Recent revelations that the National Security Agency has conducted broad surveillance of American citizens' emails and phone calls raise serious questions about the proper role of government in a free society. This is an important and healthy debate, one that too often goes ignored by Congress.
Public concerns about the misnamed Patriot Act are having an impact, as the Senate last week refused to reauthorize the bill for several years. Instead Congress will be back in Washington next month to consider many of the Act's most harmful provisions.
Of course most governments, including our own, cannot resist the temptation to spy on their citizens when it suits government purposes. But America is supposed to be different. We have a mechanism called the Constitution that is supposed to place limits on the power of the federal government. Why does the Constitution have an enumerated powers clause, if the government can do things wildly beyond those powers-- such as establish a domestic spying program? Why have a 4th Amendment, if it does not prohibit government from eavesdropping on phone calls without telling anyone?
We're told that September 11 th changed everything, that new government powers like the Patriot Act are necessary to thwart terrorism. But these are not the most dangerous times in American history, despite the self-flattery of our politicians and media. This is a nation that expelled the British, saw the White House burned to the ground in 1814, fought two world wars, and faced down the Soviet Union. September 11th does not justify ignoring the Constitution by creating broad new federal police powers. The rule of law is worthless if we ignore it whenever crises occur.
The administration assures us that domestic surveillance is done to protect us. But the crucial point is this: Government assurances are not good enough in a free society. The overwhelming burden must always be placed on government to justify any new encroachment on our liberty. Now that the emotions of September 11th have cooled, the American people are less willing to blindly accept terrorism as an excuse for expanding federal surveillance powers. Conservatives who support the Bush administration should remember that powers we give government today will not go away when future administrations take office.
Some Senators last week complained that the Patriot Act is misunderstood. But it's not the American public's fault nobody knows exactly what the Patriot Act does. The Act contains over 500 pages of detailed legalese, the full text of which was neither read nor made available to Congress in a reasonable time before it was voted on- which by itself should have convinced members to vote against it. Many of the surveillance powers authorized in the Act are not clearly defined and have not yet been tested. When they are tested, court challenges are sure to follow. It is precisely because we cannot predict how the Patriot Act will be interpreted and used in future decades that we should question it today.
Posts: 856 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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Softballmom
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We're told that September 11 th changed everything, that new government powers like the Patriot Act are necessary to thwart terrorism. But these are not the most dangerous times in American history, despite the self-flattery of our politicians and media. This is a nation that expelled the British, saw the White House burned to the ground in 1814, fought two world wars, and faced down the Soviet Union. September 11th does not justify ignoring the Constitution by creating broad new federal police powers. The rule of law is worthless if we ignore it whenever crises occur.
No one can say that if we had the technology then that we have now that they would have not done the same.
-------------------- It's not the Lyme, I just can't spell! Posts: 1331 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
You can bet your bippy there is no way they would have done the same, despite the technologies.
All the new technology in the World should not trump the core values in the American Constitution.
Of course changes need to be made with the times.. but it is imperative never to abandon those fundamental, visionary values.
Mo
[ 01. March 2006, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: Mo ]
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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Softballmom
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posted
Mo,
I said no one could say they wouldn't. I was not stating that I was sure they would. You have no way of knowing what they would do.
You speak as if past Government are exempt from doing things as Bush however the things that have happened during Bush's presidency far exceed the past. The things that are going on today are of no comparison. That is my opinion of course.
Every person can say what they would do but until they were put in the drivers seat there is no way of knowing.
-------------------- It's not the Lyme, I just can't spell! Posts: 1331 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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You can get a pretty clear idea of what they would have done if you read a bunch of their letters, etc.
Yes, a lot of things have happened in the last few years. But, just like Congressman Paul said, I question whether they are worse than what this country has already gone through in the past.
To me though, that is an aside... the Founders were very clear that we should protect our liberty. They wrote some great documents to limit the powers of the federal government.
It's hard for me to understand how we are so willingly accepting new laws that have language in them that can classify virtually anyone as a "terrorist".
Through some of this legislation, you can be thrown in prison .... no due process.... no rights, whatsoever. The potential abuse of these laws is astronomical.
I hear the argument all the time... well, they haven't used those parts of the law yet. Don't know. Maybe not. I'm not sure how we would know for sure, if someone can be picked up and thrown in a prison, without being able to contact ANYONE.
Even IF they haven't used parts of the Patriot Act yet, we have given them the ability to do so. I don't think we will approve if they start acting on these parts of the law. But then, it will be kinda late to do much about it.
"Safety" won't be worth much if we don't have freedom or liberty.
Just my opinion.
Posts: 856 | From Texas | Registered: Jan 2005
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LabRat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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You can skew an argument six ways from Sunday. You can say our forefathers would have done this or would have done that. I've mentioned before, then was then and now is now. When the Constitution was written, we were using a hole in the ground for a bathroom. Now we have computerized commodes circling 300 miles above the earth! Then was then, now is now!
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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you are avoiding the central issue here. Basically then, it sounds like you are saying protection of those freedoms does't matter anymore.
Tequeslady -
You wrote:
Through some of this legislation, you can be thrown in prison .... no due process.... no rights, whatsoever. The potential abuse of these laws is astronomical.
I hear the argument all the time... well, they haven't used those parts of the law yet. Don't know. Maybe not. I'm not sure how we would know for sure, if someone can be picked up and thrown in a prison, without being able to contact ANYONE.
That has happened, in a great many cases.
