posted
I was talking to a family member about treating naturally (he has a masters degree in biology), and he told me there is no such a thing as natural treatments. He said they don't work and it's a joke. He put me down because I was thinking of seeking alternative treatments.
What do you think? What have worked for you treating naturally or antibiotics treatments?
-------------------- Ema Posts: 394 | From Southern California | Registered: Jun 2010
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- It's not about what we may "believe in" or even "believe" - it's about science and what will work.
I would not discuss this with anyone who does not understand the basic science of certain herbs.
Certainly, I would never, ever - EVER - again discuss any treatment thoughts with that family member who is so myopic. Talk about the weather, sports, etc. Don't talk at all. But leave this topic alone. Don't go there.
Of course, certain herbs have specific healing properties. Of course. Just start with the medical abstracts from around the world about garlic. Even just garlic.
Jane Goodall (or it may have been one of her peers) has documented that with chimps in the wild, knowing how to attend to their medical issuess.
Humans survived many thousands and thousands of years before the pharmaceutical industry was born.
As far as your time, energy and mental health, in all sweetness and light, I urge you not to waste time on asking anyone else (in your family or friendship circle) what they believe or believe in. It's not their business. It is yours.
This is far more complex than anyone can imagine. They are not experts. You will find one who is. What you need is a proper ILADS educated lyme literate MD &/or ND.
Few LLMDs would even consider treatment without nutritional backup. And that often includes herbs.
Few, if any LL ND, would ever consider treating with just herbs or nutritional supplements. But those who do, KNOW the science of the plants AND the science of lyme. And when to bring on the science of pharmaceuticals (and when not to do so).
Good medicine is what works.
There is no one way to do this and just about everyone who battles lyme has many tools but we need sharper minds who have traveled these roads and made it to the other side.
Find a good LL doctor and get to work. We can talk 'til the cows come home about this or that but until you are properly assessed and guided by someone with the expert knowledge you will not likely find any success against lyme.
Still, of course, there are other ways. You can read about the options in the ND thread below so you have a basis of reference.
And you can read Burranscano's basic treatment plan, too, and that of other LLMDs.
Still, it could take you decades to work through this all on your own.
Find the best and most educated / experienced LL doctor you can. Likely, it will be a combination approach, a team effort.
Be sure ALL aspects of lyme are considered. This includes all the forms and stages of Borrelia b. - coinfections and also parasites and heavy metals.
All this while keeping your liver & kidneys - and lining of your gut - safe.
Links to follow. Good luck. -
[ 02-15-2013, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
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WHY you need an ILADS "educated" or "minded" Lyme Literate doctor (whether MD or ND, or both) - starting with assessment / evaluation. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- When considering herbal / nutritional / adjunct methods:
if at all possible - because each person & each case is different - it's best to consult with an ILADS-educated LL (lyme literate) doctor who has completed four years of post-graduate medical education in the field of herbal and nutritional medicine -
- and someone who is current with ILADS' research & presentations, past and present.
Many LL NDs incorporate antibiotics (depending upon the licensing laws in their state). Some LLMDs and LL NDs have good working relationships.
When possible, it's great to have both a LLMD and LL ND and even better when they have a long-standing professional relationship.
Integrative / Holistic M.D., etc. (Be aware that those in this category can have various levels of formal herbal &/or nutritional education, perhaps even just a short course. Do ask first.)
Links to many articles and books by holistic-minded LL doctors of various degrees who all have this basic approach in common:
Understanding of the importance of addressing the infection(s) fully head-on with specific measures from all corners of medicine;
knowing which supplements have direct impact, which are only support and which are both.
You can compare and contrast many approaches.
BASIC HERBAL EDUCATIONAL & SAFETY links,
BODY WORK links with safety tailored to lyme patients,
& WHY you need an ILADS-educated, Lyme Literate Doctor (whether LLMD or LL ND, or both) -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- I thought you were brand new to lyme and new hear and then realize that you've been dealing with this for a couple years from various angles.
Availability to a good LL doctor (of any kind) is also not great (as with so many, sadly).
There are some good articles, books, etc. in the ND thread.
I see that you've tried various things.
If you can't access a LL doctor, it is good to see what has worked for others but be careful not to run in circles (I know that cycle so very well). Yet still keep at it. Connect with your area lyme support groups, too.
Take care and know that there is some way to find success. Always. -
[ 02-16-2013, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Thanks keebler, Even though I am not new to lyme, all this into is very helpful, and you are absolutely right, never will I discuss those things with anyone. It only brings me down.
I tries antibiotic treatment, and it just didn't work for me. I'd rather do something natural.
The lyme doctor who is around here treats only with antibiotics. So, if I want a treament from a professional that's the kind of treatment i'll get
-------------------- Ema Posts: 394 | From Southern California | Registered: Jun 2010
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posted
Each do different things. I've done abx for five years, and it took the pain right down. However, the bacteria mutated, evidently, and the abx no longer works for me.
