posted
Here are the two major problems I noticed reading this that should've been red flags
"When I put cryptolepsis on the tray, it showed up helping my boys' babesia."
What is this tray made of? Without putting the cryptolepsis in a spectrometer or in some way gathering information from the substance on the tray the machine has no idea what it is or what to do with it.. it's just impossible. It's a lot like taking the CPU from your computer and sitting a Windows disk on top of it and expecting it to install.
"When we put new things they had not taken such as Flagyl on the tray, it showed it worked on lyme for one child and bart for the other. "
This should be the other big red flag we should all notice because Flagyl does not kill anything aerobic at all ever..never. It's the very nature of how flagyl works, only anaerobic bacteria will take it up into their systems DNA.
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sparkle7
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I'm not really a skeptic. I'm sort of more of a "devil's advocate" or cynic... I'm actually on the side that thinks this stuff works.
The theories are great but I'm not sure the current technology actual can apply what the discoveries in biophotons, quantum theory are about. It very easy for "practitioner" to make money by prescribing things that don't have a huge effect one way or the other.
They tell someone they have exposure to XYZ things & sell them some expensive herbal supplements that are supposed to adjust XYZ things. Then, repeat the cycle every few weeks & rake in the bucks.
It probably makes it alot easier for the practitioner to do this as opposed to studying the patient & their symptoms, records etc. & making a decision for treatment based on knowledge, observation, & intuition.
When a computer prints out a bunch of observations, it gives it some type of legitimacy. I never felt it should be perfect but it has it's limitations.
Some people feel the Emoto theories are not valid. I love the idea but I'm not convinced that it's really based on some kind of actual effect.
Why is western classical music supposedly "better" than other forms of music for making symmetrical ice crystals? I find that kind of odd.
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tick battler
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The tray was metal, I think. I know it seems very hard to believe that it can work, but its readings were consistent with my hunches about what has been working on my children. Maybe someone who understands it better can explain how it could work.
I agree the Flagyl thing is a red flag, as I have not heard that it can hit bart. Perhaps that reading was an error, who knows. But the Flagyl is certainly causing a herx in my child, whether it's lyme or bart. My son hasn't herxed or improved in 6 months on his other meds, which were shown to not be effective through this machine.
I am not putting all of my faith in this machine, but I am going to use it to see if it confirms my hunches, as I think there are enough intelligent people out there who believe that it can work in the right hands. (E.g., Dr. Cowden, Dr. H in NY).
tickbattler
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massman
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"They tell someone they have exposure to XYZ things & sell them some expensive herbal supplements that are supposed to adjust XYZ things. Then, repeat the cycle every few weeks & rake in the bucks."
Yup. This is exactly what all practitioners do ! They are all exactly the same
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daisyrlb
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Bob, thanks for the free therapy. "Laughter does good like medicine" (according to my plumb line).
sparkle7, regarding your question about western classical music...I encourage you to read this. You may get your answer.
sparkle7
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Yes you are correct, massman. They are all the same. That's why I decided to do my own research & not go to doctors or practitioners as often.
daisy - I read the info about Emoto. It's a beautiful idea. I even tried putting words on water bottles myself. I don't know what it actually accomplishes, though.
I thought it was odd that heavy metal music produced a "bad" result. Sometimes cathartic or dissonant things can be of use in the world.
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daisyrlb
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sparkle7, The research Emoto did, those pictures and results--amazing.
What I got out of it--our bodies are 70% water (give or take). What kind of an effect do our words or other people's words have on us and others?
More than I ever imagined!
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sparkle7
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Yes - that's why we got rid of the TV...
I guess I don't like the idea of putting a value judgement on one type of music versus another. I think the results may be somehow tainted. To some people, listening to heavy metal may be cathartic - which is good. I guess that's my issue with these crystals...
I also read somewhere that the pictures of the water crystals were retouched & that it's a fake. I don't know if it's true.
It's hard to say how intention effects the world. There are a number of writers & scientists who explore this idea.
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daisyrlb
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sparkle7, You got rid of your TV? Cool.
I see what you mean about the music--I didn't even think of that.
It was such a fascinating experiment to me, that I decided not to let the researchers' interpretation influence me. I was more reading it like--is there some universal principle here?
seekhelp
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Unfortunately, this is exactly what I've experienced in real life Massman. There's no talk about an endpoint. My challenge will always be give the practicioner NOTHING to work off of and see just how good he/she really is.
quote:Originally posted by massman: "They tell someone they have exposure to XYZ things & sell them some expensive herbal supplements that are supposed to adjust XYZ things. Then, repeat the cycle every few weeks & rake in the bucks."
Yup. This is exactly what all practitioners do ! They are all exactly the same
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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massman
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"There's no talk about an endpoint. My challenge will always be give the practicioner NOTHING to work off of and see just how good he/she really is."
Gee...I was taught that 85% of diagnoses could be made by a good thorough history. I think it was Dr. S that taught that.
Did you miss class that day ?
Here we have one of the toughest diseases to diagnose + treat well and you give the doc nothing ?
Might this be a reason why so many self diagnose, self treat + then complain of poor results ? Feel I know the answer to that already.
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sparkle7
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massman - do you actually have Lyme or a co-infection or are you trying to raise everyone's danders here? Do you have any of your own experience to share?
It's just that you have this attitude that you have all the answers... I don't have anything against you but we don't like it when people promote products here. That's the only issue I had with some of your posts in the past.
We're all sharing our experience. Do you have something helpful to add?
Not everyone here has the same opinion. That what's cool about Lymenet. We try to learn from each other what works for us or what doesn't.
In some cases, maybe it's good not to bias the person doing a EDT...? That's a valid approach. It's not what I would do but I can see how it would be valid.
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seekhelp
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Let's agree to disagree to an extent Massman. All I speak from is personal experience. That being whatever the alternative practicioner was 'told' to be the suspected problem 100% of the time was 'confirmed' to be so. Sorry, but I don't believe in perfection.
Does this mean it's all BS? NO. I just don't buy into it all. Is that so bad?
Sparkle7, yes I recall Massman stating many times he has Lyme, got ill in 1991 and still struggles hence treating w/Innovita products.
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massman
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Lyme + Babs.
As MT/DC I studied techniques till I found a great one that worked. RESULTS were and what counted. Resolve 14 migraines a year to 1 per year.
With hormone problems I diligently SEARCHED till I found things that worked well. Studied with someone Dr. K taught. This Dr. U turned me on to what I now recommend.
Again got good results and was impressed.
"It's just that you have this attitude that you have all the answers... I don't have anything against you but we don't like it when people promote products here. That's the only issue I had with some of your posts in the past."
I do not have all the answers, just some experience treating hundreds of patients with "alternative" techniques and many thousands of patients with chiro techs.
If you decide to say that is "promoting products" that is up to you.
I am suggesting products that IME generally produce good to excellent results. No compensation to me in any way shape or form.
So I get pounded as a salesman when the only trying to help others with this nasty strange disease ? Oh well....
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sparkle7
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I sorry if I sounded like I was pounding you, massman. It's just that you never got back to me when I asked you if you were selling products...
I assumed that since you didn't - that you were... Maybe you can be more specific about your personal protocol? That way it won't be construed as "giving advice" (as a practitioner), trying to get patients, or selling things.
There have been people on this message board who made money from people here in an unscrupulous manner... It's not that far fetched. I just don't have patience for that sort of thing.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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massman
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Will reply tomorrow - nighty nite time now
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massman
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I am then evil times 2.
Making recommendations and NOT making $$$ off of it. I recommend things that I have experience using with patients and for myself.
Assumptions here that that makes me a money grubber ?
Life in an always paranoid world. LOL as anyone can say anything on the net. Some here have posted they have read a book + when I ask for a 5 sentence review to prove it they get annoyed ?
Using Inno-Vita for current challenges due to lyme. Just started 3rd bottle of Lepterra.
Supported kidneys, spleen, for past 2 months. Supported liver with detox for 3 months. Supported pituitary, thyroid for 2 months. Supported hypothalamus for last week.
Babs support about 10 days (first 24 hours urine moderately red, small specks in it. (visual analysis in bottle)
Tendency to recurring gout significantly reduced.
Muscle pain + spasms (mostly in extensors) reduced 80%. Low back pain reduced 80 to 90%
Joint swelling significantly reduced
Brain fog reduced - speech + comprehension improving.
Sleep improving (had been poor since 2001 stroke)
Anger + frustration usually significantly reduced.
If interested you can search for more specific info at the Inno-Vita site.
and finally a ?
What happened in your life to make you so pessimistic ? Are we allowed to talk about emotional factors here ?
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lymie_in_md
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Massman I'm rooting for you to get well. I also am rooting for Sparkle to get well, as well as all those who have lyme. I'm also rooting for greater compassion and respect for each other when we post.
As far as Pessimism, it starts when we spend lots of money without too much benefit, and when money is scarce. A simple definition!
I've seen pessimism grow to despair in the lyme support group I participate. To me, that is a great reason to get well.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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massman
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Thanks Bob. Do you feel many do not search diligently when they look for a lyme literate practitioner ?
And do people assume that if a good bit of money is spent then results should come pretty quickly ?
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sparkle7
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massman - for someone who has treated alot of patients, you don't really know about how intensely some of us have been suffering...
Just read any of the numerous posts here. People are really screaming out for help. Someone here told me they spent $250,000 trying to get well & they are still ailing.
I've read about people going through divorces, bankruptcy, losing their homes, jobs - everything - in a nutshell... due to Lyme & the co-infections. Not to mention the loss of health & pain & suffering.
I've seen people here posting about being ready to try suicide more than once.
It's not that we are stupid, ignorant, lacking experience, education, have not tried or are trying numerous things - alternative & allopathic. Many of the so-called professionals - alternative & allopathic have failed us.
One doctor I was looking into charges $7000 for the first visit...
I've been studying this for 14 years. I think it's a bit crass to imply that we are looking for a quick fix & we haven't searched thoroughly enough for a knowledgeable practitioner...
By nature - I'm not a pessimist. If I was, I would have given up long ago. I'm just very critical of things that are suggested to "cure" Lyme, Fibromyalgia, CFS, co-infections, etc. I've tried 100's of things that didn't work for me.
I probably would have been better off going to a spa in Hawaii for a couple of weeks than on what I have spent on stuff that did not work.
I'm glad you found the InnoVita line helpful. I tried it & didn't find any improvement. I did actually give it a good try. They are quite expensive & I need to consult with someone to get them - so, I have to pay an extra fee to someone to order them for me.
Some of us feel comfortable taking matters into our own hands. I would prefer to order the bulk herbs & search out the less expensive forms of supplements.
It really comes down to which items are more cost effective for our dollars & which items will really target the problems we may have. Some people do well on something as inexpensive as salt & vitamin C.
It's always nice to support the liver, spleen or thymus (etc.) but if we are fighting a specific pathogen - it's not going to get to the root of the problem.
Taking black cohosh is not going to cure syphilis... Taking vitamin C will not cure malaria... but a handful of pumpkin seeds may help get rid of intestinal parasites along with some black, green walnut hulls, cloves & wormwood.
When you say you supported your liver with a detox - what exactly does that mean? It's kind of vague. There are many forms of detox & cleanses for the liver...
Some people here would like to know so that they can see if it's something they can learn about or try. This is what I mean by "sharing" information.
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massman
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Dr. K apparently feels that poor detox capability leads to most symptoms. I pretty much agree.
For my liver I have used Ls + ACX from Systemic and Livergy + Tox-ex from Inno-Vita.
Why should I believe people are diligently searching when short books I have suggested are repeatedly ignored ? It was like I was insulting people by asking them to read a real book or two ?
You are assuming that I know little about how people feel. How do you know what my experiences have been ?
You tried Inno-Vita and no results ? Anybody can post anything on the net. How do we confirm that ?
And such interest ( satire alert) in understanding the difference between straight herbals + mixed herbals !
lymie_in_md
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We are human, many folks expect investment size with certain results. And to some extent that is true. But, if someone doesn't take full responsibility for there own disease, then they will not get a perfect result.
