IgG indicates a PAST infection, never goes away...just shows that you had the disease at some point
IgM is a current infection; you are not over lyme until all IgM bands disappear
My Lyme friendly doc keeps testing me and in 2 yrs my bloodwork has never changed so I still have lyme. I've had periods where I thought I was over it but that has never lasted more than 4-6 months; I've been feeling bad again since May.
Just want to know if my doc is right about the IgM...has anyone ever had it go away and if it does are you cured? Also why do I have negative IgG if I've now had this for over 2 yrs (at least)?
-------------------- TxLymie IgG-Negative IgM - Postive bands 23 and 41
Other dx: 2000: Endometriosis 2009: Chronic EBV, Mycoplasma infection, HHV6, H.pylori Posts: 297 | From Houston | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
Regarding the IgG and IgM (from Dr C) "With most infections, your immune system first forms IgM antibodies, then in about 2 to 4 weeks, you see IgG antibodies. In some infections, IgG antibodies may be detectable for years.
Because Borrelia burgdorferi is a chronic persistent infection that may last for decades, you would think patients with chronic symptoms would have positive IgG Western blots.
But actually, more IgM blots are positive in chronic borreliosis than IgG. Every time Borrelia burgdorferi reproduces itself, it may stimulate the immune system to form new IgM antibodies.
Some patients have both IgG and IgM blots positive. But if either the IgG or IgM blot is positive, overall it is a positive result.
Response to antibiotics is the same if either is positive, or both. Some antibodies against the borrelia are given more significance if they are IgG versus IgM, or vice versa.
Since this is a chronic persistent infection, this does not make a lot of sense to me. A newly formed Borrelia burgdorferi should have the same antigen parts as the previous bacteria that produced it.
But anyway, from my clinical experience, these borrelia associated bands usually predict a clinical change in symptoms with antibiotics, regardless of whether they are IgG or IgM."
Posts: 236 | From Zionsville IN | Registered: Jan 2011
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I see you are from Texas. Curious who you see? I've been seeing a houston lyme friendly doc for 2 yrs but I'm thinking I need to bite the bullet and pay to go see a real LLMD
-------------------- TxLymie IgG-Negative IgM - Postive bands 23 and 41
Other dx: 2000: Endometriosis 2009: Chronic EBV, Mycoplasma infection, HHV6, H.pylori Posts: 297 | From Houston | Registered: Jun 2009
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PS.. Most patients get tested once or maybe twice... that's all. You go by symptoms to tell if you're well or not.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Quote: " . . .you are not over lyme until all IgM bands disappear. . ." (end quote)
Not accurate. All the bands can be absent but that does not equal lyme being absent. There are also many strains of borrelia for which there are no tests.
You don't need repeated tests. Some doctors do this just to satisfy the CDC or to try to cover their own backs in case their files are called upon for review. They want to have something in black and white.
Just as lyme is a clinical diagnosis (with the help of some tests), so, too, is recovery (not the same as cure; there is no cure). Recovery is usually a long process.
Trust how you feel, how well you can function. Your body will tell you if it's tip top or not quite there yet.
Also, a lot of other issues go along with lyme (coinfections, heavy metals, liver and adrenal stress, parasites, and more) so all those need to be addressed to help the patient recover.
Rather than trust your life to a "lyme friendy" doctor, I hope that you can find a "lyme literate doctor who is ILADS-educated, very seasoned and a better diagnostician for all of the chronic stealth infections.
One who also can assess the full extent of mycoplasma and HHV-6, heavy metals, and liver and adrenal support. It can be hard to sort all those out so experience and training really matter.
It usually takes much longer than two years to reach a level of recovery regarding even just lyme. For some, maybe 3, 4 or more.
Are you treating the cyst form, too? That's vital.
Good luck. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Keebler- I haven't treated the cyst form yet. My doc did suggest flagyl last year when I was feeling a lot better. I had read about it and since I don't react well to most meds I didn't end up taking it. I know...bad decision on my part but I work full time and I just can't afford to be laid up in bed from the side affects. I'm lucky that my lyme doesn't completely put me down so I'm able to keep my job. I do need to find a new doc. Can any of you pm me with suggestions? I'm willing to travel.