I just did Calm magnesium powder this week, and my spasming muscles stopped spasming! Wow. That's what magnesium does, is relax muscles. That's why I say you have to know what each treatment accomplishes in the body.
Natural treatments that work are wonderful! You could potentially research what each does, and match your symptoms with what they affect, and try them. No rx's for lots of them.
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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posted
I personally believe that there is a place for both of them. I beleive that antibiotics are needed and that natural treatments are used to help.
I dont feel I could have gotten where Iam today on herbals alone.
Posts: 574 | From Out there somewhere | Registered: Jul 2010
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Judie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 38323
posted
I believe it depends on your body.
You might want to read this guy's blog, he controls a lot of his lyme symptoms with herbals:
When I was young, I had a health problem (not lyme) that the docs said could never be cured and could only be controlled by pharmaceuticals.
Several years after my diagnosis, I saw an ND for the first time. She had me take an herb for it. My problem went away after a few months.
It's been over 10 years and I recently had testing for it. There is no trace of the health problem that regular docs said there was no cure for 25 years ago.
Also, not all natural remedies work the same for everyone. I get an allergic reaction to Calm Magnesium (it's magnesium citrate), but I do find with other forms of magnesium, so I believe it's very individual.
Posts: 2839 | From California | Registered: Jul 2012
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posted
Medicines used in mainstream medicine are often derived from botanical products.Ask your family member to research the word Pharmacognosy- I should know as I studied it a degree level http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmacognosy. Ask him/her where digoxin or aspirin were derived from or about the potency and toxicity of deadly nightshade.
Closed minded scientists are the worst !
Posts: 174 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2009
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Keebler has given you some excellent advice and insight about options for desling with family and friends when it comes to choosing what you need to heal.
Abx have saved my life in the past, however after 4 yrs of abx taken for Lyme disease, the only protocols that helped bring me to wellness were herbs and salt/c.
Sometimes a combo of integratvie medicine will work. Herbs have been around since the beginning of time and that is what our ancestors used to heal.
You have to do your own research and look into what others on this board that have helped them the most. If you can afford a ND that would be even better, but one that is fsamiliar with getting rid of parasites.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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Do you have a Lyme Disease Association or support group in your area? You can email them and ask for names of LLND's.
Also I found my LLND by looking for someone in my area who uses Byron White herbs. There is a list on their website of people who treat with their products and they have an extended list if you call them.
I found my doctor by emailing all the ND's the Byron White people listed in my area to ask about their level of knowledge with lyme. The guy who emailed me back and was lyme literate won the "prize" of treating me. LOL.
Just a couple things you might try if you are having trouble locating a Natural Doctor...
Posts: 428 | From Midwest | Registered: Dec 2012
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
somebody once told me that there are so many undiscovered plants in the amazon that they would cure all diseases.
don't know if it's true but i believe God gave us everything we need on this planet to survive. we don't need all these drugs. i'm sure there are natural cures available. we just haven't found them.
and again, i quit mentioning lyme to anybody.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Last month, the US government has just cut channels for one major source of information and raw herbs that used to bring us some of those plants from the Amazon.
One of the very best naturopathic physicians who specialised in the plants from the Amazon has just been forced to pull her web site and no longer is permitted to import any plant material from there.
Rain-Tree.com was the site. It was superb. The highest in academic quality. And our government has killed it.
There are other products from the region through other companies but few (if any) are at top notch as Rain-Tree.
And those others will soon find their supplies dwindling and be forced to stop, too. Unless we can get our legislators to stop that. But the pharmaceutical industry is paying our lawmakers to put the gates down, with the intent of stopping import.
And, with things that we buy, through companies that we support or hold stocks in, the Amazon rainforest is being demolished. There may be little left of it if this pattern continues. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
From 1996 to 2012, Raintree Nutrition, Inc. sold the rainforest herbal supplements listed below.
These products and proprietary formulas were developed by Leslie Taylor, President and managing director of Raintree Nutrition, Inc..
Ms. Taylor has been a leader in the industry in educating people about these powerful medicinal plants of the Amazon and she has actually welcomed competition and encouraged other companies to sell them and use them in other supplement products.
In 2012, Ms. Taylor decided to close down the company and to stop selling any herbal or dietary supplements.
Regulations enforced by the FDA have progessively prohibited free speech about the value and benefits of herbal supplements, factual information about clinical research, as well as what to take them for and how to use them.
As long as Raintree Nutrition was selling herbal supplements, Ms. Taylor was limited and prohibited in what she could actually say about them.
Ms. Taylor decided that the wealth of factual and truthful information about these important plants and formulas was more important than selling products and this factual information needed to stay widely available to continue to help people.
Raintree Nutrition, Inc. officially closed and ceased selling products on December 21, 2012. Ms. Taylor then freely shared all of her proprietary formulas by posting them on the product pages below so that anyone and everyone can make them and use them.
