Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
lou said...
"I withdraw my remarks about waiting for a plan. There doesn't seem to be one. So our choice is to do an individual sort of protest, with no organization, or no action at all."
MY position- IF there are charges... and when there is a solid plan in place... I will be happy to review it and most likely will support it.
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lou said... "The major failing in the lyme world is inability to organize people who want to help, and steer them in the right direction."
1. This doctor has not been charged with anything. He is simply (not simply in his or our minds, but simply never the less), going through a review. This is a very common procedure. NO one can stop the medical board from doing what the law requires them to do.
2. It is up to the doctor himself and his lawyer to formally announce the charges IF there are charges.... and it is up to THEM to make a plan. Patients can't make plans and go to the rescue if there is nothing at this time to rescue.
A good lawyer with experience, like they said this one has, may be able to nix this whole thing in the bud before it blossoms.
3. If anyone wants to take up this cause and lead a charge... or expects others to do so at this time... and lou is right.. we are all worn to a frazzle.. don't even go there...
PLEASE tell me who that is going to be (raise your hand) and tell us what you will be doing before there is even charges.
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Staris said..
"He treats how he thinks is most effective and patients choose him knowing where he stands."
I DO hope he has that in writing. THAT is one place they "get" doctors who treat Lyme. Do his patients remember signing a paper with that stated on it? I sure hope so!!!
Staris said... "He truly cares. He takes insurance and charges very low rates to those without insurance or who can't afford it."
Most LLMD's I know also care or they wouldn't try to help us. And that is a MUST factor from our point of view.
I can't remember any LLMD's over the years who didn't originally take insurance. That is a BIG part of the problem for the newer doctors now who do... or who try to.
Insurance does NOT want to pay for Lyme. They will target those treating Lyme who DO take insurance... which is why our more experienced Lyme doctors CAN'T take insurance.
And note- Not ONE LLMD has not given major breaks to those who can't afford care at some point. I know. I send people there to them for that reason when necessary. They DO have a heart.
As for insurance...
Example- Dr. J in NC.. now SC. He took insurance. Then the medical board nailed him. By taking insurance he was an easy target... but he did it anyway.
AFTER he was nailed... within hours.. the insurance companies moved in and sued him for MILLIONS of dollars for treating people who the medical board had just "declared" didn't have Lyme and didn't need treatment. For fraud!
Not only did ALL of his patients suffer this tremendous loss...
He lost EVERYTHING!!!! His own family was badly affected by this rotten deal too.
And he was a dear dear man just doing his best trying to help Lyme patients.
In LymeMD's blog post dated 2/3/09, he stated, "My lawyer has advised me to stop treating all Lyme patients.
He has advised me to send all my Lyme patients "somewhere else." Just where that is he doesn't say. The fact that there is virtually no one to send them to- underlines the point that I am the outlier- the target." [emphasis added]
Fuzz
Posts: 503 | From Maryland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Joysie said...
"I see very mixed messages here. One is to wait until we "organize". The other is to wait because maybe we shouldn't be supporting this doctor."
Truth is...
First of all.. again.. there are no charges. Second, there is NO plan that I've seen.
Third... Some doctors have done some very bad things. Not Lyme doctors specifically.. but all doctors.
I don't know this doctor. I don't know what the charges will be. And before I will stand behind them.. any doctor.. I will make it a point to know the doctor and lawyer and the charges.
What if...
What if I made a plan to support an unknown doctor who treated some Lyme patients.. or one of you all did...
And later we learned there was a sexual misconduct charge or a treating while on drugs charge involved.
Oops.
That is why some of us hesitate to jump on a covered wagon.
AND I AM NOT SAYING THIS IS THE CASE HERE... SO DON'T GO THERE!
But... can you see how bad this would be?
I personally, as do others in the community, have too many hours and too much blood, sweat and tears involved in this movement to take that chance.
When we expose ourselves to bad things like this would be.. what credibility do we have the next time around?
So, please know that the hesitating is justified in this and other cases.
The ONLY thing we have to go on is a blog post.. by an unnamed person... that states it would be their last post.
No. Things MUST be done properly before we run off nilly willy and try to do something.
I HOPE you can see where I am coming from.
May I suggest everyone putting this on hold until things are worked out.. and in the meantime.. with all this energy... make it count for something.
CT has a bill that would allow doctors to treat long term. They need help. If it passes there... it could possibly pass in Maryland and other states too.
