posted
Hi All, I used to be a vegan back before I was diagnosed, I'm not now and haven't been for awhile. The last week or so I have started going meatless every other day and have been enjoying it. I really did love being a vegan, but I know I wasnt getting enough protein or amino-acids.
What do you all think of this? Do you all think meat is super important....?
Posts: 844 | From CA | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged |
lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
I prefer a vegetarian diet just because I personally feel better on it.
I don't know if Dr. K is right or wrong, but having read his take on it, I still think I'm doing the right thing.
Quote "You are not going to find a single cow in the US without having Ehrlichiosis, Babesia and Lyme Disease. I tested through a friend, a vet, many cows. He could not find a single one that is not infected.
So cow�s milk has Lyme Disease in it. If you pasteurize it, most of the Lyme bugs die, not all of them, some of them in cysts, and you get the Lyme cysts and they survive into you."
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
Think it depends on your blood type
*shrugs shoulders*
I feel better when I eat animal protein and fats.
So I continue to do so in moderation.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
No, I don't think red meat in particular, is good for you. It is full of toxins and it stresses out your kidneys. When you are on abx your liver and kidneys need all the help they can get. You don't need as much protein as we are lead to believe.
My son was recently diagnosed with diabetes so I started researching diet and was surprised to discover a vegan diet is the most healthful.
Georgetown University conducted a test providing vegan meals for diabetics and the ADA diet which included chicken and fish (but not read meat) for the control group of diabetics.
The vegan group had such a dramatic reduction in blood sugar that many of them were "cured" in six weeks. They found a low protein vegetarian diet is less stressful on the body.
Animal fat is unhealthy for the kidneys and heart. You can get plenty of protein from beans, nuts, seeds etc. The only thing you might need to supplement is the B vitamins.
People will say "no carbs" but that is ignorant. Our bodies need carbs to survive. Even diabetics must have carbs. The key to good health is to eat complex carbs like brown rice, black rice, barley etc. I am sure you know this but others might not.
What you need to avoid is refined and processed man made "food" like sugar and white flour.
I am not a vegetarian but I do not eat red meat. I used to be vegetarian when I was young and am trying to incorporate it back into my life.
People that don't eat meat do not smell. They never have body odor. When I was first diagnosed with lyme I was told to eat only meat and vegetables. That did not last long because my body smelled repulsive. I realized it was toxins from the meat.
The reasoning for "avoiding carbs" was to limit glucose in the blood because sugar feeds the organisms. But as stated before the vegan diet actually lowered the blood sugar more than any other diet. Keep that in mind.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
nefferdum,
I don't agree with the statement "we don't need as much protein as we are lead to believe."
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I think we need protein-- I think I'll just do every other day with meat. I think one of the best things about not eating meat is just that I eat more veggies; but I think that the animal protein and amino acids are super important especially for sick people. I already cut out all grains, sugar are soy to help stabilize my blood sugar (I've done this for over 2 years). Thanks for your thoughts guys!
Posts: 844 | From CA | Registered: Apr 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by canefan17: nefferdum, I don't agree with the statement "we don't need as much protein as we are lead to believe."
nefferdun, I don't agree with most of the statements you made above.
I'm not at all against vegetarianism. People are different. Some thrive as vegetarians, some don't. I do much better on protein and fat and the few carbs I get from low starch veggies.
But no matter what way of eating you choose, it is a fact tht everyone needs a good amount of complete proteins.
There are essential amino acids (protein), there are essential fatty acids (fat). There is no such thing as an essential carbohydrate.
Our bodies don't need carbohydrates to survive. Our bodies evolved using protein and fat to make any necessary glucose.
In many posts you have referred to this study that found a vegan diet "cured" diabetes. I have been unable to find this study. Please provide references. The only study like this that I can find was conducted by the PCRM. PCRM is the medical arm of PETA, so any study by them would be extremely biased towards a vegan lifestyle.
Animal fat is not at all unhealthy for the kidneys and heart. It's basic physiology. Fat and cholesterol play an important part in building healthy cell membranes. It's the carbohydrates that are inflammatory and irratating to the arteries. Carbs create the dense, sticky type of cholesterol that clogs arteries, not dietary fat.
Good books: Good Calories/Bad Calories by Gary Taubes Why We Get Fat by Gary Taubes Protein Power by Drs. Eades Know Your Fats by Dr. Mary Enig
Good articles: What If It's All Been a Big, Fat Lie? by Gary Taubes The Oiling of America by Dr. Mary Enig
I eat red meat and, by the way, I DON'T STINK!!
-------------------- "To eat is a necessity, but to eat intelligently is an art" - LaRochefoucauld
Lyme neuro symptoms for 20+ years. Infected in Maryland. Diagnosed with Lyme Jan 2011. (previously diagnosed with CFS, Fibro, peripheral neuropathy) Posts: 261 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
^^^ Agree with a lot of that
One of the biggest scams in America right now is Cholesterol drugs
I hear people all the time "Oh I don't eat the yolk because of the cholesterol."
I tell em - well you're missing out on one of the most nutritious foods we know of.
Their loss
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- It's about balance - and the right kinds of proteins for YOUR body from the best sources.
Some people do better with a plant based diet than others.
Also, remember that grass fed cattle, lamb, etc. can be tremendous sources of nutrition. These animals are well cared for and graze freely (within reason, of course) on ranches dedicated to humane and organic practices.
Regardless of where we get our protein, if you have enough protein (and that is combined with good veggies and other complex carbs - and good fats) your body will not crave simple carbs.
I was vegetarian for many years but, despite my blood type supposedly not being good with meat, I really do require some fish and animal protein each day in order to function. I kept passing out without it.
Still, my diet is rich in plant based proteins, too.
All protein sources help our bodies make glutathione and that helps the liver detox . . . protein's amino acids help our brain, our hearts, our muscles, etc.
Taurine (found mostly in muscle meats) is vital, too. Vegetarians and vegans should consider supplementing taurine, as well as B-12 and L-Carnitine. Taurine is vital for our eyesight.
THE REQUIREMENTS OF PROTEIN & AMINO ACID DURING ACUTE & CHRONIC INFECTION . . . - 20 pages
Anura V. Kurpad - Institute of Population Health & Clinical Research, Bangalore, India 129. Indian J Med Res 124, August 2006, pp 129-148.
Excerpt:
" . . . In general, the amount of EXTRA protein that would appear to be needed is of the order of 20-25 per cent of the recommended intake, for most infections. . . ."
- Full article at link (or google the title if it does not go through). -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
| IP: Logged |
lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
When I first started my vegetarian diet I had tested positive for Diabetes... 7 months later my numbers came down and were in the abnormal range. I am going to get tested again soon. Not sure if the vegetarian diet is contributing to the lower levels but we will see soon enough.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
Ruby, Here is one of the links. A whole page of links comes up when you search Georgetown University diabetes vegan diet. I am surprised you did not find anything!
Disputing that a vegan/vegetarian diet is not more healthful for you than animal protein is like saying lyme disease is cured in 3 weeks of abx. People have habits and opinions they do not want to change in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Not eating red meat also helps prevent neuropathy, something both diabetics and lyme patients can develop. After switching to a vegetarian diet people with neuropathy experienced less pain.
Can you get enough protein from plant sources? The American Heart Associations seems to think you can! Here is a quote:
"Protein: You don't need to eat foods from animals to have enough protein in your diet. Plant proteins alone can provide enough of the essential and non-essential amino acids, as long as sources of dietary protein are varied and caloric intake is high enough to meet energy needs.
Whole grains, legumes, vegetables, seeds and nuts all contain both essential and non-essential amino acids. You don't need to consciously combine these foods ("complementary proteins") within a given meal.
Soy protein has been shown to be equal to proteins of animal origin. It can be your sole protein source if you choose."
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nefferdun...I agree with much of what you have said. Unfortunately most people have misconceptions about vegetarian diets. People have already made their minds up about it and aren't likely to change what they think which is unfortunate.
There are plenty of facts that people can easily find that show that vegetarian diets can help and even reverse things like heart disease and diabetes.
But people will believe what they want.
Personally I NEVER thought I could be a vegetarian. I liked eating meat etc. Plus I also had some misconceptions about the vegetarian diet.
However, about 2 or 3 years into this illness (been ill for over 9 years now) someone recommended a book to me that talked about how diet effects health. It was geared towards being vegetarian or vegan.
After reading that book I decided to give it a shot. At that point I figured what did I have to lose since I was ill (didn't know I had lyme yet) and getting no help from doctors.
So I changed my diet and haven't looked back. To this day changing to a vegetarian/vegan diet gave me the most noticeable improvements out of everything I have tried...and that includes antibiotics.
And it wasn't because I was eating unhealthy before changing my diet. And I wasn't overweight or anything either...always been a thin person.
So it was the diet itself that helped. I had some pretty significant improvements from the diet change so I have stuck with it the last 6 or 7 years now.
It wasn't a cure by any means but it did really help. So I no longer discount the vegetarian diet.
It may not be for everyone but I think it can definitely help a lot of people.
-------------------- Sick since 10/2001. Tested CDC positive for Lyme 10/2008 through Quest and Igenex. Started treatment 1/2009 with LLMD. Lyme, Erichilosis, Chlamydophila Pneumoniae, Q Fever, Strep Syndrome and probably a few others I am forgetting. Posts: 451 | From Virginia | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
Jamers
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 28016
posted
To each his own....But vegetarian diets are very healthy if you do them the right way.
Good Books The Kind Diet by Alicia Silverstone The Engine 2 Diet by Rip Esselstyn
Vegan diets have been found to lower cholesterol, cure some forms of diabetes, help hormonal conditions, and even cure some cancers.
Plant Power!!
-------------------- Diagnosed Pos. Lyme Nov. 17, 2010, Igx. Pos. Babesia Duncani March 2011, Igx. Clinical diagnosis for Bartonella Posts: 1127 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2010
| IP: Logged |
MichaelTampa
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 24868
posted
I do think it's individualized.
I have been a vegan for many years. I supplement with a hemp protein powder and used to take several different amino acids early on in treatment, but don't need them any more. I do think the protein is important.