All of the factual research and documentation about these plants have been reinstated on these product pages (previously removed by FDA demand) and linked back to the extensive Tropical Plant Database for further information (also previously removed by FDA demand. . . .
. . . Please remember that these products and formulas are no longer available from this website or from Raintree. . . .
. . . You'll need to do your own research to find other companies selling these plants and/or formulas (as now mandated by FDA regulations we cannot directly link to them). . . .
Profile of the author, a naturopathic physician. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Catgirl
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 31149
posted
Great advice given from everyone here.
I tend to agree with Jackie, I think there is a place for both, although I prefer the natural route. But sometimes, you just need the meds. Lyme comes and goes depending upon stress exposure. It can be pushed into remission, but stress will bring it out again. That's when the abx help to knock it back down.
I felt great after my first two months of abx (about two years ago). But then I went backwards, then forwards, and so on. I've been chasing that high ever since. Herbs made me feel more like myself though. I feel like I can easily live with them (currently on abx & herbs).
I think addressing parasites and heavy metals/toxins are just as important. And even with parasites, people either choose the herbal or pharma route, or both. Parasites are such a huge part of lyme.
Attacking parasites has helped reduce my babs and bart. And removing metals has helped my yeast issues. I basically use whatever works (herbs or pharma meds). So maybe that's the answer: whatever works.
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
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posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by YinYang: [QB] Yesterday I was thinking about so called alternative medicine.
If herbal treatment have been around for thousands and thousands of years, how does our society have the audacity to call them alternative?
Personally, I'm beginning to believe that pharmaceuticals are the alternative.
That said, I'm working to transition off abx to herbal now.
.................................................
I believe we were very naturalistic before 1913, when the Flexnor report was issued, saying pharmaceuticals only were to be used, and naturopaths were put out of business. 100 years of this oppression here, I understand.
Posts: 13116 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Most people who are taught in academia uphold the conditioning that they know what is right & true. Opinions change all of the time. Science is always changing it's opinion about things. It's a shame that educated people are sometimes so dogmatic in their thinking.
Academia is supported by corporate & political decisions. Without that, they will lose funding. So most people trained by academia uphold the values that it represents.
If one goes outside the box (so to speak), they end up like Ms. Taylor of Rain-tree.
So - many of us have to challenge popular opinion because our lives actually depend on it.
I think drugs have their place for sure. We also have to study herbs and supplements because they are sometimes the most effective way to go. Out illness scan outlast the effectiveness of the drugs & they can be toxic after a certain amount of time. We can also develop allerigies or drug resistant pathogens. The drug side effects can be worst than our original illness.
The other aspect of Lyme and related illness depends on detoxification. So, herbal preparations can be very helpful. Many people are extremely ignorant. You just have to do your best to avoid them.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Luvema, I am in the same boat you are. I started the cowden protocol. You can order it online.
Posts: 415 | From USA | Registered: Jun 2012
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gigimac
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 33353
posted
I am two years in to having lyme and i am still struggling with this question. I have NEVER been able to take abx the way I am supposed to.
My doc has me on multiple things and I can't get anywhere close to what the dr. wants me taking cause I just can't deal with feeling that bad.
I keep thinking maybe I should go natural. For me it is a constant cycle of thoughts. Should i stick with meds or do this or do that? I am desperate for relief yet stuck in this mental merry go round.
I am sorry I know this doesn't help but I too wish I knew which path to take.
Posts: 1534 | From Greensboro NC | Registered: Aug 2011
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posted
I think that no matter what killing agent you use, it's more of less the same. If you're going by the "kill the bacteria" philosophy, alternative and allopathic are very similar though one uses herbs.
Think of it this way, white willow bark is an herb. Aspirin is a medicine derived from that herb. Similar method of treatment.
I think you have to take a holistic view to be cured. I am well and seldom think of Lyme Disease anymore. I just do regular things to take care of myself that any "normal" almost 50 year old would need to do to be truly healthy and fit.
You HAVE to think of the whole body no matter what modality you use. Diet, exercise, sleep, rest, recreation, etc. all have to be addressed (within your means, of course). If I left out any one piece of the puzzle I would not be where I am today ... and I am healthier than most people my age (or even healthier than most who are 20 years younger than me!).
I think diet and exercise are the two most overlooked things in recovering from Lyme. It's a paradigm shift. Think of making a healthy body where bad bacteria won't be able to live. You might have to kill off some of the bacteria using herbs or meds. However, the goal is not to kill all the bacteria, that's impossible. The goal is to become healthy. There's a difference. We're not sanitizing our bodies ... we are full of bacteria, most of it at safe levels ... the idea is for the body to get the bacteria to safe levels again.
For diet, check out Terry Wahls' TED talk. I found adding three cups of greens and three different colors of vegetables per day to be life-changing energy-wise. But ease into it if you're really sick .... even dietary changes can cause healing reactions.
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