nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
When you eat animals you are at the top of the food chain and getting 6 times the amount of toxins found in plants. It is not just abx and hormones you need to worry about. There are decades of chemicals in the soil that accumulate in the fat of the animal.
In addition the protein in animals is harder on the body than plant based protein. It contributes to kidney disease and neuropathy. The fat clogs arteries which leads to heart disease. Even dementia has been linked to consuming animals.
Obesity is becoming the number one health problem in this country leading to diabetes, heart disease etc. Vegetarians are rarely fat and diabetics converting to a vegan diet rapidly lose weight and in many instances no longer need the medication required while they were on a meat diet.
mattnapa, the cattle industry is very clever at making their industry look beneficial. Here in Montana overgrazing of public lands is so serious there was a bill to try to eliminate the wild horses because they compete with the cows for rangelands.
In fact Montana passed a bill to build slaughter houses to produce horse meat and planned to import horses from all over. Although we do not eat horse meat in this country they planned to send it to foreign countries like China and some parts of Europe where it is considered to be a delicacy.
Horses are not like cattle. They are more aware, more intelligent and much more sensitive. The stun gun approach is not very effective with them because they have long necks and panic, avoiding the impact. There have been many instances of them proceeding into slaughter without being dead.
The cattle also compete with wild animals such as elk and bison. Now that wolves have been re-introducted hunters complain that there are not enough elk and are pushing to have a wolf hunting season. There has already been one season here and a ongoing battle for more.
With the human population growing out of control, how much longer can we all eat meat? To make room for the vast herds we need to fulfill our lust for meat, we need to sacrifice other species.
Obviously the entire world cannot share our standard of living or our diet preferences. As we become fatter, huge populatiions on the planet are literally starving to death. There would be no starvation in the world if the land used to produce cattle feed was used to produce food for people instead.
It has been said that we are the best fed people in the world but the most mal-nourished. In areas of the world where food is primarily plant based there is much less disease. How would this not relate to lyme disease?
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
I don't know where you're getting your information from, but you are wrong about "fat clogging arteries". Simply not true. When this nation turned away from natural foods and started eating so called, non fat, or reduced fat foods, that's when people started getting more obese. They figured if there isn't any fat in it or low fat then they'll get healthier. Simply is not the case. It's processed foods, sugar, white flours and all the other junk that clogs up the arteries, not the fat, especially the good fats that our bodies need to function properly.
Eating good wholesome grass fed beef with organic vegetables and fruits is NOT going to clog up your arteries.
posted
Agree with eating good wholesome grass fed beef with good veggies.
I'm from Montana too, my daughter and son-in-law have a good 600+ head of cattle up there.
The things they go through to keep the land enviromentally sound and the up keep of the cows to keep them healthy are unfounded. They are all grass fed.
Never heard of the overgrazing in MT, as the eastern part of the state has plenty room for moving cattle to rotate pasture land, in which the ranchers do all the time.
That being said... we're talking about eating what's correct for our bodies.
I need protein, I have to have my beef, chicken, fish and still a low fat diet. I am improving on this 'diet' also.
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
I believe that you need to do whatever is best for you personally...but I will say those who do eat dairy and meat may want to be careful where they get it with things going the way they are in this country with Monsanto...GE foods are bad for you regardess of what you eat....cattle will soon be eating GE feed, therefor so will you unless your milk/meat comes from an organic, non-GE source and even then you can't be 100% sure there was no cross contamination...
Posts: 206 | From In the shadow of a mountain | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nefferdun- I think your point concerning the world being able to sustain itself in terms of meat is a fair one.
I would add to that however that we will soon face a crisis in food production in general.
The limited supply of natural gas and petroleum that are the heart of our fertilization system is going to run out some day.
And when that happens a crisis is inevitable.
I do disagree that animals do not play a necessary role however in creating healthy soil and healthy humans.
You might want to google Lierre Keith on this subject
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
rvr, you are right. Sad that Monsanto has screwed up so much of our land and helped make millions of people sick in the process. Lots of blood on their hands.
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
"Heart disease is the number one health problem in the United States today, and according to the American Heart Association, it is the single leading cause of death. Most heart disease is diet-related�caused by diets high in animal products.
Meat, eggs, and dairy products are high in cholesterol and saturated fat.
(No plant food in the world contains any cholesterol.)
As these fatty substances build up inside the walls of arteries as "plaque," blood flow to all areas of the body is impeded. This artery damage is called "atherosclerosis."
