lymie_in_md
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posted
Hadlyme and Bigz : can't you find anything scientific to support using amalgams. Hadlyme's justification for using amalgams, "Us in the dental field will think and know what is correct and right". I'm really disappointed, there must something even trumped up. To think you have dental degrees and you can't support your position on amalgams. All I can say is WOW!
To all of us in the lyme world, some of the practioners we've seen who said our symptoms were in our heads probably also took the course of just knowing. Gee, all those painful symptoms, yep, you got to see a psychologist because those symptoms are in your head. Why I am I so sure, well I took a great course in college called just knowing. I bet we've all seen a lot of professionals from the land of just knowing.
I have theory that just knowing is a lame excuse for not doing your homework. It includes dentists and practioners who feel too comfortable for what they think they know!
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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sixgoofykids
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quote:Originally posted by lymie_in_md: Hadlyme and Bigz : can't you find anything scientific to support using amalgams. Hadlyme's justification for using amalgams, "Us in the dental field will think and know what is correct and right". I'm really disappointed, there must something even trumped up. To think you have dental degrees and you can't support your position on amalgams. All I can say is WOW!
Interesting, too, that both Lymie and I are completely well and addressed heavy metals .... there are two cases.
I will admit that the amalgams are stronger than the other materials and maybe easier to use, definitely cheaper. I will also admit that they were the best technology when they were first introduced, what, a hundred years ago???
They did have a significant negative impact on my health.
It would be very interesting if you in the dental field would address heavy metals and see how it impacted the symptoms you are having that are attributed to Lyme Disease. Lyme Disease is much more complicated that *only* borrelia.
You also may want to address parasites. Parasites absorb heavy metals and I've heard it postulated that perhaps our body allows them to protect us from heavy metals.
Lymie and I both went through many treatments for things other than bacteria in order to get completely well. Maybe the best way for you to have first hand knowledge is to see if chelation affects you at all .... you have two people here, no three, GiGi also said it helped her, who say it made a big difference.
Their use was grandfathered in by the FDA, I wonder if they would even be approved today considering the FDA has them categorized as a moderate risk?
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Adding mercury to the detox load of the body is going to have an effect, which may not be noticed immediately, but will be specific to the phenotype of the individual and also related to the rest of the toxin load and nutritional status of the individual. Not everyone will be "mad as a hatter" two minutes after amalgam placement. Whatever the problem though, it is unlikely that the individual will present to their dentist with the complaint, more likely to a/their physician who will come up with a snappy diagnosis but be unable to answer the patient's next questions: "Why me?", and "Why now?"
It is this disconnect between caregivers that we need to address to really illuminate the problem.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Bigz, since you're interested in articles, here's a history of amalgam fillings for you to peruse. Pay particular attention to the discoveries in 1989.
And for those for whom megadoses of antibiotics have not been effective in treating Lyme, pay particular attention to Anne Sommers' discovery in 1993:
1819: A mercury-based dental amalgam filling was invented by the English chemist, Bell.
1826: The dental amalgam mercury filling was first used in England and France.
1830: Amalgam fillings were first used in the United States. Numerous harmful effects were soon widely reported.
1840: The American Society of Dental Surgeons denounced the use of amalgams due to concerns about mercury poisoning. Members of the society were required to pledge to avoid the mercury amalgam fillings. But many dentists continued using amalgams, since they were cheaper, faster and easier to place than gold materials.
1859: Determined to continue, the pro-mercury amalgam faction in America formed its own dental society, first called the National Dental Association; it later became the American Dental Association (ADA).
1926: Prominent German chemist Alfred Stock discovered that mercury was the source of his own health problems. After having his own amalgams removed, Stock then studied the health problems of many of his friends and advised them to have their amalgams removed. He studied the release of mercury vapor from amalgams and published his findings in over thirty scientific papers. Stock led an international movement to halt use of mercury amalgam filling.
1930s: Stock's laboratory and most of his records were destroyed in a World War II bombing raid, derailing the anti-amalgam mercury movement that he had led.
1957: Dr. Karl O. Frykholm of Sweden published a study wrongly claiming that when saliva covers an amalgam filling, the mercury is no longer released. Ever since then, the ADA has cited Frykholm's paper as a proof that amalgam fillings are stable and safe.
1973: An American dentist suffering from MS, Hal Huggins, DDS, met a Brazilian dentist, Olympia Pinto, at a conference in Mexico City. Dr. Pinto shocked Muggins by telling him that amalgam fillings are unstable and mercury from amalgams can trigger illnesses like Hodgkin's disease and sickle cell anemia. Eventually Dr. Pinto sent Dr. Muggins many studies on amalgam research. After learning about the amalgam-health issue, Muggins researched and wrote his first major book on the hazards of amalgams.
1979: Measureable Mercury coming from Amalgam. Gay and others at the University of Iowa reported a measurable release of mercury vapor from amalgam fillings; when the amalgams were stimulated by chewing, brushing or hot beverages the release was far greater. In 1981 Svare, at Ohio State, confirmed Gay's findings.
1987: A Swedish study by Nylander, Friberg and Lind measured mercury levels in the brains of people who had died suddenly and unexpectedly. The mercury levels in the occipital lobe brain cortex correlated significantly with the number of amalgam fillings in the person's mouth.
1987: Nylander of Sweden and Eggleston of California, did a similar autopsy study on victims of sudden, unexpected death. They confirmed a strong correlation between brain levels of mercury and the number of amalgam filling surfaces in the teeth.
1989: Dentists Poisoned. Nylander and Friberg published an autopsy study showing that mercury levels were much higher in the pituitary glands and the thyroid glands of dental staff as compared to a non-dentist control group. The mercury levels in the pituitary glands of the dental group was about forty times higher than that of the controls. Other studies found dentists to have a higher rate of irritability, depression and mood disorders. Dentists have a much higher suicide rate than other white collar professionals.