And, I don't believe most people research correctly, and assume western medicine had a better understanding of chronic issues then they do. Given the track record of western medicine, all these conditions without causes. I'd say are pretty dismal. So many, even myself have a great bit of unlearning, before we can find positive and effective treatment. Sometimes this is years before we can divorce ourselves from medicine at exists.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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massman
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Thanks Bob. Excellent points.
I have been "divorced" from traditional medicine for over 30 years right after my first chiropractic visit.
Western med is good for trauma + some infectious diseases but not really for anything chronic, IMO.
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gwb
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Very true. We are learning this at the Clinic I'm at in KS. Dr J gets "frustrated" (but not impatient) with me sometimes because my questions come from the "western medicine" mindset.
He's trying to teach me to "unlearn" what I've learned and to understand that there are other methods that can be far more effective than what we've been traditionally led to believe. His book Beating Lyme Disease explains all of this really well.
My wife (daisyrlb) posted a little bit about this on my thread "gwb clinic adventure".
lymie_in_md
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Sparkle -- I've gotten out into the fields to tincture my own extracts. One I've tinctured is both the echinacea root and separately the echinacea leafs. Both in mason jars and 50% alcohol. I'm also tincturing yarrow and teasel root. I love the idea of going into nature to get what I need. It is very cost effective. I have several, the best one I've made is blackhull walnut. It is a superb concoction. Another one I created was polk root. Several others to support liver and kidneys. I have enough of these for years.
It is much cheaper then supplementing. And in someways more effective and rewarding.
Next year, I'm interested in St. Johns Wort, Dandelion Root, some tree barks, it can go on and on.
I use them often in tea and water. They create there own flavour of distinction in whatever I make. I can add them to my kombucha with black cherry juice. Herbs have openned a much more pleasurable world for me.
As far as this topic, EDS works, its just not perfect. There is nothing perfect in this universe. In a short story I believe it was Nethaniel Hawthorne who had a character who had married a women who was perfect except for a mole. He determined to remove the mole at all costs to create perfection. And when he finally achieved this perfection, she died.
There are no perfect solutions only wise choices depending on your own resources.
What I would love to see someday from the lymie community. Is more of us working together to get each other well directly. Like sharing rife or LED machines and reducing costs so treatments can advance for the group, beyond the limitations put on LLMDs. Specialization in making herbal remedies, person A does echinacea and person B does poke root.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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sparkle7
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Interesting Bob...!
I'm looking into making my own capsules these days from bulk herbs.
massman - I'm not interested in picking a bone with you. If you like the InnoVita herbs - great. I just thought they were over priced & had too many ingredients for my liking.
Herbal synergies can be great & they have been used in Traditional Chinese Medicine for 1000s of years.
I like to know how the herbs are effecting me - so, I'd prefer to use smaller combinations or single herbs so I can adjust the dosage when necessary. I take many herbs in a day but they are in separate bottles.
In my case - I'm not recommending anyone to do as I do - I prefer using a medical dowsing instrument to figure out what I need to do. I don't really need the EDT. I didn't find it to be all that accurate.
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lymie_in_md
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I agree with Sparkle if you are comfortable with dowsing. Its just cheaper, however, i've often thought about getting an assessment sometime using radionics. I doubt I would use an EDS in the next round. That is open ended and not an immediate item on my list of things. Could be a year out.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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massman
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"too many ingredients for my liking."
The mixes are for synergism (work better when taken todether) than for liking.
"Herbal synergies can be great & they have been used in Traditional Chinese Medicine for 1000s of years."
Perhaps a bit, but not like Systemic + Inno-Vita that have had their bioenergetic frequencies measured for specific combinations to help increase efficiency and greatly reduce or eliminate side effects.
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I will look into this "latest generation" electrodiagnostic practice but nearly every sort of "energy medicine" diagnostic I've professionally discussed and personally tried has not worked for me. ART, "muscle testing" etc... have proven absolutely nothing positive for me.
I think some people, and some practitioners genuinely believe in them. However, I've seen a lot of issues with them. Does anyone remember that old "Crossing Over with John Edwards" show, where John attempted to contact the spirits of the deceased in the room with what seemed like amazing accuracy? He was really using a technique called "Cold Reading". There's plenty of information on the internet about how its done, so I won't bore anyone with the details, but suffice it to say it is a psychological "trick" of sorts. I get the feeling that lots of "energy testing" is something similar.
Sure, it was detected that I was for instance, chronically ill. Well, being that I was in an office where 99% of people who seek help there were chronically ill, this is no big surprise. I also noticed that both practitioner-based and machine based (practitioner interpreted, of course) tests varied a ton based on the pages and pages of paperwork I filled out beforehand.
When I filled it out for my known infections and symptoms, those things "came up" during the testing, sparking prescription for expensive herbal remedies and treatments for said issues. When I used totally fictitious diagnoses and symptoms, parameters illustrating those exact things come up instead, and NOTHING about my known illnesses.
In my experience, patients already tell these practitioners what they need to know to make "magical" diagnoses. If you come in saying you're tired and have X Y, and Z symptoms, then they'll pick out something that probably goes along with X, Y, and Z. There is always an expensive protocol for treatment (not covered by insurance, of course).
The other thing that frustrates me is that there's no guarantees that any therapies or diagnoses are in the least, accurate, and if they are wrong or don't work, it is somehow the patient's fault. I've had a woman come to me who was told, after spending $2000 on remedies, by one of these practitioners that because she was stressed and unhappy her negative energy stopped the "medicine" from working. When I suggested trying some Tindamax and other antibiotics instead, she actually started to have reactions and eventually positive changes, regardless of your "state of mind". Tindamax doesn't care if you're depressed. It doesn't care if you're angry or frustrated from being sick. It doesn't care if you don't "Believe". It just works against certain organisms that are vulnerable to it. It also has a well-defined scope and methodology of action, so you know where to apply it and where it won't help (ie. No use on viruses!). That, is medicine. Some of these other treatments? Not medicine.
