win this thing, I'll support whoever is in office, Republican or Democrat. It's not about politics, it's about victory. We can't afford to lose, our way of life is at stake.
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I don't agree with you on the war or George Bush, LymeDad. But, if my son was there, I'd probably think the same way as you. I understand. I hope he's home soon.
Understand that I love this country. It worries me that if we continue on the path we're on (and it started long before Bush), we won't recognize our country before very long.
Since I used to be a Republican (and I'm most definitely NOT a Democrat), I feel as if I should be especially vigilant when one is in office. I've noticed far too often that Republicans tend to fall asleep when one of their own is President.
If Clinton would have proposed, or done, half the stuff that Bush has done, we would have wanted his head on a platter.
Posts: 856 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Posts: 856 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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lymie tony z
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Wrong again teuqes,
I'm not equating anything.
I just agree with lymedad. We've both been in other countries and in war.
Our perspective is much different than those who have not. We actually know,and have experienced firsthand, what all the negative, name calling, attacks on our gov., officials durring a time of war can do to those in combat.
NONE of it is good.
We're not blind or dupes or sheep laying down our civil liberties...we're simply backing our troops by showing solidarity...
Which we think is more important at this time.
We're not fearful or paranoid or outraged cuz we've lived through a lot of things you and mo and probably davey have not experienced. And we survived.
However we know what it's like to be fighting a war and having folks at home protest and undermine our reasons for being their.
We have had to deal with unfair treatment all our lives for having been their. I personally believe that I have been repeatedly discriminated against because I chose to enlist long ago. It never ends. It still happens in some circles...the circles that have the righteous college grads from that era in charge. Whatever.... I deal with it.
If you used to be a rep and are not a dem...then where may I ask is your comitment? Anywhere?
Yeah yeah I know...a concerned american...
Why are'nt you in politics? Why are'nt you fighting somewhere instead of bellyacheing?
The terrorists AKA anything under that category don't have RULES....that's the point....
We are fighting by their rules....none...and if you think we can defeat them any other way...you and your buddies are saddly mistaken....zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by lymie tony z: "Wrong again teuqes,"
Actually, it's teques, not teuqes.
"I'm not equating anything."
---When you talk about Osama and the war in Iraq in the same breath, it sure sounds like it.
"I just agree with lymedad. We've both been in other countries and in war."
"Our perspective is much different than those who have not. We actually know,and have experienced firsthand, what all the negative, name calling, attacks on our gov., officials durring a time of war can do to those in combat.
NONE of it is good."
"We're not blind or dupes or sheep laying down our civil liberties...we're simply backing our troops by showing solidarity..."
---There's a difference between backing the troops and agreeing with the administration.
"Which we think is more important at this time."
"We're not fearful or paranoid or outraged cuz we've lived through a lot of things you and mo and probably davey have not experienced. And we survived."
"However we know what it's like to be fighting a war and having folks at home protest and undermine our reasons for being their."
"We have had to deal with unfair treatment all our lives for having been their. I personally believe that I have been repeatedly discriminated against because I chose to enlist long ago. It never ends. It still happens in some circles...the circles that have the righteous college grads from that era in charge. Whatever.... I deal with it."
---I am truly sorry if you have been treated badly for having served in the military. I think that is disgusting. I appreciate the fact that you did serve. I know you did it because you loved this country.
---That does not mean that I have participated in the discrimination you experienced. You can't group everyone together. Before Lyme, I used to hire quite a few retired military folks.
"If you used to be a rep and are not a dem...then where may I ask is your comitment? Anywhere?"
---Just because someone thinks that both major parties have gone south, does not mean they don't have strong beliefs. There are other parties, you know. I vote for the individual. I don't just listen to their sound bites. I check their voting records, etc. I look to see if they put their votes where their rhetoric is.
---I don't care WHAT party someone is in. If they are strong Constitutionalists and their actions back up their patriotism, they will likely get my vote. I have voted for several Libertarians. I did vote for Reagan. I was in college at the time. I remember how excited I was the first time he won. I was jumping up and down. I always liked how he talked, but in the end, I think he was a puppet. In my opinion, he's still one of the best we've had for awhile, but he had a lot to improve on.
---If you really want to know of someone I support, then check out Ron Paul.
---I rarely ever disagree with this guy. He's true blue and very much a Constitutionalist. He hasn't sold out.
"Yeah yeah I know...a concerned american..."
"Why are'nt you in politics? Why are'nt you fighting somewhere instead of bellyacheing?"
---How do you know I don't participate? What do you mean by fighting? I fight the way I can at the present, given my illness.
"The terrorists AKA anything under that category don't have RULES....that's the point....
We are fighting by their rules....none...and if you think we can defeat them any other way...you and your buddies are saddly mistaken....zman "
---Tony, I have said several times that I think we should rip Osama and his henchmen's heads off. I just don't see how overthrowing Iraq equates to avenging 9-11. I think we were lied to. I don't think Bush, et al. is operating in America's best interests. Their own, maybe, or maybe an unseen agenda to further us closer to a World government. They have done very well at that.
