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» LymeNet Flash » Questions and Discussion » Medical Questions » Why I am now beginning to believe in electrodermal diagnostic testing... (Page 1)

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Author Topic: Why I am now beginning to believe in electrodermal diagnostic testing...
tick battler
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I would love to hear any thoughts about this, particularly those who believe in rife therapy since this appears to be utilizing a similar concept!

I recently took my entire family to a woman who uses a machine which uses bioenergetic or electrodermal screening to diagnose various diseases. She is an RN who worked for 20 years at a hospital until she had to stop due to "arthritis" which turned out to be Lyme. She was told it was incurable. She healed herself with herbs and became interested in this diagnostic technique.

I had met this woman once before several months ago when I went along with my neighbor on her first visit to observe and take notes. She mostly follows the Cowden protocol but also recommends parasite treatments and some homeopathic meds for viruses.

Since I have been recently researching rife more extensively, I have started to believe that this machine might actually be valid, since it uses frequencies to detect bacteria, viruses and other things in the body. I am not sure how similar it is to rife (maybe someone can clarify), but now that I believe that frequencies can be detected through rife, I am more open to believing they can through other machines.

I took my family to her just before Christmas this year and this is what I observed and learned:

1. Apparently Dr. Cowden uses one of these machines as well. The inventor of this machine was Dr. Reinhold Voll from Germany. See:
http://www.answers.com/topic/reinhold-voll
http://www.energetic-medicine.net/reinhold-voll.html

2. This machine found evidence of babesia, bartonella and Lyme in all of my children, which is what I expected and is consistent with test results. It also found mycoplasma and erlichia, which had not shown up in testing.

3. This machine can apparently determine if certain herbs or abx are helping the infections in the body. You can place the herb or abx on the metal tray while you are holding a metal cylindar attached to the machine and it will show it getting rid of the infection on the screen if that is the correct treatment.

For example, I put bactrim on the tray while my son was being tested and it came up as helping his bartonella infection. I did this with my daughter as well. I know the bactrim is helping both of their symptoms since when I try to take them off it, their bart symtpoms come back within days.

I have recently started my boys on Enula and it did not show up helping their babs but did show it was helping their Erlichia! Has anyone heard of using Enula for Erlichia? Their ears turn red after I give it to them, so I suspect it is doing something. I have not been able to tie it to any symptoms except I think it is helping reduce night sweats in one of my boys.

When I put cryptolepsis on the tray, it showed up helping my boys' babesia.

My husband's test didn't show any babesia, which was a surprise but his only likely babs symptom is occasional night sweats and insomnia, which could be attributed to other infections. And he has been treating babs on and off two years. When we put cryptolepsis on the tray for him, it didn't show up as helping him.

It was interesting that their current protocols mostly did not show up as helping them, which is what I expected since they have been on these drugs for months and they seem to have plateaued.

When we put new things they had not taken such as Flagyl on the tray, it showed it worked on lyme for one child and bart for the other. It also showed up as helping my husband. Samento and Cumanda also showed up as effective for their infections.

All of us tested positive for Candida and for parasites (worms). When I put the children's humaworm on the tray for my boys, it showed it would get rid of the worms. I have had this product and have not yet treated them with it.

All tested positive for EBV and CMV, which was expected. She suspected my husband's unlrelenting headache could be from EBV...has anyone heard of this being a cause of a constant headache?

4. My husband recently gave me the book "Natural Cures They Don't Want you To Know About" by Kevin Trudeau. I don't think this book mentions Lyme or rife but I started reading it last night and guess what...he mentions this type of machine on page 2 of his book!!! This machine and the practioner who used it on him actually saved his life and introduced him to natural/alternative medicine in his early 20's. (He had a heart condition which mainstream docs said was incurable.) I couldn't believe my eyes when he referred to Dr. Voll.

5. These machines are apparently used extensively in Germany and in other countries but are not approved medical devices in this country.

Anyway, I wanted to share this in case any of you would be interested in it and also to see what your thoughts might be about this type of diagnostic tool.

Thanks,

tickbattler

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Starfall1969
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I never heard of this, but it sure sounds interesting.
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gwb
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" My husband recently gave me the book "Natural Cures They Don't Want you To Know About" by Kevin Trudeau."

Anytime you see Kevin Trudeau's name associated with anything, be very leery of it. Google his name and you'll see why.

Gary

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eds
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I've also had a lot of success with EAV, but I've found there are caveats. The skill of the practitioner is critical as the stylus positioning and pressure can affect readings as well as the practitioners mindset. If you are extremely metal toxic results can be off because the metal can affect the electrical readings. A supplement that clears a particular channel can have a negative affect on other channels so all the supplements recommended must be checked at te end of the session to ensure they yield an overall balance.

EAV is much more sensitive than blood tests and has the potential to greatly improve diagnosis and treatment. Unfortunately, the powers that be have suppressed its use and persecuted many who have utilized it. The technique and machines would be much more developed had that not happened. Hopefully, with the support of people like us, more will start useing this testing and it will improve the expertise of the technology and practitioner skill.

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tick battler
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eds,
Thanks so much for your comments! Very encouraging. Just saw my LLMD today and he confirmed that this can work, if the practitioner is good. He has tried it himself and believes in it.

gwb - Yes, Kevin Trudeau seems a little slippery. He did admit that he was in jail for two years but didn't say why...sounded like something related to $$$. I haven't read much more of the book, but was astounded that in the first few pages he was describing the same machine that I just tried. It is just one more person who believes in this therapy.

tickbattler

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D Bergy
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My wife and myself were tested by a EAV device, but I should have went in and not told him anything about our respective conditions. Since we did talk to him about my Crohn's and my wife's Lyme, it would not have been too difficult to come up with pathogens associated with both diseases, with or without the device.