I wholeheartedly believe there is a whole emerging field of medicine out there, that "all symptoms are caused by something", that "good enough" just isn't good enough, but these ideas are not at odds with Western medicine. I'm pragmatic when it comes to therapies I will try myself and those I recommend to patients - I don't care where it comes from, I'd like to /know/ how it works but that is secondary, as long as there is demonstrable proof that it works. The plural of anecdote is not data! There are people who are supposedly "cured" by anything from prayer to simply waiting long enough until what ails them poofs away, but we certainly don't rely on these occurrences as protocol!
To date, I've not found "energy diagnostic" and subsequent type treatments that seem reliable enough to recommend them to anyone, especially when some practitioners charge a fortune, rather than try to get their practice out there into the broad definition of medicine by making it accessible to those who truly need it.
I'll keep my eyes open for new developments as always, and there are some promising developments in emerging fields (ie. homeopathy. Lots of double blind studies there. Even if we don't know the "why" or if the "why" is wrong, there's clearly some effectiveness being demonstrated), but at current I cannot recommend current, USA available energy diagnostics/treatments.
I'm interested in the exact models and availability/construction/build of the "new generation" machines that the original poster is speaking about. I've been considering purchasing one of these devices for quite some time to attempt to evaluate its effectiveness and run a few minor trials.
If someone would like to link this data to me and feels more comfortable doing so in a PM, that's quite all right.
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lymie_in_md
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I've only had EDS done once and it said I had lyme. A clinical diagnosis later confirmed along with ART testing. And yes these could have been as you said, based on a technique. However when I had the eds done, i told the practioner i had 6 root canals but I said I didn't know where they were. She reported exactly where they were, but I guess I was lucky.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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massman
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Blackstone - Are tou a health pro ? What kind ?
What does not work well for you does not work well for anyone else ?
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sparkle7
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Yes, I agree with you Blackstone.
There's the possibility with both "energy medicine" & regular allopathic medicine that "we" as patients don't do enough. I've heard that said in regards to not taking abx long enough or taking the correct combination.
If we don't have any accurate testing for Lyme or the co-infections - all of these prescriptions may not be the correct thing that we need. Just "believing" in doxycycline or our doctor isn't going to do it, either.
There's no actual data or studies that I have seen that proves that applied kinesiology or these electrodermal testing devices are accurate. Might as well flip a coin...
I do believe in the power of the mind & things that can't be easily explained. It's just that when it comes to spending alot of money on healthcare - I think there needs to be a little more than belief or faith.
Some people are very good practitioners - whether they are using herbal remedies or are an MD. Sometimes, I can just be surfing the internet & find the answer to a question I may have been thinking about. Is there something to explain this? Is it coincidence, syncronicity, intuition, luck, intellect or skill?
Sometimes we get the answer we need & sometimes it's alot of work. It difficult with Lyme since it may be symptoms of Lyme or it may be something else. There are overlaps in the symptoms with many other illnesses.
It's very frustrating - so, people look to practitioners who use non-traditional means to give them the answers. The answers may be right or they may be wrong. We just don't know...
Taking some supplement to support the spleen, liver, gall bladder, etc. is not going to hurt us but it may not be the reason why we are ill.
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massman
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"There's no actual data or studies" - there are none due to the FACT that EDS + AK cannot be studied the same way drugs + medicine are.
"Taking some supplement to support the spleen, liver, gall bladder, etc. is not going to hurt us but it may not be the reason why we are ill.". So Dr K is wrong when he says many symptoms are due to toxins produced and not eliminated correctly.
seekhelp
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I agree with most of what Blackstone said. Yes, I'm not popular. I know. Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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Brussels
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There are energy test and energy tests. There are medical doctors and medical doctors.
Just because you use a tool called energetic testing (whatever if a machine or just humanly measured), it doesn't mean you are better than a good doctor that uses no energetic tests.
Having said that, since I got in touch with ART, I didn't find any other energy test modality that can compare to this 'system'.
If you can't find it because link is too big, just go to Mercola site and search by the name of Dr. K and ART, you'll find it.
This system of testing is muuuuch more sophisticated than a simple machine reading like Asyra, Vega, whatever. It involves much more. The muscle test is just a simple instrument, like a thermometer is an instrument.
Even a bad ART practioner will probably find quite a lot of issues and put the issues into a hierarchical frame. What is difficult in chronic diseases is to give a hierarchical order for treatment.
We all know that we go to the doctor with a list of 50 symptoms and the ones ranking higher are the ones causing us greater pain or greater disability. For us, these are the highest ranking problems.
But are these the ones that should be treated first? Not always. ART can give you hints about that hierarchical order of treatment, in my opinion.
I gotta go now. Anyway, I was a skeptical and see to what I turned into.
It took me years to find a good homeopath. It was not the first one that helped me. Same goes for all allopathic doctors. Why wouldn't that be different for energy medicine?
Posts: 6200 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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Truthfinder
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Blackstone, I'm not sure I understand. You're saying that you spent $100+ on some type of `energy diagnostic' testing using bogus `diagnoses and symptoms' on the initial questionnaire/ paperwork? Do I have that correct? Could you elaborate a bit (what type of testing this was, etc.)?
You said: **'' I've had a woman come to me who was told, after spending $2000 on remedies, by one of these practitioners that because she was stressed and unhappy her negative energy stopped the "medicine" from working.**
All I can say about that situation is that the practitioner either didn't have the ability (proper medicines and training) to treat this patient as a `whole person', and/or the practitioner doesn't understand what `holistic' really means.
Brussels, just curious - what type `electronic testing machines' have you used in the past in Europe for evaluation purposes?
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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massman
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posted
This is the thread where people (I think they are people) do not answer straight forward questions.
When these creatures think something does not work for them that means it does not and cannot work for anybody.
So of course I will ask: Is the primary force of life chemicals or energy ?
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It shows that muscle testing, EAV, SCIO, and all energy testing, are just tools. It sounds like Dr. K. tests using various protocols, and cross references using different muscle testing techniques to see where the body is in harmony or weakness.
What I like about energy testing is that it can ASSIST in determining what to treat first, and how to support treatment. Ultimately, we make the decision for ourselves.
Brussels, have you learned to use ART on yourself?
Massman, I completely agree with your statement, that quoted Dr. K. as saying that many symptoms are due to toxins produced, and not eliminated correctly. If I have learned anything in my short tenure as a probable lyme/babesia patient, it is that most often, flu-like symptoms and achiness, is caused by toxins released and recirculation, and not eliminated...
nancy
Posts: 964 | From san diego | Registered: Oct 2009
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@Massman - In the fields of medicine and even in law as well, stating that "I am a doctor" or "I am a lawyer" in certain situations mean that you have to also state that "This is not to be taken as medical advice from a physician" or "I am not acting as legal counsel at this time" because of legality and ethical issues.
There are LLMDs who browse this board and others, but unless they wish to take a certain "responsibility" for doing so, they never state who they are in public for a number of reasons. I prefer not to divulge my exact status except to stay that at current I do not practice due to disability.
Nomatter what the treatment, there's always the possibility for differing outcomes. However, there is a process for evaluating a potential treatment for validity. You figure out its effectiveness, how it works, why it works, under what conditions it should be used, and in general how many people will benefit.
Sure, there will always be outliers in your data - people that have remarkable improvement when they really shouldn't at all, and people who have a bad outcome despite the fact that all signs pointed otherwise. However, these are small, end points of your data set. The problem I have with the energy diagnostics I've seen is that there IS no data set at all!
What really concerns me is that you say these tests cannot be studied the "Same way", which to my understanding means through legitamate scientific inquiry. Why is this? The great thing about the scientific method is that it can be applied in so many ways to so many different problems, that there has to be a way to apply it to this, should it be a legitimate diagnostic or treatment?
I won't pretend to know the methodology of these tests completely, but couldn't there be defined investigations with control groups, double blind studies, limitations of variables and more? For instance, having people with many illnesses that have been verified by other diagnostics (ie blood tests etc) presented to these machines or practitioners, and see how often they can identify correctly, with no other information. If it turns out that an extremely high percentage of the time there are correct diagnoses with very limited false positives or negatives, there could be something to it. However, as I said above I've not seen any data to show this.
We simply can't make excuses that "X can't be tested for its effectiveness" and then have people relying on X for important medical information and paying tons of money to do so. We need clear information, understanding, and confirmations from other sources.
@ Truthfinder - Yes, much like in any practitioner's office, I filled out paperwork about my reason for visit (This individual rented space in a LLMD's office complex, but is not under his guidance. As a courtesy, I decided to visit and give this a try after it was suggested to me ) As with many LLMDs and alternative practitioners, the paperwork was extensive and had me listing everything from my diagnosed illnesses to psychological-sounding questions and diet questions.
The testing itself was of the ART "muscle testing" variety, where the practitioner grips the patient in certain areas, the patient is given items, usually medicine and supplements complete in their plastic bottles no less, and are told to state outloud a statement of intention such as "Is what I hold in my hand good for my body" and then attempt to push down on the practitioner's arm. If you can do so, its a "Yes". If you can't, its a "No". There was also a portion where patients write true and false statements on scraps of paper, fold them up so they can't see, and then perform the same sort of test.
There was also some sort of portable machine hookup that had several electrodes attached to the body in a separate test, where there was no attempting to push down anyone's arm, but simply the practitioner asking questions, laying hands on the patient, and taking readings from the machine. I should also mention that questions regarding the methodology before the test were met with curt answers, and during the test were met with frustration. This was a reason I didn't get too much data on say, the exact make and model of the machine, what it did, and the reasons behind the interpretations. At the end the data as I said before, wasn't conclusive and there were many times when it out and out contradicted itself.
In reference to the woman who came to see me after her experience with electro-diagnostics, it could very well be true that she saw someone who quite frankly, didn't know what they were doing. I've also visited with several other practices that used electro-diagnostics in my own search for answers and they too were no more helpful nor able to be identified properly, so this seems to be a systemic issue. The problem is there seem to be very few controls on what someone who is "good enough" happens to be - in fact, it seems when people have anecdotal success, they feel the practitioner is "good". This is natural, but it doesn't validate the practitioner nor their methodology.
The problem is I can't see any verifiable controls in either practitioner skill OR methodology. See, if I meet with an orthopedic doctor for a broken bone he likely has an array of treatments (setting the bone, immobilization via cast while healing) that have been proven valid, AND he knows which to use when. Now, if said orthopod uses a cast without realigning the bone in a compound fracture, he quite bluntly, screwed up. However, that doesn't mean that casts are bad - they've been proven effective. There is a valid, proven standard of care and protocol that can be compared to. With these electrodiagnostics, there is neither a standard of care, nor proven methodology! This compounds the problem immensely, especially when astronomical fees are charged!
I'm going to read through Brussels link in the morning just for my own edification. Some people may think that I am on "the other side" against any sort of "alternative" therapy. This is untrue. I simply want to see the valid "alternative" therapies moved from "alternative" into the conventional toolbox, accessible to all who can benefit from them.
For instance, herbal medicine and acupuncture. Both of these fields used to be seen as bunk quackery, but then science showed that in certain circumstances they had certain effects - it isn't difficult to illustrate when you place a needle into X nerve/muscle location, Y happens. Likewise, its easy to investigate if Cat's Claw bark has chemical properties that helps create natural killer cells. If anyone doubts the usefulness and/or of naturally occurring herbal compounds they need only look to the cannibis and poppy plant .
Today, these treatment are in many cases covered by insurance (acupuncture, anyhow. Since most herbs are considered food and not drugs, they're not able to be covered by insurances). I should also note that SOME people aren't too happy about this - The kind of person that charges $500 per session for their "secret" alternative medicine knowledge has BIG money to lose if their treatment goes "conventional" and every family MD is prescribing it, and it is given a CPT code that pays absolute crap. This is something to consider when so many people do not wish for or claim their treatments cannot be given trials or whatnot..
@Massman's last question -
Suffice it to say, chemical energy is one type of energy, and at different times energy is in different forms which also means there are different "Rules" to be followed. That is the most concise explanation I can think of. I will say however that there is a lot of energy medicine predicated on the belief that energy in certain places and forms acts the same way EVERYWHERE, which is where a lot of the explanation thereof falls apart. I'm not saying that all energy medicine is in error, but there's a lot of misunderstanding out there, and a lot of unproven claims.