---It has happened in country after country in history. Create an emergency, then come in and rescue the populace. The people are so scared, that they are willing to have government "save" them by allowing all kinds of new laws that allow for infringement of their freedom. I believe that is happening now and quite frankly, it happened with Clinton too.
---I know you love America. I understand what you are saying about supporting the troops and believe me, I do. I am grateful that they are willing to put their lives on the line to protect us.
---You seem to agree with everything that has been happening in this administration. Or, possibly, are you just getting stubborn because you're taking it that people are playing politics here... democrats vs. republicans?
---I hear you that you think that Americans need to support Bush now while we're engaged in the conflict. I understand and wish it were that easy. What goes through my head is ... we're now looking like we're going to do the same thing in Iran. Who knows what country after that?
---At what point should we question the motives here? Never? When we're through invading nations? By the looks of it, that will never come to an end. If we keep waiting on the sidelines, it is my belief we will not have a country that looks anything like the America we love. I'm sorry, I will not stand silently by and let that happen. War, or no war.
---P.S. I care about the troops too. I don't want them sent anywhere to fight and die for a cause that isn't about protecting America.
quote:Originally posted by lymie tony z: "Just a thought which is not on topic but relevent to muslims behavior..."
"If the majority of muslims condemn the behavior of the extremists and remark that it is not in line with the muslim faith..."
"Why don't the majority of muslims police their religion? Why don't they stop harboring the extremists?"
--- They probably wonder the same thing about us policing what our government is doing.
"Why does'nt the main muslim make it a religious crime to keep acting the way the extremists are acting and declare a jihad against this behavior?"
--- Why aren't Americans calling Bush and his administration to task over their lies and an invasion of a sovereign nation that had nothing to do with avenging 9-11.
"Then the rest of the world could live in peace!"
"I suspect the muslim majority is talking out of both sides of it's collective mouth."
---As is America. We say we want peace, while we invade and overthrow sovereign nations.
"In reference to the U.S. taking over the world... It would never happen..."
--- Why is that?
"but something like it should happen...."
---Ever read some of the papers by our Founding Fathers? If not, I suggest you do.
"America is'nt perfect but it's a dang site better than ANYWHERE else I've ever been."
---We were told to be "ever vigilant", or we'd lose what our Founders gave us. There's a reason why America is a better place to live than other countries. I want it to stay that way. I do not think we are on that path.
zman [/QB]
[ 10. February 2006, 11:00 PM: Message edited by: tequeslady ]
Posts: 856 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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Apologies, I'm going to cut your last post up to respond.. something I try not to do, because I dislike it when mine are responded to in this manner, as it sometimes takes ideas out of context.
Your post is a few behind the reply tho - so that's why...
Lymedad said:
quote:Bottom-line, it's hard for me personally to find much fault with our elected leaders when I feel so compelled to protect them against such hatred.
I have to clarify.. labeling the concerns and information raised as hatred is misleading and dismissive.
To be clear -- these points are not 'venom' or 'hatred', this has been put out there as a response for years, and is still being put out on Faux News as a response to the mountain of concerns regarding our administrators.
I cannot understand the comment as anything other than deflection.
We are talking about elected, acting officials and high administrators of the United States of America.
These people have the highest positions in our land, and a responsibility and accountability that come with them.
Responsibility and accountability of our government is at the core of American values and tradition.
Valid issues raised regarding their conduct and performance, therefore, to my mind.. cannot be rightfully labeled as 'hatred'. And certainly ---- the number and significance of the issues raised over the past few years, compounded astonishingly over the past few weeks and months ---- are worthy of serious consideration if you go by American standards as we kave known them to be since the birth of our nation.
These issues are also not Partison for me, and they should not be for anyone. We are talking about our acting government.
quote:George Bush is a human and as such is imperfect.
Clearly --- but that is not his crime, much more than that has been documented already.. by way of President lying on numerous occasions to Congress, the public, and the World.
A newly retired CIA agent today stated that the administration knew well ahead of time that Saddam was YEARS away from WMD capability, nuclear capability.. and that they were fully briefed on the very real threat of insurgency..we were told this was 'unforseen'.
Today, we have lies about Katrrina (was told the levy's would break days ahead, was told they had broken at the time they broke, they were told months and years ahead of the very real threat..we were told it was 'unforseen') and Abromoff (has socialized with him on the Crawford ranch and is in over a dozen photos - conversations about the kids.., as Abromoff reports..he has intimate ties through Cheney, other intimate business connections - ect, ect...yet Bush says he doesn't know the guy)
911, and on and on -- we have on the table, as well as lies regarding CIA intelligence, and the NSA programme we have on the table as well. There have been more lies and contraditions between Bush, Cheney, and Gonzales than I can keep up with.
This week - Bush 'declassified' the info that an LA building who's name he did not even get right.. was (as he made it sound) under imminent threat bu Al Qaeda - (fact is ..they unraveled this over time well before the threat was imminent, thank God) ..
and we were told this week the news just as the NSA thing is making them nervous.. just as they have the Patriot Act up for review.. yet this admin takes something as solemn as that, that happended in '01, that has nothing to do with wire-tapping (they got the info through other means)
-- and while making the case that 'leakers' are 'traitors' ...they leak this info at this moment and clearly exploit it for polotical gain.. more as a political life-raft in my view at this time.
