Topic: article - �Lyme neurotoxin detoxing� is dangerous quackery
sparkle7
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bigstan - thanks for the post. I've been reading about this. It's sort of a complex explanation. Are there any treatment ideas based on this area?
Bea - I have to do more research on quinolinic acid. I don't know anything about that.
TerryK - I believe that the tests (cd3a & 4a - I think it was) Dr. Shoemaker uses for Lyme can also show a positive for CFS. How do we know it's specific for "Lyme biotoxins" & not something else? I was reading about it at about 3am last night & like I always say - I'm not a scientist.
I did do the full protocol with abx & Welchol back in the day. It didn't help me. I don't know if the concept of mold toxins can be applied to Lyme. Molds are very different than Lyme which is considered a bacteria.
I'm not really sure what Dr. Shoemaker's tests are picking up is specifically a Lyme toxin. I know some people get very ill from mold but we do have to be a bit cautious. People have been living around mold for 1000s of years.
I'm not sure why it's so devastating these days. It could be due to other contaminants or toxic chemicals. We have alot to weed through in our process of healing. I don't think it's a good idea to be paranoid about mold but we do have to be careful.
If these detox protocols help people - it's good. I just don't know if what they are labeling "Lyme biotoxin" is really that. On the unfortunate side, alot of doctors are making huge money from selling potentially false information.
This is what annoys me. We need to be able to separate the truth from the fiction in an objective manner. I'm not criticizing anyone for trying to get well as best as they know how.
MD from Maryland thinks Questran may be anti-inflammatory & that's why it seems to help. Many pharma drugs have off-lable applications.
Knowledge is power. We need to consider as many points of view as possible.
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TerryK
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sparkle wrote TerryK - I believe that the tests (cd3a & 4a - I think it was) Dr. Shoemaker uses for Lyme can also show a positive for CFS.
Those are just a few of the tests and those are used to diagnose hyperacute lyme disease. I expect that many illnesses that have overlapping symptoms could have similar test results because some people (like me) have been diagnosed with cfs when we actually have lyme. even if cfs is caused by some other infection there are some tests that are positive for more than one infection. the tests you mention have to do with immune system response. i don't know if they are problematic in cfs patients who don't have lyme.
sparkle wrote I did do the full protocol with abx & Welchol back in the day. It didn't help me.
the full protocol involves much more than welchol and abx. VEGF, MSH. MMP-9 are balanced and MARCONS are taken care of and I'm not sure if I'm missing something else. welchol must be taken 4x's per day and the source of toxins removed which means no mold exposure and lyme in remission.
sparkle wrote I don't know if the concept of mold toxins can be applied to Lyme. Molds are very different than Lyme which is considered a bacteria.
both toxins seem to cause similar symptoms and test results and respond to similar treatment probably at least in part because they both evoke cytokine production.
sparkle wrote I'm not really sure what Dr. S's tests are picking up is specifically a Lyme toxin. I know some people get very ill from mold but we do have to be a bit cautious. People have been living around mold for 1000s of years.
no, he's not measuring lyme toxins but the body's response to a certain group of toxins that evoke similar responses in the body.
sparkle wrote I'm not sure why it's so devastating these days. It could be due to other contaminants or toxic chemicals. We have alot to weed through in our process of healing. I don't think it's a good idea to be paranoid about mold but we do have to be careful.
I think mold has always been devastating under certain circumstances, there are 2 issues. mold is a problem for an estimated 1/3 of the population because of genetics. that 1/3 do not make enough antibodies to effeciently get rid of the toxins. the other issue is mold's effect on the immune system. it depresses the immune system which can be devasting.for people with lyme.
sparkle wrote I just don't know if what they are labeling "Lyme biotoxin" is really that.
i believe this is what makes the most sense based on the facts and experience with similar toxins.
sparkle wrote On the unfortunate side, alot of doctors are making huge money from selling potentially false information
my doctor treats me for biotoxins so that i can tolerate lyme treatment. i don't believe he makes much money on it at all if any. it's just part of lyme treatment for me.
sparkle wrote: MD from Maryland thinks Questran may be anti-inflammatory & that's why it seems to help. Many pharma drugs have off-lable applications
cytokines cause inflammation. cholestyramine helps by binding the toxins that cause increased cytokines thus lowering inflammation.
sparkle wrote We need to consider as many points of view as possible.
yes, i agree but unfortunately the author of the article is not well informed.
terry i'm not a doctor
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We all find or own methods or detoxing biotoxins or other toxins (or not).
My detox signs are very strange, and I haven't found anyone to compare myself to on Lyme or CFS groups and forums. I accept the fact that I am unique, and perhaps I have a unique toxin(s).
What worries me is my body eventually started dumping toxins so fast that my liver and kidneys were getting stressed, and there was nothing I could do to slow down the natural detoxification mechanisms of my body. While I say my liver and kidneys were stressed, that is related to labwork, and I was actually feeling much better day to day.
I also gained a lot of weight as I released toxins. Why exactly? I don't know, but I hear gaining weight is actually common. I hypothesize that since my body couldn't release everything at once, my body created new fat cells to sequester the remaining toxins.
Were they Lyme toxins? Were they mold toxins? Were they various toxins I accumulated over a period of time? Quite frankly, I don't know and I don't care.
And who is to say that CFS/XMRV isn't what is driving chronic Lyme. The Dr. B we all know thinks that perhaps 100% of those with chronic Lyme have XMRV or MLV related viruses. The other Dr. B at ILADS had the same stance. If I recall correctly, I think he said anti-retrovirals help about 1/3 of his chronic Lyme patients recover.
Sam Donta, who resigned from the IDSA panel in 2000 has stated that you can't distinguish CFS from Chronic Lyme. However, Sam Donta is a believer in chronic Lyme disease.
This seems to make sense to me if the two diseases are related. It's actually been my belief before I heard anything from Dr. B and Dr. B.
So in reply to some of Sparkle's comments, I don't understand why you assume that Lyme Disease and CFS/XMRV are probably are not associated. Maybe they aren't, but the current evidence (which is very little) makes me believe there is an association. It would be nice to see a study, but at the same time, it would be very hard since the FDA approved commercial kits and other kits we use to detect the Lyme spirochete are inadequate to say the least. It may be a while until we see a proper study.
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Paul
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sparkle7
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TerryK - I'm glad your treatment is helping. It seems that there would be other doctors or scientists who have findings similar to Dr. S in regards to this Lyme biotoxin.