Posts: 691 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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Brussels
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Nancy, yes, I learned the basics of ART, basics of Psycho-kinesiolgy, and MFT: all 3 'techniques' are interconnected.
While I find they are not the answers for everything (a lot depend on the practioner too), they are a great help for finding what to treat, in which order, etc.
Glad you liked the article. I think it does ilustrate how SMALL is the energetic testing component and what is the most important thing is the method.
Mercola himself is an avid searcher of alternative healing methods and he also fell in love with ART. I'm still to see some other method that is superior to ART in finding solutions / causes.
The Polarization Filter is one of the most useful instrument he uses. It helps us seeing things that other energy testing methods have no idea about and help us seeing what comes first in priority.
His multiple testing of each organ (organ, intracelular, extracelular and stress) in two times (one with pol filter one without) make that each organ is tested at least 8 times!! Most energy tests will only test once for each organ, and they may miss important problems.
I'm sure it is not a final answer for all health problems as the method has evolved continue to change, but it is nevertheless an amazing method. ------
Blackstone: did the guy open your regulation before the test?
Most of lyme sufferers have their regulation close. When that happens, answers will not be reliable.
Some practioners call that grounding.
---- Tracy, I was talking about the VEGA, EAV, all these electrodermal tests.
Posts: 6200 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote: Blackstone: did the guy open your regulation before the test?
Most of lyme sufferers have their regulation close. When that happens, answers will not be reliable.
Some practitioners call that grounding.
Can you please explain what all this means....very interesting.
Posts: 964 | From san diego | Registered: Oct 2009
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lymie_in_md
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In energy diagnostics there is a device called a lie detector test. It is well accepted method for getting the truth from someone. It is based just like ART, on the ANS or autonomic nervous system.
My point is fundamental, this device can get's its information the ANS. What the ANS does is everything to facilitate all body processes. So using a lie detector or ART is essentially the same thing. ART though is the skill of the practioner to evaluate the overall body condition and what to employ first based on skilled assessment.
ART is used to talk to the ANS just like a lie detector. However a lie detector is far more precise in someways and in most ways not. As a sensor the human body or life organisms are second to none. The sensors we all possess is at the sub particle level. A lie detector is based on rigidly defined parameters based on electrical resistance.
I believe when I can put a substance near my body and I can feel a reaction. As I've increased my sensitivity over time, substances resonate greater. I believe I can channel into my sensors to say take this don't take that. Similar to a lie detector shows how muscle changes occur during questioning, the conscious can lie but the ANS can't.
So we have two sides of our being, the conscious and the ANS. Creating tests utilizing the ANS is the idea of energy medicine. What the russians learned is the ANS also communicates based on radio waves and gave rise to radionics and biofeedback devices. Instead of tracking resistance electronically we know base it on a trigger and capture. I trigger a question to the ANS and capture the radio waves. Based on the pattern returned, you can conclude an answer. The russians for the cosmonaut program created a highly sophisticated biofeedback device and software called the oberon.
The russians invested millions into the oberon. I imagine their scientists saw great promise in it.
I'm not sure of how accurate these devices are. I am sure for myself, my own ability to determine what to take or what not to take, because of the concepts of ART, the ANS, or biofeedback by simply asking questions to my body. It has educated me beyond any care I could get from any practioner. Because I don't need to schedule an appointment.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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seekhelp
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Bob, but with a lie detector, YOU know if you're correct or not. Of course, your ANS will go haywire. If one were put in a room with a hungry tiger, we'd assume we'd be mauled and react, right?
With unknown pills, capsules, verbal words, etc. how would we know? If I understand correctly, what a person may think is good for them may be their worst enemy.
it's all so odd.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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Brussels
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Nancy, the first thing an ART practioner does is to open someone's regulation. It seems that a non good functioning ANS will not give coherent answers as with a functioning ANS.
Today, dr. K. explains that a bit different though (since the Pol filter entered the picture), he explains that in terms of coherence of photon field. Once the field is coherent, it will give coherent answers. If the field is distorted, it can give good answers sometimes, other times it won't.
That's is why I think lie dectectors can't work all the time, nor all muscle tests work all the time, or electrodermal readings like VEGA either (in my opinion).
So the first thing to do in an appointment is checking this photon field coherence. Some practioners before called that grouding. Many practioners in the past usually said that if you are not grounded, the tests won't work well.
It was difficult to find a method to make someone grounded, specially people that were severely sick. Only taking the shoes off and walking directly on the earth, or getting all metalic objects off, or any artificial objects off, or putting some stones on the person, etc sometimes don't work to 'ground' someone. Dr. K. calls that to 'open someone's regulation'.
It sounds fake, I know, and an excuse for such energetic tests not to work. But believe me, it is not. I helped quite a lot of people getting their regulation open.
And what he explains is something not as black and white as one may think. It is in shades. There's a point where most energetic tests start to work in a coherent way.
Example: a person's regulation is close for many reasons (almost never a single reason): he may use the wrong shoes (too much isolation from the ground), or may be wearing these shirts with tags on the neck, or may be having a strong infection, or suffering from a digestive problem, or wearing too many metals, be too long exposed to EMRs from his computer or cell phone, be eating too many allergenic foods etc etc.
All these contribute to close one's regulation, meaning, the ANS gets 'disturbed'. Sometimes, you put a remedy near the person that kills the infection, and the ANS opens (even before ingestion), or you ask the person to take all metalic objects off and he opens. Sometimes a person requires to do a sequence of things to get it open. And so on.
dr. K. has a technique to measure an open regulation in two levels. One is the simple technique one learns in the first courses. The other checks to see if the person's regulation is very well indeed (it shows another level of opening).
When one uses muscle tests or the biotensor, one will see that the answers vary in tones. Either you can have a weak arm but in different levels (like very weak, middle weak, only a bit weak) for example, or a strong arm (very strong, middle strong or only mildly strong). Same for biotensor, it can swing in different ways,not only a yes and no answer.
These in between answers do have meanings! A practioner with some experience knows how to tune the EXACT amount of drops of a remedy just by this intensity of response. It is not a YES and NO only question.
