Topic: article - �Lyme neurotoxin detoxing� is dangerous quackery
Pinelady
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Member # 18524
posted
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21113897 2010 Dec; AbstractInfectious diseases can affect the previously healthy adolescent as well as severely immuno-compromised intensive care unit patients.
The effects may be merely annoying, but in many cases they can become life-threatening.
The immediate impact of infectious diseases on everyday life can be seen with Helicobacter pylori, which infects more than 50% of the global population,
or Borrelia burgdorferi, which causes a major tick-borne disease in Europe and America.
On the other hand, in less-developed countries, infections causing diarrhea are still among the most important causes of death... - especially in children.
Research in Medical Microbiology ranges from attempts to better understand the physiology and ecology of the causative agents to epidemiological typing of clinical isolates.
It covers the mutual interactions of pathogenic microbes as well as the interplay between microorganism and host.
Among the most pressing problems in medical microbiology is the emerging of antibiotic resistances.
In recent years, both Gram-positive bacteria - with the first description of vancomycin resistant Staphylococcus aureus - as well as Gram-negative species - e.g. with the emergence of extended spectrum beta-lactamases - have seen new and dramatic occurrences of resistance.
Consequently, the detection and characterization of new antimicrobial compounds is, more than ever, an important task.
All these topics are covered by the research articles compiled in this Special Issue of the Journal of Basic Microbiology. Further, the publication of this Special Issue should underline the importance of "Basic Microbiology" for "Medical Microbiology": The sometimes existing gap between basic research and application needs to be bridged urgently and in a time-saving manner as often as possible.
We are convinced that only combined efforts of experts in both areas will allow us to tackle future's problems in infectious diseases efficiently-----------
This is published medicine---They are recognizing that resistance may mean stealth and treatments are urgently needed...When they get much sicker they have always cited resistance and let them die---Now they are telling them the truth...
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I'm going to keep everything simple for the sake of simplicity.
quote:If people kill the pathogens, wouldn't the body eventually get rid of the so called biotoxins
Who knows. If you believe in terrain theory (which are current medical system does not), you would think clearing the terrain first would be your best bet.
quote:I don't think I've came across anything comparing Lyme "biotoxins" to mold biotoxin. Why are they similar? How do they know it's Lyme biotoxins & not a reaction to antibiotics which can be derived from mold or fungus?
Again, who knows. I don't know what my biotoxins are/were and finding out isn't important to me, but I had troubles starting any antibiotic, herbs, or colloidal silver as I encountered die-off.
If you have a biotoxin problem, KPU, or methylation problems, I think it's best to address those first if only to reduce symptoms and/or the herxheimer effect during treatment. However, I do believe addressing these things can help greatly from an immunological aspect as well.
If you are undergoing less stress, you will have a stronger immune system and more NK cells.
MichaelTampa
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Member # 24868
posted
sparkle,
You can go about it how you choose, but to look for documented evidence from "scientific" test for any particular treatment, my goodness, it just will never be a reality, for any condition, and certainly not for lyme disease. Of course it would be nice to have, but it won't happen, and lack of it won't mean anything with respect to what the truth is.
I have been taking the approach of reading about people who are having success and making recommendations, trying what is mentioned and offered, particularly more that resonates with me. If they give reasons and stories about what they've seen that seem to reflect people with similar situation to myself, I give it more weight. I'm looking for what works for me, assuming everyone is different anyway. I don't believe in the idea of finding everything that's wrong, then waiting for trials that 100% work for everybody that have that thing wrong. That sounds like quackery to me.
When things work for me, that's good, no "scientific proof" needed in terms of stupid tests on other people that aren't me, just reality, which counts more. I think that word "scientific" gets misused to give things credibility. I also think you can use energy testing to help figure out what might work for you. It has proven itself valuable for me, and many others as well.
By the way, I wondered about the VCS test as you did, how much will the results reflect the computer I have. But, in any event, I have been using cholestryamine and I believe it has been helping, and I also note that my VCS scores have improved during that time, so it does appear it is measuring something, at least relatively. I don't know if I would consider an absolute score particularly meaningful.
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
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sparkle7
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Pinelady - So you are saying the pathogens are drug resistant..? So, even if people go through the herx, it's not going to get rid of the problem.
How about the Lyme endotoxin protocol? Is this just an on-going thing to moderate the effects of "living with Lyme"?
If we don't know if the endotoxins are from Lyme or mold - we don't know what the tests are picking up & if we should be treating Lyme, mold or some other toxin.
I don't think detox is bad. We just need to know what it is we are trying to get rid of. It's a process of elimination in more ways than one. Do we continue taking abx? Do we treat babesia, bart, viruses, herpes, chemical toxins, heavy metals, etc.
I'm sure all of these things create "toxins" in the body. I'm sure even the drugs we take to get rid of these thing create toxins.
I was tested for some of these things & I could rule them out. I don't want to keep detoxing mercury if my tests say it's not an issue for me. Same is true of the co-infections, Lyme, etc.
I dont think they should all be lumped in the same category. I don't want to take an expensive drug like mepron for babesia if i don't have to... So, I wouldn't want to detox for Lyme biotoxins unless they are there.
All of these specific detoxes take time, money & effort. It seems important to know which things we are addressing. Also, if we have genes that make it difficult to detox - how do we really address this? There is the field of epigenetics. Are there epigenetic cures to address the insufficiency of "poor genes"?
I don't think taking chlorestramine (spelling?) and actos for the rest of our lives is the best solution. I don't have anything against anyone who does this protocol but I'm brainstorming here.
Maybe there are other ways to address this issue?
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sparkle7
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Member # 10397
posted
MichaelTampa - I share some of your feelings. It's just that we need to have some basis for protocols. I'm not looking for 100% scientific evidence.
We need to cross reference things to find what is real from what is lacking. I used to look at alot of people's recommendations but we can't always take what people say to heart.
1. everyone has unique genetics 2. people may not have the same infections 3. sometimes people state that they are "cured" when they haven't given it enough time to really see if they are actually better or indeed "cured" 4. we don't really know if other factors are effecting changes in health - like stress, allergies, other supplements, drugs, etc. 5. the placebo effect 6. some people just drift off & we never hear from them to see if they continued being well 7. people who post on message boards may have an agenda, could have psychological problems or just be lying (???)
With testing, we don't know if it's really accurate.At least we do have some controls over the tests to get an idea of what is happening, though. Also, the larger the study - the more chance we will see an accurate result.
One of the complaints of one of the doctors mentioned here was that he was using his patients as test subjects to see how his theories were working. I don't know - maybe I'm old fashioned but that seems kind of unethical to me.
I have had this sort of thing done to me by practitioners in the past - so, it's not out of the question.
We need to be able to compare studies to determine if these protocols have any validity for us as individuals. We need to have all of the info so we can decide for ourselves before we make the investment to time, effort & money.
Going through scientific studies can help us to determine what is really going on with our protocols.
I wouldn't say the bacteria become antibiotic resistant, because as far as I know, as there is no evidence of this. However, if you were to navigate around the steerites, you would know they have innate mechanisms to avoid antibiotics and the immune system.
In reality, drugs like doxycycline seem to be more bacteriostatic than anything. Perhaps this gives the immune system a better chance of getting rid of the pathogens on their own, and perhaps this is why Doxy et all seems to be effective in early stages of Lyme disease. Perhaps some people (us) also have various genetic or epigenetic reasons why their innate immune systems can't eradicate the infection.
Just trying to keep things simple once again.
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sparkle7
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re: Perhaps some people (us) also have various genetic or epigenetic reasons why their innate immune systems can't eradicate the infection.
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Does this have anything to do with Lyme neurotoxin detoxing? (Not being "snippy"... just a simple question.)
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by sparkle7: Does this have anything to do with Lyme neurotoxin detoxing? (Not being "snippy"... just a simple question.)
Sure. Why not?
But I think I applies to MCIDS more than Lyme itself.
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sparkle7
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Member # 10397
posted
FYI - Dr. H proposed that Chronic Lyme is really MCIDS - MultipleChronic Infectious Disease Syndrome
---
Yes, I can see this as being valid. I'll have to look into it further to see if he has some suggestions for treatment.
Is the reason our immune system can't get rid of the infection something to do with genetics? If so, how can the Lyme biotoxin detox or protocol developed by both "S" doctors help?
Seems like it's more of an attempt of living with Lyme or the biotoxin illness. If we don't remove the offending pathogen - we'll continue to be ill.
If everything worked like it's supposed to - we would be rid of the Lyme Bb after taking an abx course for a few months. It's just difficult since we don't know if we are really ill from Lyme exactly or something else or some combination of things.
Side effects from abx are very similar to the symptoms of Lyme & the co-infections.
The tests are not accurate & expensive - so, we can't measure our progress - either with treating Lyme or with the detox protocols.
There's varying studies as to whether Lyme really does have an HLA specific component. Maybe someone could enlighten me about this?
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Terry -- I'm really sorry for the loss of your sister
Michael in Tampa: Keep it up, it is what I did and I got well.
Sparkle : good to see you looking for answers
hoos and kday : good to see you out here
Me : I had a few minutes to peruse lymenet, now a luxury for me. I'm very involved in other things.
After the IOM meeting : we are years away from anything meaningful to help us. The best research is based on what folks have tried successfully and reported here (abx to alternative).
Hopefully the below comments are useful:
Just some thoughts on cholesterol: lyme disturbs our working biology, with that in mind, the results we can annecdotally determine affect organ function, then tissue function... etc... So the liver an organ possibly attacked from a lowered immune system given a rise in yeast starts to under perform. Well what affects does yeast possibly have on the liver, possibly the production of bile. Without normal bile production the liver and the gall bladder both congest. And from my own experience, whatever its worth (based on liver cleanses and annecdotally the number of gall bladders removed especially in lyme disease), cholesterol congeals without a normalized liver and blocks bile ducts.
Now the liver doing its normal job would clean the blood efficiently, with lyme, congestion and the advent of other infections it isn't. Now the body still has to remove what the liver no longer can't. Leaves it to the kidneys, digestion, lungs and skin. You can see a system which can get over taxed in time. So in a sense using binders, chelation, lymph drainage, kidney support, on and on, you maybe supporting the body for what the liver use to do and still won't.
This isn't to say more isn't going on like, hormones in the body not regulating correctly. Or issues around the neck mouth, ears and brain. Not to mention joints and senses.
So what am I saying: Our body is a house of cards, just knock one over like the liver card. If you can get one card to stand, I'd start with the liver -- as long as heart or cancer issues aren't in the way.
So what lyme might initiate: the disruption of our detoxifying organs. If the organs can be corrected, maybe there are no issues with biotoxins.
Good luck to all of you...
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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sparkle7
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One of the main functions of bile is to break toxic substances into smaller pieces. These small pieces become bound to sulfur containing substances like glutathione and pass into the colon.
Beneficial intestinal bacteria protect the colon from the toxin. These same healthy bacteria later facilitate separation of the toxin from bile acid which is reused to remove more toxins from the body as the toxic substance is eliminated in feces.
Persons lacking healthy intestinal bacteria will be unable to protect the colon from toxin injury and separate toxins from sulfur transporting particles. Consume healthy live bacteria from food daily(sauerkraut, unpasteurized goat yogurt, raw milk etc) and make certain you truly need antibiotic therapy to prevent antibiotic killing of good intestinal bacteria.
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Carcinogens such as cleaning compounds, pesticides, food packaging substances, hormone mimicking pollutants, water contaminants etc. become stored in the body in fat, liver and lymphatic tissue when they are not promptly removed. These carcinogenic substances produce inflammatory reactions and ultimately can cause cancer.
Failure to excrete toxins promptly can produce immunologic reactions and inflammation in the liver arteries. As the arteries become injured the blood flow into the liver decreases damaging the health of liver cells and ultimately the liver�s ability to produce adequate bile suffers.
When bile flow is reduced the cholesterol levels rises in the blood producing sludgy blood flow.
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Toxic substances(excess estrogens,. bacterial endotoxins, viral particles etc.) are broken down in the intestines into smaller non-toxic particles by bile acids.
The bacterial endotoxins are among the most dangerous substances known. Several endotoxins are capable of producing irreversible shock with bleeding disorders when they enter the bloodstream unless these bacteria are promptly killed by the correct antibiotic so they immediately cease supplying the blood with more endotoxins..
Bile salts split endotoxins into harmless particles[2] preventing them from reaching the blood stream.
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**EDITED OUT NAME OF LLMD**
Beets increase bile flow .and thin the bile. Lecithin, choline, tumeric, cucurmin, yarrow, Oregon grape root, taurine, milk thistle, artichoke and dandelion have similar effects..
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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sixgoofykids
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Member # 11141
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quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: ***DO NOT POST NAMES OF LLMD'S!!***
Sparkle.. Your PM box is full.
Just reiterating. Way too many doc's names used in this thread.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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sparkle7
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posted
Thanks for removing them. I didn't know it was a problem if you posted a study or something published. I just thought it was for personal experiences with doctors.
It's kind of hard to know who is doing the study if you don't post the names. I won't do it again.
I thought I cleared my mailbox... I'll check it again.
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Pinelady
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sparkley what I was trying to convey was that some researchers have cited resistance to antibiotics for organisms such as Malaria/TB/HIV/etc. etc.
so they can come up with new vaccines...
Not new treatments----
Now we know that they are not testing and treating for all the stealth they could be ill with and leaving the patients sicker than they imagine---
not to mention possibilities of transmission.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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lymie_in_md
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posted
Sparkle -- its great point, because I love beets, which is something every lymie should have in their diets despite the sugar. And the sugar we need anyways to stay hydrated and to keep the body going.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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sparkle7
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Member # 10397
posted
There's so much conflicting evidence about all of this - it's hard to know how to approach it. I'm still a bit skeptical of all the testing & the advised treatment for these toxins.
I think I would stick with the more natural approaches first. I'm glad people are doing well with the cholestyramine. There are other approaches we can do for ourselves like binders (clay, charcoal, chlorella, psylium, etc.) plus herbs, bile salts...
Cholestyramine is not without side effects.
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