I believe the most famous diabetes study, like the one referred to above, was performed by Dr. Atkins--a vegetarian, but not a PCRM guy. They PCRM is headed by Dr. Barnard.
Regarding diet for lyme, I think I have heard everything--lots of protein, low protein, low fat, low carb, ..., yikes, but a sign that it is individualized.
I do think anyone eating animal product, particularly those with lyme, should consider the "organically grown" variety. Probably less things to screw with your body.
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged |
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
I hope to switch over completely soon. I have eaten no red meat for two years but still have some fish and chicken - mainly because of my husband. I have 2 of Dr. Barnard's books.
I am glad to hear there are people doing well on a vegetarian diet that have lyme.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
lululymemom, those were great links.
gwb, of course dairy companies are going to promote the health benefits of what they are producing but did you know that one of the primary reasons for type one diabetes in children is milk?
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
nefferdun,
The milk companies ARE the problem, yes, I agree. But whole, raw milk, with the good enzymes still intact, and not ruined in the pasteurization process, is a different milk than we're getting today. Milk taken in it's purest form, and not reduced of it's fat, is not proven to cause diabetes. The evidence just isn't there.
It all depends on the kind of milk you are drinking. I think the evidence that milk is the primary reason for type one diabetes is unproven, but if it does contribute to it, it's not because they're drinking whole milk, especially raw whole milk with the essential enzymes that are ruined once they get heated.
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
By the way, I'm neither pro vegetarianism or pro meat. Everyone has to chose the diet they believe best suits their health needs.
There's a test you can take on Dr. Mercola's site that helps people know what their "nutritional type" is. Pretty interesting article at this link. They provide a test you can take free that helps you to know what foods are best for your type of body. If you're interested, check it out: http://products.mercola.com/nutritional-typing/
For me, the Weston Price, Sally Fallon type eating plan made a big difference in my improved health. It works for me, but it may not be for you.
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
The only thing I can add to this thread:
I have heard Dr. K. say many times --- "I have never met a healthy vegetarian". He tells about - this tribe somewhere in South America at very high elevation who live with only one type of sweet potato. I don't remember exactly, but I am sure Western man couldn't handle this and stay well.
I love almost everything and do best with the foods I grew up with. Detoxing metals is close to impossible without all the necessary substances, many of which are not readily available without meat, proteins, etc.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
quote:Originally posted by GiGi: The only thing I can add to this thread:
I have heard Dr. K. say many times --- "I have never met a healthy vegetarian".
Maybe you should send Dr. K. my link to the Blue Zone...
Frankly, I'm a little shocked by that statement. If he really did say that. It actually comes across as ignorant.
My grandmother lived to almost 97 on a vegetarian diet.
quote:Originally posted by nefferdun: Ruby, Here is one of the links. A whole page of links comes up when you search Georgetown University diabetes vegan diet. I am surprised you did not find anything!
Read the whole article. The last paragraph or two explains how the kidneys start excreting protein in the urine.
Not eating red meat helps prevent neuropathy, something both diabetics and lyme patients can develop. After switching to a vegetarian diet people with neuropathy experienced less pain.
Can you get enough protein from plant sources? The American Heart Associations seems to think you can! Here is a quote:
"Protein: You don't need to eat foods from animals to have enough protein in your diet. Plant proteins alone can provide enough of the essential and non-essential amino acids, as long as sources of dietary protein are varied and caloric intake is high enough to meet energy needs.
Whole grains, legumes, vegetables, seeds and nuts all contain both essential and non-essential amino acids. You don't need to consciously combine these foods ("complementary proteins") within a given meal.
Soy protein has been shown to be equal to proteins of animal origin. It can be your sole protein source if you choose."
I stated that I am not against a vegetarian diet. Everyone is different. Vegetarians can get enough protein from plant sources, it's just harder and takes knowing what you're doing to mix and match the best sources to get all the essential amino acids you need.
What I am against is biased psuedoscience from the PCRM. They are the medical front for PETA so of course they are going to find in favor of a vegan diet. One biased study doesn't make for fact. Scientific studies must be from unbiased scientists AND be reproducible by others who have no connection to the investigators of the original study. I'm a biologist and I've been in the medical and veterinary research field for 25 years.
I DO NOT find the American Heart Association to be a reliable source. They and the American Diabetic Association are run by the same insurance and pharmaceutical companies that influence the IDSA. It's in their best interest to keep the population marginally ill. They are doing ill people a great disservice in the policies they set.
Now, about neuropathy. I know neuropathy. I've had it for over 20 years. It almost put me in a wheelchair. I was in such pain. I couldn't work, I couldn't walk without a cane, I couldn't go up or down stairs. At the time, I was eating a high carb/low fat diet and was nearly vegetarian.
I'm so adamant about low carb now because it saved me from misery. I still have pain and neuropathy, but it is much less and now I can function. I go to work, I can walk, I even get to the gym once or twice a week. And it is because of strict avoidance of carbohydrates and eating adaquate animal protein and fats.
Before low carb, my cholesterol numbers were not good, especially triglycerides. After six months on low carb, my triglyceride number dropped like a stone. After six years on low carb, my cholesterol numbers are great. I was also able to get off of two blood pressure meds and cut my final BP med dose in half.
There are too many scientific studies showing that low carb improves cholesterol numbers and stablizes diabetic blood sugar for me to list here right now (it's midnight and I really need to get to bed). Look in the reference section of "Good Calories/Bad Calories" for studies.
For those who do well on vegetarian diets, good for you. I'm not one of you. I'll keep enjoying my pork chops and ribeye steaks with garlic butter. And I'll keep enjoying my ability to walk, climb stairs, lift weights and dance Zumba at the gym, and earn a living in a field I enjoy.
-------------------- "To eat is a necessity, but to eat intelligently is an art" - LaRochefoucauld
Lyme neuro symptoms for 20+ years. Infected in Maryland. Diagnosed with Lyme Jan 2011. (previously diagnosed with CFS, Fibro, peripheral neuropathy) Posts: 261 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Dr. K. "ignorant." I am sure you are aware that he only has patients that can't walk, are in pain sitting, on stretchers or in wheelchairs, or brainfogged, and whatever else. Usually he sees people after they have been to 30 doctors. And that probably has taught him over many years that it isn't working for the people he sees when they tell him of their eating habits.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
If in fact he did say that, I said the comment was ignorant. To generalize that all vegetarians are unhealthy, is not a well informed statement.
It seems to me his words may have been taken out of context so I don't want to speculate any further.
posted
A friend of mine sent me this link today. I thought it was funny this should come along when I'm involved in this discussion of vegetarian diets.
I post this with a smile and a hug. I'm not trying to convert anyone!
-------------------- "To eat is a necessity, but to eat intelligently is an art" - LaRochefoucauld
Lyme neuro symptoms for 20+ years. Infected in Maryland. Diagnosed with Lyme Jan 2011. (previously diagnosed with CFS, Fibro, peripheral neuropathy) Posts: 261 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
After years of pain and misery, I decided there was enough suffering in my life, I'm not going to be an active part of something else suffering too.
Now I'm a vegan, and I'd say since going from vegetarian to vegan, I feel better. Nothing dramatic, but I thought I would feel worse, so I was surprised. I'm more even in how I feel.
I don't know who Dr. K is (you all post about him all the time) but as we all know, Dr's can be wrong.
Even if I did feel better eating meat, I wouldn't do it, Lyme changed me and I can't change back.
Posts: 243 | From chicago | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
I am off right now -- to the store getting a pound of bacon! It sounds sooooooo good right now!
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
| IP: Logged |
posted
A lot of my family's health problems improved when we all switched to a vegetarian diet about 8 years ago. My parents are elderly and their doctors say they are in great shape for their age; my sister is young and never gets sick. As for me, well, I'm sick of course, but my doctor said that my diet is probably helping me recover faster than I would otherwise (but who knows). I guess it's not for everyone but it definitely works for us =)
-------------------- Currently infected with Lyme, Babesia, Ehrlichiosis, Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever, Mycoplasma, & Q-fever.
10 months into treatment, currently on Bicillin, Rocephin, Doxy, Biaxin, and Mepron. Posts: 87 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2010
| IP: Logged |
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
I have always loved milk and cheese and was horrified when I learned that it is one of the primary causes of type one diabetes in children.
The reason has nothing to do with how it is produced. It is because the casein protein resembles the beta cells which is what produces insulin in the pancreas.
When children develop an allergy to the milk their bodies immune system can also attack the beta cells, destroying them. The countries with the highest rate of milk production also have the highest rate of type one diabetes.
There is good news though. The protein is specific to Holstein cows. Jersey cows milk is safer. Goat's milk is safe.
If you ate "a lot of carbs" and were not healthy, you were probably not eating the right kind of carbs. Eating a lot of bread,white rice, potatoes and especially processed, refined foods in boxes is not healthy.
A good diet includes complex carbs such as brown rice, barley, quina, vegetables, fruits, beans, nuts, seeds, no sugar, no white flour, no processed refined foods, no nitrates or preservatives, .. . You greatly limit sweeteners, only using raw unprocessed natural sweeteners such as honey and maple syrup. Fat is primarily olive oil, coconut oil, flax oil and grape seed oil.
Follow this diet and you will be healthy. I am shocked that Dr. K made that kind of statement. It is really ignorant and it completely alters my opinion about him. I was considering contacting him for an appointment. i won't now.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
Watch Oprah today. She is having a show on what goes on at the slaughter yard. If you eat meat you need to see it.
When I was young and healthy my reason for being a vegetarian was to not be responsible for inflicting suffering on animals. As I now live in cattle country I am even more aware of how these animals are treated.
Stock yards produce 20 per cent of the methane gas responsible for global warming. Free range cattle damage public lands overgrazing them, and drive out wild life. They also ruin the banks of streams and rivers and pollute them with waste.
A quote from one source:
"In addition, animals raised for food in the U.S. consume 90 percent of the country�s soy crop, 80 percent of its corn crop, and 70 percent of its grain. "
�If all the grain currently fed to livestock in the United States were consumed directly by people, the number of people who could be fed would be nearly 800 million,� says Cornell ecologist David Pimentel. He adds that irresponsible livestock farming is directly or indirectly responsible for much of the soil erosion in the U.S. "
The earth cannot sustain the "standard of living" we have enjoyed. The "green revolution" was using petroleium products to replace fertilizers, pesticides etc. We do this because we eat more and more meat and there are more and more people to feed.
It is not just health that should wake up us. It is our moral responsiblility to the earth and the other humans less fortunate than us that our habits affect.
That is all I will say. It is an awakening for me. Not for you.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
I agree, Nefferdun, you explained that very well. It's all about being conscientious when it comes to what we put in our bodies. It's not as simple as just consuming whatever is put in front of us. Not saying that everyone does that, but there are many that do.
Did you ever stop to think that what you have on your breakfast plate or in between your sandwich bread could destroy your lungs? I am willing to bet it never even occurred to you. Well you had better think again, a new study has concluded like foods such as bacon, ham and cured meat high in nitrites actually harm a persons lungs and breathing. The study conducted by Dr. Rui Jiang of New Yorks Columbia University medical center is shedding new light on the dangers of previously thought to be benign food additives.
quote:Originally posted by GiGi: I am off right now -- to the store getting a pound of bacon! It sounds sooooooo good right now!
Always sounds good! Better yet - bacon wrapped filet mignon or bacon wrapped shrimp. Bacon wrapped around anything
Nitrite-free bacon is available.
-------------------- "To eat is a necessity, but to eat intelligently is an art" - LaRochefoucauld
Lyme neuro symptoms for 20+ years. Infected in Maryland. Diagnosed with Lyme Jan 2011. (previously diagnosed with CFS, Fibro, peripheral neuropathy) Posts: 261 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
We sell nitrate-free bacon @ our health store
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
I really don't want to burst your bubble, but I do want to point out facts. Studies that have been done.
To add to the confusion, consumers are being misled by labeling on meats that states "nitrate free", when in reality, all that means is there are no additional nitrates being added. Meat producers who are targeting the organic demographic will substitute celery juice for chemical nitrates, even though the end-result is the exact same thing.
In fact, tests done by Cook's Illustrated found out there were actually significantly more nitrites in the "nitrate-free" labeled bacon than the regular packaged bacon.
I know there are nitrates in vegetable too... It's hard to get away from them but the studies show that it's consumers of red meat that are in a higher risk group.
quote:Originally posted by gambler: You guys should try chocolate covered bacon.
Oh, absolutely, but it's got to be dark chocolate
-------------------- "To eat is a necessity, but to eat intelligently is an art" - LaRochefoucauld
Lyme neuro symptoms for 20+ years. Infected in Maryland. Diagnosed with Lyme Jan 2011. (previously diagnosed with CFS, Fibro, peripheral neuropathy) Posts: 261 | From Colorado | Registered: Oct 2010
| IP: Logged |
My Dr.F is finding that lyme and company people are improving on a Veggie diet that is LOW fat. Basically LOW fat diets (no meats) McDougal diet.
I don't follow it (even though he's my dr.) I need my protein from meat,but do low fat.
How many of you that are vegans or vegaterians are improving? How many aren't.
How many of us that eat low fat and meat are improving? How many aren't.
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
I do best on High protein, High Fat
Animal + nut butters + veggies + brown rice
=
my diet
I tried food combining, and thus grains/starches alone - failed miserably.
I do follow one food combining rule I eat fruit alone about 20-30 mins before meal
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
I've had Lyme and Co's for at least 10 maybe even up to 26 years.. I tried abx once for a week several months ago. I've always eaten very little meat. 3 years ago I gave up meat completely, during which time I averaged most days 70-75%, I am now 75-80% with the help of herbal formulas.
I attribute my improvement to a vegetarian diet.
My brother is a strong believer in the McDougall diet and is a very healthy almost 50 year old..
posted
I'm just shy of 20 years with Lyme. I've always liked meat, specifically red meat. Always felt better after eating a giant burger or steak or something.
Did a little reading on B vitamins and kidney stones. Seems low B6 is related to kidney stones, which I'm on my 27th stone. Protein is a big one for me as well.
Cholesterol has always been good, I've been pretty lean my entire life aside from some medication side effects.
Different strokes for different folks. When I cut back on my meat I get worse. I am already supplementing B's, multivitamin, etc...
Some of you get better on veggie diet, some of us get much worse.
-------------------- Ticks suck. Posts: 140 | From Alabama | Registered: Aug 2009
| IP: Logged |
MichaelTampa
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 24868
posted
I am on an organic vegan diet and am improving.
I wouldn't call it a low-fat diet, though. I take a modest protein supplement, but eat plenty of nuts/seeds, grains in form of bread/pasta, and vegetables. Probably several tablespoons of oil (coconut and olive) per day.
Grains are primarily millet and rice, so very low gluten, but not completely avoiding it. Yes, I know some say whole grains only with lyme rather than the bad glycemic bread/pasta, but my body cannot digest whole grains unless turned into these floury products. I'm doing just fine with the yeast battle these days, it was a long and hard fight, I did limit my grains/carbs more severly earlier on.
Not a whole lot of beans, but frozen (green) lima beans sometimes, and sometimes tofu.
I also severely limit onions, garlic, and mustard, just one meal per week, as these supply food for parasites per Hulda Clark. I know this is an enormous help for me.
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
I find this interesting for the most part as opposed to petty.
On the question of land and cattle, from what I have heard free range cattle actually restore grasslands.
There is a balance even for land use with animals and plants.
A world dedicated to disproportional plant use will fail as well.
There are a lot of factors which go into food usage and environmental sustainablity.
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
I just turned 64 years old and I have been off all red meat for two years. I am currently working toward vegetarian - fish and chicken now and then.
I am going out in a few minutes to ride two horses - one of them green broke. I usually ride bareback and I can jump two and a half feet without a saddle. I have ups and downs but I have only been bed ridden for one month at the beginning of treatment.
I also look younger than my age. The farrier was surprised to learn how old I am and said, "you look so LIVELY!" I guess you should look half dead at this age.
I attribute my health to my diet and habits. I should be sicker than you younger people but when I read your stories I feel much better off. I tested positive for three infections and may have four or more so that is not the reason.
mattnapa "from what I have heard free range cattle actually restore grasslands".
That is not true. I told you I live in cattle country. There are 300 cows behind our property and it is full of noxious weeds. We have cattle graze here sometimes but they are very destructive.
They are also injured in transport from place to place. I don't want to have them here any more. Last time there were three that were lame and one of them had to be slaughtered.
The man called the killer and slaughtered it right in front of the other cows. A calf inside also had to be killed. The next day the cow's older baby was at the site crying for it's mother.
There is no such thing as humanly killing millions of animals. They know what is happening, they fear it and that is what you are eating.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
I eat 95 percent organic vegetables, grass fed abx and hormone free beef, free range chickens, organic eggs, butter, etc and have been improving in my health ever since I started eating this way.
Sally Fallon wrote a book "Nourishing Traditions" which explains this eating philosophy and has great recipes in it.
Almost 500 hundred people give it nearly a 5 star rating on Amazon. Everyone has to chose the diet that they believe works best for them. This is what's working for me.
posted
I look at this problem from the molecular point of view. Meat or plants, both contain proteins, which are simply differently shaped proteins,broken back ,in stomach, to amino-acids . But meat contains more "packed proteins" , so u can get more energy from it. The problem might be an animal fat, I believe, which can store toxins or chemicals for longer period of time. If animal eats badly or is injected with drugs... but who knows...
So meat or plant, does not matter. U just have to eat more plants to substitute for a little meat.
Posts: 636 | From Wroclaw, Poland | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
When you eat animals you are at the top of the food chain and getting 6 times the amount of toxins found in plants. It is not just abx and hormones you need to worry about. There are decades of chemicals in the soil that accumulate in the fat of the animal.
In addition the protein in animals is harder on the body than plant based protein. It contributes to kidney disease and neuropathy. The fat clogs arteries which leads to heart disease. Even dementia has been linked to consuming animals.
Obesity is becoming the number one health problem in this country leading to diabetes, heart disease etc. Vegetarians are rarely fat and diabetics converting to a vegan diet rapidly lose weight and in many instances no longer need the medication required while they were on a meat diet.
mattnapa, the cattle industry is very clever at making their industry look beneficial. Here in Montana overgrazing of public lands is so serious there was a bill to try to eliminate the wild horses because they compete with the cows for rangelands.
In fact Montana passed a bill to build slaughter houses to produce horse meat and planned to import horses from all over. Although we do not eat horse meat in this country they planned to send it to foreign countries like China and some parts of Europe where it is considered to be a delicacy.
Horses are not like cattle. They are more aware, more intelligent and much more sensitive. The stun gun approach is not very effective with them because they have long necks and panic, avoiding the impact. There have been many instances of them proceeding into slaughter without being dead.
The cattle also compete with wild animals such as elk and bison. Now that wolves have been re-introducted hunters complain that there are not enough elk and are pushing to have a wolf hunting season. There has already been one season here and a ongoing battle for more.
With the human population growing out of control, how much longer can we all eat meat? To make room for the vast herds we need to fulfill our lust for meat, we need to sacrifice other species.
Obviously the entire world cannot share our standard of living or our diet preferences. As we become fatter, huge populatiions on the planet are literally starving to death. There would be no starvation in the world if the land used to produce cattle feed was used to produce food for people instead.
It has been said that we are the best fed people in the world but the most mal-nourished. In areas of the world where food is primarily plant based there is much less disease. How would this not relate to lyme disease?
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
I don't know where you're getting your information from, but you are wrong about "fat clogging arteries". Simply not true. When this nation turned away from natural foods and started eating so called, non fat, or reduced fat foods, that's when people started getting more obese. They figured if there isn't any fat in it or low fat then they'll get healthier. Simply is not the case. It's processed foods, sugar, white flours and all the other junk that clogs up the arteries, not the fat, especially the good fats that our bodies need to function properly.
Eating good wholesome grass fed beef with organic vegetables and fruits is NOT going to clog up your arteries.
posted
Agree with eating good wholesome grass fed beef with good veggies.