Maybe there's some bottleneck with researchers in this area? I don't know. I was trying a number of things at the time I was doing the Welchol based on my doctor's advice. Lots of money came & went on treatment during this time with very little result...
If you look into some articles about the LYMErix vaccine, you will see that the HLA-DR4 gene was discussed as to why some people ended up with severe Lyme arthritis from the vaccine. I didn't see any mention of mold or a Lyme biotoxin, though.
This was over 10 years ago, I think. One would think that there should be more research in this area since then... I don't know why all of the work with Lyme biotoxins seems to be coming from only one source - Dr. S.
This is a little suspicious to me. If this were the way to go, why aren't more scientists going down this path to continue with this line of thinking? I just see Dr. Shoemaker's website & excerpts from the same site all over the web about Lyme biotoxins.
kday - it isn't a big stretch in my mind from Lyme to XMRV to Fibro or CFS, MS, ALS, etc. I had multiple diagnosis's. It's just that the claim is that the Lyme biotoxin is what is making people ill & we have to go about a specific protocol to get it out.
Many of us may or may not even have Lyme. We don't know since there are still no really accurate tests. Maybe you could tell if you had XMRV - but there is no treatment for it that I know of. A few ideas are being tossed around but I don't think there is a specific protocol.
So, if it's XMRV that's making us ill - what about the Lyme toxin? Is that yesterday's news? I'm not trying to be sarcastic but the issue is whether there really is a Lyme toxin that needs removal from the body or if there is some way to supplement the gene which may be deficient & not able to handle the toxin.
Also - just a thought... sometimes hormone fluctuations can cause weight gain. Have you looked into that? These illnesses are notorious for adverse effects on the hormones. It may not be fat sequestering the toxins... Could be a number of things that may cause you to gain weight.
TerryK
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kday wrote: I also gained a lot of weight as I released toxins.
Lyme toxins create leptin resistance. this could be part of the problem. my leptin is 3x's what it should be which indicates leptin resistance. goes along wiht biotoxic illness.
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sparkle7
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Some further info (not specifically about Lyme biotoxins) - just one person's opinion of "the" mold doctor....
posted
"Leptin resistance is associated with the inability to lose weight and is characterized by excess abdominal fat."
This seems to fit perfectly as this is where the weight is. It isn't in my face, arms, or legs. Strangely, many people even say they can't tell even though I had to get bigger pants. You can definitely see lots of fat in my abdominal area when taking off my shirt as I used to be lean there.
TerryK - I'll see if my CFS doc can order a test for leptin resistance next visit. He is usually up to date with all the tests.
Did you do anything for your leptin resistance?
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TerryK
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spark - probably a lot of things can cause leptin resistance, I have high leptin andmany other abnormalities that are part of the biotoxin evaluation.
just curious. have you had any of the testing for biotoxic illness. MMP-9, VEGF. MSH. leptin etc... If so, what were your results?
kday - the test specifics are in the lab testing info I gave earlier. specifies all the details.
There is another product called leptin sense by precision herbs. Nutramedix has a product but I can;t remember the name off hand.
I've got to stop typing for awhile. Using one hand only is making my shoulder hurt.
Terry
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sparkle7
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No, I haven't had the tests. After finding out about all of this (no "proof" of a Lyme biotoxin) - I'm kind of skeptical that this is worth exploring.
I guess the big one I would be interested in would be HLA-DR4... I never had allergies (except when I was eating alot of raw garlic) & I don't think I have any big issues with mold if that's any indication.
I did give it a shot & it didn't seem to get me anywhere. I wish i spent the money on going on a vacation to Hawaii instead - LOL
I seem to have the greatest results from treating parasites. I was doing the salt/c protocol for a bit but switched over to Parastroy. It's strong stuff for me. I don't feel the need to get into the genetic stuff at the moment.
Innately, I think if you get rid of the offending organism, you will feel better. It's just difficult to find exactly what is causing the problem.
Getting rid of parasites takes time. I'm going with that for now. Maybe at some time in the future I'll look into XMRV if the parasite treatment doesn't do it...
There's no real treatment for XMRV - so, it's not a big priority for me at the moment.
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Keebler
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- There is very real treatment for XMRV - retroviral therapy, similar to HIV Cocktails. -
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sparkle7
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As far as I know, the anti-retrovirals are still in the testing phase. I don't think they have "found the cure" as of yet.
As far as I have been reading about this biotoxin issue, LymeMD blog seems to have the best perspective (in my opinion). This post was quite interesting...
Spirochete Associated Immune Dysregulation- A new paradigm
I just don't think it's about a biotoxin. If there are some further studies about it by some people other than Dr. Shoemaker or the other "S" doctor - I'd like to see them.
quote:Originally posted by sparkle7: As far as I know, the anti-retrovirals are still in the testing phase. I don't think they have "found the cure" as of yet.
As far as I have been reading about this biotoxin issue, LymeMD blog seems to have the best perspective (in my opinion). This post was quite interesting...
Spirochete Associated Immune Dysregulation- A new paradigm
I just don't think it's about a biotoxin. If there are some further studies about it by some people other than Dr. Shoemaker or the other "S" doctor - I'd like to see them.
I also agree with his statement that "Host factors such as exposure to toxins and stress may very well play an important role in some cases."
Not every case is the same. However, we abandoned the terrain theory many years ago, so we have some of the "if it applies to you, it would apply to me" thinking going on.
While you may or may not have a problem with biotoxins, I do. It's not a religious belief. It's not group think. As weird as it may sound to you, I actually witnessed toxins pouring from my body. After a while, it taxed my kidneys and liver a bit (but they are fine).
I don't find anyone I can compare myself with. I tried finding people with similar detox experiences. I couldn't. I think I am somewhat unique in my experience.
Anyway, my urine was so dark and concentrated for a while, I had to drink at least 3 liters of water a day (two 1.5 liter bottles) to dilute it or else I would retain fluid. It also started to get very foamy at times. In one sense, I really thought something was going wrong with me, and in another sense, I was feeling better. It didn't even make sense to me.
I had labs done and UAs multiple times. There wasn't findings that were too significant. I even bought my own UA kit.
My lunulae (half moons) have started to come back very large on my thumbs, and are appearing on my index and middle fingers now. Without methylation treatment, I had no moons, even on my thumbs. I think the B12 brought the moons back on the thumbs some, but when stopping it for a bit, they'd disappear again. I am not currently taking B12, etc.