1990: Lorscheider and Vimy at the University of Calgary School of Medicine placed amalgam fillings with radioactive mercury into pregnant sheep and monkeys. After just 29 days after the placement of the mercury amalgams, the mercury was traced and found in the kidneys, the liver, the gastrointestinal tract, the brain, and many other parts of the body including the unborn fetus. For both the mother and the fetus, the highest mercury level was in the pituitary gland, explaining the clinical association between amalgams and depression and mood disorder.
1983: University of Calgary research dentist Murray Vimy, joined with Michael Ziff, an American dentist and author, to found the International Academy of Oral Medicine and Toxicology (IAOMT) to educate dentists and other professionals about evidence based dentistry. With his father, Sam Ziff, Michael Ziff went on to author books on such topics as mercury free dentistry and dental mercury detox 1988 DAMS groups, formed in Albuquerque, Denver, Chicago and elsewhere, begin to educate the public.
December 16, 1990: The CBS television show Sixty Minutes, hosted by Morley Safer, and viewed by 30 million Americans, exposed the hazards of mercury amalgams; the host interviewed scientists Lars Friberg, Fritz Lorscheider, Murray Vimy and Boyd Haley. The program also exposed the biased attacks by state dental licensing boards on mercury free, holistic dentists. The ADA spokesmen squirmed under cross examination by the host. This sort of dental amalgam expose was never repeated again on any TV network. This entire segment can now be viewed on YouTube.
1993: Its All in Your Head, by Hal Huggins began making further headway in expanding public awareness of the amalgam mercury problem.
1993: Anne Sommers, Ph.D., a microbiologist, reported that the placement of mercury amalgam fillings in monkeys and in humans causes a major shift in the kinds of bacteria found in the intestines. Through natural selection, some bacteria survive the mercury poison and are mercury resistant. Interestingly, the mercury resistant were found to have become anti�biotic resistant; Sommers concluded that amalgams tend to produce more anti-biotic resistant bacteria.
1993, December: The largest German manufacturer of amalgam, Degussa AG, stopped making amalgam.
1994: Sweden announced phase out of amalgam fillings, starting with pregnant women and children.
1994: Lorscheider, Vimy, Pendergrass and Haley reported that elemental mercury vapor from amalgam fillings is toxic to brain neurons. Low-dose mercury causes the neurofibrillary tangles in the brain regarded as a key marker of Alzheimer's disease.
1994: A human autopsy study on babies who had died of Sudden Infant Death Syndrome (SIDS) was published by G. Drasch and others at the University of Munich in Germany. They found a strong correlation between the mercury levels in the brains and kidneys of the babies and the number of amalgam fillings in the mothers' teeth. These findings were confirmed by another autopsy study conducted in 1996 by Lutz. These studies showed that mercury from a mother's mercury amalgam fillings is typically the major source of mercury for the unborn child. The German government then acted to curb the use of amalgams in children and women of child bearing age.
1995: G. Mark Richardson, Ph.D., released a report for Health Canada, Canada's chief health regulatory body, on mercury exposure from dental amalgam fillings. He found that amalgams contribute about 50% or more of an adult's mercury exposure and present an unacceptable hazard. Dr. Richardson advised Health Canada to ban dental amalgams; although it was unwilling to go that far, in 1996 Health Canada established guidelines for dentists cautioning against the use of amalgams in children, pregnant women, people with kidney disorders and other vulnerable people.
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by bigz123: Chaps. Please find me a single article that shows there is a genetic relationship with mercury toxicity. I'm not a physician, I never claimed to be one. I am a dentist. Like I said. I have never once had a problem with any amalgam fillings in any patients. Don't you think that I would be affected the most, as I am placing all of them? Both of my uncles are dentists as well, no problems what so ever. I guess our "genetics" has really helped us out on this one. hahaha
You seem to be ill. No?
So much for those genetics.
Posts: 967 | From A deserted island without internet access | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by DoctorLuddite: Adding mercury to the detox load of the body is going to have an effect, which may not be noticed immediately, but will be specific to the phenotype of the individual and also related to the rest of the toxin load and nutritional status of the individual. Not everyone will be "mad as a hatter" two minutes after amalgam placement. Whatever the problem though, it is unlikely that the individual will present to their dentist with the complaint, more likely to a/their physician who will come up with a snappy diagnosis but be unable to answer the patient's next questions: "Why me?", and "Why now?"
It is this disconnect between caregivers that we need to address to really illuminate the problem.
Very well said.
If your patients start getting irritable and angry 10 years after a few amalgams were placed, do you honestly think they are going to come back to you?
Most likely they will see the primary care physician. And unless they are a "quack" doctor (as you would probably like to put it), they aren't going to be looking at your amalgams. Their physician will blame everything on stress, and probably refer you to a psychiatrist. Perhaps the body will be able to eventually handle the burden on its own, and you will be able to go off psychiatric medication. If it's more severe, perhaps they will keep you on psychiatric medicine. Perhaps you will start developing other true PHYSICAL symptoms, but despite your intuition, this will all be attributed to your anxiety/irritability, and then you end up on more "psych" medications (maybe something like Lyrica) in attempt to control your increasing symptoms.
Our medical care system doesn't see the body as one. It's a problem.
Mercury toxicity may not make your teeth/gums hurt, but even if it does, the symptoms will be seen as and most likely addressed as periodontal disease, and your dentist is not going to care about or even question you about all the other symptoms you have. That's for your physician/psychiatrist to manage.
You've probably never seen a case of mercury toxicity, and most likely you never will. That's not what your looking for as a dentist. Or am I wrong again?