I am working as hard and fast as I can go with them.. not just to help them... but to learn about it and the pluses and minuses so IF they get it through.. we maybe can too.
If we did.... THAT would solve this doctor's problem.. and many of our problems!
posted
boy, lots of good discussion since i was here in wee am hours!
also, for those wanting to write letters, etc., please go to my post about sending YOUR LYME STORY to a member from www.mdjunction.com lyme board who plans to DELIVER PERSONALLY TO FRANK PALLONE, chair, who is stalling HR 741, and meet with him!
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Sorry, Fuzz, my error. I agree with Tincup's further posts as well. Can't say it better.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
So if tincup does not support this because she says she doesn't enough information and she is too busy elsewhere, there will be no action? And maybe there is some misconduct that is not known about? The situation has been described, and it is obviously a question of someone who treats longterm chronic lyme.
If people do not wish to participate in activism, they should not be throwing in bogus objections. Just be honest about motivations. Whether they are time related, or stage to get involved, or whatever. I really think those statements about possible sexual misconduct or some other unknown factor should be edited out of that post.
Sorry, kids, this train has already left the station. The only question now is whether it will have anyone in the engine to drive the thing to the right destination. People are already writing letters to the legislature.
I agree with fuzzy on some aspects of how this has been handled so far. It is far from a perfect situation.
On the attorney question, his blog says this is a very experienced one, with state board cases in the past. Attorneys almost never advise going the political route. Dr. Jones attorney was opposed to it. See where that got him? These attorneys believe in the legal route as the only one, not realizing what they are up against with the lyme witch hunts. Or maybe they do realize it will drag on forever and be expensive. Who knows. But his attorney has advised him to stop treating lyme patients. Is that a choice we want all lyme docs to make?
My personal opinion is that it is better to stop these actions at the earliest possible stage.
On media involvement, there is only one newspaper in the state that can be relied on for accurate stories on lyme. And tincup is involved with them. No others have been any help so far.
I am sure that the trolls reading this thread will be encouraged that activism efforts on this doc's behalf are not being supported very well. Can they count on this reaction for all the state's docs?
[ 02-05-2009, 11:42 AM: Message edited by: lou ]
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Lou I thank you for your response. I have been too angry and confused to respond. I am seeing this doctor. But I would feel the same way regardless of who it was, pending clearance for sexual misconduct of course. I agree that his anger and public nature are disturbing. But that's about it. Let me remind whoever talked about attention-seeking behavior that we have surely reinforced this behavior by flocking to the blog and praising it.
Aren't we the hypocrites who praise book authors and lymemd's blog until we get scared? We want this illness and the issues to be public but we want it to be "Under the radar" at the same time? We moan and wring our hands-rightfully so-about the expense of treatment but we criticize this man for taking insurance? You all are fascinating.
What IS this? I am trying to understand how to proceed. I feel that ANY time one of our doctors is even threatened, we need to move quickly. I have no experience here but guess what? I am hearing and feeling no leadership from anyone who does.
Please let me know if any of you would like to join me in trying to organize support.PM me or post here. I need ideas.Maybe if we formulate a sensible swift response we can use it in the future to help others. Kris
Posts: 520 | From Maryland | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Thanks to everyone who has pm'd me, please keep it coming. But please send me a private email so I can get a group list together. Thanks Kris
Posts: 520 | From Maryland | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Many of you don't know me since I haven't been as active in years. But I was very active in the fight to protect Lyme doctors which had had its focal point in NYS years ago. We were able to get some changes made that have protected NYS doctors since.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out why I think Tincup is saying to wait. The reason is that there's no one to really fight unless the state charges the doctor.
The state medical board is doing what it is legally supposed to do after it gets complaints.
Yes, the system stinks, because doctors like the IDSA doctors can make false complaints. Then the state is required to investigate. Then doctors who are reported are often kept twisting in the wind for months or years. (Sometimes cases can even be closed without the state bothering to give the doctor official notice. But this is just a lousy system that is a separate issue from Lyme.)
I can't see it helping the doctor if he makes a public fuss about what's happening now.
Doctors are investigated all the time, but the vast majority do not result in charges. So I think publicizing that he's being investigated can only hurt his reputation and **** off the state bureaucrats who are only doing what they're supposed to do by conducting an investigation.