Toxins actually started pooring after metal chelation, and I didn't feel the need to take the methyl B12, folate, P5P, etc. I would never forget to take these supplements, because they were the only things that greatly reduced my anxiety and malaise feelings. Honestly, benzodiazepines don't even compare in terms of effectiveness.
Now why did I suddenly start dumping toxins? I think it was because of chelation, but I guess I can't know for sure.
I do worry a little bit about the health of my kidneys after all this detox, and I don't like the fact that I put on extra 30 pounds (mostly in the belly).
Skeptics will remain skeptics, and that's fine. If you find out that you do indeed have biotoxin accumulation that's treated, I think you would think to yourself, "Oh, that's what they meant." If you don't have an issue, I would expect you to remain skeptical.
Since I experienced massive biotoxin detox first hand and feel better from it, there is no reason for me to be skeptical since I feel that I know the truth.
Sorry for the more detailed story. At least I didn't include pictures.
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sparkle7
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I'm sort of the kind of person who is contrarian. I posted this to see if people would either defend the Lyme biotoxins idea or agree that there's not enough data. I like to be proven wrong if it helps get people better.
I would like to see the "quackery" issue dismissed but i haven't seen any real proof that Lyme biotoxins exist. Quackery is a strong term. I figured it would get people thinking.
kday - re: Now why did I suddenly start dumping toxins? I think it was because of chelation, but I guess I can't know for sure.
Maybe the toxins were heavy metals? Isn't that the point with chelation? How do you know they were specifically Lyme biotoxins?
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Keebler
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- I think it is inflammatory to get the "quackery" issue going. It's not a correct, fair or accurate assessment of those professionals who HAVE studied the complexity of toxicity of borrelia.
By doing a full study of microbiology of all toxic infections, much could be learned and be time better spent than looking to start a fight. If you don't believe it, do what you find best for your own treatment.
But it is simply not accurate to charge those who have studied and try to help patients with matters of toxicity as quacks. -
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seekhelp
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Uh oh...fight fight fight [everyone running to the playground] Kidding. This thread can go to eternity I'm guessing.
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sparkle7
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Keebler & anyone else - I'm not interested in fighting. Science is based on actual data. There is no data that I could find that proved that Lyme has a biotoxin. I was hoping someone would post something that proves that it does.
Everyone has a right to their opinions - even if the author of the first article uses an angry tone. I can understand why she would be mad. I wasted time & money on trying the protocol for Lyme biotoxins, myself. I had no idea that Lyme biotoxins where never proven. No one ever told me this.
I posted 3 different articles that show doubt that there is a Lyme biotoxin. Someone post something that contradicts this. Otherwise, don't project your anger at me. I'm just trying to get to some truth here & let people know that this is a theory about the Lyme biotoxins - not fact.
If I would have known this - I probably wouldn't have done the protocol for so long. I got no beneficial results.
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Keebler
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Borrelia, oxidative+stress - 15 abstracts (as oxidative stress is the state of toxicity) -
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sparkle7
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Yeah, I looked at this. Nothing i could find in plain english about any biotoxins (which are a specific thing if you look it up in Wikipedia)...
There were alot of articles like this -
Identification and characterization of the factor H and FHL-1 binding complement regulator-acquiring surface protein 1 of the Lyme disease spirochete Borrelia spielmanii sp. nov. Herzberger P, Siegel C, Skerka C, Fingerle V, Schulte-Spechtel U, Wilske B, Brade V, Zipfel PF, Wallich R, Kraiczy P.
Int J Med Microbiol. 2009 Feb;299(2):141-54. Epub 2008 Aug 15. PMID: 18706858 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
or
Abrogation of ospAB constitutively activates the Rrp2-RpoN-RpoS pathway (sigmaN-sigmaS cascade) in Borrelia burgdorferi. He M, Oman T, Xu H, Blevins J, Norgard MV, Yang XF.
Mol Microbiol. 2008 Dec;70(6):1453-64. Epub 2008 Oct 23. PMID: 19019147 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]Free PMC ArticleFree text
or
Lack of endotoxin in Borrelia hispanica and Treponema pallidum. Hardy PH Jr, Levin J.
I didn't see anything that directly states that this bacteria has a biotoxin or neurotoxin, though.
If the word "toxic" & "borrelia" are in the text - the search engine will find it. It doesn't mean that Lyme has a biotoxin & it's in PubMed.
If anyone has time - go through those studies & see if any of them say there is a biotoxin or neurotoxin associated with Lyme Disease. I looked through alot of them & I didn't see anything like that. Some were a bit technical for me but I did look.
Why aren't there more studies about this if it is such an important factor in recovery?
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sparkle7
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How about this one?
J Infect Dis. 1984 Oct;150(4):616. Failure to detect endotoxin in sera from patients with Lyme disease. Schmid GP, Verardo L, Highsmith AK, Weisfeld JS.
PMID: 6491371 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Then there this one 2 years later -
Microbiologica. 1986 Apr;9(2):249-52. Endotoxicity associated with the Lyme disease Borrelia: recent findings. Fumarola D, Munno I, Marcuccio C, Miragliotta G.
Classic endotoxins have a wide variety of biological activities, including ability to degrade the cartilage matrix by activating chondrocytes (8) and an inter- leukin-1 like factor released from LPS-activated mononuclear cells which stimulates bone resorption in vitro (9).
Thus, it is not unreasonable to hypo- thesize that an endotoxin-like material of the Borrelia burgdorferi is one of the pathogenic factor(s) of Lyme arthritis.
The failure to detect endotoxin in sera from patients with Lyme disease indicates that it probably does not cause the systemic abnormali- ties of the disease (10). However, the persistence in the tissues of the spirochetes and/or their release of surface constitutents or antigens (including an endo- toxin-like substance) may be a source of patho- physiological changes.
The controversy over the endotoxicity of Spiro- chetales can be resolved only by detailed investigations of the outer membranes of the microorganism.
----
It's still just theory, though.... Maybe further info will surface? All of this is from the 1980's.
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Keebler
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- " with a thank you to A.C. Steere" you will probably not find the truth. You may do best to follow the IDSA guidelines, then. -
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sparkle7
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But that article says there is an endotoxin!!!???
I've been researching this for hours... Basically, if something dies in the body, it's not good. The body has to process it. Toxins or no toxins.
I didn't want to keep going back to both "S" doctors work. I wanted to find alternatives. So, I found this-
BILE SALTS CAN HEAL PSORIASIS, SEPTICEMIA, VIRAL INFECTIONS & EXCESS ESTROGEN
There's still alot of controversy about all of this. Both "S" doctors lump Lyme endotoxin in with all the other toxins. I don't know if this is valid. But - like I said - if something dies in the body, it's not good.