-------------------- TxLymie IgG-Negative IgM - Postive bands 23 and 41
Other dx: 2000: Endometriosis 2009: Chronic EBV, Mycoplasma infection, HHV6, H.pylori Posts: 297 | From Houston | Registered: Jun 2009
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breathwork
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 567
posted
Borrellia can produce differing outer cell proteins under different conditions, hence the profile on IGG and IGM can change. This is one of the amazing and maddening things about lyme. When the bacteria is detected the immune system sends out antibodies targeted at the outer cell proteins that the bugs are expressing at that time.
As soon as the bugs realize that they are under attack, they can alter their expression of outer cell proteins in order to survive changing conditions.
Posts: 1062 | From CA USA | Registered: Jan 2001
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posted
breath..would this explain why a person is both IGG and IGM negative on 2 igenex western blots?
Posts: 267 | From South | Registered: Oct 2011
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
i went to one doctor and every single time i went in they took blood and did tests. i was spending a fortune on testing.
and i don't think all of it was necessary either.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by lost11: breath..would this explain why a person is both IGG and IGM negative on 2 igenex western blots?
- Yes.. I'll bring you more info here. Did you have any positive bands?
Reasons for Sero-negativity -- the reasons why you can test negative and still have Lyme disease.
1. Recent infection before immune response 2. Antibodies are in immune complexes 3. Spirochete encapsulated by host tissue (i.e.: lymphocytic cell walls) 4. Spirochete is deep in host tissue (i.e.: fibroblasts, neurons, etc.) 5. Blebs in body fluid, no whole organisms needed for PCR 6. No spirochetes in body fluid on day of test 7. Genetic heterogeneity (300 strains, 100 in U.S.) 8. Antigenic variability 9. Surface antigens change with temperature 10. Utilization of host protease instead of microbial protease 11. Spirochete in dormancy phase (L-form) with no cell walls 12. Recent antibiotic treatment 13. Recent anti-inflammatory treatment 14. Concomitant infection with babesia may cause immunosuppression 15. Other causes of immunosuppression 16. Lab with poor technical capability for Lyme disease 17. Lab tests not standardized for late stage disease 18. Lab tests labeled "for investigational use only" 19. CDC criteria is epidemiological not a diagnostic criteria 20. Lack of standardized control 21. Most controls use only a few strains as reference point 22. Few organisms are sometimes present 23. Encapsulated by glycoprotein "S-layer" which impairs immune recognition 24. "S"- layer binds to IgM 25. Immune deficiency 26. Possible down regulation of immune system by cytokines 27. Revised W.B. criteria fails to include most significant antigens
--- My understanding is that the LD test depends on 'free-floating' antibodies - ones not yet attached and working. A high positive test in an asymptomic person, means loads of free antibodies which could indicate that the immune system is coping well on its own. A far more sick person, who's immune system is overwhelmed, will have few if any free antibodies as they are all engaged in the fight and thus will test negative. --not sure who wrote this--
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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posted
Oh and both tests ran through the best lab iGENEX. Had double starred bands on both igm and igg.
Posts: 267 | From South | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
I did not but I will. Thank you Lyme too.
Posts: 267 | From South | Registered: Oct 2011
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susank
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 22150
posted
TxL - I think we see the same doctor.
I cannot imagine our doctor saying that about IGM and IGG. IGM's typically convert to IGG in most illnesses - but with LD/Bb they can and do persist. Unless.....the IGM is a cross-reaction to another organism - that also can have a longer than usual IGM phase. ? Or another organism - or two - or three - comes into play - over time - expressed as IGM on the WB???
posted
Whoa Lyme too. I just read Dr Cs explanation. Where can I get a degree in molecular biology?:-P Why are there variations from diff docs?
Posts: 267 | From South | Registered: Oct 2011
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quote:Originally posted by lost11: Whoa Lyme too. I just read Dr Cs explanation. Where can I get a degree in molecular biology?:-P Why are there variations from diff docs?
- Hey, at least he has it in laymen's terms!!
If you hang around here long enough you'll have that degree!!!
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