If charges ultimately are levelled, then it looks like there will be many people willing to work together to defend him. Tincup certainly has had experience dealing with this issue, so it's kind of lucky this is happening in her state.
I hope this is helpful. Ellen
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posted
To everyone else, I am maintaining a list of people interested in supporting this doctor. Whether we do something now or later, we need to get people together. Dilly and everyone else certainly do not need to get involved if they don't choose to. Thanks Kris
Posts: 520 | From Maryland | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
The many people I know that see this MD have told me that he is definitely an ILADs doc and he is PRO-PATIENT, ... not anti-ILADs and it saddens me that someone would state so on this forum.
So what if he has questioned some approaches regarding selling supplements, etc. He is only concerned with what is best for the patient and the future of chronic lyme treatment....(how to achieve acceptance and respect for long-term lyme treatment in the mainstream medical community.) Differing opinions are good....discussion is good...bringing lyme treatment "out of the closet" by creating a blog is brave and good.
I am too ill right now to help or even post much but I did want to ask if anyone here was a member of NatCapLyme? Maybe they could be contacted for advice or assistance.
A couple of llmds have told me that at the last ILADS conference when the doctors convened to speak privately, most of the discussion was about lyme activism and how impressed they were with NatCapLyme, their achievements on Capitol Hill and their ability to "get the job done" instead of "making it all about themselves".
I went to one of their lectures (they had an lyme-literate psychiatrist from Georgetown)---it was awesome. They seem very well-organized, with great relationships in the llmd community.
BTW, this is not my doctor, but like others have stated, I am concerned that (1) this could start a precendent for other Maryland llmds and (2) I want him to stay in practice for his patients' sake as well as his own.
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
It looks like there have been some changes in the last couple of days? Or it is too early in the morning for me? VERY possible that is the case.
The doctor's post about him not posting anymore and not being able to treat patients has been removed.... or am I just not able to locate it?
Unfortunately, I am sure all the originals have already been copied by the dark side.
The doctor is continuing to post during the investigation and after he said he wasn't going to? Did the lawyers say ok to doing that... or have the charts been returned and the investigation dropped? Any news?
Has anyone actually spoken to the doctor in detail to find out what exactly he thinks he needs or wants.. or his lawyer wants... if anything at this point?
May I suggest?
Do NOT contact the medical board. Once you rile them up we won't be able to work with them if we need to down the road.
Some Montgomery county politicians (where this doctor is from I believe) have been very ugly to Lyme patients (check with the DC group about this if you want to because we worked together to fight this situation- or go to their website and find the letter they wrote when that bill was on the table... or check with any Maryland groups).
A Montgomery County legislator fought us to get the IDSA guidelines made mandatory in Maryland... and after telling us one thing and doing the opposite- went to the Washington Post to complain about Lyme patients and advocates. The health department egged this on.
In Maryland..
IDSA=Hopkins=Health Department=Many Legislators
Keep in mind the AG's office is also part of the health department... as is the medical board.
Keep in mind some of our worst nightmares have gone from the legislation to the health department/Hopkins/IDSA or just the other way around... and so forth.
They're everywhere! They're everywhere!
Again, I suggest avoiding stirring any of those pots until a solid plan is in place by someone familiar with the internal workings ... as actions taken nilly willy may lead to bigger and badder things if you do.
For what it is worth.
As I generally do, I've run my thoughts on this matter past all of the Maryland LLMD's and Maryland advocates (and some out of state advocates experienced with this kind of situation) that I work with on a regular basis.
The only comments back so far indicated they agreed with what was suggested and it was a well thought out plan. If anyone disagreed or had any other ideas, they did not speak up.
So is there any news? Or am I just to sleepy and missed the doctor's original post?
posted
After giving this much thought (and worry!) I think it is best if we wait and see what happens with the chart review.
I think calling attention to this doctor under these circumstances might stir up unwanted attention from unfriendly sources.
I'm guessing that LymeMD might have had the same thoughts and so took down his request for help on his blog.
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Tincup, he's done that in the past. Makes a post, then later thinks better of it and takes it down. Some time ago, he made two posts about being investigated...then he took them down. Guess he's done something similar again.
His blogging self seems a bit unstable anyway .
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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I'm not sure, but I think he appears to have replaced his original "This may be my last post" with "The fight about lyme." (?) The reader comments that were in response to his original post still remain intact, from what I can tell, and are still on this new post.