He did find Lyme and Babesia in my wife, but I had already mentioned both of those. He found H-Pylori in myself, which I did have at one time. He also said my allergies were the result of a tetanus shot. Hard to prove something like that one way or another.

I found it interesting, but the lack of information on the method and its mechanism kind of left me skeptical. Had he found the same pathogens without knowledge of our illnesses, I would be impressed, but I did not think of testing it that way, until after the appointment.

Since I used to be an amateur magician, I am always aware of ways these type of things can be faked. So until I can test it blinded, I am on the fence.

Dan

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massman
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eds - excellent take on the machine, its use and the practitioners skills.

I have used one for allergy / sensitivity testing since about 2000. Began doing other applications since about 2006.

I got stuck waiting in Barnes + Noble one day for about 3 hours. Cruised Trudeau's first natural health book + agreed with about 80% of it.
Did not shoot the messenger - even tho the source may have been a bit suspect, the message itself was good.

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TS96
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Correct me if I am wrong but when I had it done I was told it cannot diagnose any particular disease.

It can only tell areas of weakness, stressed areas in different body systems for example, skin, liver, endocrine etc...

red shows stress, yellow weakened and green balanced

Way before I was diagnosed with lyme the practicioner told me I had a infection of unknown origin but couldn't tell me what.

Also had a teeth EAV done. It can tell infections and compatability of dental materials.

I found it very helpful but haven't kept up with it kinda drains the pockets.

--------------------
Bart Henslea 1976
Fibro/CFS/arthritis 2004
Lyme diagnosed 2007
3 1/2 years treatment with oral combos, Cowden, IV roc. BW herbs. Off all abx in 12/10. Feeling good.

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tick battler
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The machine used on me had the frequencies for the various organisms for bartonella hensalea, babesia microti, lyme, etc...so the practitioner was able to tell me which microbes were in my body.

It did change color like you said when those microbes were present.

tickbattler

[ 01-10-2010, 06:57 PM: Message edited by: tick battler ]

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baileypup
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I am very interested in electrodermal testing and have an appointment to be tested this coming week, and will give feedback when I return.

I am not sure about the skill of the practitioner and agree that the caveat is getting someone who really has a skill and sensitivity to this process.

My hope is to able to use the practitioner to help determine which antibiotics and supplements resonate with me. That's not to say, I will do so blindly, it's just more feedback to include in the decision.

I am very curious about the whole thing.....

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Brussels
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Energetic tests can really make treatment goes faster. Much faster than any trial and error, in my opinion.

DBergy, you can ask the guy to test other pathogens (hundreds) and you'll certainly find something you wouldn't expect.

But only screening (testing) is one thing. Finding a thorough treatment is another.

The machine is a big help as energetic tests are a big help, but a treatment line will come from the head of a person, not from a machine (even though it is an excellent tool, MUCH better than trial and error).

I created my own protocol for EACH critter doing energetic tests (see my thread I pulled up called Bartonella alternative Protocol). I did the same for babesia, ehrlichia, rickettsia, and anything else that showed up during months, now years (I treat any cold the same way).

I only stop treating something when I get a balance (enough to eliminate that pathogen). And believe me, once you get the right protocol for each bug, your ecosystem will change fast and you'll need tuning things fast again until there are no more cysts, dormant forms, nothing left.

The infectious diseases inside a body change in an amazing speed, infections get dormant, others rise, get dormant, etc, until everything is cleared.

It was the most wonderful tool I discovered during lyme. Electroacupuncture following Voll tests all acupuncture points that need treatment in the same way. It is also very interesting.

But all that is only a technique. There must be a good brain behind to help people with chronic conditions, because what we need is much more than only killing critters. Killing critters though is essential.

One can create a whole cleansing protocol the same way for each detox organ of the body (liver, lymph, kidneys, intestines, skin) and change it according to the progress.

One can create a whole acupuncture protocol for treatment of symptoms or to balance the body's meridians.

One can create a treatment protocol for psychological problems (for example, someone that feels that is better to be sick than healthy, even though the person says he wants to be better, one can discover that through such electrodermal tests or energetic tests). And so on.

It's a wonderful tool, but it doesn't substitute the practioner. A good practioner needs good tools to get clients well.

A good practioner with bad tools takes longer to help clients. A bad practioner with good tools will only do as much as the tool can help.

But nevertheless, I still find such tests amazing!

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catskillmamala
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I had a practitioner test my entire protocol with one of these machines every couple of months for about a year and a half. My mepron and antibiotics (including IV- which I brought to be tested) and they all came out as positive. We also supplemented with additional detox and organ supports such as chlorella and milk thistle, chinese herbs, antiparasitics, adrenal stuff, etc based on this testing. Therefore my protocol changed over time.

I felt that I couldn't determine what dose of supplements was appropriate and this really helped me. Yes, the testing indicated lyme and babs, which I knew I had.

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lymie_in_md
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TB -- if you had it done in maryland, i was assessed about 2 1/2 years ago. you described exactly the same person to a T. I was also was told what pathogens were at issue. What is interesting, I told her I had 6 root canals, but forgot where they were. Although, I did know, she was able to accurately find each one.

I truly believe the practioner I saw had a good brain as Selma profiled it in helping those with chronic conditions.

--------------------
Bob

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Truthfinder
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My EDS practitioner will NOT get into the names of any diseases or infections, etc. because this can be construed as 'diagnosing'.

For legal reasons, this can get a practitioner into a lot of trouble, so be cautious about sharing too much information about your practitioner with any person you don't know fairly well.