I'm from Montana too, my daughter and son-in-law have a good 600+ head of cattle up there.
The things they go through to keep the land enviromentally sound and the up keep of the cows to keep them healthy are unfounded. They are all grass fed.
Never heard of the overgrazing in MT, as the eastern part of the state has plenty room for moving cattle to rotate pasture land, in which the ranchers do all the time.
That being said... we're talking about eating what's correct for our bodies.
I need protein, I have to have my beef, chicken, fish and still a low fat diet. I am improving on this 'diet' also.
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I believe that you need to do whatever is best for you personally...but I will say those who do eat dairy and meat may want to be careful where they get it with things going the way they are in this country with Monsanto...GE foods are bad for you regardess of what you eat....cattle will soon be eating GE feed, therefor so will you unless your milk/meat comes from an organic, non-GE source and even then you can't be 100% sure there was no cross contamination...
Posts: 206 | From In the shadow of a mountain | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nefferdun- I think your point concerning the world being able to sustain itself in terms of meat is a fair one.
I would add to that however that we will soon face a crisis in food production in general.
The limited supply of natural gas and petroleum that are the heart of our fertilization system is going to run out some day.
And when that happens a crisis is inevitable.
I do disagree that animals do not play a necessary role however in creating healthy soil and healthy humans.
You might want to google Lierre Keith on this subject
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
rvr, you are right. Sad that Monsanto has screwed up so much of our land and helped make millions of people sick in the process. Lots of blood on their hands.
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
"Heart disease is the number one health problem in the United States today, and according to the American Heart Association, it is the single leading cause of death. Most heart disease is diet-related�caused by diets high in animal products.
Meat, eggs, and dairy products are high in cholesterol and saturated fat.
(No plant food in the world contains any cholesterol.)
As these fatty substances build up inside the walls of arteries as "plaque," blood flow to all areas of the body is impeded. This artery damage is called "atherosclerosis."
When too little blood reaches various regions of the body, normal bodily functions are impaired, setting people up for a number of diseases, most notably heart disease."
The average vegan's cholesterol is 133. The average vegetarian's cholesterol level is 161. The average meat eaters cholesterol level is 210.
hadlyme, eastern Montana is dry primarily dry without much grass. Here is a quote:
"On March 10, 1913 Charlie Russell, the famous cowboy artist from Great Falls, wrote to his friend: Bob you wouldent know the town or the country either it's all grass side down now.
Wher once you rode circle and I night wrangled, a gopher couldn't graze now. The boosters say it's a better country than it ever was but it looks like hell to me I liked it better when it belonged to God it sure was his country when we knew it."
"Over the years, both pesticide use and grazing livestock near watersheds have contributed to a decrease in water quality throughout much of the state. "
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I grew up in Eastern MT... not as old as Charlie Russell and his old quote.. but it's not always dry up there. Last yr was record rainfall and this year they have 72inches of snow on those prairie. Lived there way to long to know it's not always dry.
Point is.... new pesticides, new fertizilers, you name it... things are computerized now with land for grazing and for crops for the best of people and the land.
My in-laws have fought battles with cancer. They make sure everything they use with the cattle and land are safe for everyone.
You quote from a Yahoo/Answers about the cholesterol which states the meat eaters level. It's really not a proven fact, especially from that site.
Here's more info....
A Dutch review of the issue concluded that a vegetarian diet conferred no more benefit than a diet that included plenty of unrefined plant foods like vegetables, fruits, nuts and legumes, but which also included animal protein.
On the other hand, according to their literature review, a vegetarian diet does significantly increase one�s risk of certain nutrient deficiencies like vitamin B12, calcium, iron, and zinc � especially in vegans.
Another study found that vegetarian diets were associated with lower vitamin B12 status and therefore to increased levels of artery-clogging homocysteine.
A Slovakian researcher has stated that the healthiest inhabitants of Northern Europe are from Iceland, Switzerland and Scandinavia, populations that consume high amounts of animal protein.
SO.. again, we're off topic...
But the bottom line is...
EAT HEALTHY.... and we all need to do what we feel is best for our bodies and minds.
We're all different.... isn't that great that God made us all so unique in life AND in this disease.
Happy eating.
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
nefferdun- Trying to respect your opinion here, but you just seem to ignore all those who have posted that meat eaters can eat healthy diets.
13 is too low of a cholesterol level in my opinion.
There is plenty of info that shows cholesterol numbers like that are unhealthy
Not to mention that the overall cholesterol number is a por indicator of general health and heart risk
Vegetarians as a whole are more concerned about their health, so this is likely to skew general comparisions with meat eaters.
Virtually all studies that have assesed fat intake included trans fats, so there is no evidence that high healthy fat diets are detrimental to health
As I recall you were struggling with your health lately, so it puzzles me why you do not give healthy meats and fats a try
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
Once you have established a good vegetarian diet, there is no way that you would ever consider subjecting your body to eating the flesh of an animal. Not to mention that the idea of humanely killing animals does not exist imo..
Of course there are those, that have fallen back to eating meat, but most us would never go back.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
Razzle
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 30398
posted
And then there are those of us who are vegetarian not by choice but because of food allergies (eggs, fish, shellfish, beef, turkey) and intolerances (all other animal flesh)...
I can eat dairy, but shouldn't (borderline allergic). But I do eat some cheese and occasional cooked milk because I can't get enough protein from the few plant-sourced foods I can still tolerate...and any milk product I do eat I prefer to get organic...it tastes better and doesn't bother my stomach nearly as much...
I think the "eat right 4 your type" folks had a few things right in their book... Both my Mom and Husband are Type O and they both do better with meat in their diet. I'm type A and do fine without meat (to me, to start eating meat again would be simply too repulsive and revolting...and I came to this conclusion before I saw a video of the inside of a slaughterhouse...but it doesn't bother me that others eat meat - it's their choice).
BTW, it may be the lack of Vitamin K (a fat-soluble vitamin) that contributes to calcification in the arteries (atherosclerosis)... Vit. K is the forgotten component of bone health... Vit. K helps put the calcium into the bones so it isn't floating around in the blood where it can precipitate out and stick to the artery walls...
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
lululymemom said- Once you have established a good vegetarian diet, there is no way that you would ever consider subjecting your body to eating the flesh of an animal
Why?
On the question of animal consciousness and food.
If animals are raised humanely for food does the fact they are killed in the end make the sum total of their lives a horror?
In other words if your concern is for the experiential nature of animals is it better to have not lived at all as opposed to a pleasant life that ends in a death that they may know is coming?
I would like to think i am sensitive to the needs of animals, but there are parts of the vegetarian philosophy that I do not understand
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Razzle- Good to see you here. I do remember you from our brief communications at the other board. And yes I agree K-2 may be one of the most important factors in atherosclerosis.
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
hadlyme, you write the healthiest Europeans are from Scandinavia, Switzerland and northern europe. Denmark has the highest rate of cancer in the world.
Finland, which has the highest consumption of milk also has the highest rate of diabetes.
What lead me to these facts - have you all forgotten? My son was diagnosed with diabetes and my first response was "Atkins diet". I thought meat and steamed vegetables would protect him. But after doing some research I found out that is dead wrong.
I did not want to eat mammals but I was not pushing it off on anyone else. Article after article came up with test results proving a vegan diet is much healthier for diabetics. I was shocked.
I also became aware that the diabetics I know that ate meat, including family members, deteriorated very rapidly. An uncle had both legs amputated within ten years of diagnoses. My mother nearly lost her leg and was practically blind. My son's girlfriend's aunt had a stroke and could not walk. All meat eaters.
Was there really a way to prevent the neuropathy, kidney damage, blindness and heart disease caused by this disease?
My son has a degree in microbiology so he is not a person easily persuaded by his mother. I had to produce convincing studies and evidence to prove this is not theory, or someone's blog - this is based upon indisputable scientific evidence.
It is hard to make such a big change in your way of life. How can you do it if your livelihood depends on the old lifestyle? That is understandable.
As for my health, it is very good for my age and the diseases I have. When I got sick again I thought at first I was relapsing but that wasn't it. I wasn't treating babesia because I didn't know I had it. I am responding to treatment. I am getting better and I hope to eventually be well. My health has improved since i quit eating meat.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nefferdun- Glad you are doing better, and it was probably inappropriate for me to suggest you change anything.
I hope you will believe it was in the spirit of help as opposed to some patronizing attitude concerning meat eating.
I do not know enough about diabetes to dispute what you have to say on the subject, and am always open to looking at evidence
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Have you all read The China Study? I suggest you read it - you can pick up a copy at Whole Foods now or amazon. There is a documentary coming out as well soon...Forks Over Knives I believe it is called. I suggest everyone see it.
I also watched Oprah last week and have seen Food, Inc. and will never let a piece of red meat or pork touch my mouth again. I have never cared for chicken or turkey - it doesn't taste good to me. I will eat salmon. I am trying to cut out dairy -it is a transition. I really care for animals, so this is my decision for my life -- that's all. I'm not sure if it will help me at all - it may harm me. I just don't care to take part in it anymore.
After reading so much and seeing these documentaries, it feels very wrong to me and I don't know what to say to my boys when they ask about what a hamburger is or why are we eating a chicken leg? It's hard for me to tell them we slaughter pigs so that we can enjoy a meal of high-fat bacon. the suffering that animal had to go through just so that I can enjoy a meal...well, seems selfish to me when there are alternatives out there.
This is just my opinion. My friends can eat all the meat they want and I don't look down upon them at all or try to change them in any way. It is a very personal decision.
Posts: 618 | From NC | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had hoped it would be clear that many on the canivore side are not recommending eating meat from large scale institutions which produce dangerous meats and wretched conditions for the animals.
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
Here's an article on grass fed beef suggesting the more fat it has the healthier it is--interesting.
posted
I absolutely love being a vegetarian. I think it has helped my health overall. And I feel much more happy and calm!
Good luck to you whatever your choice.
Posts: 636 | From Saratoga County, NY | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
More interesting articles and blogs on this subject. One blogger is kinda rough around the edges when it comes to his language, so if you're offended by the "F" word you may not want to go to the second link I posted. It's not that bad, but just want you to be aware. : )
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[group hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic