Topic: Why I am now beginning to believe in electrodermal diagnostic testing...
sparkle7
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Interesting Bob...!
I'm looking into making my own capsules these days from bulk herbs.
massman - I'm not interested in picking a bone with you. If you like the InnoVita herbs - great. I just thought they were over priced & had too many ingredients for my liking.
Herbal synergies can be great & they have been used in Traditional Chinese Medicine for 1000s of years.
I like to know how the herbs are effecting me - so, I'd prefer to use smaller combinations or single herbs so I can adjust the dosage when necessary. I take many herbs in a day but they are in separate bottles.
In my case - I'm not recommending anyone to do as I do - I prefer using a medical dowsing instrument to figure out what I need to do. I don't really need the EDT. I didn't find it to be all that accurate.
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lymie_in_md
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I agree with Sparkle if you are comfortable with dowsing. Its just cheaper, however, i've often thought about getting an assessment sometime using radionics. I doubt I would use an EDS in the next round. That is open ended and not an immediate item on my list of things. Could be a year out.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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massman
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"too many ingredients for my liking."
The mixes are for synergism (work better when taken todether) than for liking.
"Herbal synergies can be great & they have been used in Traditional Chinese Medicine for 1000s of years."
Perhaps a bit, but not like Systemic + Inno-Vita that have had their bioenergetic frequencies measured for specific combinations to help increase efficiency and greatly reduce or eliminate side effects.
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I will look into this "latest generation" electrodiagnostic practice but nearly every sort of "energy medicine" diagnostic I've professionally discussed and personally tried has not worked for me. ART, "muscle testing" etc... have proven absolutely nothing positive for me.
I think some people, and some practitioners genuinely believe in them. However, I've seen a lot of issues with them. Does anyone remember that old "Crossing Over with John Edwards" show, where John attempted to contact the spirits of the deceased in the room with what seemed like amazing accuracy? He was really using a technique called "Cold Reading". There's plenty of information on the internet about how its done, so I won't bore anyone with the details, but suffice it to say it is a psychological "trick" of sorts. I get the feeling that lots of "energy testing" is something similar.
Sure, it was detected that I was for instance, chronically ill. Well, being that I was in an office where 99% of people who seek help there were chronically ill, this is no big surprise. I also noticed that both practitioner-based and machine based (practitioner interpreted, of course) tests varied a ton based on the pages and pages of paperwork I filled out beforehand.
When I filled it out for my known infections and symptoms, those things "came up" during the testing, sparking prescription for expensive herbal remedies and treatments for said issues. When I used totally fictitious diagnoses and symptoms, parameters illustrating those exact things come up instead, and NOTHING about my known illnesses.
In my experience, patients already tell these practitioners what they need to know to make "magical" diagnoses. If you come in saying you're tired and have X Y, and Z symptoms, then they'll pick out something that probably goes along with X, Y, and Z. There is always an expensive protocol for treatment (not covered by insurance, of course).
The other thing that frustrates me is that there's no guarantees that any therapies or diagnoses are in the least, accurate, and if they are wrong or don't work, it is somehow the patient's fault. I've had a woman come to me who was told, after spending $2000 on remedies, by one of these practitioners that because she was stressed and unhappy her negative energy stopped the "medicine" from working. When I suggested trying some Tindamax and other antibiotics instead, she actually started to have reactions and eventually positive changes, regardless of your "state of mind". Tindamax doesn't care if you're depressed. It doesn't care if you're angry or frustrated from being sick. It doesn't care if you don't "Believe". It just works against certain organisms that are vulnerable to it. It also has a well-defined scope and methodology of action, so you know where to apply it and where it won't help (ie. No use on viruses!). That, is medicine. Some of these other treatments? Not medicine.
I wholeheartedly believe there is a whole emerging field of medicine out there, that "all symptoms are caused by something", that "good enough" just isn't good enough, but these ideas are not at odds with Western medicine. I'm pragmatic when it comes to therapies I will try myself and those I recommend to patients - I don't care where it comes from, I'd like to /know/ how it works but that is secondary, as long as there is demonstrable proof that it works. The plural of anecdote is not data! There are people who are supposedly "cured" by anything from prayer to simply waiting long enough until what ails them poofs away, but we certainly don't rely on these occurrences as protocol!
To date, I've not found "energy diagnostic" and subsequent type treatments that seem reliable enough to recommend them to anyone, especially when some practitioners charge a fortune, rather than try to get their practice out there into the broad definition of medicine by making it accessible to those who truly need it.
I'll keep my eyes open for new developments as always, and there are some promising developments in emerging fields (ie. homeopathy. Lots of double blind studies there. Even if we don't know the "why" or if the "why" is wrong, there's clearly some effectiveness being demonstrated), but at current I cannot recommend current, USA available energy diagnostics/treatments.
I'm interested in the exact models and availability/construction/build of the "new generation" machines that the original poster is speaking about. I've been considering purchasing one of these devices for quite some time to attempt to evaluate its effectiveness and run a few minor trials.
If someone would like to link this data to me and feels more comfortable doing so in a PM, that's quite all right.
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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lymie_in_md
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I've only had EDS done once and it said I had lyme. A clinical diagnosis later confirmed along with ART testing. And yes these could have been as you said, based on a technique. However when I had the eds done, i told the practioner i had 6 root canals but I said I didn't know where they were. She reported exactly where they were, but I guess I was lucky.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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massman
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Blackstone - Are tou a health pro ? What kind ?
What does not work well for you does not work well for anyone else ?
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sparkle7
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Yes, I agree with you Blackstone.
There's the possibility with both "energy medicine" & regular allopathic medicine that "we" as patients don't do enough. I've heard that said in regards to not taking abx long enough or taking the correct combination.
If we don't have any accurate testing for Lyme or the co-infections - all of these prescriptions may not be the correct thing that we need. Just "believing" in doxycycline or our doctor isn't going to do it, either.
There's no actual data or studies that I have seen that proves that applied kinesiology or these electrodermal testing devices are accurate. Might as well flip a coin...
I do believe in the power of the mind & things that can't be easily explained. It's just that when it comes to spending alot of money on healthcare - I think there needs to be a little more than belief or faith.
Some people are very good practitioners - whether they are using herbal remedies or are an MD. Sometimes, I can just be surfing the internet & find the answer to a question I may have been thinking about. Is there something to explain this? Is it coincidence, syncronicity, intuition, luck, intellect or skill?
Sometimes we get the answer we need & sometimes it's alot of work. It difficult with Lyme since it may be symptoms of Lyme or it may be something else. There are overlaps in the symptoms with many other illnesses.
It's very frustrating - so, people look to practitioners who use non-traditional means to give them the answers. The answers may be right or they may be wrong. We just don't know...
Taking some supplement to support the spleen, liver, gall bladder, etc. is not going to hurt us but it may not be the reason why we are ill.
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massman
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"There's no actual data or studies" - there are none due to the FACT that EDS + AK cannot be studied the same way drugs + medicine are.
"Taking some supplement to support the spleen, liver, gall bladder, etc. is not going to hurt us but it may not be the reason why we are ill.". So Dr K is wrong when he says many symptoms are due to toxins produced and not eliminated correctly.
seekhelp
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I agree with most of what Blackstone said. Yes, I'm not popular. I know. Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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Brussels
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There are energy test and energy tests. There are medical doctors and medical doctors.
Just because you use a tool called energetic testing (whatever if a machine or just humanly measured), it doesn't mean you are better than a good doctor that uses no energetic tests.
Having said that, since I got in touch with ART, I didn't find any other energy test modality that can compare to this 'system'.
If you can't find it because link is too big, just go to Mercola site and search by the name of Dr. K and ART, you'll find it.
This system of testing is muuuuch more sophisticated than a simple machine reading like Asyra, Vega, whatever. It involves much more. The muscle test is just a simple instrument, like a thermometer is an instrument.
Even a bad ART practioner will probably find quite a lot of issues and put the issues into a hierarchical frame. What is difficult in chronic diseases is to give a hierarchical order for treatment.
We all know that we go to the doctor with a list of 50 symptoms and the ones ranking higher are the ones causing us greater pain or greater disability. For us, these are the highest ranking problems.
But are these the ones that should be treated first? Not always. ART can give you hints about that hierarchical order of treatment, in my opinion.
I gotta go now. Anyway, I was a skeptical and see to what I turned into.
It took me years to find a good homeopath. It was not the first one that helped me. Same goes for all allopathic doctors. Why wouldn't that be different for energy medicine?
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Truthfinder
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Blackstone, I'm not sure I understand. You're saying that you spent $100+ on some type of `energy diagnostic' testing using bogus `diagnoses and symptoms' on the initial questionnaire/ paperwork? Do I have that correct? Could you elaborate a bit (what type of testing this was, etc.)?
You said: **'' I've had a woman come to me who was told, after spending $2000 on remedies, by one of these practitioners that because she was stressed and unhappy her negative energy stopped the "medicine" from working.**
All I can say about that situation is that the practitioner either didn't have the ability (proper medicines and training) to treat this patient as a `whole person', and/or the practitioner doesn't understand what `holistic' really means.
Brussels, just curious - what type `electronic testing machines' have you used in the past in Europe for evaluation purposes?
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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massman
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This is the thread where people (I think they are people) do not answer straight forward questions.
When these creatures think something does not work for them that means it does not and cannot work for anybody.
So of course I will ask: Is the primary force of life chemicals or energy ?
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It shows that muscle testing, EAV, SCIO, and all energy testing, are just tools. It sounds like Dr. K. tests using various protocols, and cross references using different muscle testing techniques to see where the body is in harmony or weakness.
What I like about energy testing is that it can ASSIST in determining what to treat first, and how to support treatment. Ultimately, we make the decision for ourselves.
Brussels, have you learned to use ART on yourself?
Massman, I completely agree with your statement, that quoted Dr. K. as saying that many symptoms are due to toxins produced, and not eliminated correctly. If I have learned anything in my short tenure as a probable lyme/babesia patient, it is that most often, flu-like symptoms and achiness, is caused by toxins released and recirculation, and not eliminated...
nancy
Posts: 964 | From san diego | Registered: Oct 2009
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@Massman - In the fields of medicine and even in law as well, stating that "I am a doctor" or "I am a lawyer" in certain situations mean that you have to also state that "This is not to be taken as medical advice from a physician" or "I am not acting as legal counsel at this time" because of legality and ethical issues.
There are LLMDs who browse this board and others, but unless they wish to take a certain "responsibility" for doing so, they never state who they are in public for a number of reasons. I prefer not to divulge my exact status except to stay that at current I do not practice due to disability.
Nomatter what the treatment, there's always the possibility for differing outcomes. However, there is a process for evaluating a potential treatment for validity. You figure out its effectiveness, how it works, why it works, under what conditions it should be used, and in general how many people will benefit.
Sure, there will always be outliers in your data - people that have remarkable improvement when they really shouldn't at all, and people who have a bad outcome despite the fact that all signs pointed otherwise. However, these are small, end points of your data set. The problem I have with the energy diagnostics I've seen is that there IS no data set at all!
What really concerns me is that you say these tests cannot be studied the "Same way", which to my understanding means through legitamate scientific inquiry. Why is this? The great thing about the scientific method is that it can be applied in so many ways to so many different problems, that there has to be a way to apply it to this, should it be a legitimate diagnostic or treatment?
I won't pretend to know the methodology of these tests completely, but couldn't there be defined investigations with control groups, double blind studies, limitations of variables and more? For instance, having people with many illnesses that have been verified by other diagnostics (ie blood tests etc) presented to these machines or practitioners, and see how often they can identify correctly, with no other information. If it turns out that an extremely high percentage of the time there are correct diagnoses with very limited false positives or negatives, there could be something to it. However, as I said above I've not seen any data to show this.
We simply can't make excuses that "X can't be tested for its effectiveness" and then have people relying on X for important medical information and paying tons of money to do so. We need clear information, understanding, and confirmations from other sources.
@ Truthfinder - Yes, much like in any practitioner's office, I filled out paperwork about my reason for visit (This individual rented space in a LLMD's office complex, but is not under his guidance. As a courtesy, I decided to visit and give this a try after it was suggested to me ) As with many LLMDs and alternative practitioners, the paperwork was extensive and had me listing everything from my diagnosed illnesses to psychological-sounding questions and diet questions.
The testing itself was of the ART "muscle testing" variety, where the practitioner grips the patient in certain areas, the patient is given items, usually medicine and supplements complete in their plastic bottles no less, and are told to state outloud a statement of intention such as "Is what I hold in my hand good for my body" and then attempt to push down on the practitioner's arm. If you can do so, its a "Yes". If you can't, its a "No". There was also a portion where patients write true and false statements on scraps of paper, fold them up so they can't see, and then perform the same sort of test.
There was also some sort of portable machine hookup that had several electrodes attached to the body in a separate test, where there was no attempting to push down anyone's arm, but simply the practitioner asking questions, laying hands on the patient, and taking readings from the machine. I should also mention that questions regarding the methodology before the test were met with curt answers, and during the test were met with frustration. This was a reason I didn't get too much data on say, the exact make and model of the machine, what it did, and the reasons behind the interpretations. At the end the data as I said before, wasn't conclusive and there were many times when it out and out contradicted itself.
In reference to the woman who came to see me after her experience with electro-diagnostics, it could very well be true that she saw someone who quite frankly, didn't know what they were doing. I've also visited with several other practices that used electro-diagnostics in my own search for answers and they too were no more helpful nor able to be identified properly, so this seems to be a systemic issue. The problem is there seem to be very few controls on what someone who is "good enough" happens to be - in fact, it seems when people have anecdotal success, they feel the practitioner is "good". This is natural, but it doesn't validate the practitioner nor their methodology.
The problem is I can't see any verifiable controls in either practitioner skill OR methodology. See, if I meet with an orthopedic doctor for a broken bone he likely has an array of treatments (setting the bone, immobilization via cast while healing) that have been proven valid, AND he knows which to use when. Now, if said orthopod uses a cast without realigning the bone in a compound fracture, he quite bluntly, screwed up. However, that doesn't mean that casts are bad - they've been proven effective. There is a valid, proven standard of care and protocol that can be compared to. With these electrodiagnostics, there is neither a standard of care, nor proven methodology! This compounds the problem immensely, especially when astronomical fees are charged!
I'm going to read through Brussels link in the morning just for my own edification. Some people may think that I am on "the other side" against any sort of "alternative" therapy. This is untrue. I simply want to see the valid "alternative" therapies moved from "alternative" into the conventional toolbox, accessible to all who can benefit from them.
For instance, herbal medicine and acupuncture. Both of these fields used to be seen as bunk quackery, but then science showed that in certain circumstances they had certain effects - it isn't difficult to illustrate when you place a needle into X nerve/muscle location, Y happens. Likewise, its easy to investigate if Cat's Claw bark has chemical properties that helps create natural killer cells. If anyone doubts the usefulness and/or of naturally occurring herbal compounds they need only look to the cannibis and poppy plant .
Today, these treatment are in many cases covered by insurance (acupuncture, anyhow. Since most herbs are considered food and not drugs, they're not able to be covered by insurances). I should also note that SOME people aren't too happy about this - The kind of person that charges $500 per session for their "secret" alternative medicine knowledge has BIG money to lose if their treatment goes "conventional" and every family MD is prescribing it, and it is given a CPT code that pays absolute crap. This is something to consider when so many people do not wish for or claim their treatments cannot be given trials or whatnot..
@Massman's last question -
Suffice it to say, chemical energy is one type of energy, and at different times energy is in different forms which also means there are different "Rules" to be followed. That is the most concise explanation I can think of. I will say however that there is a lot of energy medicine predicated on the belief that energy in certain places and forms acts the same way EVERYWHERE, which is where a lot of the explanation thereof falls apart. I'm not saying that all energy medicine is in error, but there's a lot of misunderstanding out there, and a lot of unproven claims.
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Brussels
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Nancy, yes, I learned the basics of ART, basics of Psycho-kinesiolgy, and MFT: all 3 'techniques' are interconnected.
While I find they are not the answers for everything (a lot depend on the practioner too), they are a great help for finding what to treat, in which order, etc.
Glad you liked the article. I think it does ilustrate how SMALL is the energetic testing component and what is the most important thing is the method.
Mercola himself is an avid searcher of alternative healing methods and he also fell in love with ART. I'm still to see some other method that is superior to ART in finding solutions / causes.
The Polarization Filter is one of the most useful instrument he uses. It helps us seeing things that other energy testing methods have no idea about and help us seeing what comes first in priority.
His multiple testing of each organ (organ, intracelular, extracelular and stress) in two times (one with pol filter one without) make that each organ is tested at least 8 times!! Most energy tests will only test once for each organ, and they may miss important problems.
I'm sure it is not a final answer for all health problems as the method has evolved continue to change, but it is nevertheless an amazing method. ------
Blackstone: did the guy open your regulation before the test?
Most of lyme sufferers have their regulation close. When that happens, answers will not be reliable.
Some practioners call that grounding.
---- Tracy, I was talking about the VEGA, EAV, all these electrodermal tests.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote: Blackstone: did the guy open your regulation before the test?
Most of lyme sufferers have their regulation close. When that happens, answers will not be reliable.
Some practitioners call that grounding.
Can you please explain what all this means....very interesting.
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lymie_in_md
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In energy diagnostics there is a device called a lie detector test. It is well accepted method for getting the truth from someone. It is based just like ART, on the ANS or autonomic nervous system.
My point is fundamental, this device can get's its information the ANS. What the ANS does is everything to facilitate all body processes. So using a lie detector or ART is essentially the same thing. ART though is the skill of the practioner to evaluate the overall body condition and what to employ first based on skilled assessment.
ART is used to talk to the ANS just like a lie detector. However a lie detector is far more precise in someways and in most ways not. As a sensor the human body or life organisms are second to none. The sensors we all possess is at the sub particle level. A lie detector is based on rigidly defined parameters based on electrical resistance.
I believe when I can put a substance near my body and I can feel a reaction. As I've increased my sensitivity over time, substances resonate greater. I believe I can channel into my sensors to say take this don't take that. Similar to a lie detector shows how muscle changes occur during questioning, the conscious can lie but the ANS can't.
So we have two sides of our being, the conscious and the ANS. Creating tests utilizing the ANS is the idea of energy medicine. What the russians learned is the ANS also communicates based on radio waves and gave rise to radionics and biofeedback devices. Instead of tracking resistance electronically we know base it on a trigger and capture. I trigger a question to the ANS and capture the radio waves. Based on the pattern returned, you can conclude an answer. The russians for the cosmonaut program created a highly sophisticated biofeedback device and software called the oberon.
The russians invested millions into the oberon. I imagine their scientists saw great promise in it.
I'm not sure of how accurate these devices are. I am sure for myself, my own ability to determine what to take or what not to take, because of the concepts of ART, the ANS, or biofeedback by simply asking questions to my body. It has educated me beyond any care I could get from any practioner. Because I don't need to schedule an appointment.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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seekhelp
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Bob, but with a lie detector, YOU know if you're correct or not. Of course, your ANS will go haywire. If one were put in a room with a hungry tiger, we'd assume we'd be mauled and react, right?
With unknown pills, capsules, verbal words, etc. how would we know? If I understand correctly, what a person may think is good for them may be their worst enemy.
it's all so odd.
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Brussels
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Nancy, the first thing an ART practioner does is to open someone's regulation. It seems that a non good functioning ANS will not give coherent answers as with a functioning ANS.
Today, dr. K. explains that a bit different though (since the Pol filter entered the picture), he explains that in terms of coherence of photon field. Once the field is coherent, it will give coherent answers. If the field is distorted, it can give good answers sometimes, other times it won't.
That's is why I think lie dectectors can't work all the time, nor all muscle tests work all the time, or electrodermal readings like VEGA either (in my opinion).
So the first thing to do in an appointment is checking this photon field coherence. Some practioners before called that grouding. Many practioners in the past usually said that if you are not grounded, the tests won't work well.
It was difficult to find a method to make someone grounded, specially people that were severely sick. Only taking the shoes off and walking directly on the earth, or getting all metalic objects off, or any artificial objects off, or putting some stones on the person, etc sometimes don't work to 'ground' someone. Dr. K. calls that to 'open someone's regulation'.
It sounds fake, I know, and an excuse for such energetic tests not to work. But believe me, it is not. I helped quite a lot of people getting their regulation open.
And what he explains is something not as black and white as one may think. It is in shades. There's a point where most energetic tests start to work in a coherent way.
Example: a person's regulation is close for many reasons (almost never a single reason): he may use the wrong shoes (too much isolation from the ground), or may be wearing these shirts with tags on the neck, or may be having a strong infection, or suffering from a digestive problem, or wearing too many metals, be too long exposed to EMRs from his computer or cell phone, be eating too many allergenic foods etc etc.
All these contribute to close one's regulation, meaning, the ANS gets 'disturbed'. Sometimes, you put a remedy near the person that kills the infection, and the ANS opens (even before ingestion), or you ask the person to take all metalic objects off and he opens. Sometimes a person requires to do a sequence of things to get it open. And so on.
dr. K. has a technique to measure an open regulation in two levels. One is the simple technique one learns in the first courses. The other checks to see if the person's regulation is very well indeed (it shows another level of opening).
When one uses muscle tests or the biotensor, one will see that the answers vary in tones. Either you can have a weak arm but in different levels (like very weak, middle weak, only a bit weak) for example, or a strong arm (very strong, middle strong or only mildly strong). Same for biotensor, it can swing in different ways,not only a yes and no answer.
These in between answers do have meanings! A practioner with some experience knows how to tune the EXACT amount of drops of a remedy just by this intensity of response. It is not a YES and NO only question.
Think about magnesium. Lyme and candida deplete us from magnesium. There 's a point when our magnesium deposits start to be deficient. But there is a lot of variation in between being fully charged with magnesium, to 70% charged, then 50% charged, then 30% charged to 10% charged.
Each practioner will not get same responses, specially if the client has about 60-40% of magnesium reserves (just an example). One guy will say: client is depleted of Mg. He needs to supplement.
The other practioner will say: the client still has Mg enough. No need to supplement. In the next days, though, when his level fall to 30-20%, most of practioners will recommend Mg though.
I also see that I get positive answers for some things while other practioners get a negative. Are they right and I am wrong? For certain things, there's no right and wrong, a bit like the magnesium story above. It depends on the sensitivity.
---
Seek, as for wanting to eat something we don't need and that in fact do harm to us, I guess once I read something like that, that is pretty right:
Anything that is good for you is never addictive (spelling?). You never get addiction to something that is truly good for you. Anything else you feel you crave and need on a daily base forever (no substitute for it), it is almost certain bad for you.
I think of the addiction to banana an autistic boy had and that awful cravings of banana. Once the banana was cut from his diet, the boy got much better (even though not cured).
As for the ANS and our minds. They interact, indeed, but surprisingly, many of the things we may think are good to us will get our energetic tests saying 'bad'.
If you think, this is good for me, and then do the test, you'll probably get it as good for you. But if you say before the test, I don't know if this is truly good for me, then make the test, you'll get surprisingly results.
Like all of us, we think we want to get better, right?
Wrong!!!
I thought I wanted to get better. When I ask my body, do I want to get better? The answer was 'no'. I wanted to be sick (for whatever reasons that were not 'reasonable'). But until that moment, my brain didn't know about it.
It's a bit like when someone that loves you tell you a truth that hurts, but that you know it comes for good.
I gotta go now!
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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sparkle7
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Interesting. Thanks for the thoughtful responses.
I was just wondering - how can anyone be truly open in regulation?
For example - if a practitioner is asking the questions & getting responses via some method (applied kineseology, etc.) - won't their subconscious thoughts come into play in the equation?
If they know they will make alot of money on a certain variety of supplements - won't they influence the result? Or if they have a particular leaning towards a specific concept, won't it also influence the result?
For example, if the practitioner is allergic to oranges - won't they potentially get a negative result for the patient in regards to a question "Are oranges are good for the patient"? Even if it's purely subconscious...?
I don't think anyone can be completely unbiased. Is open regulation only a physical thing or does it apply to mental states? The practitioner may have a headache, be thinking about something unrelated to the patient, have various biases, have a pain in their foot, etc.
I guess this is why people may feel computers are less biased - but do they even work? Some of these tests are influenced by the tester's mental state towards the device or concept - especially in PSI studies...
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lymie_in_md
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ART isn't perfect because of the practioner or environmental factors possibly time of day. Same as blood tests, one doctor will read the results of a blood test differently then another. LLMD versus IDSA doctor. Environmental factors in taking a blood test, toooooo many to mention.
We, or society as a whole, believe lie detectors are in the range of 90%+ accurate, hypothetically. If I tested someone for 10 supplements 9 were accurate one was false. And I know the one which was false is false then all are false. That is how we are conditioned. It either works completely or not at all. When I use the biotensor, I don't expect it to be perfect. I expect it to help guide my treatment choices better then just guessing.
Lymies spend a lot of energy in second guessing treatment options and second guessing leads to negative connotations. I suspect even that complicates getting well. I base this on the many post i've read here, questioning doctors what to do, i'm confused, leading to despair.
I use a biotensor and I trust it, and it always tests positively for bananas, so I know it works, I like bananas. Plus, you can get a biotensor for 20 dollars, and there is no wait to test. Immediate answers!
If i go to get an EDS done now, it is to confirm what I think I already know. It may not be perfect, it may lead me to a new thought as to where I am.
Seek, it must confound you to see those that are doing energy oriented medicine getting well. It certainly can't make sense, can it?
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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Thank you so much for your very thoughtful response. It makes sense to me now.
I now remember that the practitioner made sure my feet were on the ground, no supplements or antibiotics near by, and that there was good conductivity. She said my energy was strong, which is good considering all that our bodies endure with treatment.
In my search for EDS screening, I consulted with a very knowledgeable practitioner who uses both EDS and the SCIO. She opted to use the SCIO to test my protocol. Her results showed, the one antibiotic (Ceftin)and supplement (bromelain) that I knew I could never give up, tested negative. At the time, I was on Ceftin, and if I as much as missed one dose, immediately my knee would swell and was limping. I forgot to take the medication that morning, but took the dose right before our meeting. She refused to consider that in her analysis. I viewed the negative reading as knowing my body did not need Ceftin at that moment, because I had just taken some, resulting in a false negative. She said I shouldn't take either Ceftin or Bromelain. She just wanted to be right, so in this case, the practitioner, with all her knowledge was useless.
The more I read your post, the more important information I glean from your response. When I go for my follow-up, I am definitely going to go with this thought in mind. Now you really have me thinking....
quote: If you think, this is good for me, and then do the test, you'll probably get it as good for you. But if you say before the test, I don't know if this is truly good for me, then make the test, you'll get surprisingly results.
nancy
[ 01-26-2010, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: nspiker ]
Posts: 964 | From san diego | Registered: Oct 2009
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Bob and Selma - terrific explanations!
Massman, I know you really like Standard Process products - at least 3 local chiropractors use them here. Do you have any experience with or know anything about products made by Standard Enzyme Company of North America? This is what my EDS practitioner uses (primarily) and I have to say that the herbals seem to be excellent products and work well together (synergistic).
Wow, Selma - you've experienced a lot of different testing methods. I didn't realize that.
Well, I have to say that I'm VERY impressed with my latest computerized EDS testing and the protocol I started 9 days ago. BIG things are happening for me. I'll tell some about it. Sorry, it will be LONG, even if I leave a lot out. Bear with me or move on if not interested.
****************************** My latest CEDSA (computerized EDS) test indicated a number of malfunctions, but the priority items were a toxic liver and parasites in my transverse colon, and both organs were extremely sluggish. Also, I need to get some kind of mouth guard for my teeth at night.
To the best of my recollection, I never mentioned anything about my teeth to my practitioner. But as she was testing, she just asked me if I clench or grind my teeth at night. Well, I do. She had no way of knowing that.
I have other issues, too, but one thing this testing does is determine how many systems I can treat at once, and how much treatment my body can handle at one time. I think we sometimes fail to realize that we can seriously overburden the body by trying to treat too many things at once, or by treating problems too aggressively or in a less-than-ideal order.
Interestingly, parasites did not show up last time. This time, they showed up as a BIG problem. The products that tested well for me included 2 very strong anti-parasitic herbal combinations. My practitioner was very surprised because most people will need only one of them, but I needed both.
It's possible that I recently picked up these parasites, although I had no change in symptoms to indicate something new was going on since the last test. What is more likely is that I had to get the lower part of my colon working, along with my small intestine, thyroid, and adrenal (medulla) gland before my body could handle treatment for the parasite problem. And that's what my last EDS testing and protocol was all about (started last summer).
For at least 9 months, I've really been struggling with my bowel function. It's been worse than it's ever been, despite major diet changes, fibers, probiotics, laxatives to prevent a complete standstill, etc. The last protocol I was on based on EDS testing helped a lot at first, but then sort of quit working.
I realize now that I should have scheduled another full test much earlier than I did. (Warning - `too much information' alert:) One thing really strange about my elimination issues was that everything that came out of me for months had virtually NO odor. Very peculiar (at least for me).
Things were so bad, in late November, I went to my PCP and got a prescription for that GoLytely stuff that people drink before a colonoscopy to `clean out'. I was really afraid I was going to end up with an impacted bowel if I didn't get things moving. Long story short, the GoLytely clean-out didn't do anything for me, and a week later I was right back where I started.
Okay, back to the present protocol: I started with just the base products and didn't begin the 2 anti-parasitic products. My hope was to get better elimination going better before I attempted to kill parasites in there. I think dead bugs hanging around too long would be worse than live ones.
For 5 days on the products, nothing happened, nothing changed. I got very discouraged.
(Warning: More TMI coming.....)
On day 6, all h*ll broke loose! Literally. And every day since then. I have probably never been so cleaned out in my life, but it hasn't been like diarrhea. Just great quantities of STUFF. Everything FELT different, too. Like a dam had been removed somewhere. I don't know where I've been storing all this stuff, but my body was SO ready to get rid of it.
And rightfully so, because the odor of everything coming out of me now is so vile-smelling, I can hardly stand to be around me. My gas would clear a large room in nothing flat. Socially speaking, I'm not very good company right now. That's okay - it's worth it.
One of the first things I noticed was that my thinking was clearer, sharper somehow. I got to feel some semblance of the old me.
I started the anti-parasitics a couple of days ago, and yesterday I had a very bad day of pretty bad pain, indigestion, and bloating. I was pretty miserable and even missed taking some of my product. But this morning, I'm cleaned out again and feeling pretty good. (No, not seeing anything interesting in the toilet..... yet.)
I guess time will tell how well this all works out for me long term. But if getting cleaned out and little less brain fog is all I get out of this, it was worth every penny I spent so far. It sure is a lot cheaper than ending up in the ER with an impacted bowel. Been there, done that.
************************************
Sometimes I get a little envious of you folks who find out from their practitioners if you have this or that type of specific infection, etc. Especially if it corresponds to some lab tests you had. I won't get any of that from my practitioner.
But maybe that's not such a bad thing. For instance, if I went in there with an expectation that Lyme was my primary problem (based on lab results or a clinical diagnosis) and `infection' didn't show up on the testing, I might begin to doubt the whole process at the start. Inserting my personal expectations into the mix is likely to cause trouble.
I could NEVER have figured out any of this on my own - what all was wrong, what to treat first, what to take for it that wouldn't mess up something else. I needed help.
Those who have developed personal skills to determine what they need at any given time are way ahead of the game. And I commend them for putting forth the effort to find what works for them.
Maybe one or more `infections' will show up for me down the road. I'm not concerned about it either way. My goal is for my body to function better, and I really don't care about HOW that is accomplished, or in what order.
If you stayed with me through all this, God bless ya. And hope my experience helped some folks.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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lymie_in_md
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posted
Tracy -- Its great when you achieve progress, I guess in this case a milestone in your treatment.
Nancy -- when people go to get tested they have to free there minds of all thoughts or biases. If you don't, you get slanted results.
If I take my biotensor put it in my hand and consciously imagine yes it will be yes, if I change to NO it will be no. If you look at my hand it isn't moving, the biotensor will sway depending on the intensity of the yes and no. The ring of the tensor will sway about 12 inches with enough intensity. I could go further but I'm afraid I would break it.
I don't like testing other folks, because I don't trust their intentions. So I now try to avoid it. I always suggest they find their own ability to test.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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massman
Unregistered
posted
Truthfinder - no don't know much about the SEC - sounds like you are doing better and FEELING better too ! Keep smokin
Blackstone - thanks for the extended reply. Lots of LOL on the herbs + acupuncture = quackery. Some drugs are basesd on herbs, drug companies are now in the Amazon exploring. My mentors mentor was down there 45 years ago.
And acupuncture ? Yeeaaah those Chinese knew nothing + learned nothing in 4,000 years ! Musta been like that EDS scam that is done today. "Got a problem ? Let me do an evaluation + treatment + sell you lots of high priced HERBS !"
Bob - thanks for all your posts + experience. Very appreciative.
Others - regulation does need to be open. There are stressorsthat can + do effect it. And you can influence it with your thoughts + attitude. I was taught to "keep your mind as blank as possible" by someone who studied a lot with Dr. K.
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
Everything is very individualized. I don't think Blackstone or most of the people posting here are anti- Chinese medicine, EDS, medical dowsing, alternative medicine, herbs, etc.
Many Chinese techniques were from 1000s of years ago. We have new conditions that require more modern thinking. 1000s of years ago, the herbalists gave the emperor mercury & told him it will make him immortal - they were wrong... Not everything that's ancient or from a tribe in the Amazon is accurate.
My doctor is a straight MD - no woo-woo stuff & he's been more accurate than any other practitioner I've seen. He's from Italy & he spends usually an hour just listening to me. He doesn't even tell me to get alot of lab tests, etc.
Some "alternative" practitioners wanted to sell me tons of IVs, expensive supplements, etc. that I really didn't need. I know - I've been to some of the "famous" ones...
So, that why I am skeptical. I do my own dowsing & it's pretty good. I just find it amusing when people use fancy terms like "open regulation" for something like - try to clear your mind & be unbiased.
I was dowsing for many years & I never learned those terms...
Since this illness has caused me to go broke - I try to simplify things. I have found that you can get really good results with very little money.
I take things apart, cross-reference everything, & I like to think for myself. If that makes people uncomfortable or provokes ridicule - so be it.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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massman
Unregistered
posted
Well, wise one, why don't you become a lyme treater and you will be rich ! For sure !
You can really do it cheaply + easily, do it now for the sake of those here having a tough time
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@Brussels - In my case the practitioner had me remove my shoes and any metal and electronics (belt buckle, mobile phone), but that was about it. There was no explanation given as to why, or its effectiveness. Had I known more about the machine used, I may have been able to hypothesize if metal (ie the metals I was wearing, which were minimal) would have affected the results or not, and I assumed I was just taking my shoes off for the sake of politeness (ie. I was going to have my feet up on an exam table more or less, as I reclined during the machine portion).
@ Lie Detectors - I believe that many people have some misconceptions about them. They are some of the easiest things to "fake out" or beat around, to the point that they are no longer admissible for evidence in court cases in many jurisdictions. If you are nervous or in pain coming in, your baseline is going to be so different that the test can be deemed near useless. @Massman - Sometimes its hard to figure out sarcasm on the internet, but I just wanted to confirm that I wasn't putting down acupuncture or herbal medicine, in fact I was saying that those two once "alternative" treatments have now entered the mainstream because they've passed the same kinds of evaluation expected of the "conventional".
And yes, Sparkle's story isn't unique. There are many people selling alternative remedies that cost just as much as many man-made pharmaceuticals, and expecting huge amounts of money for unproven treatments. It is a very, very lucrative business. This isn't to suggest all physicians or practitioners are to blame, but it seems that a fairly large contingent can't resist the lure of profit. The worst part is, since there's no standard of care and not enough data on what is the RIGHT way, its sometimes hard to tell who and what is valid. Thus, why we need more rigid evaluation.
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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Truthfinder
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Member # 8512
posted
Blackstone, I meant to say thanks to you for your reply. I confess that I'm still not real clear on how you `tested' the practitioner/ method using bogus data. But don't worry about it. Apparently, I'm the only one confused here.
Thanks for the encouragement, Bob and Massman.
Selma, it's interesting that you brought up the desire to get well/better. I do believe this is a major subconscious component, and it seems to take many, many forms. Some people get so beat down by ill health that they don't think they can face the world as a healthy person any longer. So, it becomes a belief that they are incapable of functioning as a healthy person, which can translate into feeling doomed. And that's just one example of the turns the mind can take.
On a conscious level we think one thing, and on another level we believe the opposite.
No wonder there are so many psychologists and shrinks in the world.
Many new unorthodox methods and medicines address the mental/emotional `states' right along with the physicals. To me, that's what true `holistic' medicine is all about (as I mentioned earlier).
Sparkle, you are right - there is much that people can do on their own with limited funds to get well or achieve greater health. That's a wonderful thing, and hopefully we'll all be mindful of any attempts by state or federal governments to limit our freedom to do so. I'm glad to hear that your dowsing is working for you.
In my case, I decided I needed help. So, I bit the bullet and spent the $$, with no guarantee that it would help one bit. All I had was a `testimonial' from a very satisfied prior client. And it took me a long time to make the decision.
One thing we have to remember any time we visit a practitioner, whether orthodox or `alternative': Somehow, they have to pay for their training and/or equipment. If they can't, then they're out of business.
Even in the alternative world, training can be lengthy and expensive, and like orthodox practice, education is an ongoing process in order to keep up with new research and technologies. Purchasing new equipment and software are also necessary periodically.
For example, eight years ago, some of these `testing machines' from Germany had a price tag of over $40,000. An ND spends a minimum of 4 years full time in college. To get a basic homeopathic `certification' in Colorado takes 2 years at a cost of over $10,000 a year, and that's just basic course consisting of weekend classes! Much more training is necessary after that to become a proficient homeopath.
When I see my EDS practitioner working pretty hard for 2-3 hours `testing' me and any products I drag in with me, and all the equipment she has hooked up, and the databases of homeopathics and products she has had to pay for on her computer, the charge of about $50-60 an hour seems pretty reasonable. And she practices in a very high-rent resort town.
Sure, she makes money on all those supplements, but if I could anticipate what I needed, she would have no objection to using any products that tested well for me. Many products I've chosen for myself have tested very well.
Anyway, cost is relative to what you receive for your investment, IMHO.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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daisyrlb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 15686
posted
Last night I read this thread and got caught up. Fascinating though!
Tracy, Nice how you respond to each person like that. You are so right about that mindset thing. My husband (gwb) is going through that now.
He's been sick for so long (15 years) that now that he is finally getting better his mind has to catch up with his body.
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
massman - re: Well, wise one, why don't you become a lyme treater and you will be rich ! For sure !
Is this really necessary?
-
Anyway, I try to do the best I can with what I have available.
I agree that it's good to have a second or alternate opinion from a doctor or practitioner that can confirm if you are going in the right direction or if you need to rethink things.
It's easy to get bogged down with all of the supplements, drugs & stuff we've been taking. There are a bewildering amount to products available as well as treatments, detoxes, saunas, exercise...
It's really hard to figure it all out. Some things may just be common sense but we can't see it since we may be stuck in a subjective mindset. If a practitioner who you may believe in says to stop all antibiotics & detox your system - to me it just seems like common sense.
Some people think that if they take enough abx over years of time they will be well. I don't know how some people can tell the difference between Lyme or the side effects of the abx after a while.
The same could be true of someone taking alot of supplements. I'm not picking on people doing an allopathic approach.
So, if they go see a ND & they say stop everything you're taking & do something different - seems like common sense that they may feel better.
It seems that sometimes people just need a push to try something different. I don't know if it's the people or the devices that are sensitive that can somehow pick this up.
These things are hard to prove. I guess this is what drives us all so crazy about Lyme. There are so many variables... & so many unreliables...
We can easily go broke trying all the options along the way & still not be well.
To go along with Blackstone - yes, I have heard that people can manipulate lie detectors. I don't think it's very difficult. People also can change their heart rate, etc. when they go to see a doctor just due to the stress of having an office visit....
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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massman
Unregistered
posted
"Is this really necessary?"
I would say yes if what you do can help some people. Really.
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I try to offer advice so people can learn to dowse for themselves. It's better than me dowsing for someone unless they are stuck & need help or a second opinion. It's really not hard. I've posted it here before.
There's plenty of websites for people to learn how to dowse. You can also get books on it on the internet or at the library. I used a silver pendant someone gave me on a cotton button thread & it works quite well. You don't have to spend alot of money on a fancy BioTensor...
I got a bobber from this man who makes them. If you want the info - you can PM me. I like the bobber for medical questions. The pendulum is for other questions (in my opinion).
It just takes a bit of practice...
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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massman
Unregistered
posted
Am familiar with dowsing + have done some. Works pretty good for me.
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I have probably never been so cleaned out in my life, but it hasn't been like diarrhea. Just great quantities of STUFF. Everything FELT different, too. Like a dam had been removed somewhere. I don't know where I've been storing all this stuff, but my body was SO ready to get rid of it. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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