I could be wrong, though. Perhaps that "The fight about Lyme" post was there all along.
Don't know what the situation is vis-a-vis his attorney's thoughts on continuing blogging or treating Lyme patients.
One of the main points I was trying to make was based upon what he's shared so far over the months, there was no reason for him to stop treating Lyme patients at this point.
If he was advised to stop treating patients by his attorney, then I fear his attorney does not have a good understanding and grasp of the complexities of the Lyme medical/political situation, nor the medical aspects of the Lyme pathogen itself and the nature of the disease progression.
Just because an attorney has experience in defending clients against the Medical Board, doesn't mean that his expertise with the Lyme issue as a whole is solid.
Again, my comments on the attorney situation are only based upon what he's mentioned so far in his blog -- I do not presume to have all the facts.
What his attorney has advised him to do is attorney-client privileged information and it's none of my business. I'm just putting this out there in case it might help.
He can consult with additional attorneys and form a team, if needed. His attorney can bring on additional legal expertise. It's done all the time.
Based on the information that has been shared so far, and presuming there are no other complicating factors involved, I don't want him to stop treating Lyme patients. Now or ever.
If he continues to post and by posting he's going against his attorney's advice, then I hope that at the very least, he will take care in the language he uses. He's written some posts in months past (which have since been deleted) that were lacking in discretion and professionalism to say the least, in my view.
Treating Lyme is a hotbed of coals at times for patients and doctors alike. There's no need to stoke the fires with rhetoric that is charged with flammable material in a blog.
He also might want to consider that if he goes against attorney advice and continues to blog in such a public manner, that he might have difficulty in retaining legal counsel. Attorneys are not required to defend clients who insist upon being their own mouthpiece and whom ignore legal advice.
posted
Stand up and fight! He/she is already saying they are gonna lose, so what is the sense in supporting someone who is determined to fail?
Yes, these IDSA attacks are horrible, but if the LLMD's don't stand up and fight as a team, how do any of us ever expect to get anywhere? This attack should have been expected and prepared for, and the blog was probably not a wise idea since it gives the enemy blatant access to thoughts and ideas. Think people. I have no sympathy for people who give up. Why should we rally and support some mystery MD who says he's gonna quit, shut down the blog, go crawl under a rock in fear, and not stand up for themselves?
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posted
My position is that I want to be gathering folks who are interested in helping. I want their contact information right at hand, so that if the time comes,we are ready. Many of us do not belong to Nat Cap LDA, or any other group where we might be easily informed or asked for support.It takes time to organize groups.
Therefore, I am continuing to collect contact information. One of our members is in touch with Nat Cap LDA and he will let us know what we need to do.
I will say it once more. Lymemd is a character. Some of these attributes work against him. I don't know whether he should ever have blogged but hello? We all read it and it's alot less wacky than some of us appear here, every day.
Dilly, your sarcasm about lymemd is less than helpful. Guess what?You are not the only person who lives in Maryland. Others of us do and actually SEE this guy as opposed to spreading rumors.If you are so informed, did you know another very active Maryland lyme doc is closing up voluntarily to go do cosmetic work? So our choices are narrowing every day. Hope you can afford to pay ALOT.
I have gotten alot of help from some people here and hope I have extended some in return. But one of my most nagging thoughts is how mentally unstable and ridiculous some of our most frequent posters sound .They are representing us as a constituency group. It embarasses me sometimes, and illustrates why we are all viewed as a bunch of psychosomatic freaks.If "the dark side" truly trolls sites like this then we feed them and are our own worst enemies for some of the plap that people say here.
At any rate, please continue to pm me and I will try to make a list.We do need to stand up and fight at every opportunity. Thanks Kris
Thank you for getting involved...if I feel even an ounce better I will PM you too.
Like you, I can appreciate that LymeMD may not be everyone's traditional idea of a doctor...but the ordeals that lyme patients face are usually not faced by patients of "accepted" illnesses. So it's okay with me if lyme doctors don't fit into a "cookie cutter" mold of how an MD should present him/herself.
I think his blog was a very brave thing to do...and quite informative as well.
Posts: 345 | From East Coast | Registered: Apr 2008
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bettyg
Unregistered
posted
i saw tincup's post below but didn't know who/what it was meant for but after reading the latest posts since i last read, this may be one of the spots it was intended for, so on my own, i'm posting it here.
posted
Bumping so that anyone who is interested in being on a contact list to provide useful support for this lmd knows to pm me. We need more names Thanks Kris
Posts: 520 | From Maryland | Registered: Jan 2007
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posted
Bumping so that anyone who is interested in being on a contact list to provide useful support for this lmd knows to pm me. We need more names Thanks Kris
Posts: 520 | From Maryland | Registered: Jan 2007
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sometimesdilly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9982
posted
amen, WildCondor.
this "attack" may or not have been anticipated by the doc in question- who knows?
But, more generally, here in Maryland there are always some very attuned ears to the ground listening for the boot-steps of IDSA and its minions, and yep, fighting proactively to keep our Lyme docs safe.
.....hint......not all that glitters is gold......
[ 02-13-2009, 01:08 AM: Message edited by: sometimesdilly ]
Posts: 2507 | From lost in the maze | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Did anyone ever find out if the doctor is still needing help?
I know at least one LLMD who is offering to assist if/when needed, but it isn't clear if he even has a problem now???
Has anyone spoken to him to find out?
He is obviously doing what he said his lawyer told him not to do- seeing patients and posting online still- which would indicate he either isn't going to take the legal advise he was given... or things have changed for him ..... so....
passion for.
Posts: 74 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2008
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Hey Ivy,
Welcome!
Thanks for posting with some updated information. I know some of his patients are very anxious to hear news.
Do you know anything more about his plan at this point? Has he been charged with anything?
We've got to be real careful with politics in Maryland, unfortunately, so that has me concerned.
Stirring the wrong pot there will not be a good thing and could do more harm than good.
And, excuse me for "bugging" you... but do you know if his attorney is Lyme literate or not? It can take a LONG time getting them up to speed... if they ever catch on.
Any information you can share would hopefully help his followers feel more connected and informed.
Sorry, I don't know anything more about his plan at this point and I don't know if he has been charged with anything. I am kind of new at this and I don't really understand much of it, then add Lyme brain and what a mess!
I just knew 5 patient records were taken over a year ago and then the news now - that the State of Maryland plans to go forward with investigating.
I don't know who his attorney is.
Just wondering if anyone here that is local and more knowledgeable about this has been in contact with him and could help with giving more info?
Thanks
Posts: 74 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2008
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sometimesdilly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9982
posted
Ivy-
TinCup is and has been for many years the person most knowledgeable about Lyme patients, doctors and Lyme advocacy in the state of Maryland.
As every battle-tested Lyme doc in Maryland and many states away can attest to, nobody else even comes in a close second place.
Thank you, TC, for never giving up or going away...
Dilll
Posts: 2507 | From lost in the maze | Registered: Aug 2006
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Leelee
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19112
posted
I am new to this forum and live in Maryland. I don't know who this dr. is, but my heart is breaking for him and his patients.
A little off-topic, but having read all the prior posts I get the impression that Maryland is a particularly contentious (for lack of a better word) state.
Can anyone supply me with links to articles or places where I can "catch up" on the state's policies.
I haven't been diagnosed, yet, but I was beyond fortunate to have found a LLMD and am awaiting my first appt., although it's a couple months out.
Thank you all, and I am sending good thoughts and warm wishes to all of you and your physicians.
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
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Leelee
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19112
posted
Thank you bettyg. It's frightening and tragic. I bookmarked the link you sent me and will keep up with what is going on here in Maryland.
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
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sometimesdilly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9982
posted
Leelee-
Sorry you have joined us in the Maryland Lyme Club. Lyme and co-infections are epidemic here in our grand state, so you are joining a club of many many thousands, whatever the seriously skewed statistics say.
For what it is worth, Maryland is actually NOT one of the more contentious states Lyme-politics wise.
Many states have no Lyme docs at all. We have the luxury of choosing from a few, and thanks in very large part to TinCup, our docs have not (?yet?) been actively targeted.
Hope you heal quickly and readily...
Posts: 2507 | From lost in the maze | Registered: Aug 2006
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Leelee
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19112
posted
Thank you sometimesdilly. This is an amazing group of people on the forum and the information shared is honest, heartfelt and invaluable.
I haven't been diagnosed yet, but there is no doubt in my mind that I have been sick with this for a few years. I believe my husband is sick as well.
I have vowed no matter what that I will keep up with the Lymes situation and do whatever I can to help further awareness of this horrible disease. It can touch anyone anywhere.
Thanks again.
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
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