The Libby case has uncovered (by his testimony)that his 'supervisors' ..who are Cheney and Bush .. AUTHORIZED the outing of a CIA agent for revenge and to silence her husband during the time in which they KNOWINGLY misled this nation into WAR by claiming Saddam bought uranium from Niger.
All of these things hold varying levels of shock and awe.. and are dispicable at varying levels as well.
The most horrifying being lying about the core elements surounding Iraq and exploiting 911. Thousands upon thousands have died or been crippled for life in various ways as a result of these LIES. You may agree with the idea or ideals, but that does not excuse nor change the President and the administration's actions.
It is not so much about ideological differences regarding opinions on the Iraq War, as it is about an administration who lies and manipulates.
I am both dismayed and outraged at this administration's continued exploitation of 911. This is a form of blasphomy as far as I and the souls lost that day and their families are concerned.
(note: none of the above mentions domestic abominations related to coorperate gains that have had tremendously negative impact on children, the poor, the disabled, healthcare, and the environment that have been devastating.. ie: inclusive but certainly not exclusive -- just the most recent event.. is the slashing of 40 BILLION to medicaid, medicare and other programs impacting the most needy and disabled, such as Lyme patients and children most ill and impoverished.. while within days approving a 70 BILLIONdollar tax cot for the WEALTHY)
Even the 'little things' are devastating to our society. Folks need to WAKE UP. Our kids will pay for all of these things mentioned in profound ways.
Our kids here, and the nation's kids 'over there'.
quote:I believe he is doing what he feels is the best for America.
I no longer believe that.
quote:He was elected to his position on two occasions (we can argue the way the elections were handled another time)and I believe we owe him the opportunity to win this war, regardless of the cost.
No!! These are costs that are much too great, and there is no direction or solution for this War!
quote:We are at war. My son is fighting in that war. Whatever our president and congressional leaders need to do to protect him and his comrades is okay by me.
I hold very deep reverence and concern for our military everyday.
I cry on a regular basis regarding this. I consider this administration a far greater danger to our troops than the War on Terror at this time.
I also pray you and your family fare as well as possible through it all, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart for your intent and your service. That service is not what is in question.
I too FULLY expect the administration to do all they can to protect them.
quote:I'll worry about whether my phone is tapped when the war is won.
I want to clarify something else -- Americans and Congress concerned about this programme are not concerned with their own privacy and WANT all actions against the terrorists who threaten the nation now TAKEN, effectively.
-- they are concerned with an adminisration operating as tho they are above the Law, and refusing to offer info in even the most approproiate and safe venues.. only putting forth as Attorney General who is acting as tho he is the President's personal attorney.
This act begs the question as to how many other illegal programmes exist, as this happens to be one that the whistle was blown on. Despite the propaganda..this was not a threat to National Security to expose it (as tho the terorists did not know we used wire-taps!).. this was a threat to the administration, and they are in rare form dancing around this one and that is frightening.
The media...Rove threatening his own party with lack of campaign support to keep quiet..(as reported in a conservative publication)
The concern is operating ILLEGALLY, brazenly.. with no clear reason as to WHY... other than putting the threat of Terror out there as a smoke screen.
I'll remind you, this is America.. we have to protect HER. I am done being bullied with the rhetoric of fear. Wartime and fear have been an age-old backdrop for abuse.
If the programme is legit..it should have SOME form of oversight, and that oversight could have been ammended years ago.
Hope that is clearer..and I hope they disclose it to the proper oversight agency. They have not as of yet.
quote:I'll worry about whether the executive branch of our government gained too much power after the Islamic radicals are in their heaven surrounded by their own personal 40 virgins.
If we wait till then, if we let it all go.. what right do we have to be invading countries and 'reforming' them into a democracy as tho we are a shinimg example.. if democracy is lost at home?
That is how the Muslim World and much of the rest of the World view us already.. as a very poor example. As Imperialists using democracy as a facade. ..just read from international authors, historians, journalists, experts..and you can see that clearly. This War agaisnst terror must be won politically, it cannot be won militarily.. it is impotant to realize that for the sake of the troops and for the sake of National and World Security.
In addition, how can we win this 'War' when they view us this way?
quote:Until we win this thing, I'll support whoever is in office, Republican or Democrat.
I disagree, we cannot afford that under the circumstances!!
Your next sentance qualifies my opinion in that:
quote:It's not about politics, it's about victory. We can't afford to lose, our way of life is at stake.
AGREED!!
The other thing that frightens me..is when I tune into Faux News.. they have taken most of these issues and either reported completely wrong info, or spun it like a top.
I am shocked and dismayed at the lengths they have gone to manipulate a Middle American audience. I consider the levels of manupulatiin from actual reporting to constant inuendos, to inciting rage against all other views -- criminal levels of propaganda. They are comlicit.