[Frown] Sad state of affairs, but that's the reality of it.

--------------------
Tracy
.... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are.

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steelbone
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I am being tested and treated with the E-Lybria machine. So far things seem to be working. Little so but seeing improvements.

Also using a device call the mrs2000. About to add a rife machine to my protocol along with an ozone machine.

many ways to beat this disease. Just have to figure out what works best for you...

--------------------
All The Best,
Paul
[email protected]

The harder you work the luckier you get!

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baileypup
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I'm sure this is a ridiculous question, considering the technique, but can this be done remotely?

Just looking for a way to get a practitioner that is highly recommended. If you can get the best, then why not....

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steelbone
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All of my treatment is being done long distant via the e-lybria

--------------------
All The Best,
Paul
[email protected]

The harder you work the luckier you get!

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massman
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nspiker - there should be many with EDS machines in your area. I suggest asking in health food stores, friends etc then you interview some of the recommended practitioners.
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baileypup
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steelbone,
Is e-lybria similar to eav, or is it like the scio? I am not familiar with it, but do know the scio can remotely treat. However, I wasn't impressed with the scio. It was a lot of money for minimal effect. I want something that can detect what the underlying issues are, and help to determine the best protocol for me.


massman,
I have found a few eav practitioners, and am trying one today. I was hoping to find someone that was really amazing and intuitive, and recommended, rather than hit-or-miss.

I'm taking abx and supplements with me. I am anxious to see what comes of it....

thanks, nancy

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steelbone
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spike i think it is similar

you read a little bit about the e-lybria here
http://www.energetic-medicine.net/e-lybra.html

--------------------
All The Best,
Paul
[email protected]

The harder you work the luckier you get!

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sparkle7
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Yes, it can be done remotely. I agree with Brussels in that your body changes daily or even hourly.

In my case, it wasn't very accurate. I'm sure some practitioners are very good & it can be quite helpful. It's just that it can also easily be a complete fraud in the wrong hands.

Some people have blind spots & can miss big issues - whether they do it themselves or have someone else do it for them.

It's an interesting technique but in my opinion - I like to consult with different sources, cross-reference research, & try new things. I try to be open minded & not rule anything out.

The lab tests are not accurate, so using this method may be helpful where standard tests can fail. It can also miss major issues that can be contributing to ill health & prescribe things that you don't need.

It's may be useful but use a bit of caution.

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baileypup
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OK, so I found someone for electrodermal testing. She uses the Asyra machine. This machine is different, in that you hold a wand in both hands, and the practitioner does not have to press on meridians, as it is done automatically.

Initially when she scanned my body for a baseline, the things that resonated out of balance were; adrenal glands, connective tissue, eyes, maxillary sinus, and parathyroid.

Then she tested for various bacteria and viruses. The main imbalance was a nanobacterium, followed by rocky mtn. spotted fever, herpes viruses(hhv-6, ebv, cmv), and mycoplasma. I am not familiar with nanobacteria, and did not know about rocky mtn. fever. Herpes viruses and mycoplasma are consistent with my blood tests and past infection. No lyme or co-infections appeared.


She tested specifically for lyme/borellia, and there was no imballance. She tested for babesia, and I tested positive for a number of babesia species. Also had her test for e-coli, and was very imbalanced for a number of e-coli bacteria. Have had an issue with e-coli, so this is consistent with issues I've had.

Then I had her test my antibiotics and supplements. It's amazing that the products I knew were good for me, resonated that my body liked them. I brought in my used IV bag for clindamycin, and it resonated that I loved it, which I do. Had positive responses for all the antibiotics, although, have never felt that zithromax did much, and she corroborated that same thing. She did say that it was neutralized in use with tindamax, which is my protocol. I gave her the script for mepron, which I am supposed to start, and it came back negative. She told me to hold off starting, which is what I had planned, and we will retest later.

Supplements were pretty much right on. I have been using my gut to know what resonates with me, and it was right on. If anything, it taught me that my gut is accurate. I didn't test positive for lyme. I do not feel that I have lyme. I tested positive for babesia, which is what I'm being treated for. We'll see, maybe the lyme has yet to show up.

I am curious tick battler, or anyone else who has used this process; when she initially scanned, did lyme and co-infections show up? My only hesitation in the process is that I had to direct her to test for lyme, babesia, and e-coli, which did NOT show up initially. Is that your experience? I wonder what other things are missed....

nancy

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sparkle7
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You may have certain changes in your body physiology when you tested for things that you had a resonance with. It seemed to affirm that things you liked were good.

I had a remote Asyra test. It said I had mycoplasmas. I had a test done by Garth Nicholson's lab a while back & it was negative. There are things in the air that our bodies may pick up & so we may have been exposed to these things. It doesn't necessarily mean these things need to be treated.

My Asyra test missed parasites. I did some anti-parasite herbs & I passed alot of them. I actually saw them. The Asyra completely missed them.

My practitioner sold me alot of expensive supplements which didn't really do much. I did feel a response from the homeopathic mycoplasma remedy but it wasn't huge or life changing.

I'm not 100% convinced that these tests are accurate.

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seekhelp
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The machine could tell you were holding a 'script' for Mepron? OK, that's too much for me. [Smile]
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lymie_in_md
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Seek -- you should see what it does with a lottery ticket. [lol]

And more on the lighter side : Be careful if you are with a significant other and the question of infidelity comes through!

I think the whole reason a famous golfer crashed his suv is because that day the golfer went to see an EDS specialist with his wife. I'm sure it will be in the enquirer.

I found out I had lyme first from an EDS scan. It was the start or trigger that lyme was possible for me. Then I was ART tested and it confirmed it for me, plus having all the symptoms clinically assessed. I've since seen a few more practioners who based on energetic testing and clinical assessment that I did have lyme.

Like Sparkle said about asyra goes with EDS. It isn't necessarily accurate. You still want to find other ways to ensure what it is you have.

The german doctor who uses photon therapy uses a bicom 2000 and determines if lyme exists or not. The bicom is also an energetic device. Several members of the board were tested to no longer have lyme based on this machine. But no longer having symptoms helps as well.

There will never be a good test about these machines. But, millions of dollars had been spent on there developement. In Russia the cosmonauts used an Oberon machine. NASA uses them as well. It just not released for the public to know.

--------------------
Bob

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massman
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Yeah, testing spinal fluid is much more accurate than testing these weird non-logical energies that the world + universe are supposedly based on.
[loco] [cussing] [dizzy]

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seekhelp
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Massman, I'm just saying how on earth can a script be tested? Really?
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baileypup
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It's a matter of your belief....everything holds energy, even a script, even an empty IV bag.

You may not share this belief, and that's fine. We all go about treatment in different ways. I know of someone, on another website, who is treating rheumatoid arthritis/lyme, by a naturopath. They incorporate electrodermal testing to check every product/antibiotic to see if it resonates with her body. She was having serious pain and reactions to medication; had to go off all abx and heal a leaky gut. Now she has begun to add in antibiotics again. It has worked for her.

I would rater get corroboration that I am doing what is right for my body. For those that don't believe in something like this, then clearly it not right for you. I tested Igenex negative for lyme, equivocal for babesia. Then, positive for the 31 epitope. Everyone I know has come out 31 epitope positive. These tests are notoriously inaccurate. If you were not bit by a tick, and if you test long enough, eventually something will show up. Is it really lyme, or is it another bacteria or viruse. I believe, as does Tamica, that not everything is lyme. I do believe, that you need a doctor, llmd, to treat. The result may be lyme, may not, either way it requires an experienced llmd to treat symptoms.

I don't put blind trust in any one doctor, EDS practitioner, or homeopath, but rely on my own judgment and instincts to guide me. It's just another tool.

nancy

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lymie_in_md
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Nancy -- your view generally is the best I've seen and one I agree with. EDS is a tool just like blood tests. If this thread were about false positives or negatives from blood tests, I'm afraid EDS might come out ahead of it.

Some of these weird energies are in fact extremely coherent. Many times proven by Professor Fritz Popp et. al.., in there testing. All communication in the body is done by subtle energy, not a supposition, but a fact proven. Communication isn't done by chemically means (waaaaaaaay toooooo slooooow) but through biophotons (I program computers -- this I have a strong sense off).

Because of biophotons, western medicine is way behind the curve.

Given subtle energy is the manner in which the body communicates. If you could measure the frequencies generated by the human body on a consistent basis, you could understand how well or poorly a body is functioning. I suspect that is the theory behind these wonderful machines.

However these machines only work as well as the operator and sensitivity of the machine to capture and process the information. Where's consumer report when you really need them. [lol]

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Bob

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sparkle7
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I agree with Nancy. I think these modalities are really worthwhile but you have to use your own judgement, research everything & use your own intuition.

I can't say that electrodermal techniques are any worse than standard lab tests. It's good to have an objective person outside of yourself to assess medical decisions. It's very hard to do everything on your own.

That's why I really appreciate Lymenet.

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massman
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"Communication isn't done by chemically means (waaaaaaaay toooooo slooooow) but through biophotons".

Amen times 3. Why are so many so freaked out that the world really runs on energy [confused]

When a dog dies what leaves its body FIRST ?
Chems or energy [bonk]

Write the script on a blank paper + put it in the energy field. NO BIAS while writing it, like "there is no way this can work".

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baileypup
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sparkle 7 wrote:
quote:
It's an interesting technique but in my opinion - I like to consult with different sources, cross-reference research, & try new things. I try to be open minded & not rule anything out.
I feel exactly the same...ultimately, I am learning what is best for me. Not just 'cuz someone told me so.

Something I forgot to mention. The practitioner was able to use the asyra to automatically create a bio-energetic homeopathic remedy, specifically for my imbalances. I'm sceptical about that.... [confused]

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What did moms + dads do to their kids to make those kids almost always be skeptical ? [Roll Eyes]

25 years ago, sitting in a Chinese restaurant by myself in a state I had never lived in before (with at least 4 years to go in front of me) I got my fortune cookie.

It said that when something happened in my life, I could CHOOSE to look at it 2 different ways.

Danger or opportunity. Which would I choose ?

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lymie_in_md
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I guess when you have a remedy you are skeptical at the start. You've possibly voided any hope the remedy works.

A better way of using a remedy is using your body's communication system to solve something you need correction. A symptom perhaps and put heart into it working. One of the ingredients for energy medicine to work is belief.

Belief is also the rationale of the placebo affect that confounds doctors why some get well and others don't.

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Bob

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baileypup
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Thanks lymie....I believe, I believe....
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sparkle7
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It's good to be open minded as long as you brain doesn't fall out... (Someone once told me that.)

If I take an oxycodone - it has an effect whether I believe in it or not. Some of this belief based medicine has limitations.

If I take a glass of water & focus my belief as hard as I can on it being a cure to what ails me & drink it... does it work?

I don't know... It's not all belief based. Some of it has to do with biochemical reactions to drugs, chemicals, phytochemicals, pathogens, addressing limitations of the body, etc.

It gets me angry when someone says to me that if I don't believe in mercury poisoning - I won't get a toxic reaction when I'm exposed to it. (A physical therapist who was interested in "New Age spirituality" I went to actually believed this.)

Positive thinking is great but it has it's limitations.

Some people are running around like whackos trying to manifest a Mercedes Benz or waiting for a comet to arrive to pick them up & so forth. I have some issues with that kind of thinking.

Setting a goal & working towards it is one thing. Just thinking that your mind can manifest a mansion is a bit far fetched. I don't think anyone here who has gotten well has done it by positive thinking alone.

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massman
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[woohoo]
[woohoo]
[woohoo]

"Just thinking that your mind can manifest a mansion"

That's ALL I have EVER done + boy do I have mansions [Cool]

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lymie_in_md
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I have more of an imagination like in Harry Potter when there was a small tent on the outside, but on the inside room for 30. [lol]

I agree with Nancy ... believe believe believe... I wonder what the Dali Lama sees on the outside and what happens when he steps on the inside. Could the Dali Lama be bitten by a cobra and with his power of being disable its venom.

I think the power we might have is more alluring then the power we don't have. I'll state my case: the movies are full of things we can't possibly do -- marvel and dc comic movies as an example.

Imagine we could manifest a mansion. We could manifest the IDSA guidelines being written to benefit lymies.

I prefer to believe more then being skeptical, because it just feels better. And Massman, I'd go after the Mansion, but the IDSA guidelines are more important. And even more important then all of that, is to find a cheap cure for everyone to get well from this curse. See, an objective target is only achieved when you believe it can be. Otherwise, you just sit at home.

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Bob

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sparkle7
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I'm not a skeptic. It's good to have goals & focus on positive outcomes. I just don't like some of the rhetoric associated with New Age hype stuff - like some ascended master or alien space brother is going to save us... (I'm not trying to offend anyone - just my opinion.)

You would not believe how hard I've been working to create a cheap way to get well... It's taken me 14 years of research. I think I might have cracked it but I can't say for sure yet. Time will tell.

Maybe a Dr. Who style telephone booth for me....?

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"I just don't like some of the rhetoric associated with New Age hype stuff"

EDS is new age hype stuff ? [bonk]

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daisyrlb
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A few weeks ago I would have put myself in the same camp as the skeptics. However, I'm beginning to believe EDS, ART and BRS. It really makes sense.

I remember learning in school about atoms. All matter is made up of atoms. Atoms have energy--those neutrons and protons, positive and negative charges, etc. (Just think about the atom bomb--what happened when scientists figured out how to split the atom?)

You and I are made up of atoms. Atoms is where the energy is and where there is energy it makes sense that there is vibrations/frequencies (whether we can hear them or feel them).

Everything else is made up of atoms too, including Lyme and company. It makes sense that Lyme and company would have their own specific frequencies.

It makes sense there are machines (like rife) and ways to measure these frequencies in the body.

massman, about the New Age stuff, I've been doing some study and am beginning to think they stole it from the Bible.

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Skeptics know + practice focusing on the negative. ONLY.

Their energy is very negative. Not much fun to be around.

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sparkle7
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re - EDS is new age hype stuff?

It can be... Depends on the practitioner, I suppose. I haven't ruled it out but I'm not going to break my neck to find another practitioner any time soon.

I didn't really gain much from my Asyra reading. I don't rule it out but it wasn't very accurate for me. Having blind faith in any particular product or process can be non or counter productive.

Do you think that the placebo effect can be reversed? For example - if someone thinks an herb is very strong, they may be creating adverse reactions that wouldn't normally happen.

I think all of this info about quantum theories in regards towards medicine is great... I'm just not convinced that it's going to cure everyone on the planet, yet.

We still live in 3 dimensions... Many people are suffering with very serious illnesses. It would be excellent to see everyone who is suffering to be well right now.

If this was top priority for the planet, I'm sure we would see some great changes in our reality -

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lymie_in_md
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I recently posted in a separate topic some interviews with Professor Fritz Popp about biophotons and sometime back about the work of Nassim Haramein and the paper he just published mathetically describing atoms as containing blackholes at the core.

We are just starting to learn through physics how the physical world intertwines with the spiritual world. Both Popp and Haramein are two such physicists making large strides in that direction. Also letting us know their philosicphical believes.

I suspect the best remedys require the application of both a spirtual acceptance as well as a physical substance.

Sparkle the problem with the asyra reading its just not perfect. I was lucky with my EDS reading, but I don't think its any better or worse piece of equipment then asyra. It's physics just might be different.

In energy medicine not all things are perfect as to outcome. To get well in the lyme world you have to try many things. Some help, some don't. If you are a perfect skeptic, you don't think you have the disease, but you don't understand why your sick either ( it probably old age).

--------------------
Bob

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daisyrlb
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sparkle7, It seems there is something to our words and thoughts. Something that happens in that energy field.

Have you read this link?
http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm

It's VERY interesting. It's regarding an experiment with water and the effect that words, spoken or written due to their frequencies, have on the water.

The research--is what it is--and the researcher comes to his own conclusions.

I see a simple, yet profound, universal principle in this research: Our words are of utmost importance, especially when you consider our bodies are 70% water.

Imagine the effect our words, prayers and meditation, have on ourselves and others dealing with Lyme.

Who'd have ever guessed our words really do have frequencies/energy. Remember that childhood saying, "Sticks and stones may break my bones but names will never hurt me"? Not true.

(There are lots and lots of scriptures that talk about our words and the effects they have on others, including ourselves. These verses are literally more true than I ever realized. One verse says, "Life and death are in the power of the tongue" meaning our words. WOW!)

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daisyrlb
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Bob, I got a chuckle out of your closing words "probably old age".

The link attached shares how scientific evidence is showing that prayer and meditation do have an impact. Even before the research, I've seen that God answers prayer (not every time how I wanted or expected) but I've seen the results.

Reading this is just fascinating, while at the same time, mind boggling.

http://www.plim.org/PrayerDeb.htm

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Excellent points daisy !

Our words reflect our energy. And our reality.

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"I'm not going to break my neck to find another practitioner any time soon." sayeth sparkle.

So with this type of thinking then the first time you had s_x znd it was not great you never had it again ?

Aaaaahhh..........logic !

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lymie_in_md
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The money part is a big issue, if money weren't an issue, you could try all the mechanisms of energy diagnostics from a wide range of practioners. After 4 or 5 times trying, make up your mind as to the most effective.

Money makes it a one shot deal, fair or not. I know It's an ingredient in my decision as well.

One way I save lots of money, is to avoid practioners as much as possible and try to be self reliant. To that, I've created my own diagnositic ability. So far so good!!!

--------------------
Bob

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lymie_in_md
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Daisy, It's great I provided you something to chuckle over. Not only did I make a point, but I offered therapy as well, double bonus!!!

I guess a skeptic is like those who look at you and assess you have all your pieces there can't be anything wrong. Skeptics can't seem to look deeper into the issue. I live with a skeptic (my wife -- bless her heart), she prefers to see the world only through her own experiences period.

I think sceptics look at themselves sometimes and determine there sick for something they did wrong. Or worse, somebody or something did it to them, ooooooooooooooh the humanity.

Just curious, if we could psychoanalyze a skeptic. Is it a type A personality with strong views on logic? What makes a skeptic tick?

I'm logical, because I have to use logic in my profession. But I usually go after the obscure opportunities and make something out of them. So, I live in a very abstract world as well, I love abstraction because nothing really has to fit and you can create your own reality. I love computers emf and all... I wonder if I could take computers+joy minus computers+emf = 0?

--------------------
Bob

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pryorka
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Here are the two major problems I noticed reading this that should've been red flags

"When I put cryptolepsis on the tray, it showed up helping my boys' babesia."

What is this tray made of? Without putting the cryptolepsis in a spectrometer or in some way gathering information from the substance on the tray the machine has no idea what it is or what to do with it.. it's just impossible. It's a lot like taking the CPU from your computer and sitting a Windows disk on top of it and expecting it to install.

"When we put new things they had not taken such as Flagyl on the tray, it showed it worked on lyme for one child and bart for the other. "

This should be the other big red flag we should all notice because Flagyl does not kill anything aerobic at all ever..never. It's the very nature of how flagyl works, only anaerobic bacteria will take it up into their systems DNA.

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sparkle7
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I'm not really a skeptic. I'm sort of more of a "devil's advocate" or cynic... I'm actually on the side that thinks this stuff works.

The theories are great but I'm not sure the current technology actual can apply what the discoveries in biophotons, quantum theory are about. It very easy for "practitioner" to make money by prescribing things that don't have a huge effect one way or the other.

They tell someone they have exposure to XYZ things & sell them some expensive herbal supplements that are supposed to adjust XYZ things. Then, repeat the cycle every few weeks & rake in the bucks.

It probably makes it alot easier for the practitioner to do this as opposed to studying the patient & their symptoms, records etc. & making a decision for treatment based on knowledge, observation, & intuition.

When a computer prints out a bunch of observations, it gives it some type of legitimacy. I never felt it should be perfect but it has it's limitations.

Some people feel the Emoto theories are not valid. I love the idea but I'm not convinced that it's really based on some kind of actual effect.

Why is western classical music supposedly "better" than other forms of music for making symmetrical ice crystals? I find that kind of odd.

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tick battler
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The tray was metal, I think. I know it seems very hard to believe that it can work, but its readings were consistent with my hunches about what has been working on my children. Maybe someone who understands it better can explain how it could work.

I agree the Flagyl thing is a red flag, as I have not heard that it can hit bart. Perhaps that reading was an error, who knows. But the Flagyl is certainly causing a herx in my child, whether it's lyme or bart. My son hasn't herxed or improved in 6 months on his other meds, which were shown to not be effective through this machine.

I am not putting all of my faith in this machine, but I am going to use it to see if it confirms my hunches, as I think there are enough intelligent people out there who believe that it can work in the right hands. (E.g., Dr. Cowden, Dr. H in NY).

tickbattler

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"They tell someone they have exposure to XYZ things & sell them some expensive herbal supplements that are supposed to adjust XYZ things. Then, repeat the cycle every few weeks & rake in the bucks."

Yup. This is exactly what all practitioners do ! They are all exactly the same [Roll Eyes]

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daisyrlb
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Bob, thanks for the free therapy. "Laughter does good like medicine" (according to my plumb line).

sparkle7, regarding your question about western classical music...I encourage you to read this. You may get your answer.

This is fascinating!

http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm

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sparkle7
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Yes you are correct, massman. They are all the same. That's why I decided to do my own research & not go to doctors or practitioners as often.

daisy - I read the info about Emoto. It's a beautiful idea. I even tried putting words on water bottles myself. I don't know what it actually accomplishes, though.

I thought it was odd that heavy metal music produced a "bad" result. Sometimes cathartic or dissonant things can be of use in the world.

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daisyrlb
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sparkle7, The research Emoto did, those pictures and results--amazing.

What I got out of it--our bodies are 70% water (give or take). What kind of an effect do our words or other people's words have on us and others?

More than I ever imagined!

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sparkle7
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Yes - that's why we got rid of the TV...

I guess I don't like the idea of putting a value judgement on one type of music versus another. I think the results may be somehow tainted. To some people, listening to heavy metal may be cathartic - which is good. I guess that's my issue with these crystals...