For one example, after 911 there was a round up..
A case of an Egyption man who owned a busines in Manhattan for many years -
--he was held very long term under the exact circumstances you describe, and tortured as well. This case was just settled. (!!) First of it's kind.
He wanted to fight for justice..however he has health problems from the abuses and in Egypt he cannot get any insurance.. lost his busines here of course and was deported to Egypt after the illegal holding and treatment by the U.S...not allowed to return here. ..so he had to settle the case.
- according to him there were hundreds of others he was imprisoned with. Innocents. There are other records and witness of this as well.
So - yes - it is already happening. I am wondering if most of my old neighborhood down there has been stripped of all the Arab busines owners I used to see every day. Some wonderful people.
This is horrifying.
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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LabRat
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The ``core value'' of the constitution, wassa zat? Is one part of the constitution more important that the rest? Could you perhaps use the constitution to undermine the constitution? Of course you can! Anything that prevents you from bringing any kind of weapon in your arsenal to bear on your opponent, whoever he is, undermines and endangers the constitution.
You know mo, (seems like I'm always saying this) there is a war on! I know it doesn't seem like it, there are no shortages or travel restrictions and no restriction on freedom of speech. Everyday our opponents wage war, a little on the ground, a lot on the internet and a lot in newsprint around the world.
We failed to contain the communist in Viet Nam because we lost the propaganda war. The communist won not one battle on the battlefield yet won the war! We were out flanked and the communist got into our universities, recruiting every professor they could buy. Viet Nam is long gone but the lessons learned are still here for all to see, along with a few of the old boys but mostly their old students who are now the professors and the purveyors of the communistic ideas along with a little rewriting history as well!
I'm sure you know how propaganda works mo but let us just review some of the points. I guess we would start off creating as much dissention as possible about as many subjects as possible. We maybe should discredit our leaders as much with lies and fabrications about anything and everything as possible. We could say we're doomed and can't possibly win and on top of that Bush caused the whole damn thing. We could get plenty of ideas, mainly off the internet and some from the newspapers.
Since I've been on Lymenet I've seen post that said America shouldn't defend herself and later was going to kill Afghan children with chunks of concrete! Then there was the quagmire of Iraq that wasn't part of the war on terror and, oh yes, we were lied to. Mo has lurched from one lost cause to the next and her latest seems to be to discredit the Jews and empower the Palestinians! Well, ok, but you better have a big bowl of pinto beans along with those wheaties! Everybody is an expert!
I really wouldn't worry about the constitution, the bible or the communist manifesto, what I would worry about is anyone trying to restrict our government's ability to wage war!
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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Labrat, it sounds like it is YOU that is doing the skewing. All I want to do is for us to adhere to the Constitution. What's wrong with that?
If you would like to amend the Constitution, well then, there is a process for that. It doesn't work to say it was written a long time ago. It makes it seem like you don't think we should follow parts of it now. Am I misunderstanding?
What's at stake here are provisions of the Bill of Rights. Do we or do we not have the Fourth Amendment's guarantee that all Americans shall ``be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects against unreasonable searches and seizure''?
Do we or don't we have assurance that such a God-given right ``shall not be violated'' without a warrant demonstrating ``probable cause, supported by Oath of affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the person or things to be seized''?
The Patriot Act attempts to effectively cancel these essential guarantees and is unconstitutional.
quote:Originally posted by LabRat: You can skew an argument six ways from Sunday. You can say our forefathers would have done this or would have done that. I've mentioned before, then was then and now is now. When the Constitution was written, we were using a hole in the ground for a bathroom. Now we have computerized commodes circling 300 miles above the earth! Then was then, now is now!
LabRat
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 78
posted
Previous post covers your questions pretty well T-post, except, nothing has been god given, granted he was on our side, but we have the freedoms that we have now through fighting and taking these rights as our own. Nobody gave us anything, we took our rights and if we lose them it will be because someone was able to defeat us and take them from us! I think as long as we can keep and bare arms, we'll stay in pretty good shape.
Posts: 1887 | From Corpus Christi, Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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My point was that our Rights, per our Constitution, are "owned" by us; they are not things that government "grants" to us. I realize we have to fight sometimes to preserve those rights too. Believe me I do. I am not a peacenik.
This is so weird to me, because I think we probably believe pretty much the same things. I know we both love this country.
This is where I think the issue is... you trust what our government is doing. I do not. I see them pushing through legislation that is attempting to nullify our Constitution. Yes, I have a problem with that. That's just one of the things I see them doing... but we've talked about some of that before.
I love this country. I am not willing to just trust that Bush & Co. are good dudes and let them trash the document that has helped to preserve our freedoms. And yes, I very much realize that without our great soldiers, this document would have been trashed long ago. However, if we didn't have this foundation called the Constitution, we wouldn't have much of a way of life, or freedom to fight for in the first place.
There are other countries that have strong militaries too. Russia certainly did at one time. However, I wouldn't exactly say they had a way of life that I would like. They had a strong military, but the people did not have freedom.
So, military alone does not do it. There has to be a framework there. Ours is the Constitution. I don't think we should so willingly let it be trampled.
quote:Originally posted by LabRat: Previous post covers your questions pretty well T-post, except, nothing has been god given, granted he was on our side, but we have the freedoms that we have now through fighting and taking these rights as our own. Nobody gave us anything, we took our rights and if we lose them it will be because someone was able to defeat us and take them from us! I think as long as we can keep and bare arms, we'll stay in pretty good shape.
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