What is shocking is they are largely the only one's still mutilating the news to this extent.
others are not much better... but I see Fox as doing frightening things with their audience that are more evident than ever these days.
People MUST in this day look to a range of sources. It is shocking how separated the media has become, and how the White House and Fox have closed in to claim FOX is the only network not 'attacking' the President... that the Presodent is under 'seige' by the media.. yet it is fact the majority of media outlets are coorperate owned and to an extent beholden to the republican party in charge. They have for years been leaning Right. STILL ARE, considereing reality.. Bit now there is so much happening that most (except Fox) are reporting SOME of it.
Step back and think about all that for just a second............... if you choose a range of sources still available you would see.
We cannot possibly have a functioning Democracy without an INFORMED public.
As for American compliance with a commitment not to perpetrate terrorist acts.. yes, I belive that is a requirement to fighting terrror -- and it will take an owning up to the factual terrorist acts perpetrated by our OWN government and those we have supported who have committed those acts over decades in order to hope to truly attain peace.
A list I will post another time, and all are SOLELY at the fault of the higher administrators, to be clear.
Just one recent/real time act is the use of depleated uranium in Iraq and the Midle East and Asia both now and in the Gulf War. It is pure poison causing horrific conditions, totally against the Geneva Convention.. an obscene WMD -- and devistating the health of our troops, the land for **generations**, and the children of these nations.
Another one of those things they don't tell folks on 'the News'.
Mo
[ 11. February 2006, 02:31 AM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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``Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives, as they have been violent in their deaths."
Excerpted from James Madison's Federalist Paper #10
quote:Originally posted by Mo: Yes, thanks -- I think that's a better term - a Democratic Republic I guess is what I mean when I too loosely say 'Democracy'..
LabRat
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posted
Tlady Litmus isn't a word you would use in this text. Communicating with you seems to be on a par with petting a porcupine, difficult and not particularly rewarding.
I believe you're asking what Bush would have to do to tick me off? IMO Mr. Bush is doing just fine. We're just about finished with our second ``war'', we've gone through a natural disaster, had no further attacks inside of America and there are no shortages or lines for food or fuel!
What I find disturbing is a few unelected people who would like to tell me and the country their version of how the world works and what we should be concerned about, usually over and over! It seems to me these folks have no common sense and may be incapable of thinking on their own, yet they somehow know everything! I'm just green with envy that from the comfort of their hovel, they ferret out the best kept secrets of the world, at least those of President Bush anyway!
You don't like Bush. I DON'T CARE! You don't think we should be in Iraq. I DON'T CARE! I do and we are, and better sooner than later imo.
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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David95928
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If you like President Bush, I DON"T CARE If you think invading Iraq was a good idea, I DON"T CARE.
He's a patholigical liar and the net effect of his decisions has been to greatly broaden the area of influence of Iran and cause our forces to be less able to respond to real emergencies. IMO.
-------------------- Dave Posts: 2034 | From CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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LabRat
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OK, you stated your thoughts on the subject. I think just the opposite.
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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David95928
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It's a two-way street.
-------------------- Dave Posts: 2034 | From CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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LabRat
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Not really, one of us is wrong.
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by LabRat: [QB] Tlady "Litmus isn't a word you would use in this text. Communicating with you seems to be on a par with petting a porcupine, difficult and not particularly rewarding. "
No, I don't agree with you. You like to fight wars. It doesn't appear to matter to you whether we are/were lied to. Doesn't matter if all kinds of legislation was passed that gives the government the ability to take away your rights.
You are apparently content to wait to see whether they execute their new power. People in Germany did much the same thing. When they finally decided Hitler was not what he said he was, it was too late.
"I believe you're asking what Bush would have to do to tick me off? IMO Mr. Bush is doing just fine. We're just about finished with our second ``war'', we've gone through a natural disaster, had no further attacks inside of America and there are no shortages or lines for food or fuel! "
Ok, so as long as YOU don't feel any impact yet, it's okey dokey.
"What I find disturbing is a few unelected people who would like to tell me and the country their version of how the world works and what we should be concerned about, usually over and over!"
One has to be ELECTED to have any knowledge?
"It seems to me these folks have no common sense and may be incapable of thinking on their own, yet they somehow know everything! I'm just green with envy that from the comfort of their hovel, they ferret out the best kept secrets of the world, at least those of President Bush anyway!"
I read the Constitution and a large number of the Founding Fathers' documents. Try it. You'll be amazed at what you learn.
"You don't like Bush. I DON'T CARE! You don't think we should be in Iraq. I DON'T CARE! I do and we are, and better sooner than later imo. "
So basically, no matter what anyone says to you, you're not willing to open your closed mind and consider it.
Posts: 856 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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lymie tony z
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Speaking of equating...Tlady...
Equating our situation to that of the german folks in Nazi Germany is astoundingly inaccurate!
You forget that dubya will be gone in a few short years...
Come on now...
This thread was about illegal wire tapping... Did you catch Meet the press Sunday?
Seems to me Daschle can't remember too much about being informed....kinda like not remembering what he did with his aid's body!
Oh well...zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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LabRat
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OK, I got things to do that are not important so I'll take a little time, this time to give you a GED on a military point of view. This is not a discussion so please pay attention.