I also read somewhere that the pictures of the water crystals were retouched & that it's a fake. I don't know if it's true.

It's hard to say how intention effects the world. There are a number of writers & scientists who explore this idea.

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daisyrlb
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sparkle7, You got rid of your TV? Cool.

I see what you mean about the music--I didn't even think of that.

It was such a fascinating experiment to me, that I decided not to let the researchers' interpretation influence me. I was more reading it like--is there some universal principle here?

[ 01-18-2010, 02:26 PM: Message edited by: daisyrlb ]

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seekhelp
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Unfortunately, this is exactly what I've experienced in real life Massman. There's no talk about an endpoint. My challenge will always be give the practicioner NOTHING to work off of and see just how good he/she really is.

quote:
Originally posted by massman:
"They tell someone they have exposure to XYZ things & sell them some expensive herbal supplements that are supposed to adjust XYZ things. Then, repeat the cycle every few weeks & rake in the bucks."

Yup. This is exactly what all practitioners do ! They are all exactly the same [Roll Eyes]


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"There's no talk about an endpoint. My challenge will always be give the practicioner NOTHING to work off of and see just how good he/she really is."

Gee...I was taught that 85% of diagnoses could be made by a good thorough history. I think it was Dr. S that taught that.

Did you miss class that day ?

Here we have one of the toughest diseases to diagnose + treat well and you give the doc nothing ?

Might this be a reason why so many self diagnose, self treat + then complain of poor results ? Feel I know the answer to that already.

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sparkle7
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massman - do you actually have Lyme or a co-infection or are you trying to raise everyone's danders here? Do you have any of your own experience to share?

It's just that you have this attitude that you have all the answers... I don't have anything against you but we don't like it when people promote products here. That's the only issue I had with some of your posts in the past.

We're all sharing our experience. Do you have something helpful to add?

Not everyone here has the same opinion. That what's cool about Lymenet. We try to learn from each other what works for us or what doesn't.

In some cases, maybe it's good not to bias the person doing a EDT...? That's a valid approach. It's not what I would do but I can see how it would be valid.

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seekhelp
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Let's agree to disagree to an extent Massman. All I speak from is personal experience. That being whatever the alternative practicioner was 'told' to be the suspected problem 100% of the time was 'confirmed' to be so. Sorry, but I don't believe in perfection.

Does this mean it's all BS? NO. I just don't buy into it all. Is that so bad?

Sparkle7, yes I recall Massman stating many times he has Lyme, got ill in 1991 and still struggles hence treating w/Innovita products.

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massman
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Lyme + Babs.

As MT/DC I studied techniques till I found a great one that worked. RESULTS were and what counted. Resolve 14 migraines a year to 1 per year.

With hormone problems I diligently SEARCHED till I found things that worked well. Studied with someone Dr. K taught. This Dr. U turned me on to what I now recommend.

Again got good results and was impressed.

"It's just that you have this attitude that you have all the answers... I don't have anything against you but we don't like it when people promote products here. That's the only issue I had with some of your posts in the past."

I do not have all the answers, just some experience treating hundreds of patients with "alternative" techniques and many thousands of patients with chiro techs.

If you decide to say that is "promoting products" that is up to you.

I am suggesting products that IME generally produce good to excellent results. No compensation to me in any way shape or form.

So I get pounded as a salesman when the only trying to help others with this nasty strange disease ? Oh well....

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sparkle7
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I sorry if I sounded like I was pounding you, massman. It's just that you never got back to me when I asked you if you were selling products...

I assumed that since you didn't - that you were... Maybe you can be more specific about your personal protocol? That way it won't be construed as "giving advice" (as a practitioner), trying to get patients, or selling things.

There have been people on this message board who made money from people here in an unscrupulous manner... It's not that far fetched. I just don't have patience for that sort of thing.

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massman
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Will reply tomorrow - nighty nite time now [Cool]
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I am then evil times 2.

Making recommendations and NOT making $$$ off of it. I recommend things that I have experience using with patients and for myself.

Assumptions here that that makes me a money grubber ?

Life in an always paranoid world. LOL as anyone can say anything on the net. Some here have posted they have read a book + when I ask for a 5 sentence review to prove it they get annoyed ?

Using Inno-Vita for current challenges due to lyme.
Just started 3rd bottle of Lepterra.

Supported kidneys, spleen, for past 2 months.
Supported liver with detox for 3 months.
Supported pituitary, thyroid for 2 months.
Supported hypothalamus for last week.

Babs support about 10 days (first 24 hours urine moderately red, small specks in it. (visual analysis in bottle)

Tendency to recurring gout significantly reduced.

Muscle pain + spasms (mostly in extensors) reduced 80%. Low back pain reduced 80 to 90%

Joint swelling significantly reduced

Brain fog reduced - speech + comprehension improving.

Sleep improving (had been poor since 2001 stroke)

Anger + frustration usually significantly reduced.

If interested you can search for more specific info at the Inno-Vita site.

and finally a ?

What happened in your life to make you so pessimistic ? Are we allowed to talk about emotional factors here ?

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lymie_in_md
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Massman I'm rooting for you to get well. I also am rooting for Sparkle to get well, as well as all those who have lyme. I'm also rooting for greater compassion and respect for each other when we post.

As far as Pessimism, it starts when we spend lots of money without too much benefit, and when money is scarce. A simple definition!

I've seen pessimism grow to despair in the lyme support group I participate. To me, that is a great reason to get well.

--------------------
Bob

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Thanks Bob. Do you feel many do not search diligently when they look for a lyme literate practitioner ?

And do people assume that if a good bit of money is spent then results should come pretty quickly ?

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sparkle7
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massman - for someone who has treated alot of patients, you don't really know about how intensely some of us have been suffering...

Just read any of the numerous posts here. People are really screaming out for help. Someone here told me they spent $250,000 trying to get well & they are still ailing.

I've read about people going through divorces, bankruptcy, losing their homes, jobs - everything - in a nutshell... due to Lyme & the co-infections. Not to mention the loss of health & pain & suffering.

I've seen people here posting about being ready to try suicide more than once.

It's not that we are stupid, ignorant, lacking experience, education, have not tried or are trying numerous things - alternative & allopathic. Many of the so-called professionals - alternative & allopathic have failed us.

One doctor I was looking into charges $7000 for the first visit...

I've been studying this for 14 years. I think it's a bit crass to imply that we are looking for a quick fix & we haven't searched thoroughly enough for a knowledgeable practitioner...

By nature - I'm not a pessimist. If I was, I would have given up long ago. I'm just very critical of things that are suggested to "cure" Lyme, Fibromyalgia, CFS, co-infections, etc. I've tried 100's of things that didn't work for me.

I probably would have been better off going to a spa in Hawaii for a couple of weeks than on what I have spent on stuff that did not work.

I'm glad you found the InnoVita line helpful. I tried it & didn't find any improvement. I did actually give it a good try. They are quite expensive & I need to consult with someone to get them - so, I have to pay an extra fee to someone to order them for me.

Some of us feel comfortable taking matters into our own hands. I would prefer to order the bulk herbs & search out the less expensive forms of supplements.

It really comes down to which items are more cost effective for our dollars & which items will really target the problems we may have. Some people do well on something as inexpensive as salt & vitamin C.

It's always nice to support the liver, spleen or thymus (etc.) but if we are fighting a specific pathogen - it's not going to get to the root of the problem.

Taking black cohosh is not going to cure syphilis... Taking vitamin C will not cure malaria... but a handful of pumpkin seeds may help get rid of intestinal parasites along with some black, green walnut hulls, cloves & wormwood.

When you say you supported your liver with a detox - what exactly does that mean? It's kind of vague. There are many forms of detox & cleanses for the liver...

Some people here would like to know so that they can see if it's something they can learn about or try. This is what I mean by "sharing" information.

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massman
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Dr. K apparently feels that poor detox capability leads to most symptoms. I pretty much agree.

For my liver I have used Ls + ACX from Systemic and Livergy + Tox-ex from Inno-Vita.

Why should I believe people are diligently searching when short books I have suggested are repeatedly ignored ? It was like I was insulting people by asking them to read a real book or two ?

You are assuming that I know little about how people feel. How do you know what my experiences have been ?

You tried Inno-Vita and no results ? Anybody can post anything on the net. How do we confirm that ?

And such interest ( [bonk] satire alert) in understanding the difference between straight herbals + mixed herbals ! [Roll Eyes]

Wear more camoflauge when you fish.

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lymie_in_md
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We are human, many folks expect investment size with certain results. And to some extent that is true. But, if someone doesn't take full responsibility for there own disease, then they will not get a perfect result.

And, I don't believe most people research correctly, and assume western medicine had a better understanding of chronic issues then they do. Given the track record of western medicine, all these conditions without causes. I'd say are pretty dismal. So many, even myself have a great bit of unlearning, before we can find positive and effective treatment. Sometimes this is years before we can divorce ourselves from medicine at exists.

--------------------
Bob

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Thanks Bob. Excellent points.

I have been "divorced" from traditional medicine for over 30 years right after my first chiropractic visit.

Western med is good for trauma + some infectious diseases but not really for anything chronic, IMO.

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gwb
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Very true. We are learning this at the Clinic I'm at in KS. Dr J gets "frustrated" (but not impatient) with me sometimes because my questions come from the "western medicine" mindset.

He's trying to teach me to "unlearn" what I've learned and to understand that there are other methods that can be far more effective than what we've been traditionally led to believe. His book Beating Lyme Disease explains all of this really well.

My wife (daisyrlb) posted a little bit about this on my thread "gwb clinic adventure".

Gotta go to my appt now! More later.

Gary

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lymie_in_md
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Sparkle -- I've gotten out into the fields to tincture my own extracts. One I've tinctured is both the echinacea root and separately the echinacea leafs. Both in mason jars and 50% alcohol. I'm also tincturing yarrow and teasel root. I love the idea of going into nature to get what I need. It is very cost effective. I have several, the best one I've made is blackhull walnut. It is a superb concoction. Another one I created was polk root. Several others to support liver and kidneys. I have enough of these for years.

It is much cheaper then supplementing. And in someways more effective and rewarding.

Next year, I'm interested in St. Johns Wort, Dandelion Root, some tree barks, it can go on and on.

I use them often in tea and water. They create there own flavour of distinction in whatever I make. I can add them to my kombucha with black cherry juice. Herbs have openned a much more pleasurable world for me.

As far as this topic, EDS works, its just not perfect. There is nothing perfect in this universe. In a short story I believe it was Nethaniel Hawthorne who had a character who had married a women who was perfect except for a mole. He determined to remove the mole at all costs to create perfection. And when he finally achieved this perfection, she died.

There are no perfect solutions only wise choices depending on your own resources.

What I would love to see someday from the lymie community. Is more of us working together to get each other well directly. Like sharing rife or LED machines and reducing costs so treatments can advance for the group, beyond the limitations put on LLMDs. Specialization in making herbal remedies, person A does echinacea and person B does poke root.

We'll see...

[ 01-21-2010, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: lymie_in_md ]

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Bob

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