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming you for not seeing it. After all, are you even allowed to order things like mercury toxicity screens (I don't know the answer to this question)? And even if you could, I'm sure you wouldn't as that may just throw up red flags, and put your license at risk. Insurance companies don't like doctors that do things that are not medically accepted in our current system. That's a reason why doctors who are not trapped in the box of western medicine (and focus more on diet, nutrition, supplements, and wellness) usually don't take insurance.
I think in many cases, when a patient has MUPS, or "idiopathic diseases", the physician fails to look as the body as a whole. It's not their fault. They aren't trained to be holistic.
Posts: 967 | From A deserted island without internet access | Registered: Sep 2009
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BackinStOlaf
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Member # 23725
posted
I'm in the process of removing mine. 6 down, 10 to go....
-------------------- First Symptom 9/09 Multiple docs, negative Labcorp test LLMD: 1/10 Positive Igenex/CDC test Treatment 2/10 2/10-8/10 Amox, ceftin, zith, flagyl Currently: Bicillin, Minocycline, still dealing with severe breathing issues
Posts: 1121 | From New York, New York | Registered: Dec 2009
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posted
The anti-amalgamists have cited abundant examples of anecdotal and scientific proof of the deadly effects of dental amalgam. And all the pro-amalgamists can say are things akin to "Oh yeah, well you're wrong, you're gullible" with nothing to back it up except statements like "I haven't seen it."
Let me tell you something--I WISH amalgams didn't cause a wide variety of problems. I WISH they didn't have a synergistic effect on Lyme that makes it resistant to treatment while also causing other neurological diseases. I can't tell you how I wish you were right. I WISH you could come up with scientific proof that they are not harmful. I WISH you could explain away all of the scientific and anecdotal proof of amalgam's harmful and deadly effects on the human body. In a way, I was secretly rooting for you, hoping you could come up with a good argument, some new proof that hasn't yet been brought to light. But unfortunately for myself and many others, you haven't done this.
Don't give me this "you believe what you want to believe, I'll believe what I want to believe" baloney. This is a debate. You're supposed to provide evidence that proves your case. When you say things such as that, you're admitting defeat.
The door is still open to making educated rebuttals with some substance, but you've already failed to do this with ample opportunity. The reason is simple. The science is simply not on your side. You can't win a battle with no ammunition.
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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IckyTicky
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posted
I do have to say, though... my regular dentist who knows nothing about Lyme told me that all the amalgam fillings in my mouth could probably be a major cause of my neuro. issues.
-------------------- IGM: 18+, 23+, 30+, 31+++, 34+, 39IND, 41++, 58+++, 66+, 83-93IND IGG: 31+, 39IND, 41+ Also positive for Mycoplasma Pneumoniae and RMSF. Whole family of 5 dx with Lyme. Posts: 1014 | From Texas | Registered: Jul 2009
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The dentist I went to before having problems admits that some of his patients were given instructions by their doctors to have their amalgams removed. He removed them (not using the safe amalgam removal equipment or procedures other than a rubber dam) and he said that the patients' subsequently recovered from their respective illnesses.
Although this dentist is not a holistic dentist, he has not placed amalgam fillings for at least ten years. He does remove them though.
It's funny about the ADA. They don't want dentists to remove and replace amalgam fillings with composites unless there's decay under the amalgams. They say that removing them for no other reason than the dangers (which they deny) can cause more problems due to the exposure incurred while removing them. Well, isn't that the contradiction of the century??!! They claim they're safe, but they they turn around and tell you don't remove them if you don't have to because of the additional mercury exposure it causes. That's unbelievable!
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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quote:Originally posted by bigz123: The amount is extremely small compared to the other environmental exposures such as canned fish.
If that is a true statement, I think it is pretty important to this discussion.
Is that the case, that normal environmental exposure is a greater contributor than amalgams?
Posts: 152 | From West Palm Bech, FL | Registered: May 2008
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
******** MODERATOR'S NOTE - KEEP THIS THREAD ON TOPIC. The insults and irrelevant conversation need to stop. I have deleted many posts that included insults. It's too time consuming to edit. Please limit discussion to amalgams and their safety. Thank you! **********
PS Please let me know if I missed any snide comments by reporting the post. Editing this thread was quite a project. Thanks.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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METALLlC BLUE
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Member # 6628
posted
Most Lyme Disease specialists that I've spoken to agree that it's better "not" to have the mercury fillings because Lyme Disease patients, especially chronic cases of long duration, often have compromised immunity or abnormal immune responses.
Dr. H, perhaps the foremost authority still treating Lyme Disease since Dr. Burrascano retired also treats patients for mercury toxicity and asks his patient's to have them removed if possible. Upon speaking to him he said "We find that many patients with Lyme Disease, often also have abnormal heavy metal levels. The sicker the individual, the more common it appears to be. We also find that when a patient is co-infected with things like Babesia, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, or Bartonella, that this compounds the problem. We prefer to use gentle methods of Chelation, but we will prescribe DMSA if necessary and pulse the protocol accordingly."
What it comes down to is this. We were told Lyme Disease wasn't serious. It is. We were told co-infections aren't very serious, they are. We were told no conspiracy existed, a conspiracy was found by the Attorney General of Connecticut involving conflicts of interest. We're told a lot of things, but Lyme Disease defies the nature of what seems reasonable. It constantly creates deeper and deeper controversy the deeper your dig. Patients with Lyme Disease -- for whatever reason -- are much much more sensitive to environmental toxicity, infection, and stress. We don't understand why.
We're told a lot of things, and science doesn't have a whole lot of answers for us that aren't tainted by someone's agenda.
If my specialist recommends I have Amalgams out, I'd do it. If my LLMD told me it wasn't a big deal, I'd probably listen to him/her if I trusted them and the routine they had me on was already working.