First off and probably least important, the constitution was written a long, long time ago. It can mean almost anything to anybody. I must confess, I don't think I've read it all the way through. What I did read didn't jive exactly with the laws I saw on the street. Then was then, now is now!
To say that any military man enjoys and wants to fight wars misses the mark. Normally it's the military that's the first to die, though in this war it may be safer to be in the military. The military man wants to come home from work and play clutch bottom with his cute little foreign wife he married during his last conflict. No sane person wants a war, sometimes there is just no choice.
Your Hitler phobia, I can see no valid comparison in any shape or form, look under your bed, there's nothing there!
``One has to be ELECTED to have any knowledge?''
No, but even a mob has a leader! I would think our president has a pretty good intelligence service at his disposal where as you have...what?
``So basically, no matter what anyone says to you, you're not willing to open your closed mind and consider it. ``
I learn something everyday. Yesterday I learned about the ascending and descending orbits of satellites. I've been trying (for weeks) to figure out all the new navigating equipment my wife has put in our plane. If you try and tell me Bush and Hitler are in the same league, you're wasting my time. If you tell me Bush is a terrorist, you're wasting my time. If you tell me Bush lied, you're wasting my time! If you tell me peace is the way, well what the hell have you told me? Nothing! If you tell me this world will straighten it's self out to everyone's satisfaction without violent conflict, you've pretty much told me that you're to be discounted as a fool and pretty much anything you say should be suspect.
The unfortunate thing with youth is history just started, ya got nothing to put on da scales!
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
LabRat, your dismissal of the Constitution and blank check written to this President concerns me. Not cuz it's you saying it, that doesn't surprise me - but because of the number of people still beholden to Bush that are thinking this way.
There are vary real concerns about the American demise under the shroud of fear put aggressively forth by this admin at every turn..USED to win elections.. about the loss of freedoms and frightening articles in the Patriot Act - and abuses of excecutive power, while lying to the public. These are not a simple statements of "Bush is like Hitler" ..
There's a huge difference between saying "Bush is a Nazi" and saying something to the effect of "some of the changes in American society since 9/11 are disturbingly similar to things that happened in Germany during the Nazi rise to power in the 30s." People like Rush and Bill O are going to color statements with the same brush - "The liberals are calling us Nazis." Effective dismissal tactics used for years (not so effective anymore, I don't think)
Small (and certainly large) steps in the general direction of fascism need to be recognized, pointed out, and challenged. Nazi Germany didn't get that way overnight. Nazi Germany didn't get that way because the German people are more prone to evil deeds than we are.
It does us no good to remember the lessons of Nazi Germany if we aren't willing to speak up in our own country.
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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posted
There are allot of letters published and posts on the web of concerns raised by those who lived through Nazi Germany.
I am citing just some of the points to consider below. It is irresponsible to call the considerations absurd, IMO.. because they are centered squarely in American values. It's our responsibility to protect these values and consider the dangers, especially regarding the excecutive branch.
**snips from an article published on Monday, January 26, 2004 by the San Francisco Chronicle
Are Parallels To Nazi Germany Crazy? by Harley Sorensen
........Perhaps their memories help explain the attitude of Germans toward the Bush administration these days.
They've been there, they've done that. They know what a corrupt government smells like.
**snips included from a website called: "A Teacher's Guide to the Holocaust." The passages in quotations below are taken from the site.
"With Adolf Hitler's ascendancy to the chancellorship, the Nazi Party quickly consolidated its power. Hitler managed to maintain a posture of legality throughout the Nazification process."
Whether by chance or design, Bush is the most powerful American president in modern history. Not only does he have both houses of Congress beholden to him, but the majority of the Supreme Court is acting like a quintet of Bush lapdogs. And it all appears legal.
"Domestically, during the next six years, Hitler completely transformed Germany into a police state."
Civil libertarians insist that this is happening here now, with the USA Patriot Act in force.
"Hitler engaged in a 'diplomatic revolution' by negotiating with other European countries and publicly expressing his strong desire for peace."
Nobody can accuse Bush of being overly diplomatic, but, like all political leaders, he is an apostle for peace, even while starting two wars during his brief tenure.
In 1933, the Reichstag, Germany's parliament building, was burned to the ground. Nobody knows for sure who set the fire. The Nazis blamed communists. "This incident prompted Hitler[,then Germany's chancellor,] to convince [German President Paul von] Hindenburg to issue a Decree for the Protection of People and State that granted Nazis sweeping power to deal with the so-called emergency."
The Reichstag fire parallels the Sept. 11 attacks here, and Hindenburg's decree parallels our USA Patriot Act.
Soon after Hitler took power, the concentration camp at Dachau was created and "the Nazis began arresting Communists, Socialists and labor leaders ... . Parliamentary democracy ended with the Reichstag passage of the Enabling Act, which allowed the government to issue laws without the Reichstag."
With Bush leading all branches of government around by the nose, there's a question whether parliamentary democracy still exists here. Certainly, concentration camps exist, if we're willing to call the lockup at Guant�namo Bay what it really is. And the USA Patriot Act allows the president to effectively take citizenship rights from any American-born criminal suspect.
"Nazi anti-Semitic legislation and propaganda against 'Non-Aryans' was a thinly disguised attack against anyone who had Jewish parents or grandparents. Jews felt increasingly isolated from the rest of German society."
How comfortable do American-born Arabs feel in the United States today?
While the German concentration camps were being built and Jews were being persecuted, in 1936 Nazi Germany hosted the Olympic Games and put its best face forward to the world. We have the Super Bowl.
In the mid- to late 1930s, Germany was able to annex nearby territories without firing a shot. That was because of the threat of the German military, the strongest in the world at the time. That might be compared with the sudden flexibility of Iran, Pakistan, Syria and Libya, all of whom are aware that Bush will do more than just threaten; he'll do it.
When one is comparing then and now, I think the most interesting factor is that most German Jews remained in Germany until it was too late. They just couldn't believe Hitler was as dangerous as some people said he was. The more prescient Jews (most often those who could afford to do so) got out, however.
Hitler came to power in 1933, but the killing of Jews (and others) didn't begin until five years later, in 1938, with the historic Kristallnacht ("Night of Broken Glass") on Nov. 9. On that day, "nearly 1,000 synagogues were set on fire and 76 were destroyed. More than 7,000 Jewish businesses and homes were looted, about 100 Jews were killed, and as many as 30,000 Jews were arrested and sent to concentration camps to be tormented ... ."
We haven't seen anything like that here, nor does it appear to be one the horizon, yet one must wonder about the hundreds shut away in Guant�namo Bay and in other lockups in the United States and throughout the world.
I haven't space here to list all of the apparent comparisons between then and now, but you can see them for yourself by reading the teacher's guide mentioned earlier.
My conclusion is that some comparisons between modern times and Nazi Germany are valid, and some are not. Enough are valid, in my opinion, however, for us to be wary, and as vigilant as humanly possible.
I would hope that Congress, the Supreme Court and the president himself start reeling in the power of the presidency. It has been expanding ever since Franklin D. Roosevelt, if not before, and now it is way out of proportion to what the Founding Fathers had in mind for our system of checks and balances.
Our current president has the power to turn the world into turmoil with a mere stroke of the pen. No man should have that much power, no matter who he is.
Mo
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LabRat
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posted
Oh for Christ sakes! We've been over this so many times, have you got AAD! I'm just not willing to spend the day trying to explain to you what I explained to you yesterday and the day before and the day before! Let's just say, once again, Mo don't know and let it go at that.
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
If you haven't even read the Constitution, you clearly have no knowledge of what this country was founded on. Unbelievable! I guess it wouldn't be a big leap to assume that you haven't read any of the other writings of the Founders either.
I can't believe you even admit to not reading the Constitution, but yet think you can speak to what this country should do. If you haven't read this, how do you know what you're fighting for. McDonald's?
I agree with your statement that some of our laws do not correlate to the Constitution. Exactly. Congress does not check Constitutionality of a law before they vote on it. A law to do just that was put before them some years back and they did not pass it, because they said it would cost too much. Of all the things that we spend money on, the very thought of them voting on laws without knowing if said law is Constitutional is absolutely wrong.
Did you know that for many years, there have been attempts to have another Constitutional Convention to re-write the Constitution. If you haven't even taken the time to read it, how do you know what the difference would be? If you're military, didn't you take some kind of oath to defend the Constitution? If so, how do you know what you're defending if you haven't read it??
Unbelieveable.
Why do you think we have a free country? Before you say, our military... a lot of other countries have militaries too, but do not have the freedom we have enjoyed. It is the document you admit you haven't READ. The principles have not changed from then to now. They are basic principles.
It doesn't take an intellect to play with a gun. Which by the way, I support. I guess you must like our Founders a little bit. They wanted the populace to be armed. Do you know why? Why don't you go check.
By the way, I am not a pacifist. It's important to figure out WHO is the enemy however, before you start shooting. I do not think we are going after the enemy currently.
Why aren't we going after Bin Laden? Is it because there are such close business ties between the Bin Laden family and the Bush family? Why when all air traffic had been shut down after 9-11, was the Bin Laden family flown out of the U.S.? Why now? Have you ever researched the tie?
you said..."The unfortunate thing with youth is history just started, ya got nothing to put on da scales!
Have you heard of books? Sorry to disappoint your premise, but I am not a "youth". But then again, even many of the youth have read the Constitution. You have not. And you call yourself an American?
quote:Originally posted by LabRat: [QB] OK, I got things to do that are not important so I'll take a little time, this time to give you a GED on a military point of view. This is not a discussion so please pay attention.
First off and probably least important, the constitution was written a long, long time ago. It can mean almost anything to anybody. I must confess, I don't think I've read it all the way through. What I did read didn't jive exactly with the laws I saw on the street. Then was then, now is now!
To say that any military man enjoys and wants to fight wars misses the mark. Normally it's the military that's the first to die, though in this war it may be safer to be in the military. The military man wants to come home from work and play clutch bottom with his cute little foreign wife he married during his last conflict. No sane person wants a war, sometimes there is just no choice.
Your Hitler phobia, I can see no valid comparison in any shape or form, look under your bed, there's nothing there!
``One has to be ELECTED to have any knowledge?''
No, but even a mob has a leader! I would think our president has a pretty good intelligence service at his disposal where as you have...what?
``So basically, no matter what anyone says to you, you're not willing to open your closed mind and consider it. ``
I learn something everyday. Yesterday I learned about the ascending and descending orbits of satellites. I've been trying (for weeks) to figure out all the new navigating equipment my wife has put in our plane. If you try and tell me Bush and Hitler are in the same league, you're wasting my time. If you tell me Bush is a terrorist, you're wasting my time. If you tell me Bush lied, you're wasting my time! If you tell me peace is the way, well what the hell have you told me? Nothing! If you tell me this world will straighten it's self out to everyone's satisfaction without violent conflict, you've pretty much told me that you're to be discounted as a fool and pretty much anything you say should be suspect.
The unfortunate thing with youth is history just started, ya got nothing to put on da scales!
posted
Mo is right about what happened in Germany. Go check it out.
Who was it that said something like we should study the past, or we would be doomed to repeat it.
By the way, labrat.. it's ADD.
quote:Originally posted by LabRat: Oh for Christ sakes! We've been over this so many times, have you got AAD! I'm just not willing to spend the day trying to explain to you what I explained to you yesterday and the day before and the day before! Let's just say, once again, Mo don't know and let it go at that.
posted
I can finally die in peace, I've now heard just about everything.
I was surprised to discover from Mo and tequeslady that:
George Bush is about to start his dictatorship of the United States in the same fashion as Adolf Hitler.
George Bush or some of his ``neocon'' cronies were responsible for the attacks of Sept 11 so that he could begin his reign of terror on the United States, similar to Hitler's manipulation of the burning of the Reichstag, Germany's parliament building
George Bush has started two wars during his brief tenure. Here I thought we were attacked on Sept 11, 2001 - silly me.
George Bush won the election through a campaign of fear not by winning a majority of the electoral college votes.
If you can't recite the constitution verbatim, you don't have the right to an opinion concerning that document or what it stands for.
If you don't know the constitution by heart you can't possibly dedicate your adult life to defending what it stands for.
If you haven't read the entire constitution you can NOT call yourself an American.
The terrorist detainee facility at Gitmo is the same as the concentration camps at Dachau and Auswitch.
The U.S. military is no longer pursuing Osma bin Laden because he has family ties to either George Bush or Dick Cheney (couldn't tell which one).
Wow, you two are something else.
I had no idea I was a member of the same board as constitutional experts, military intelligence experts and historical experts all within two people.
I had no idea that the two of you were privy to the precise thoughts of Jefferson, Hamilton and Hancock, et al.
I had no idea that everyone but a few of us has memorized the entire constitution. Here I thought that knowing the principles of the constitution was enough to want to defend what he stands for.
I had no idea that the detainee facility at Gitmo had as it guests common criminals. I thought they were terrorists, who if released would rejoin the effort to kill more Americans. Hell, just let `em all out today.
I had no idea that they were committing genocide in Cuba. I wasn't aware of the gas chambers and the ovens there.
I had no idea that my son was on vacation in Afghanistan. Here all the time I thought he was pursuing the Taliban and al-Qaida, especially Osama bin Laden. I think I'll call his commanding officer and ask him to cancel his vacation, his mother is worried about him.
You folks are absolutely unbelievable.
BTW: it's AADD (Adult Attention Deficit Disorder) or AAD Disorder
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
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Okanogan County Commissioner Dave Schulz says he's convinced his county is a designated home for a "concentration camp'' in case of civil unrest. Schulz says he has copies of documents, although he hasn't been able to confirm the rumor.
Federal officials say they have no idea where the commissioner got the notion of civilian detention camps.
A Federal Emergency Management Agency spokeswoman says it sounds like an urban legend and a Pentagon spokesman says he's not aware of any planned camps in Okanogan County or elsewhere.
Rumors of planned U.S. detention facilities appear on dozens of Web sites.
Schulz says he thinks the plan has been written in the event of a national emergency where martial law is necessary, and hopes it never becomes necessary.
posted
Well, you are good at twisting things, aren't you lymedad? (edited)
I didn't say that Bush was aware of the 9-11 plane crashes long before they happened. I didn't say that a rogue group of our government had any hand in the disaster of that day. You did.
I did say that I found it odd that when all air traffic had been shut down after the crashes, the government shuttled the Bin Ladens out of this country via plane. Yes, I do find that odd. In addition, I find it rather odd to find out the long standing business relationship between the two families.
I also did say that they took advantage of that horrible day to rush some of the most anti-American legislation ever through Congress.
But, you are right in that I think that if you haven't read the Constitution nor any of the Founding Fathers' other documents, that you likely do not have a good basis of what this country stands for. I am shocked that you do not think it is your duty to do so.
You talk and talk about being such a patriotic American, because you are ex-military. That alone does not make you patriotic. Why not learn what you were fighting for? The Constitution is a not a long document. Read it.
That probably explains why you think the Patriot Act is ok too. I'm sure you haven't read that either. Why don't you read it and then decide for yourself whether you think it's a good document?
By the way, no one said you needed to memorize the Constitution. It's a short document and easy to reference. But, you admitted to never reading it. That's a very different thing, don't you think?
I don't know why I am wasting my time. You seem so willing to accept anything that is in the major media. You're not willing to do any research at all.
OPEN YOUR EYES!!!
quote:Originally posted by lymedad: I can finally die in peace, I've now heard just about everything.
I was surprised to discover from Mo and tequeslady that:
George Bush is about to start his dictatorship of the United States in the same fashion as Adolf Hitler.
George Bush or some of his ``neocon'' cronies were responsible for the attacks of Sept 11 so that he could begin his reign of terror on the United States, similar to Hitler's manipulation of the burning of the Reichstag, Germany's parliament building
George Bush has started two wars during his brief tenure. Here I thought we were attacked on Sept 11, 2001 - silly me.
George Bush won the election through a campaign of fear not by winning a majority of the electoral college votes.
If you can't recite the constitution verbatim, you don't have the right to an opinion concerning that document or what it stands for.
If you don't know the constitution by heart you can't possibly dedicate your adult life to defending what it stands for.
If you haven't read the entire constitution you can NOT call yourself an American.
The terrorist detainee facility at Gitmo is the same as the concentration camps at Dachau and Auswitch.
The U.S. military is no longer pursuing Osma bin Laden because he has family ties to either George Bush or Dick Cheney (couldn't tell which one).
Wow, you two are something else.
I had no idea I was a member of the same board as constitutional experts, military intelligence experts and historical experts all within two people.
I had no idea that the two of you were privy to the precise thoughts of Jefferson, Hamilton and Hancock, et al.
I had no idea that everyone but a few of us has memorized the entire constitution. Here I thought that knowing the principles of the constitution was enough to want to defend what he stands for.
I had no idea that the detainee facility at Gitmo had as it guests common criminals. I thought they were terrorists, who if released would rejoin the effort to kill more Americans. Hell, just let `em all out today.
I had no idea that they were committing genocide in Cuba. I wasn't aware of the gas chambers and the ovens there.
I had no idea that my son was on vacation in Afghanistan. Here all the time I thought he was pursuing the Taliban and al-Qaida, especially Osama bin Laden. I think I'll call his commanding officer and ask him to cancel his vacation, his mother is worried about him.
You folks are absolutely unbelievable.
BTW: it's AADD (Adult Attention Deficit Disorder) or AAD Disorder
[ 15. February 2006, 11:51 AM: Message edited by: tequeslady ]
Posts: 856 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by tequeslady: [QB] Well, you are good at twisting things, aren't you labrat?
But, you are right in that I think that if you haven't read the Constitution nor any of the Founding Fathers' other documents, that you likely do not have a good basis of what this country stands for. I am shocked that you do not think it is your duty to do so.
You talk and talk about being such a patriotic American, because you are ex-military. That alone does not make you patriotic. Why not learn what you were fighting for? The Constitution is a not a long document. Read it.
That probably explains why you think the Patriot Act is ok too. I'm sure you haven't read that either. Why don't you read it and then decide for yourself whether you think it's a good document?
By the way, no one said you needed to memorize the Constitution. It's a short document and easy to reference. But, you admitted to never reading it. That's a very different thing, don't you think?
I don't know why I am wasting my time. You seem so willing to accept anything that is in the major media. You're not willing to do any research at all.
OPEN YOUR EYES!!!
Well, you really are out to make a personal attack on those who do not believe as you do...thats evident.
I may not agree with Mo on many areas, but she can refrain from personal affronts most of the time.
If there are no differing opinions, there can be no discussion....only one way conversations.
On the topic of Bush removing Bin Ladens family....I'm wondering what you would think the outcome would have been if he had left them in New York?
Would it have been a pretty picture to see them beaten to death in the streets? Would that have insensed the Arab world to further action against us? The rage was high after the towers were hit.
Why in the world would you find it "odd" to fly them out of the country?
Sometimes its more noble to do the right thing.
You might want to double check who's posts you are responding to, names are mixed up......
To have a discussion about what the proper role of government is, it is important for someone to have read the Constitution.
Sorry you do not agree.
Actually, I think we should have held the Bin Laden family. Certainly, we should have questioned them. We could have put them in protective custody.
you said... "Would it have been a pretty picture to see them beaten to death in the streets? Would that have insensed the Arab world to further action against us? The rage was high after the towers were hit."
No, I think it would be better to invade one of the Arab's sovereign nations and overthrow their government. A country where Osama Bin Laden was NOT located and had nothing to do with 9-11. I'm sure that doesn't anger the Arab world at all. I'm sure that won't "further action against us".
I noticed you didn't say anything about the long standing business relationship between the Bush and Bin Laden families.
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I don't really identify with either group any longer, but I'd be putting it on the front bumper.
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