When too little blood reaches various regions of the body, normal bodily functions are impaired, setting people up for a number of diseases, most notably heart disease."
The average vegan's cholesterol is 133. The average vegetarian's cholesterol level is 161. The average meat eaters cholesterol level is 210.
hadlyme, eastern Montana is dry primarily dry without much grass. Here is a quote:
"On March 10, 1913 Charlie Russell, the famous cowboy artist from Great Falls, wrote to his friend: Bob you wouldent know the town or the country either it's all grass side down now.
Wher once you rode circle and I night wrangled, a gopher couldn't graze now. The boosters say it's a better country than it ever was but it looks like hell to me I liked it better when it belonged to God it sure was his country when we knew it."
"Over the years, both pesticide use and grazing livestock near watersheds have contributed to a decrease in water quality throughout much of the state. "
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I grew up in Eastern MT... not as old as Charlie Russell and his old quote.. but it's not always dry up there. Last yr was record rainfall and this year they have 72inches of snow on those prairie. Lived there way to long to know it's not always dry.
Point is.... new pesticides, new fertizilers, you name it... things are computerized now with land for grazing and for crops for the best of people and the land.
My in-laws have fought battles with cancer. They make sure everything they use with the cattle and land are safe for everyone.
You quote from a Yahoo/Answers about the cholesterol which states the meat eaters level. It's really not a proven fact, especially from that site.
Here's more info....
A Dutch review of the issue concluded that a vegetarian diet conferred no more benefit than a diet that included plenty of unrefined plant foods like vegetables, fruits, nuts and legumes, but which also included animal protein.
On the other hand, according to their literature review, a vegetarian diet does significantly increase one�s risk of certain nutrient deficiencies like vitamin B12, calcium, iron, and zinc � especially in vegans.
Another study found that vegetarian diets were associated with lower vitamin B12 status and therefore to increased levels of artery-clogging homocysteine.
A Slovakian researcher has stated that the healthiest inhabitants of Northern Europe are from Iceland, Switzerland and Scandinavia, populations that consume high amounts of animal protein.
SO.. again, we're off topic...
But the bottom line is...
EAT HEALTHY.... and we all need to do what we feel is best for our bodies and minds.
We're all different.... isn't that great that God made us all so unique in life AND in this disease.
Happy eating.
-------------------- Lyme, Babs, Fry Bug..... Whatever it is, may a treatment be discovered to make us all whole again! Posts: 941 | From AZ-MT | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
nefferdun- Trying to respect your opinion here, but you just seem to ignore all those who have posted that meat eaters can eat healthy diets.
13 is too low of a cholesterol level in my opinion.
There is plenty of info that shows cholesterol numbers like that are unhealthy
Not to mention that the overall cholesterol number is a por indicator of general health and heart risk
Vegetarians as a whole are more concerned about their health, so this is likely to skew general comparisions with meat eaters.
Virtually all studies that have assesed fat intake included trans fats, so there is no evidence that high healthy fat diets are detrimental to health
As I recall you were struggling with your health lately, so it puzzles me why you do not give healthy meats and fats a try
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
lululymemom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26405
posted
Once you have established a good vegetarian diet, there is no way that you would ever consider subjecting your body to eating the flesh of an animal. Not to mention that the idea of humanely killing animals does not exist imo..
Of course there are those, that have fallen back to eating meat, but most us would never go back.
Bartonella henselae 1:100 Posts: 2027 | From British Columbia | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
Razzle
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 30398
posted
And then there are those of us who are vegetarian not by choice but because of food allergies (eggs, fish, shellfish, beef, turkey) and intolerances (all other animal flesh)...
I can eat dairy, but shouldn't (borderline allergic). But I do eat some cheese and occasional cooked milk because I can't get enough protein from the few plant-sourced foods I can still tolerate...and any milk product I do eat I prefer to get organic...it tastes better and doesn't bother my stomach nearly as much...
I think the "eat right 4 your type" folks had a few things right in their book... Both my Mom and Husband are Type O and they both do better with meat in their diet. I'm type A and do fine without meat (to me, to start eating meat again would be simply too repulsive and revolting...and I came to this conclusion before I saw a video of the inside of a slaughterhouse...but it doesn't bother me that others eat meat - it's their choice).
BTW, it may be the lack of Vitamin K (a fat-soluble vitamin) that contributes to calcification in the arteries (atherosclerosis)... Vit. K is the forgotten component of bone health... Vit. K helps put the calcium into the bones so it isn't floating around in the blood where it can precipitate out and stick to the artery walls...
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4167 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
lululymemom said- Once you have established a good vegetarian diet, there is no way that you would ever consider subjecting your body to eating the flesh of an animal
Why?
On the question of animal consciousness and food.
If animals are raised humanely for food does the fact they are killed in the end make the sum total of their lives a horror?
In other words if your concern is for the experiential nature of animals is it better to have not lived at all as opposed to a pleasant life that ends in a death that they may know is coming?
I would like to think i am sensitive to the needs of animals, but there are parts of the vegetarian philosophy that I do not understand
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Razzle- Good to see you here. I do remember you from our brief communications at the other board. And yes I agree K-2 may be one of the most important factors in atherosclerosis.
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
hadlyme, you write the healthiest Europeans are from Scandinavia, Switzerland and northern europe. Denmark has the highest rate of cancer in the world.
Finland, which has the highest consumption of milk also has the highest rate of diabetes.
What lead me to these facts - have you all forgotten? My son was diagnosed with diabetes and my first response was "Atkins diet". I thought meat and steamed vegetables would protect him. But after doing some research I found out that is dead wrong.
I did not want to eat mammals but I was not pushing it off on anyone else. Article after article came up with test results proving a vegan diet is much healthier for diabetics. I was shocked.
I also became aware that the diabetics I know that ate meat, including family members, deteriorated very rapidly. An uncle had both legs amputated within ten years of diagnoses. My mother nearly lost her leg and was practically blind. My son's girlfriend's aunt had a stroke and could not walk. All meat eaters.
Was there really a way to prevent the neuropathy, kidney damage, blindness and heart disease caused by this disease?
My son has a degree in microbiology so he is not a person easily persuaded by his mother. I had to produce convincing studies and evidence to prove this is not theory, or someone's blog - this is based upon indisputable scientific evidence.
It is hard to make such a big change in your way of life. How can you do it if your livelihood depends on the old lifestyle? That is understandable.
As for my health, it is very good for my age and the diseases I have. When I got sick again I thought at first I was relapsing but that wasn't it. I wasn't treating babesia because I didn't know I had it. I am responding to treatment. I am getting better and I hope to eventually be well. My health has improved since i quit eating meat.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Nefferdun- Glad you are doing better, and it was probably inappropriate for me to suggest you change anything.
I hope you will believe it was in the spirit of help as opposed to some patronizing attitude concerning meat eating.
I do not know enough about diabetes to dispute what you have to say on the subject, and am always open to looking at evidence
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
Have you all read The China Study? I suggest you read it - you can pick up a copy at Whole Foods now or amazon. There is a documentary coming out as well soon...Forks Over Knives I believe it is called. I suggest everyone see it.
I also watched Oprah last week and have seen Food, Inc. and will never let a piece of red meat or pork touch my mouth again. I have never cared for chicken or turkey - it doesn't taste good to me. I will eat salmon. I am trying to cut out dairy -it is a transition. I really care for animals, so this is my decision for my life -- that's all. I'm not sure if it will help me at all - it may harm me. I just don't care to take part in it anymore.
After reading so much and seeing these documentaries, it feels very wrong to me and I don't know what to say to my boys when they ask about what a hamburger is or why are we eating a chicken leg? It's hard for me to tell them we slaughter pigs so that we can enjoy a meal of high-fat bacon. the suffering that animal had to go through just so that I can enjoy a meal...well, seems selfish to me when there are alternatives out there.
This is just my opinion. My friends can eat all the meat they want and I don't look down upon them at all or try to change them in any way. It is a very personal decision.
Posts: 618 | From NC | Registered: Oct 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I had hoped it would be clear that many on the canivore side are not recommending eating meat from large scale institutions which produce dangerous meats and wretched conditions for the animals.
Posts: 357 | From California | Registered: Jun 2010
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
Here's an article on grass fed beef suggesting the more fat it has the healthier it is--interesting.
posted
I absolutely love being a vegetarian. I think it has helped my health overall. And I feel much more happy and calm!
Good luck to you whatever your choice.
Posts: 636 | From Saratoga County, NY | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
gwb
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7273
posted
More interesting articles and blogs on this subject. One blogger is kinda rough around the edges when it comes to his language, so if you're offended by the "F" word you may not want to go to the second link I posted. It's not that bad, but just want you to be aware. : )
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic