posted
A big 100 people show up at her protest in Spain, and she proclaimed, "Iraq is worse than Vietnam!!". Apparently Cindy isn't so good at math, or maybe she's just very dishonest. LOL. I think the latter.
"There's only 100 people here and I'm losing my fame!"
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
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LymeOjai
Unregistered
posted
I believe Mrs. Sheehan has gone beyond her grief and actually gone over the edge. The loss of a child must be one of the hardness things a person might have to face.
However, having read some of the statements attributed to Sheehan, she's turned her loss into a personal ego thing.
I'd really like to hear what her son might say if he were here to witness his mother's actions. I'd guess he wouldn't be proud of what she's said and done.
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Even considering your position, you can't begin to know what a son would think if his mother's actions in this case..and I find your comment rather presumptuous.
24, I see you are in typical form.
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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LymeOjai
Unregistered
posted
Mo,
I made no statement of actual knowledge of Sheehan's son's thoughts, I said only that I "think" I know what he would say.
I have read that he was a dedicated warrior who believed in what he was doing.
I can say for certain, that if my mother were to act as Sheehan has, I would be extremely disappointed in her.
Lastly, it appears her husband might share my sentiments since he has divorced her supposedly for her politics.
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posted
Knowing that Sheehan's entire family and realtives have publically denounced her opinions and tactics, it's virtually certain her son would be embarrassed and unhappy with what his mom was doing......even though he still certainly loved her. People that knew Casey said he would not be happy with what his mom has been doing.
Posts: 600 | From Las Vegas, NV | Registered: Nov 2004
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TickMomPA
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posted
I can't stand that lady. They should ship her to China or North Korea with the other America haters.
My son is in the Marines and they have her picture hanging in the bathroom he said. lol
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Mo, Ojai only guessed what her son would think...
Given his current status in this thing it would NOT be presumptuous of him to have an educated opinion...
Nor anyone else that's actually been there done that...unlike yourself.
I would agree she needs grief counselling of some sort to get on with her life. Her pain is a mothers pain...but must be overcome to survive which is what I think her son would want.
Zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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Loribelle
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Well, at least she is out of bed, eating, sleeping, walking... I think I would take to bed and never get up again from the horrible overwhelming grief of losing a child.
You can bet there are people egging her on, encouraging her, telling her she is right on, etc, rallying behind her. Wind beneath her wings...
She deserves more than ridicule and hatred IMO, she DID "give" her son. Can YOU imagine? I now can, now that my own son is home safe and sound...
I am not by any means suggesting that she is doing right, just that she has the right to do what she is doing and that I feel sorry for her.
Posts: 1149 | From southeast iowa | Registered: Sep 2004
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
While I might not agree with what you(or any other american) has to say...I'll defend to the death your right to say it...
However...calling her sons killers "freedom fighters"...
Is just wrong.......period.
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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Loribelle
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posted
Yikes, you are right there Tony.
I was just looking at a mother who lost her child. How very very sad.
Posts: 1149 | From southeast iowa | Registered: Sep 2004
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This woman lost her son..IMO we have all lost many sons and daughters.
I do not know enough of Ms. Sheehans actions to specifically endorse each and every one of them..
however --
I will bet that this comment, among many others, is taken out of context and morphed into attack mode.
PERHAPS, in context, she was saying that IN THEIR MINDS, the insurgents are freedom fighters.
And -- that would be true. The main reason they have not given up.
I find the intensity of the attacks on this woman very disturbing. I think for **some .. it is indicitive of the fact that the attacks against dissenters hold no boundaries. I think SOME would attack Mother Theresa if she spoke out.
I also know that the attacks ensued when she began her initial campaign, which was to simply have a talk with GWB and ask him to explain straight why they have died.
Considering all, and the way this admin has conducted themselves.. the fact that we are loosing men and women daily..
and the aspects of this conflict.. I feel her INITIAL request was valid.
I am perlexed both as to why that was not granted, and why some feel rabid ripping apart and deamonization of this woman is warranted.
btw, (tho I think we just shouldn't 'go there', the bond and respect between mother and son is SACRED -- ) I will say I think there is a good chance, no matter if there is difference in views...that her son would also at least understand his Mom's questions and honor the responsibility and strength to ask them. I understand it is said he was a great warrior, and if so, what he was fighting for represents a government who faces public questions of this nature, and does not shun and asmonish them. Perhaps he was more disturbed that his Commander in Chief did not have an answer, nor did he even acknowledge his mother's question.
What I find most disturbing is that some of the folks insisting fervently that we are fighting for freedom, are at the same time the ones bearing torches in the mob that exists here in America to supress it.
Cindy Sheehan asked a valid question. I have not seen a satisfactory answer (that was not based largely in supposition and opinion/projection) to date. And our Commander in Chief blew it off entirely.
Mo
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
Gee Mo you sure as heck research everything else...
Why not research Cindy and see for yourself...
Look, I can sympathize and empathize with losing a son or daughter as well as the next fella... It's tragic...
But there is a limit to everything.
Even if, the insurgents think of themselves as freedom fighters...in your opinion mo...that's bull... They're Sunni's that lost their power when saddam was toppled and they don't like it. Perhaps they're afraid of retaliation from the shiites or other political groups that would now have the majority of power and chastise the sunni's for past indiscretions perpetrated on them by their former leader....saddam.
In any event...freedom fighters don't go around killing innocent women children and people in general... These attacks are'nt necessarily against our military...unless we're riding there buses and buying food in their markets and praying in their mosques..... Freedom fighters my patoot! their the same MF's you say you want exterminated...
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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you're jumping to the same place as a sector of the Right wing media has with Sheehan..
I said perhaps she meant that the insurgents view thmselves as freedom fighters.
I in no way indicated that I see them as such.
(they also are not just the sunni, largely to many of the insurgent, this is a 'Holy War, in their minds)
This article is old, but goes into some views of the different groups our military are facing in The Middle East:
For faith and country: insurgents fight on
As a US general conceded Iraqi cells are getting more effective, Rory McCarthy speaks to two fighters
Thursday December 16, 2004 The Guardian
He sat at a plain white table in a deserted building not far from Haifa Street, a stronghold of militancy in the heart of the Iraqi capital. Before him was a tray bearing cups of sweet dark tea and a plate of bananas, and as American helicopter gunships carved circles in the sky above, he described how he had become the commander of a hardline Islamic cell in the Iraqi insurgency. The man, in his mid-30s with a trimmed dark beard, studious black-rimmed spectacles and a red-and-white keffiyeh thrown loosely over his shoulders, gave his name only as Abu Mojahed.
Before the war he had been a labourer in Baghdad and was jailed four times under Saddam Hussein's regime because of his adherence to the Salafi creed of Sunni Islam, a strict and conservative belief. He would gather with friends for secret Salafi classes and discussions.
He did not fight when America invaded last year, but did not welcome the war either. "I didn't fight. I stayed at home. If you fight for Saddam and he wins, you are not winning. If America wins, you are not winning," he said. "They freed us from evil but they brought more evil to the country."
As the weeks passed, the clerics in the mosques instructed him and his friends to take up arms."We fight the Americans because they are non-believers and they are coming to fight Islam, calling us terrorists," he said.
The real resistance
Theirs is a story rarely told, a brief insight into the lives of thousands of Iraqi men who have spent the past 18 months fighting a costly guerrilla war against the most powerful army in the world.
Their motivations vary: some are undoubtedly from Saddam's military and intelligence apparatus, others fight to defend tribal or nationalistic honour, but alongside them a much more extreme Islamic militancy has emerged.
The US military has in the past dismissed the fighters as "anti-Iraqi forces" and "terrorists". Several US commanders announced that the back of the insurgency has been broken by the assault on Falluja.
However, **Lieutenant General Lance Smith, deputy chief of US central command, told Reuters yesterday: "[The insurgency] is becoming more effective. They may use doorbells today to blow things up. They may use remote controls from toys to morrow. And as we adapt, they adapt."
The Iraqi fighters, who describe themselves as the "mujahideen", the holy warriors, or for the more secular, the "muqawama", the resistance, insist there is more fighting still to come.
In the past year Haifa Street, in an area full of narrow alleyways in a poor Sunni area on the banks of the Tigris river, has become a focal point - even though it is near the heavily-fortified Green Zone, which houses the US and British embassies and the Iraqi interim government.
Insurgents have laid dozens of bombs beneath the road surface and still appear to be largely in control of the area.
Three groups are understood to operate there: Tawhid and Jihad, the group led by the Jordanian militant Abu Musab al-Zarqawi; the Islamic Army, another extreme group also responsible for kidnappings and beheadings; and a third group of fighters whose name is unclear. Abu Mojahed said he spoke for all three groups, whom he called the "Haifa mujahideen".
He said his targets were the US military and "those supporting them", and that his men had attacked helicopters, tanks and individual soldiers, although he would not describe specific incidents. Unlike other more secular elements in the insurgency, the Salafis have their own agenda for the future of their country, shaped in a language of anger, revenge and rigid Islamic conservatism.
"We fight for our land, against those who are fighting Islam, for our country and for our women," he said.
"Our goal is to fight whoever fights us and not just the Americans. And we want this country ruled by the Tawhid and Sunna," he said. The two words are fundamentals for the Salafis: Tawhid meaning monotheism and Sunna the ways of the Prophet Muhammad. "If that doesn't happen, that means all of us die because we fight until the last breath," he said.
In a second interview, conducted several miles away, a young fighter from a different group spoke of his motivation. He said he fought for his religion. He used a more secular Arabic vocabulary and, typical of many in the insurgency, appeared to have no clear agenda for his country's future.
He gave his name as Abu Abdul Rahman, and sat with a red-and-white keffiyeh wrapped so uncomfortably tight around his face that his dark brown eyes were only occasionally visible.
"Before the war I was an ordinary person living my life and minding my own business," he said. "After the Americans came and invaded my country there was no war to go to except jihad."
Abu Rahman, 25, had been a student, working occasionally. He said he had not supported Saddam, but had chosen not to fight the regime.
From bad to worse
"You could say we were hypnotised by it," he said. Like others, he was grateful that the war brought the dictator's fall, but was angered by the American occupation that followed. "Thanks to the Americans for getting rid of Saddam, but no thanks for still staying in Iraq," he said.
"The idea of jihad came step by step as I watched what the Americans were doing to our country," he said. "In the beginning we were only cousins and friends, and later other people came to join us, people who were presented to us by the sheikhs."
He appeared undeterred by the strength of the US military arsenal, and spoke keenly of martyrdom. "My group and I, we always race to death, so we may die and go to heaven. Our goal is to get the invaders out of our country, and from all the Arab countries, and I hope that after we get them out we will have a couple of moments of peace in our life."
He fought in Falluja in April, during the first attempt by the US marines to take control of the city. "There are many people who have died in my group," he said. "But only one of them really broke my heart. He was a cousin of mine, but it was written for him to be in heaven." The emir, or commander, of their group was also killed in Falluja in April. "He was a friend from childhood," Abu Rahman said.
Because of the intense fighting, it took five days to retrieve the emir's body. "He was always telling us to pray for him to die that day. He would fight with us, not like those leaders who stay in the back. We made a celebration like a wedding party when he died."
Abu Rahman said that although he belonged to a tribe, his motivation was religious, not tribal. He also said some Iraqi police and soldiers should not be touched, and were "serving for the good of their country". Foreign contractors should not be targeted either, he said.
In the end, he said, it was the lack of reconstruction and the continued occupation that had left people so embittered.
"We don't want them, thanks. We can rebuild our own country, we have a long and ancient history. All we are asking is for them to pull out."
[ 05. January 2006, 09:53 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
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David95928
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posted
Mo, Thanks, that was really interesting. As someone who lived a large part of his life outside of the U.S. it may be easier for me to grasp that other people have their own point of view. How many here would welcome foreign invaders. Iraq is THEIR country. It's my belief that the net result from the loss of so many lives, depletion of our military resources, and massive expense will be a doubling of Iran's sphere influence. Before people pass out, I'm not saying that's good, just probable, based on the religious alliance. Let's wait and see what happens. Give it five years.
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