Fortunately, I never even had cavities growing up, and I still don't. I was tested however, and sadly I did in-fact have high levels of Lead, Mercury, Cadmium, and Aluminum. I did chelation for about 6 months. Unfortunately this did not change my symptom picture. Medicare paid for the testing and treatment.
At any rate Nicholas Davis, DDS, president of the American Academy of Cosmetic Dentistry says: " As far as mercury in fillings goes, "If I had immune problems or anything that would make me subject to getting an infection, I would do anything I could to boost my immune system and decrease my chance of infection including purging all metals from my mouth," Davis tells WebMD. But "for the general public, mercury in fillings is not that much of a problem."
This article is pretty interesting and covers the different view points over the issue. I lean towards having them removed when Lyme Disease and neurological symptoms are involved.
posted
I had my amalgams removed about 8 yrs ago. Funny that that is when I turned the corner with my Lyme disease treatment.
I never said anything to my dentist about my illness. I found out that the amalgams could be part of my problem and began searching for a biological dentist to remove them.
I'm glad I did it.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
I have been interested in doing this for quite a few years now, but had forgotten about it with everything else going on.
I'm in Maryland. Anyone know of a good holistic dentist that does mercury filling removals?
Posts: 217 | From Earth | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:But "for the general public, mercury in fillings is not that much of a problem."
It's not that much of a problem until it becomes a problem.
It seems that this Dr. is confused about know which came first, the chicken, or the egg.
It's the mercury exposure that causes terrain issues in the stomach which lead to digestive problems, which lead to a compromised immune system. Amalgam fillings are the first domino that sends the rest of them tumbling.
quote:I'm in Maryland. Anyone know of a good holistic dentist that does mercury filling removals?
If you contact DAMS International, they will mail you a list of practitioners in your area. This web page contains the phone number: http://www.flcv.com/dams.html
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
For those of you who have had mercury removal would you mind sharing the cost of your procedure?
I'm trying to get an idea of how much per tooth I would be looking at as I do not have dental insurance at the moment.
If you know of any good dental insurance that would be great too!
Posts: 217 | From Earth | Registered: Feb 2010
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Problems are not eliminated simply be removing the amalgams. The toxic metals/mercury move into the central nervous system within hours of the installation of the amalgams. This is clearly evidenced by the Lorscheider, etc. study and all the other research available. To eliminate metals, detox has to be done addressing all the body. It can take months or years. If not removed/detoxed/, often problems will persist and fungal problems becoming more severe to the point where they eventually penetrate anywhere and become systemic. Fungi and mold problems are the worst - they definitely can move into the brain.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
The estimate I received was $30,0000.00 for my case. That includes the removal and replacement of 3 teeth with amalgam fillings, the removal of a root canal tooth replaced by bridge and crowns of two adjacent teeth, removal of 7 crowns with amalgam buildups underneath, replaced with composite buildups and porcelain crowns, and bridging of a missing molar.
I would not consider replacing any missing teeth with an implant after reading about the risks pointed out by DAMS International which are as follows:
1. The bite can be too hard, the fixture, collar, and tooth system lacks the periodontal ligament shock-absorbing cushion that a natural tooth has.
2. The gums do not snug up to an implant the way they do with a natural tooth, leaving an opening for bacteria to travel down into the jawbone.
3. Patients who have lost teeth may not have properly healthy jawbones for holding the implant. Smokers, diabetics, people with osteoarthritis, periodontal disease or jawbone disease are poor risks for implants.
4. There is the concern over the implantation of the titanium or titanium-aluminum-vandadium alloy into a jawbone. It raises allergy and toxicity concerns. The titanium alloy is used instead of pure titanium in order to decrease susceptibility to corrosion and to improve the material's strength. But vanadium and aluminum need to be avoided because of toxicity concerns. Even titanium can cause allergic reaction in a significant fraction of the population. Hal Huggins says "I have personally seen multiple sclerosis stimulated within one week of placing titanium implants. The compatibility test showed titanium to be compatible, yet it caused MS." Some dentists are using zirconia as a better alternative to the metal base.
5. Given that the typical life span of a tooth implant is 10 years, neither the high cost, nor the risks are justifiable.
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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lymie_in_md
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Member # 14197
posted
I spent about 8k for 3 amalgams, 4 cavitations, one root canal retreated, and a TMJ support device. I had a test called a heart rate variability to show level of health. According to the test I was very very ill. The cavitation were extremely necessary for me, I had a definite jaw infection, I noticed the biggest changes from those procedures. I noticed a big improvement after all that was done about 50%.
I'm now well, and looking to get even better, I know that wouldn't be the case without addressing my dental situation.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Wow, $30k? What an insane pricetag for dental work. Not fair.
quote:Originally posted by chaps: The estimate I received was $30,0000.00 for my case. That includes the removal and replacement of 3 teeth with amalgam fillings, the removal of a root canal tooth replaced by bridge and crowns of two adjacent teeth, removal of 7 crowns with amalgam buildups underneath, replaced with composite buildups and porcelain crowns, and bridging of a missing molar.
I would not consider replacing any missing teeth with an implant after reading about the risks pointed out by DAMS International which are as follows:
1. The bite can be too hard, the fixture, collar, and tooth system lacks the periodontal ligament shock-absorbing cushion that a natural tooth has.
2. The gums do not snug up to an implant the way they do with a natural tooth, leaving an opening for bacteria to travel down into the jawbone.
3. Patients who have lost teeth may not have properly healthy jawbones for holding the implant. Smokers, diabetics, people with osteoarthritis, periodontal disease or jawbone disease are poor risks for implants.
4. There is the concern over the implantation of the titanium or titanium-aluminum-vandadium alloy into a jawbone. It raises allergy and toxicity concerns. The titanium alloy is used instead of pure titanium in order to decrease susceptibility to corrosion and to improve the material's strength. But vanadium and aluminum need to be avoided because of toxicity concerns. Even titanium can cause allergic reaction in a significant fraction of the population. Hal Huggins says "I have personally seen multiple sclerosis stimulated within one week of placing titanium implants. The compatibility test showed titanium to be compatible, yet it caused MS." Some dentists are using zirconia as a better alternative to the metal base.
5. Given that the typical life span of a tooth implant is 10 years, neither the high cost, nor the risks are justifiable.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Wow, $30k? What an insane pricetag for dental work. Not fair.
quote:Originally posted by chaps: The estimate I received was $30,0000.00 for my case. That includes the removal and replacement of 3 teeth with amalgam fillings, the removal of a root canal tooth replaced by bridge and crowns of two adjacent teeth, removal of 7 crowns with amalgam buildups underneath, replaced with composite buildups and porcelain crowns, and bridging of a missing molar.
I would not consider replacing any missing teeth with an implant after reading about the risks pointed out by DAMS International which are as follows:
1. The bite can be too hard, the fixture, collar, and tooth system lacks the periodontal ligament shock-absorbing cushion that a natural tooth has.
2. The gums do not snug up to an implant the way they do with a natural tooth, leaving an opening for bacteria to travel down into the jawbone.
3. Patients who have lost teeth may not have properly healthy jawbones for holding the implant. Smokers, diabetics, people with osteoarthritis, periodontal disease or jawbone disease are poor risks for implants.
4. There is the concern over the implantation of the titanium or titanium-aluminum-vandadium alloy into a jawbone. It raises allergy and toxicity concerns. The titanium alloy is used instead of pure titanium in order to decrease susceptibility to corrosion and to improve the material's strength. But vanadium and aluminum need to be avoided because of toxicity concerns. Even titanium can cause allergic reaction in a significant fraction of the population. Hal Huggins says "I have personally seen multiple sclerosis stimulated within one week of placing titanium implants. The compatibility test showed titanium to be compatible, yet it caused MS." Some dentists are using zirconia as a better alternative to the metal base.
5. Given that the typical life span of a tooth implant is 10 years, neither the high cost, nor the risks are justifiable.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
Gigi that is true, but one must start somewhere, then follow through with other detox methods.
Chaps and LymieMD - thanks for the info. Wow! I thought it would be quite expensive. Luckily, I don't have that many issues, so I'll look into it after more research on the subject and the dentists I have listed.
Posts: 217 | From Earth | Registered: Feb 2010
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stymielymie
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Member # 10044
posted
My dental insurance plan only applies to dentists who are part of their network. The only dentists who are part of their network are the newbies right out of dental school.
Established dentists who aren't desperate to build their practices are too greedy to be part of an insurance network and agree to their fee structures.
And just like homeopathic physicians, most holistic dentists (at least the ones around here) don't want to hear the word insurance.
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
Fortunately, I had this work done in 1991, so my biological dentist did accept insurance. No telling if he still does .... we've moved since then.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
For me, the bottom line is that every tooth in my head needs something done to it. Fortunately, I have only one root canal tooth that needs to be removed. Crowns will be placed on the adjacent teeth and the missing tooth will be replaced via bridge, instead of putting in an implant. That 3-tooth bridge is going to cost a pretty penny. It all averages out to more than a thousand per tooth.
What makes it so expensive is that metal-free restorations are more expensive than composites. And this dentist is high-priced. It's because he's very good and he's also located in an area where the social elite reside.
Sadly, in our society, taking care of one's health is becoming a luxury only affordable to the wealthiest Americans. And based on recent events, it looks like this problem is only going to get worse.
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
I was looking up NAC in the search section and found this post. Glad I did, I'm getting all my amalgams replaced in January by a Huggins protocol following dentist.
I had the patience to read every post. Found it quite amusing that Mr. Bigz never came back with any scientific research.
Just felt like resurrecting an awesome fun filled informative post on amalgams.
Wondering if I should wait to take NAC until after my procedure? Or during? Or is it ok to take now...?
posted
Scientific research, sounds like a plan. Now lets talk the millions of Americans who have perfect health and never had there fillings removed. I bet you have friends and family who are in that bunch. NOW lets talk chronic Lyme.
Were you hospitalized for at least 2 weeks? Were you still able to walk and take meds by yourself?
Did you have a pacemaker installed?
Were you confined to a wheelchair?
The list could go on and on for chronic lyme. Feeling sick does not come close to chronic lyme.
There is more Mercury in the air then what comes off a persons fillings in over 80% of the states in the USA.
ALSO many chronic lyme suffers have been given there health back without many of the protocols SOME patients used here.
If your a new lyme patient, you do not have to run out and sell your home to get your teeth redone.
Find a good doctor that knows lyme disease. There are many patients on this site who indeed are hypochondriacs. They have been here for years and have taken about anything someone puts on the board.
Though there is good advice here there is much thats not needed. I have heard from many new lyme patients the things they read here scare them and they have no hope in getting well.
Many chronic lyme patients are well today and they did not have to take horse or pig wormer...etc..
I urge you to find a lyme literate doctor and follow his or her protocol.
As far as staying on topic look at all the healthy people in this world with Mercury fillings.
The difference between them and yourself is a tick bite.
There is a lot of good help and protocols here. It is probably the best site on the web, but you don't have to go as far as some to become well.
BB, is a bacterial infection, you need antibiotics, and vitamins that boost the immune system.
I would like to see a very comprehensive 7 day urine analysis of some of these patients full of Mercury because I bet most never even had one.
But their full of Mercury and won't get well to many on this board.
If you are new there is hope you DO NOT need to go to Germany...etc..to get well.
Find a decent lyme doctor.
If you think your fillings are effecting you that bad have a 7 or 10 day urine sample sent to Cleveland Clinic, Mayo Clinic or any good establishment.
Posts: 510 | From NEVERLAND.USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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ukcarry
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18147
posted
I understand that some dentists and others whose own health does not seem to have been impacted by a mouthful of amalgams would be sceptical.....
My take on this is that some people's immune systems, perhaps for genetic detox reasons, seem to be able to handle processing mercury better than others.
I was diagnosed as mercury-sensitive by the late Jack Levinson, author of 'Menace in the Mouth', advisor to the 1990's 'Panorama' BBC 1 TV programme of the same name, former President of the British Society for Mercury Free Dentistry, Committee Member of the Environmental Medicine Foundation and member of the British Dental Editors Forum.
He has a terrific 'CV', including having been responsible for the dental sections of the Allergy and Environmental Medicine Depts. of the Wellington and Lister Hospitals.
I saw him at the end of his career, when he was still acting as advisor to many clinics, whilst running a practice confined to testing for mercury toxicity and advising patients and dentists on protective procedures.
His testing led to the firm conclusion that, although reaction to mercury in acute cases is dose-dependent, in chronic cases, it is dependent on dose [ie number of fillings], length of time of exposure and host resistance [health of patient].
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
I had a root canal exactly 1 year ago. It was during a crown replacement and there was no infection. The dentist said that the drilling had gone so close the root that a root canal would be necessary in a few months. I knew no better and allowed her to proceed. I've had no problems since.
Question: Sine there was no infection, would it be advisable to remove this tooth? Or should I adopt a 'wait and see' approach, assuming I need to be on the lookout for jaw pain?
Sue
Posts: 226 | From Princeton | Registered: Oct 2010
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posted
8man I'm not a hypochondriac, I have a great Lyme literate doc, and the last time I got one tiny amalgam replaced by a regular dentist, I would up in the ER. Guess what, they couldn't figure out why.
I'm a fairly functional chronic Lyme patient but I do feel like amalgam replacement is a good choice for me.
Yea I have a lot of family members with amalgam fillings that are perfectly "healthy". My mom is so healthy she has high chlestorol high blood pressure fibromyalgia etc etc. my dad can smoke and drink not exercise and all that's wrong with him so far is high blood pressure.
There Are tons of healthy people with amalgams, everyone thinks I look healthy as a bright pink crying new born. I'm on abx, I'm on herbs, im addressing gut issues and my high viral/pathogen load with a trained doctor.
My trained doctor doesn't tell me I have to get this amalgam replaced, she's seen people get well without doing it . It's a choice people make. I for one choose to lessen my toxic load so that I can detox dead borellia Bart and babs instead of detoxing mercury.
Maybe I'm not glad I resurrected this post. Next time I'm up late with a tindamax headache I'll make sure to not surf lymenet.
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Yes, Hg is one of the things that upregulates Hsp70.
But we have to deal with Bb's Hsp60 too.
Bb is triggering cell survival.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Question: Sine there was no infection, would it be advisable to remove this tooth? Or should I adopt a 'wait and see' approach, assuming I need to be on the lookout for jaw pain?
The problem with root canals is that even though they may be or are already failing, they do not hurt. I had many of them and while the rest of my body was in pain, I had no pain in my jaw or mouth. Root canals are dead teeth and create thioether and mercaptans, according to research one of the worst carcinogens. How much the body can deal with is the next question.
Take care.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Many people have helped thousands of patients on this site I check it every once in awhile. I have been helping patients on the net since 1996 . I started in the Massachusetts Neuro web Forums.
I have emailed so many politicians and had many friends and relatives help also on issues with lyme bills etc. Many of the people here on lymenet have done the same and more.
I will agree that flushing toxins helps but check out how much mercury your breathing just in the air in your area.
Since all these treatments started showing up here a local doctor started countering them. A few patients who felt mercury was not curing them had the 10 day urine test sent to CCF.
They were all by far under the limit. Most had a more severe deficiency, vitamin D. And Calcium in most women.
You can shed toxins 5x faster drinking as much magic elixir as possible. (WATER).
Even a healthy person is going to feel much wellness keeping their body as clean as possible.
But let me tell you many chronic lyme patients are 95% well again, they didn't have to buy a solid foam mattress, rip the electric wires out of the walls of their house, etc.
As far as worms, parasites, etc. They will die from the antibiotics. Antibiotics is poison to the body and the worms, parasites, and even the BB itself.
If you want to kill the unknown viruses, parasites, yeast and all the other parts of this soup that the tick gave your body learn to make your OWN colloidal silver.
You will not turn blue, but buying it will break you ,making it costs about $1 a gallon.
If for a minute you think that the electric in your house, your fillings etc. are keeping you from getting better on a good broad treatment plan then going by all your friends as control units they should be as sick as a chronic lyme patient.
BUT since they are healthy and happy, and have a life, believe me its the tick soup you need to treat. And since 1985 I have known many lyme patients who are well with mercury fillings. And they have lights on in their homes.
How about this, did you know if you treat your pain symptoms ,along with the lyme many have gotten well faster. Pain causes stress, stress slows or even reverses anything you try to do to get better. Treat the pain kill the bacteria and unknown viruses and you will have your life back.
If the 20 or better lyme patients I have known in the last 3 years had even a medial mercury level I would pay the $650 dollars to go listen to this doctor speak.
Like I have said if your convinced your full of mercury have the 7 or 10 day urine panel ran. Not the hair test it will not show as high as the urine.
Certainly some have mercury go into there organs, BUT I can tell you you put far worse things in your body that it doesn't flush as easy as it does what little mercury there is. OSHA found work limits in mills at as high as 50% in workers with no mercury fillings. The non factory study patients tested at like 3.5 %, WITH the average of 6 fillings.
If mercury fillings caused MS, and all these other diseases think how many of your friends would be severely debilitated. How many of your nieces, or nephews, or own children are deathly ill from your mercury fillings?
If you go by some of these %s of poorly documented studies these people would be in a far worse state of health than the average lyme patient. BUT again look around these people are healthy, they ride bikes, horses, ski, they have a fun life full of energy.
Posts: 510 | From NEVERLAND.USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
It's a good thing, 8man12, that we all have a choice.
The important thing is learning and knowledge.
I would hate to see my grandchildren go through what I went through or what my husband went through before he finally lost his battle with death less than a month ago. He was highly toxic with lead - mostly from his exposure during WWII and the added mercury didn't help. It takes a long time to get rid of it all, once you finally figure it out, and sadly he did not have enough time to accomplish that. He paid with his life. And I lost my life partner.
Lyme will survive beautifully in a metal toxic body. As I watch people passing me in the street, few look like they are riding horses and riding bikes and I certainly don't see many "fun life full of energy". Maybe you live in a different world where everyone is still young and beautiful.
I would hate to tell the parents and the children who suffer from autism that what they are suffering from was Lyme and could not possibly also be caused by their mother's exposure to amalgam as well as other environmental toxins, because none of them would ever be cured.
Have you ever watched a group of two or three autistic children, next to each other. Say thank you that you are not the one who has to deal with this year in and year out. I have seen them when they arrive with their parents as they are treated for their various problems. All of them also suffer from Lyme and some of the other infections we all know enough about. Lyme only survives in a metal and chemical toxic body
Lyme wasn't all that common before the seventies when the phthalates started to invade our lives and with them more toxic metals and chemicals. The children were vaccinated - today they have about 30some vaccinations and more before they enter school. I am sure you also have heard of thimerisol in vaccines? If not, look it up.
I found my own seven week old son dead in his bed less than eight hours after his morning vaccination, preserved with thimerisol --- mercury. That was some 45 years ago and believe it, I have yet to forget that and never will until they day I close my eyes for the last time.
I don't need any studies. Dr. K. has collected thousands of studies over the last 35 years. My doctor doesn't need any more studies. He has been fighting mercury for 30some years. For 15 years, I have watched people appear at my doctor's office so ill that is is depressing, and I would encourage you to show up there some day and tell them what you are trying to tell us here. I have held many by the hand over the years helping them through the misery of detoxing these poisons and I really get quite upset when I find these naive comments from you making sweet shipping cream out of methyl mercury. There is not much worse than having your brain destroyed by mercury and the family having to face their loved one with dementia and Alzheimers at a time when they should be able to enjoy their golden years.
Kindly do a reality check before you add any more nonsense to this thread
Mercury is a killer and opens the door for all infections, including Lyme and the disease called cancer. "They" don't ride bikes and horses, nor are they full of life and energy. They eventually die a miserable death unless they find a doctor who knows better. It's well worth for any medical professional to pay the sixhundredandfifty dollars to take a three day time-out and learn how to do it to help their sick patients get their life back before it's too late.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
As I sit here typing there is not 1 sick person on my street. My whole family is healthy, they do all the things I mentioned and more. All have some mercury fillings. Their children and my children were exceptional athletes.
The Salk vaccine gave us more problems than anything you can imagine. Thats why to treat lyme or any infection you have to super boost the immune system. High dose vitamin C works well even without the salt. You have to build up slowly.
I am giving you numbers and I'm certain patients here can do there own. All they have to do is look around them. For every chronic sick person in this country there is probably 1k or more who are fine.
Why are these lyme patients testing far below the cutoff for mercury levels?
I know many lyme patients who were chronic, some had to be hospitalized numerous times for weeks, and you don't stay in a hospital if your not very sick, insurances do not allow it. One had to have her knees broke 4 times and today she is well. A good antibiotic regimen, some herbs, or Colloidal Silver made in house, added for viruses and all the other unknown that even most LLMDs do not test for,or wouldn't even know to test for because many are unknown to man at this time.
I also am not arguing I am posting this so patients do not think the only way to be cured is to near shut yourself off from the world. And think they need to rob a bank.
As far as electric fields effecting the body there was a study done on workers at large grocery stores, etc, that has florescent lighting.
Again these people are healthy, sure some have problems but mercury or even BB, is not the cause for some of these conditions.
Also many that have went the mercury route that were severely chronic labeled lyme did no better as far as being cured.
Now studies do show mercury in many patients with illnesses but 7 out of 10 with the same illness rid the mercury from there body or show only slight levels of it. The other 3 area still below the control level by a long shot.
Even without the fillings what do you do for air? Mercury is in the air we breath.
Every lyme patient that had the urine panel done had super small amounts of mercury in them, how do we explain this and does this doctor run the 7 or 10 day test it should be no shorter than 7 days but should be administered before the patient goes overboard trying to detox and depletes many nutrients needed along with the tiny amount of mercury to get well.
When these posts get 25 hits and a new lyme patient comes to this site many think they need all these treatments and they do not have the cash for it. It would be nice if we had a advanced treatment topic that patients could take the big leap if there financially able to.
You would not believe patients I have sent here through the years that were near suicidal because they thought the only way to get better was these certain expensive treatments.
It happened last month that is why I am posting and telling these patients the basic regime has cured or gave many most of their lives back.
Look through the last 7 years of all your posts from electronic stimulating machines to mercury, etc. Lyme is treatable, and some do have complicated cases that require far more treatment. But it can and has been treated as I said above. I have talked to many who even went to Germany and it was a bust, they got no better.
The Mattman test the doctor talks about, a PA. University studied three pictures that were given to patients showing the BB in their cells, etc. They were the exact same. How do you explain this? And the man believes he is picking up where she left off.
Also be it cancer, etc, everyone has to die sometime, the old will die and the young may die.
I would chalk most of today's cancers far more to the contaminated Salk Vaccine then to mercury.
I am very sorry to hear about your husband. Prayers are sent, and may God give you the strength to go on, one day you will be reunited where there's no pain and sickness, or sorrow.
Just because some are allowed to force us to breath mercury polluted air does not mean that it makes sense for us to allow even more mercury (a potent neurotoxin) into our bodies.
By condoning/allowing amalgams we are putting even more mercury into the environment due to the waste that is created by amalgams.
8man wrote: There are many patients on this site who indeed are hypochondriacs.
Like so many misguided medical personell you must be under the impression that if the medical community does not know about it then it does not exist!
Far too often the patient is blamed if they don't get well with the knowledge and treatments that are currently accepted by the allopathic community.
If someone does not get well with one size fits all then there is a need to look for complicating factors because we don't know everything there is to know.
As pointed out previously, many very good LLMD's consider mercury when treating chronic lyme patients. It has been their clinical experience that mercury can make it hard to impossible to get rid of lyme in some patients.
I understand your concern but to be honest it is a fact that mercury is a potent neurotoxin. It is a fact that it causes issues with the immune system. It likely causes difficulty getting rid of borrelia according to the study I posted.
It does not make sense for anyone with chronic lyme disease to think it is OK to put a toxin that helps the bacteria survive into their body. It is just plain common sense.
8man wrote: As far as worms, parasites, etc. They will die from the antibiotics. Antibiotics is poison to the body and the worms, parasites, and even the BB itself.
Abx may help get rid of some parasites but most parasites need anti-parasitic drugs that target them specifically. I'd been on numerous abx for 2 years when I started prescription anti-parasitics. I had great improvement with treatment for parasites.
As I sit here typing my whole family is sick and most have amalgams. I don't know how much of their illness is caused or exacerbated by amalgams but it's a no brainer that adding a potent toxin for the body to deal with makes it even harder for a person with a chronic illness to get well.
Your neighbors must be very open to tell you all their medical problems. I only know a few neighbors well enough to know such personal details and one of them has an illness of unknown cause. The person who lived in the same house before them also had an illness of unknown cause.
More power to you if you can get completely well with abx and supplements alone. I'm honestly happy for you BUT shame on you for telling those who don't get well as easily that they are hypochondriacs.
Body terrain has everything to do with whether a person gets well easily or not and part of that includes dealing with heavy metals.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Sorry you took it wrong I am looking for the study that showed even if the fillings are removed the mercury we come into contact everyday over a short period of time makes the metel in our mouths minute. One of the lyme patients was high, he ate tuna fish constantly. If it helps you thats fine. I am just putting the numbers in front of every lyme patient that comes here. I am very sorry your family is all ill with this disease I have thousands of publications on a disc in my SDB at the bank from years ago when I was far more into lyme activism. But as i said look at your neighbors your telling me they are all ill and do not live a normal life. I am certain we all know what a normal life is we all had one before a tick took it from us...
Now if you lived in Eastern PA. or CT. I could believe everyone on your street may have lyme disease or other TBDs.
There has been many chronic lyme patients who have gotten at least 85% better years before all this came about. How do we explain that since we didnt have any idea about metals.
Over all, the changes in environmental mercury levels have been dramatic. Over the past 100 years, there has been a 30-fold increase in mercury deposition, 70 percent of which is from human sources. In fact, there was an exponential peak in mercury occurring in the last 40 years due to major industrialization. Much of this mercury comes from coal-fired industrial plants and from chlor-alkali plants that use mercury in the process of making chlorine used in plastics, pesticides, PVC pipes, and more.
One note of hope was the reduction in industrial mercury emissions from 220 million pounds to 120 million pounds a year over the last 10 years. But that�s small consolation when we�re talking about a substance that is toxic in parts per million, not in millions of pounds.
And the more mercury we are exposed to, the more we are likely we are to be toxic.
Posts: 510 | From NEVERLAND.USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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jackie51
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14233
posted
I can't believe I just read all that.
Gigi--I did not know that you lost a baby so many years ago. I am so sorry.
Posts: 1374 | From Crazy Town | Registered: Dec 2007
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Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Dear Friends,
For about the last 8 months, I have been doing the chlorella and cilantro metals brain detox from Dr. K that GiGi recommends. I had already had my amalgam fillings replaced and had months-long chelation twice and completed Allergie-Immune, so it seemed relatively safe for me to embark on this therapy.
It is the ONLY treatment I have done for Lyme since I got a positive test in 2005 where I have had consistent improvement on a daily basis. My level of brain fog was so bad by 2008 that I'd given up any study, as I couldn't remember anything I read for more than a few minutes. Now, I am studying again with success and can do mentally intensive tasks like managing finances, which I had also given up.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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ukcarry
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18147
posted
Very good post, Terry.
8Man12, some people do seem to cope with mercury exposure better than others, but that does not mean that mercury is therefore harmless. I think that, as well as length time and quantity of exposure, it does depend a lot on your genetic capacity to detox and to whether or not you have acquired a sensitivity to mercury.
The Detoxigenomic test I took earlier this year showed, for example, that I have an absent gene for making glutathione, the major detoxifier, and therefore it is not surprising that I am less able to cope with heavy metals and other chemicals than some other people.
Many other people with Lyme seem to have this genomic polymorphism too and so it is just too simplistic to assume that mercury is causing no problems because there are people exposed to it who are apparently healthy.
[ 11-25-2011, 06:45 AM: Message edited by: ukcarry ]
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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ukcarry
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18147
posted
Cass A, how rewarding for you! I am so pleased that you have been able to see these improvements to brain fog,
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