There's also the issue of HLA-DR in some people. Both of these theories seem to be backed by the so-called enemy doctors... I found studies to verify this.
So, go figure... There still seems to be a big debate about the endotoxin issue. They call it an endotoxin-like chemical. Seems like it's a poison & we would want to get it out. Just don't know if the ways in which it's suggested to get it out are reliable.
I don't know if we can alter the faulty gene that some people apparently have to make things better.
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momlyme
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Allen Steere doesn't deserve thank yous. And Keebler is right. You will never find the truth if you look to his bogus findings.
-------------------- May health be with you!
Toxic mold was suppressing our immune systems, causing extreme pain, brain fog and magnifying symptoms. Four days after moving out, the healing began. Posts: 2007 | From NY/VT Border | Registered: Aug 2010
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Keebler
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- Steere's article said: "The failure to detect endotoxin in sera from patients with Lyme disease indicates that it probably does not cause the systemic abnormali-" (end quote)
However,
Definition of endotoxin: a toxin that is confined inside the microorganisms and is released only when the microorganisms are broken down or die.
That applies to borrelia. -
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sparkle7
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It was from the article that was "pro" endotoxin...
We suggest that an endotoxin (or an endotoxin-like material) of the microorganism plays a role in the pathogenesis of Lyme arthritis.
In a preliminary approach (5) we have shown that a suspension of heat-killed ticks (lxodes ricinus) bearing Borrelia spp. (kindly supplied by A. G. Barbour, NIH, Rocky Mountain Labs, Hamilton, MT, USA) caused geling of limulus amoebocyte lysate.
Another suspension of heat-killed ticks (lxodes dammini) bearing Borrelia organisms (kindly provided by A. C. Steere, Yale University, New Haven, CT, USA) gave positive results in the limulus endotoxin assay and elicited a febrile response in rabbits.
-----
I guess he just provided the ticks...
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sparkle7
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1: J Exp Med. 2006 Apr 3; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links
Antibiotic-refractory Lyme arthritis is associated with HLA-DR molecules that bind a Borrelia burgdorferi peptide.
Two groups have reported evidence that Borrelia, like several other bacteria, produce neurotoxins. These compounds reportedly can cause many of the symptoms of encephalopathy, cause an ongoing inflammatory reaction manifested as some of the virus-like symptoms common in late Lyme, and also potentially interfere with hormone action by blocking hormone receptors.
At this time, there is no assay available to detect whether this compound is present, nor can the amount of toxin be quantified. Indirect measures are currently employed, such as measures of cytokine activation and hormone resistance.
A visual contrast sensitivity test (VCS test) reportedly is quite useful in documenting CNS effects of the neurotoxin, and to follow effects of treatment. This test is available at some centers and on the internet.
It has been said that the longer one is ill with Lyme, the more neurotoxin is present in the body. It probably is stored in fatty tissues, and once present, persists for a very long time.
This may be because of enterohepatic circulation, where the toxin is excreted via the bile into the intestinal tract, but then is reabsorbed from the intestinal tract back into the blood stream. This forms the basis for treatment."
-------------------- HERX is a Four Letter Word! Posts: 716 | From If you're going through hell, keep going......Winston Churchill | Registered: Apr 2007
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TerryK
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spark wrote: There's also the issue of HLA-DR in some people. Both of these theories seem to be backed by the so-called enemy doctors... I found studies to verify this.
The test for biotoxin removal problems is NOT the HLA DR4 test that is related to lyme arthritis according to Dr. J. S. They apparently have nothing to do with each other.
http://www.personalconsult.com/articles/aggressivelymetxfailure.html "This HLA test is not the HLA-DR4 test that is involved in aggressive Lyme arthritis. It is also not the HLA-B27 that is found in people with ankylosing spondylosis, various types of arthritis, and some people suffering from psoriasis, inflammatory bowel disease or other autoimmune disorders."
posted
Steere is a soldier for people who want us dead. Don't listen to a word he says.
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TerryK
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there is ample evidence that spirochetes have endotoxins. Endotoxins cause increased cytokines. Borrelia patients usually have increased cytokines. these are good reasons to suspect a toxin as the cause for increased cytokines.
J Neuroimmunol. 2010 Nov 5. [Epub ahead of print]
Cytotoxic mechanisms may play a role in the local immune response in the central nervous system in neuroborreliosis.
Nordberg M, Forsberg P, Johansson A, Nyman D, Jansson C, Ernerudh J, Ekerfelt C.
Link�ping University, Dept. of Clinical and Experimental Medicine, Division of Infectious Medicine, Link�ping, Sweden; �land Borrelia group, �land Central Hospital, Mariehamn, �land, Finland.
Abstract Aiming to investigate the role of cytotoxic mechanisms in neuroborreliosis (NB), the cytokines IL-2, IL-7, IL-10, IL-12p70, IL-15, GM-CSF and the Th17-cytokine IL-17 were analyzed in cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) and plasma from NB-patients.
NB-patients showed increased levels in CSF compared to controls of all analyzed cytokines except IL-15 but not in plasma. Blood lymphocytes from three NB-patients showed functional cytotoxicity in response to autologous Borrelia-infected macrophages.
The findings support a role for cytotoxic mechanisms in the local immune response in NB and in addition suggest an increase of IL-17.
Copyright � 2010 Elsevier B.V. All rights reserved. PMID: 21056912 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
[Features of cytokine levels in serum of patients with tick-borne borreliosis with different clinical signs]. [Article in Russian]
Burgasova OA, Uskov AN, Grichenko NE, Tseneva GIa.
Abstract AIM: To assess levels of several cytokines in blood of patients with tick-borne borreliosis (Lyme disease) with different clinical variants of the disease.
MATERIALS AND METHODS: Study of complex of proinflammatory cytokines (IFNalpha, IL-1beta, IFNgamma, IL-2, IL-4, IL-8) during course of the disease was performed by solid-phase ELISA using domestic diagnostic kits (Scientific Manufacturing Organization "Proteinovyi Contur", "Cytokine" Ltd., Saint Petersburg). Levels of TNFalpha was determined by ELISA using commercial kits "Boehringer Manheim" (Austria).
RESULTS: Performed comparative clinico-laboratory analysis demonstrated increased levels of LL-2, IL-4, and IL-8 in patients during acute phase of tick-borne borreliosis that could point to host's response on bacterial infection. It should be noted that in patients with arthritis levels of LL-4 and IL-2 remained high during recovery phase that probably determined by possible persistence of Borrelia burgdorferi.
CONCLUSION: Further research of cytokines during Lyme borreliosis could have important diagnostic and prognostic value.
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sparkle7
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Just a quick response for now....
Thank for the digging guys & gals. This really bothers me so I wanted to find out more.
re:
there is ample evidence that spirochetes have endotoxins. Endotoxins cause increased cytokines. Borrelia patients usually have increased cytokines. these are good reasons to suspect a toxin as the cause for increased cytokines.
If this is the case, why is there so much controversy about this?
-----
I'm going to try to study more about this later.
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sparkle7
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Also - what about the co-infections, spider bites, viruses, parasites, yeast, XMRV... do they also produce endotoxins or cytokines? How do you tell them apart?
Is Lyme endotoxin worse or different than any other?
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TerryK
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actually, I should have said there is ample evidence for an "endotoxin-like" substance in spirochetes. I believe some have endotoxins too but there seems to be contradictory studies about that in some cases.
Bottom line for me is that biotoxin treatment helps me and helps others too but not everyone. That said, many don't do the whole protocol but are convinced that it doesn't work based on response to cheolestyramine alone.
Supposedly if you have not dealt with MARCONS and normalized VEGF, MSH (partly through dealing with Marcons), MMP-9 etc., you will not see the big improvements.
I don't think this is the fault of the patient because it's hard to find doctors who are willing to work on the whole protocol. From what I've seen, most just do cholestyramine and/or maybe actos.
I understand why others want/need proof but given the state of the science and the political battles over lyme disease I don't expect that proof is coming anytime soon. In the meantime, I continue to look for help wherever I can get it. I can't wait years to decades for proof.
Fact is that my sister (57 years old) just died from use of antibiotics. We think it was either a cytokine storm or possibly porphyria brought on by antibiotics.
She was bedridden for 10+ years with undiagnosed lyme or lyme-like illness. She had a sinus infection so they put her on abx. They tried 3 different abx on her but she had a terrible herx like reaction on them all. She started to recover between the time she went off one abx and on another so we are sure it was the abx. Her twin took her off abx and told the Dr. she would need to be hospitalized if she needed abx. She died 2 days later.
She has the same HLA issues with toxins that I have. I could not get her or my other sister to administer binders. I think it's entirely possible that she may have lived if she had used binders. I'll never know for sure but I do know that when I started treatment for lyme, I had terrible non-stop reactions to abx even with the binders but much worse without them. In fact, prior to binders, taking abx of just about any kind that treats lyme was intolerable for me.
Plain and simple, some people need binders. I'm one of them.
Terry
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Keebler
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- Terry, I know we've talked about it but, as this may be the first post where you've mentioned the recent passing of your sister, let me offer formal, heartfelt condolences
- and thank you working through your sorrow to pass on the concern that toxicity matters can lead to fatalities - and that binders can save lives.
For others - How toxic infections, and a certain classification of medicines, can cause toxic levels of porphyrins - If the liver has a particular dysfunction, this is something to consider - and what can help.
This is why I'm always shouting: Liver support ! ----------------------
Includes links from GiGi, Dr. K, and others about KPU / HPU (mauve factor) . . .
& links from TerryK regarding METHYLATION issues -
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sparkle7
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Wow, how sad, Terry... I'm sorry. Is it possible that your sister developed some kind of allergy to the abx?
This is a tricky issue. I feel like someone in the X-files... I want to believe... (in detox, that is) I was actually shocked to see that there was a controversy about this.
Sometimes, it's nice to have someone to blame for our suffering with this illness. It's kind of an easy target to lash out at doctors or scientists who we believe may be causing our grief.
I'm going to continue to research this. It's pretty interesting. I'm not really sure what the percentage of people are who improve with methylation therapy & binding of endotoxins.
Why would doctors prescribe the half baked version of the therapy when the full blown version is necessary? I have alot of doubts about things related to my therapy, protocol, & doctors.
I was following the protocol I was given. It made sense at the time. I would think that one should be able to see some results from a partial protocol to see if it would help to expand upon it.
There are big gaps in treatment for people who have these illnesses such as Lyme, XMRV, CFS, Fibro, MS, etc. There's alot of overlap so it's really difficult to know which parts of the illness to treat. I don't think that they are "all" Lyme. I think that there are subsets with alot of different variables.
I think these cytokine issues can relate to Lyme, Fibro, CFS, arthritis & probably alot more illnesses. Researchers have been studying this illness for 30+ years. I would think they would have isolated this Lyme endotoxin-like substance by now.
I'm going to study it further. I'll post more info as I do.
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Hoosiers51
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sparkle7,
Just wanted to say, kudos to you for asking questions. I think we should all be skeptical and ask questions about everything we are taking. Especially treatments that aren't yet well-researched.
I'm not here to speculate whether or not these biotoxins exist. I just agree that very little is known (of course there is a lot that IS known about diseases/bacteria and toxins, but you all have got to admit, a lot is unknown). Is Cholestyramine doing ANYTHING? Who really knows.
It binds cholesterol, right? So maybe those who benefit from it are people that have a hard time digesting fats. Some people have delicate GI's that have a hard time handling fats and oils. Maybe they don't even know it. Maybe having help with those fats is helping their overall feeling of wellbeing. I'm sure having poorly digested fats floating around can't be good for anyone?
We are handed a lot of supplements, and told, "This is for X. This is for Y." I think it's good to question things, and do your own research, and come to your own conclusions.
When a doctor says to you, "This is for X." You need to ask yourself two questions: Do I even have X? And then, is there proof that this supplement will affect X's outcome?
I don't blame the LLMD's. They are just doing everything they can to try to make us better, when all other doctors have just given up. The way I figure, you might as well try something, in the chance that it helps.
But also, you have to be careful in believing something is working for a specific purpose, when you don't really know for sure why it's working.
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TerryK
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Thanks keebler, I appreciate that you care.
spark wrote: Is it possible that your sister developed some kind of allergy to the abx?
No, as I mentioned, her doctor tried 3 different kinds of abx. Her doctor thought she might be having an allergic reaction but her symptoms were similar to her regular daily symptoms but just so much worse. Seems clear it was not an allergic reaction.
spark wrote: I think these cytokine issues can relate to Lyme, Fibro, CFS, arthritis & probably alot more illnesses.
Yes I agree. I also think that most cases of the illnesses that you mention are related to infection.
spark wrote: Why would doctors prescribe the half baked version of the therapy when the full blown version is necessary? I have alot of doubts about things related to my therapy, protocol, & doctors.
I see it all the time and not just where lyme is concerned. I suppose there are many reasons. One doctor told me the book was too difficult to read (not LLMD and not biotoxins). I was surprised because I didn't find the book hard to read at all. The way the book was structured was different and I think that is what confused him.
I also think that time is a factor for many doctors. It takes a lot of time to understand some of these difficult protocols. I can think of other possible reasons but I'm sure you can too. I do my own research so that I have a good understanding of what is happening and what should be happening.
hoos wrote: Is Cholestyramine doing ANYTHING? Who really knows.
As I said before, without it I cannot tolerate antibiotic treatment so for me, and others like me, it does a lot.
hoos wrote: It binds cholesterol, right? So maybe those who benefit from it are people that have a hard time digesting fats.
I suppose anything is possible but I doubt binding fats would allow one to take abx when they couldn't before. For me, it lessens the exacerbation of symptoms that I get with abx. Can you elucidate a mechanism where your theory makes sense?
Effect of Cholestyramine on Endotoxin Toxicity and Absorption
James P. Nolan, MD and M. Vilayat All, MD
Since there is evidence that cholestyramine improves diarrheal states where failure of bile salt reabsorption would not appear significant, a study was undertaken to examine the effect of this resin on the toxicity and absorption of bacterial endotoxin.
Both the toxicity of intraperitoneal injections of a cholestyramine-endotoxin suspension, and the absorption of the suspension through everted gut sacs was compared with a similar Dowex l-X8 suspension in rats.
The results show that cholestyramine significantly reduces the toxicity of endotoxin when placed in the peritoneal cavity, and that it effectively inhibits the passage of ~xCr labeled endotoxin through the intestinal wall.
Oral cholestyramine and paregoric therapy for intractable diarrhea following surgical correction of catastrophic disease of the GI tract in neonates☆
H.S. Nagaraj, Larry Cook, Timothy G. Canty, George Haight
Abstract Ten surgical neonates with postoperative intractable diarrhea and secondary weight loss were treated with combination cholestyramine and paregoric therapy.
Within 3�5 days all infants except two showed significant clinical improvement with a decreasing number of stools, an increase in the consistency of the stool, and gradual weight gain.
The exact mechanism of action of cholestyramine is not clear. It may act by binding with bile salts and/or endotoxins in the bowel lumen or decreasing the motility of the bowel.
Used in combination with paregoric, a known bowel motility depressant, the doses of each medication can be kept quite low thus avoiding undesirable side effects.
Medium chain triglyceride formula is helpful in some of these infants to improve fat absorption further. Medication in all of these infants has been discontinued without any adverse effects.
CONCLUSION: Prophylactic treatment with enteral cholestyramine preserved cellular immune functions after partial hepatectomy in the rat, which may explain its beneficial effects on the postoperative course. Furthermore, the authors' results are consistent with the hypothesis that endotoxemia is involved in the pathogenesis of the cellular immune derangements after partial hepatectomy.
There are probably more but I'm sure you can find them as easily as I can.
As most of us know, many drugs are used extensively for off label uses. Pragmatism has to fit in here somwhere.
hoos wrote: But also, you have to be careful in believing something is working for a specific purpose, when you don't really know for sure why it's working.
Yes, I agree and that's why I very carefully and logically go about trying to determine what if anything is working for each problem. I've been on cholestyramine off and on for 4+ years and I am certain it is what is allowing me to stay on abx.
It's possible that once my bacterial load is down more, I'll be able to go without it. I was infected for almost 5 decades before I got treatment and disabled for 20+ years so I'm sure my bacterial load was very high.
sparkle7
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Still some interesting info! In many cases, some kind of infection could very well be taking place in this constellation of illnesses. I still would like to research it further but I have to give my brain a break for the moment.
However, going back to this article may present some alternatives -
BILE SALTS CAN HEAL PSORIASIS, SEPTICEMIA, VIRAL INFECTIONS & EXCESS ESTROGEN
(SEPTICEMIA is blood poisoning by bacteria... Could be due to endotoxins?)
Good points about food digestion in relation to this Hoosiers. It is something to think about. getting rid of the toxin may have to do with a genetic problem, though.
I want to go back & compare Dr.S's view of HLA with the one mentioned prior about Lyme Arthritis. I want to understand the difference. Thanks for all the great info Terry.
Also- there are some drugs being talked about that are endotoxin binders. One I was reading about is a peptide. There's this one, too - Sevelamer hydrochloride.
----
for example -
Cathelicidin Peptide Sheep Myeloid Antimicrobial Peptide-29 Prevents Endotoxin-induced Mortality in Rat Models of Septic Shock
Andrea Giacometti, Oscar Cirioni, Roberto Ghiselli, Federico Mocchegiani, Giuseppina D'Amato, Raffaella Circo, Fiorenza Orlando, Barbara Skerlavaj, Carmela Silvestri, Vittorio Saba, Margherita Zanetti and Giorgio Scalise
I think there was one from horseshoe crabs, too...
It's alot of research!
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sparkle7
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Most of the info I've come across about HLA-DR is just copied from website to website. It's pretty much the same info. I still don't understand why this HLA-DR is any different than the one Steere discovered back in the 80's which relates to Lyme arthritis...
This is all theorized and researched in Dr S�s book, �Mold Warriors.� Here, he explains that there are 2 �dreaded genotypes� that make toxic mold catastrophic to people who possess these genotypes.
About .005% of the population has this gene. The gene is more common in people of Northern European descent. You can actually test to see if you might have the dreaded genotype by measuring if your arms length, from fingertip to fingertip, is greater than your height.
----
If only .005% have this - it's really uncommon. I'm going to keep researching... I can see that people would want to detox but I still don't see how the gene issue with mold is the same as the gene issue with Lyme endotoxin-like substances. I just want to see the evidence from a 3rd party, myself. .005% is really low - if that's true.
Not to discount any doctor's work with this or cast aspersions on anyone's treatment...
sparkle7
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I have a really long post about this but I keep getting this message -
Sorry, we do not permit the following HTML tag or attribute: Parenthesis in HTML tag
Can someone help me?
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Hoosiers51
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Terry,
Sorry I didn't see that you had said that. I didn't read all the posts before commenting, but I probably should have posted that! I am glad it's helping you.
It was really difficult for me to take. Did something weird to my mouth, that was intolerable for me. Just drinking it mixed into liquid made my mouth do something really weird....it got this shriveled up feeling, can't recall the rest but it was strange.
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sparkle7
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I'm going to post the studies one at a time to see which one is no-good.
first one -
Long post...
Steere 2006: Antibiotic-refractory Lyme arthritis is associated with HLA-DR molecules
1: J Exp Med. 2006 Apr 3; [Epub ahead of print] Related Articles, Links
Antibiotic-refractory Lyme arthritis is associated with HLA-DR molecules that bind a Borrelia burgdorferi peptide.
Center for Immunology and Inflammatory Diseases, Massachusetts General Hospital, Harvard Medical School, Boston, MA 02114.
An association has previously been shown between antibiotic-refractory Lyme arthritis, the human histocompatibility leukocyte antigen (HLA)-DR4 molecule, and T cell recognition of an epitope of Borrelia burgdorferi outer-surface protein A (OspA(163-175)).
We studied the frequencies of HLA-DRB1-DQA1-DQB1 haplotypes in 121 patients with antibiotic-refractory or antibiotic-responsive Lyme arthritis and correlated these frequencies with in vitro binding of the OspA(163-175) peptide to 14 DRB molecules.
Among the 121 patients, the frequencies of HLA-DRB1-DQA1-DQB1 haplotypes were similar to those in control subjects. However, when stratified by antibiotic response, the frequencies of DRB1 alleles in the 71 patients with antibiotic-refractory arthritis differed significantly from those in the 50 antibiotic-responsive patients (log likelihood test, P = 0.006; exact test, P = 0.008; effect size, Wn = 0.38). 7 of the 14 DRB molecules (DRB1*0401, 0101, 0404, 0405, DRB5*0101, DRB1*0402, and 0102) showed strong to weak binding of OspA(163-175), whereas the other seven showed negligible or no binding of the peptide.
Altogether, 79% of the antibiotic-refractory patients had at least one of the seven known OspA peptide-binding DR molecules compared with 46% of the antibiotic-responsive patients (odds ratio = 4.4; P < 0.001). We conclude that binding of a single spirochetal peptide to certain DRB molecules is a marker for antibiotic-refractory Lyme arthritis and might play a role in the pathogenesis of the disease.
PMID: 16585267 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
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sparkle7
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number 2- this one had problems posting...
Infect Immun. 1993 July; 6: 2774�2779.
Association of treatment-resistant chronic Lyme arthritis with HLA-DR4 and antibody reactivity to OspA and OspB of Borrelia burgdorferi.
R A Kalish, J M Leong, and A C Steere
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sparkle7
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Maybe look the above one up. I tried to correct it...
Number 3 -
SHORT COMMUNICATIONS
HLA-DR in meningopolyneuritis of garin-bujadoux-bannwarth: contrast to lyme disease? W. Kristoferitsch and W. R. Mayr
Abstract
Sixteen patients with meningopolyneuritis of Garin-Bujadoux-Bannwarth (MPN-GBB) were examined for HLA-DR antigens. In contrast to data in Lyme disease (LD), which is caused by an identical or closely related spirochete, no significant association was found between the neurological disease and HLA-DR.
The reported association between neurological disease and HLA-DR2 in LD may be due to the inclusion of cases with neurological disease and arthritis, since chronic arthritis in LD seems to be well correlated with HLA-DR2.
Key words��Meningopolyneuritis of Garin-Bujadoux-Bannwarth�-�Bannwarth's syndrome�-�Lyme disease�-�Histocompatibility antigens�-�HLA-DR antigens Presented in part at the Thirty-Sixth Annual Meeting of the American Academy of Neurology, Boston, Massachusetts, April 1984
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Association of HLA-DR2 antigen with serum IgG antibodies against Borrelia burgdorferi in Bannwarth's syndrome J. H. J. Wokke, P. A. Doorn, A. Brand, G. M. T. Schreuder and M. Vermeulen
Abstract
The frequency of the HLA-DR2 antigen in 33 patients with clinical symptoms and signs of Bannwarth's syndrome was 33%, which was not significantly different from the 29% occurrence in 505 control subjects.
However, all 11 HLA-DR2-positive patients had elevated serum levels of IgG antibodies against Borrelia burgdorferi, and these were present in 45% of 22 HLA-DR2-negative patients (P=0.004). In the 21 patients with anti-B. burgdorferi antibodies the frequency of HLA-DR2 was 52%, which is significantly higher than the frequency in the control group (P=0.04).
The diagnosis of Bannwarth's syndrome was serologically confirmed by a positive indirect immunofluorescence assay (IFA). A negative test result does not exclude the diagnosis, as has recently been demonstrated with more sensitive techniques.
The association between HLA-DR2 and a positive IFA suggests that the IFA selects a subgroup of patients with Bannwarth's syndrome and a different immune response. We could not demonstrate differences in the clinical spectrum and outcome between the two groups.
---
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sparkle7
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Number 4 -
Borrelia burgdorferi infection in Europe: An HLA-related disease? C. D. Reimers, U. Neubert, W. Kristoferitsch, K. H. Pfl�ger and W. R. Mayr I NFECTION Volume 20, Number 4, 197-200, DOI: 10.1007/BF02033058 July 1992
Abstract
Various studies in the United States and Europe have established human leucocyte antigens (HLA) Cw3, DR2 and DR4 as risk factors for manifest Borrelia burgdorferi infection or the development of chronic courses of Lyme disease.
Other studies failed to confirm these findings. In the present study the frequencies of HLA A, B, Cw and DR were analysed in 283 persons from Austria and Germany with manifestB. burgdorferi infection.
No statistically significant differences were found between patients and the control groups with regard to the frequencies of particular HLA antigens, nor were differences in antigen frequencies in the patients with manifestations of different stages of disease significant.
Furthermore, a statistical re-evaluation of all the European studies failed to confirm particular HLA antigens as risk factors forB. burgdorferi infections to become manifest or chronic.
---
Abstract:
Identifying markers for chronic illness in pediatric patients exposed to water damaged buildings:
Linkage disequilibrium > of HLA DR, MSH, MMP9 and autoantibodies > > Authors: R. C. S�, Courtney Holt�, Dennis House�, HK > Hudnell� >
�Center for Research on Biotoxin Associated Illnesses, Pocomoke, Md; > �US EPA NHEERL, Research Triangle Park, NC > >
Background: No studies have previously identified biomarkers adequate to create a case definition of illness associated with exposure to water damaged buildings (WDB) in pediatric patients.