Think about magnesium. Lyme and candida deplete us from magnesium. There 's a point when our magnesium deposits start to be deficient. But there is a lot of variation in between being fully charged with magnesium, to 70% charged, then 50% charged, then 30% charged to 10% charged.
Each practioner will not get same responses, specially if the client has about 60-40% of magnesium reserves (just an example). One guy will say: client is depleted of Mg. He needs to supplement.
The other practioner will say: the client still has Mg enough. No need to supplement. In the next days, though, when his level fall to 30-20%, most of practioners will recommend Mg though.
I also see that I get positive answers for some things while other practioners get a negative. Are they right and I am wrong? For certain things, there's no right and wrong, a bit like the magnesium story above. It depends on the sensitivity.
---
Seek, as for wanting to eat something we don't need and that in fact do harm to us, I guess once I read something like that, that is pretty right:
Anything that is good for you is never addictive (spelling?). You never get addiction to something that is truly good for you. Anything else you feel you crave and need on a daily base forever (no substitute for it), it is almost certain bad for you.
I think of the addiction to banana an autistic boy had and that awful cravings of banana. Once the banana was cut from his diet, the boy got much better (even though not cured).
As for the ANS and our minds. They interact, indeed, but surprisingly, many of the things we may think are good to us will get our energetic tests saying 'bad'.
If you think, this is good for me, and then do the test, you'll probably get it as good for you. But if you say before the test, I don't know if this is truly good for me, then make the test, you'll get surprisingly results.
Like all of us, we think we want to get better, right?
Wrong!!!
I thought I wanted to get better. When I ask my body, do I want to get better? The answer was 'no'. I wanted to be sick (for whatever reasons that were not 'reasonable'). But until that moment, my brain didn't know about it.
It's a bit like when someone that loves you tell you a truth that hurts, but that you know it comes for good.
I gotta go now!
Posts: 6200 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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sparkle7
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Interesting. Thanks for the thoughtful responses.
I was just wondering - how can anyone be truly open in regulation?
For example - if a practitioner is asking the questions & getting responses via some method (applied kineseology, etc.) - won't their subconscious thoughts come into play in the equation?
If they know they will make alot of money on a certain variety of supplements - won't they influence the result? Or if they have a particular leaning towards a specific concept, won't it also influence the result?
For example, if the practitioner is allergic to oranges - won't they potentially get a negative result for the patient in regards to a question "Are oranges are good for the patient"? Even if it's purely subconscious...?
I don't think anyone can be completely unbiased. Is open regulation only a physical thing or does it apply to mental states? The practitioner may have a headache, be thinking about something unrelated to the patient, have various biases, have a pain in their foot, etc.
I guess this is why people may feel computers are less biased - but do they even work? Some of these tests are influenced by the tester's mental state towards the device or concept - especially in PSI studies...
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lymie_in_md
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ART isn't perfect because of the practioner or environmental factors possibly time of day. Same as blood tests, one doctor will read the results of a blood test differently then another. LLMD versus IDSA doctor. Environmental factors in taking a blood test, toooooo many to mention.
We, or society as a whole, believe lie detectors are in the range of 90%+ accurate, hypothetically. If I tested someone for 10 supplements 9 were accurate one was false. And I know the one which was false is false then all are false. That is how we are conditioned. It either works completely or not at all. When I use the biotensor, I don't expect it to be perfect. I expect it to help guide my treatment choices better then just guessing.
Lymies spend a lot of energy in second guessing treatment options and second guessing leads to negative connotations. I suspect even that complicates getting well. I base this on the many post i've read here, questioning doctors what to do, i'm confused, leading to despair.
I use a biotensor and I trust it, and it always tests positively for bananas, so I know it works, I like bananas. Plus, you can get a biotensor for 20 dollars, and there is no wait to test. Immediate answers!
If i go to get an EDS done now, it is to confirm what I think I already know. It may not be perfect, it may lead me to a new thought as to where I am.
Seek, it must confound you to see those that are doing energy oriented medicine getting well. It certainly can't make sense, can it?
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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Thank you so much for your very thoughtful response. It makes sense to me now.
I now remember that the practitioner made sure my feet were on the ground, no supplements or antibiotics near by, and that there was good conductivity. She said my energy was strong, which is good considering all that our bodies endure with treatment.
In my search for EDS screening, I consulted with a very knowledgeable practitioner who uses both EDS and the SCIO. She opted to use the SCIO to test my protocol. Her results showed, the one antibiotic (Ceftin)and supplement (bromelain) that I knew I could never give up, tested negative. At the time, I was on Ceftin, and if I as much as missed one dose, immediately my knee would swell and was limping. I forgot to take the medication that morning, but took the dose right before our meeting. She refused to consider that in her analysis. I viewed the negative reading as knowing my body did not need Ceftin at that moment, because I had just taken some, resulting in a false negative. She said I shouldn't take either Ceftin or Bromelain. She just wanted to be right, so in this case, the practitioner, with all her knowledge was useless.
The more I read your post, the more important information I glean from your response. When I go for my follow-up, I am definitely going to go with this thought in mind. Now you really have me thinking....
quote: If you think, this is good for me, and then do the test, you'll probably get it as good for you. But if you say before the test, I don't know if this is truly good for me, then make the test, you'll get surprisingly results.
nancy
[ 01-26-2010, 05:32 PM: Message edited by: nspiker ]
Posts: 964 | From san diego | Registered: Oct 2009
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Truthfinder
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posted
Bob and Selma - terrific explanations!
Massman, I know you really like Standard Process products - at least 3 local chiropractors use them here. Do you have any experience with or know anything about products made by Standard Enzyme Company of North America? This is what my EDS practitioner uses (primarily) and I have to say that the herbals seem to be excellent products and work well together (synergistic).
Wow, Selma - you've experienced a lot of different testing methods. I didn't realize that.
Well, I have to say that I'm VERY impressed with my latest computerized EDS testing and the protocol I started 9 days ago. BIG things are happening for me. I'll tell some about it. Sorry, it will be LONG, even if I leave a lot out. Bear with me or move on if not interested.
****************************** My latest CEDSA (computerized EDS) test indicated a number of malfunctions, but the priority items were a toxic liver and parasites in my transverse colon, and both organs were extremely sluggish. Also, I need to get some kind of mouth guard for my teeth at night.
To the best of my recollection, I never mentioned anything about my teeth to my practitioner. But as she was testing, she just asked me if I clench or grind my teeth at night. Well, I do. She had no way of knowing that.
I have other issues, too, but one thing this testing does is determine how many systems I can treat at once, and how much treatment my body can handle at one time. I think we sometimes fail to realize that we can seriously overburden the body by trying to treat too many things at once, or by treating problems too aggressively or in a less-than-ideal order.
Interestingly, parasites did not show up last time. This time, they showed up as a BIG problem. The products that tested well for me included 2 very strong anti-parasitic herbal combinations. My practitioner was very surprised because most people will need only one of them, but I needed both.
It's possible that I recently picked up these parasites, although I had no change in symptoms to indicate something new was going on since the last test. What is more likely is that I had to get the lower part of my colon working, along with my small intestine, thyroid, and adrenal (medulla) gland before my body could handle treatment for the parasite problem. And that's what my last EDS testing and protocol was all about (started last summer).
For at least 9 months, I've really been struggling with my bowel function. It's been worse than it's ever been, despite major diet changes, fibers, probiotics, laxatives to prevent a complete standstill, etc. The last protocol I was on based on EDS testing helped a lot at first, but then sort of quit working.
I realize now that I should have scheduled another full test much earlier than I did. (Warning - `too much information' alert:) One thing really strange about my elimination issues was that everything that came out of me for months had virtually NO odor. Very peculiar (at least for me).
Things were so bad, in late November, I went to my PCP and got a prescription for that GoLytely stuff that people drink before a colonoscopy to `clean out'. I was really afraid I was going to end up with an impacted bowel if I didn't get things moving. Long story short, the GoLytely clean-out didn't do anything for me, and a week later I was right back where I started.
Okay, back to the present protocol: I started with just the base products and didn't begin the 2 anti-parasitic products. My hope was to get better elimination going better before I attempted to kill parasites in there. I think dead bugs hanging around too long would be worse than live ones.
For 5 days on the products, nothing happened, nothing changed. I got very discouraged.
(Warning: More TMI coming.....)
On day 6, all h*ll broke loose! Literally. And every day since then. I have probably never been so cleaned out in my life, but it hasn't been like diarrhea. Just great quantities of STUFF. Everything FELT different, too. Like a dam had been removed somewhere. I don't know where I've been storing all this stuff, but my body was SO ready to get rid of it.
And rightfully so, because the odor of everything coming out of me now is so vile-smelling, I can hardly stand to be around me. My gas would clear a large room in nothing flat. Socially speaking, I'm not very good company right now. That's okay - it's worth it.
One of the first things I noticed was that my thinking was clearer, sharper somehow. I got to feel some semblance of the old me.
I started the anti-parasitics a couple of days ago, and yesterday I had a very bad day of pretty bad pain, indigestion, and bloating. I was pretty miserable and even missed taking some of my product. But this morning, I'm cleaned out again and feeling pretty good. (No, not seeing anything interesting in the toilet..... yet.)
I guess time will tell how well this all works out for me long term. But if getting cleaned out and little less brain fog is all I get out of this, it was worth every penny I spent so far. It sure is a lot cheaper than ending up in the ER with an impacted bowel. Been there, done that.
************************************
Sometimes I get a little envious of you folks who find out from their practitioners if you have this or that type of specific infection, etc. Especially if it corresponds to some lab tests you had. I won't get any of that from my practitioner.
But maybe that's not such a bad thing. For instance, if I went in there with an expectation that Lyme was my primary problem (based on lab results or a clinical diagnosis) and `infection' didn't show up on the testing, I might begin to doubt the whole process at the start. Inserting my personal expectations into the mix is likely to cause trouble.
I could NEVER have figured out any of this on my own - what all was wrong, what to treat first, what to take for it that wouldn't mess up something else. I needed help.
Those who have developed personal skills to determine what they need at any given time are way ahead of the game. And I commend them for putting forth the effort to find what works for them.
Maybe one or more `infections' will show up for me down the road. I'm not concerned about it either way. My goal is for my body to function better, and I really don't care about HOW that is accomplished, or in what order.
If you stayed with me through all this, God bless ya. And hope my experience helped some folks.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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lymie_in_md
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Tracy -- Its great when you achieve progress, I guess in this case a milestone in your treatment.
Nancy -- when people go to get tested they have to free there minds of all thoughts or biases. If you don't, you get slanted results.
If I take my biotensor put it in my hand and consciously imagine yes it will be yes, if I change to NO it will be no. If you look at my hand it isn't moving, the biotensor will sway depending on the intensity of the yes and no. The ring of the tensor will sway about 12 inches with enough intensity. I could go further but I'm afraid I would break it.
I don't like testing other folks, because I don't trust their intentions. So I now try to avoid it. I always suggest they find their own ability to test.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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massman
Unregistered
posted
Truthfinder - no don't know much about the SEC - sounds like you are doing better and FEELING better too ! Keep smokin
Blackstone - thanks for the extended reply. Lots of LOL on the herbs + acupuncture = quackery. Some drugs are basesd on herbs, drug companies are now in the Amazon exploring. My mentors mentor was down there 45 years ago.
And acupuncture ? Yeeaaah those Chinese knew nothing + learned nothing in 4,000 years ! Musta been like that EDS scam that is done today. "Got a problem ? Let me do an evaluation + treatment + sell you lots of high priced HERBS !"
Bob - thanks for all your posts + experience. Very appreciative.
Others - regulation does need to be open. There are stressorsthat can + do effect it. And you can influence it with your thoughts + attitude. I was taught to "keep your mind as blank as possible" by someone who studied a lot with Dr. K.
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I have probably never been so cleaned out in my life, but it hasn't been like diarrhea. Just great quantities of STUFF. Everything FELT different, too. Like a dam had been removed somewhere. I don't know where I've been storing all this stuff, but my body was SO ready to get rid of it. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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