Previous work from this facility has presented a case definition of illness in adults that includes exposure, symptoms and absence of confounders, together with biomarkers HLA DR genotypes of the immune response genes; deficiency of the hypothalamic immunomodulatory hormone, alpha melanocyte stimulating hormone (MSH); excess pro- inflammatory cytokine responses, represented by matrix metalloproteinase-9 (MMP9), deficits in visual contrast and pituitary hormone dysregulation.
We have seen an increased incidence of antibodies to gliadin, cardiolipin and myelin basic protein in adults with chronic illness following exposure to WDB. Here we present data supporting a pediatric case definition using multiple biomarkers from 66 patients with illness following exposure to WDB.
Methods: Patients under age 19 coming for treatment of chronic illness at a specialized medical clinic provided informed consent for evaluation and blood testing prior to initiation of definitive therapy for presumptive chronic, biotoxin associated illness.
Symptoms were recorded and blood was sent to national high complexity labs for analysis of HLA DR genotype, MSH, MMP9, anticardiolipins (ACLA), antigliadins (AGA) and myelin basic protein (MBP) antibodies.
Lab parameters were compared to in-house registries of control > patients and published registries. Following treatment and confirmation of diagnosis, cases were then analyzed by biomarker to > identify unique diagnostic features.
Results: Control populations have markedly different HLA DR genotype distributions from cases, with relative risks for illness identified for the same genotypes as reported previously in adults.
Affected patients had lower levels of MSH and MMP9 than controls.
Marked increase in incidence of antibodies to antigliadin IgG, anticardiolipin IgM and myelin basic protein antibodies was found in affected patients compared to controls. Taken together, the combination of potential for exposure, absence of confounding diagnoses, presence of distinctive groupings of symptoms, including fatigue and cognitive problems identified over 85 & 37; of cases.
Adding HLA DR, MSH deficiency, AGA-IgG and ACLA-IgM increased the case detection rate to 100&37;. For patients with MMP9 over 400, HLA DR and MSH deficiency alone identified all cases.
Conclusion: Specific genetic, physiologic and neurotoxicologic factors can be identified in pediatric patients that identify cases of chronic illness due to exposure to WDB. Physiologic mechanisms associated with increased production of particular autoantibodies will require further study.
-------------- my comments:
Dr. S does not disclose specific HLA-DR information. So, how do we know it's different than Dr. Steer's studies?
There is still controversy as to whether HLA-DR is effected or causes issues due to some kind of toxin. The Austria and Germany study was quite large & found:
Various studies in the United States and Europe have established human leucocyte antigens (HLA) Cw3, DR2 and DR4 as risk factors for manifest Borrelia burgdorferi infection or the development of chronic courses of Lyme disease.
Other studies failed to confirm these findings. In the present study the frequencies of HLA A, B, Cw and DR were analysed in 283 persons from Austria and Germany with manifestB. burgdorferi infection.
No statistically significant differences were found between patients and the control groups with regard to the frequencies of particular HLA antigens, nor were differences in antigen frequencies in the patients with manifestations of different stages of disease significant.
Furthermore, a statistical re-evaluation of all the European studies failed to confirm particular HLA antigens as risk factors forB. burgdorferi infections to become manifest or chronic.
-----
The other idea I have is maybe this issue of mold illness is related to the antibiotics taken & not the Lyme toxins, themselves...?
Please post, anyone???? I'm all ears. Sorry this is quite technical...
It's worth reading!
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TerryK
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spark- similar info written by a doctor who treats using the full protocol in the link I posted a ways back in this thread. I'll post it again and copy a paste a little of the document. It is a slide presentation.
Melanocyte Stimulating Hormone � MSH and VIP will be very low in persistently symptomatic patients � MSH will remain low if neurotoxins and MARCoNS are not cleared � If MSH remains low patients remain at risk for subsequent unregulated responses to inflammation
MSH � Potent protective and anti-inflammatory effects. � Affects various pathways � NF kappa-B activation, IL-10 synthesis � T cell proliferation and activity � Controls the periphery of skin, gut, respiratory membranes, blood and brain � Inflammatory cell migration, expression of anti-oxidative enzymes, and apoptosis
Low MSH � Decreases melatonin release affecting restorative sleep � Decreases endorphin production. Pain perception magnified � Increasing problems with carriage of MARCoNS, �leaky gut� and gliadin antibodies
Effects of Low MSH � Dysregulation of gonadotrophins contributing to the androgen deficiency often found in neurotoxic patients. � ADH dysregulation with excess free water loss by the kidney and excess salt in the sweat. In patients this presents as constant thirst and tendency for frequent static electrical shocks � Decreased TSH almost never seen � Marked sensitivity of ACTH/cortisol in low MSH � Decreases GH release not confirmed; impaired production likely
Multiply Antibiotic Resistant Coagulase Negative Staphylococci � MARCoNS will colonize deep aerobic nasal space of patients with low MSH especially with prolonged antibiotic use � This is colonization not infection (commensal) � These organisms release hemolysins destroying RBC�s; also causing cytokine release as foreign antigens � Exotoxin A is in MARCoNS isolates and can split MSH, inactivating it
MARCoNS � These are invariably biofilm formers making treatment difficult � Perform a deep nasal C&S. Make sure lab knows that you want sensitivity on staph epidermidis and other coagulase negative staphs or they will not do them � Ideally the lab should use API-staph kit � Cambridge should be able to offer this test by 9/15
Treatment of MARCoNS I won't copy this part because it shows 2 of the doctors names
Complementary Rx of MARCoNS � Intranasal colloidal silver � Intranasal Agrumax or GSE � Intranasal tea tree oil (5-10% solution max) � Use at least 2 of the above qid for 3-6 weeks � Re-culture after treatment
I'll try to get back to this thread because there are several things that I want to respond to but not sure if I'll have time this week.
Terry
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sparkle7
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I don't understand why Dr. S does not state the specific HLA-DRs in his study. Why does his info seem to use code from a lab report rather than just stating the specific ones? Why does Dr. S state that the HLAs are different than the ones Dr. Steere found?
Maybe I'm ignorant of these things but it's something I don't get. There's also the Austrian & German study which didn't find a relationship of Lyme to HLAs...
If people kill the pathogens, wouldn't the body eventually get rid of the so called biotoxins? I don't think I've came across anything comparing Lyme "biotoxins" to mold biotoxin. Why are they similar? How do they know it's Lyme biotoxins & not a reaction to antibiotics which can be derived from mold or fungus?
Also, How do we know how accurate all of these tests are?
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